Wiccan Church of Canada [Archive] - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

Ptah

December 26th, 2005, 10:41 AM

I have had a run in with a couple who claimed to be HP, HPs of the WCC in Texas. The supposed High Priest was a published author. I am not going to give his name or publisher, so no one runs out to buy any of his books.

My story:

I donated a building, spent my money and built a pagan community center in the greater Dallas/Fw area. Upon completion, after we opened, he tried to wrest control of it through political maneuvering, outright lies, slander and other devious means. Niether he nor his wife ever did a lick of work in the community center but both thought they deserved the platform. I found them both to be petty, coniving and power hungry. That is my experience with some of the group's supposed elite. I don't know, nor have I met, any other people in or around the WCC. These two may have been kicked out or assumed titles they weren't due but I do know that any time there was any kind of drama within the greater pagan community they were behind it, letting everyone know they were "HP&HPs of the WCC". When I complained to Tammara and the WCC in Canada about them, (multiple times) I was completely ignored.

Just a note, as in life there are always people who would use other's spiritual search to further their own means. This does not mean that those associated with these two or even their teachers are responsible for their actions. As a teacher myself, I realize that regardless what you teach others they can pervert it and even use your good name and reputation to gain authority over others. I can't say but I suspect this is the case here...at least, I hope it is.

Sometimes the truth isn't pleasant to hear so before I get censured for this, I truly wrote it in the most respectful way possible.

Morgandria

December 26th, 2005, 11:06 AM

Shamengoddess: Yes, the WCC has a fairly open structure. They consider Blue Star to be a "sister tradition" to their own, and there is priesthood from many other traditions that participates in its' events.

Ptah: I'm not surprised Lady Tamarra ignored you. I can tell you that yes, your Texans are likely not HP&HPs of the WCC - there is currently only three 3rd degrees in the WCC, two of whom are Lady Tamarra and her husband, and one 2nd degree...and it's been that way for a very long time.

There is a very disturbing trend within the WCC that people attain their 1st degree initiation, and then just...bugger off. There's really only a few people running the classes and circles, and (IMO) there's really only a few people who know what they're doing. Someone I know who is active in the WCC has been trying to get her 2nd degree now for 15 years. It speaks to me that this sort of thing shows that the power structure is very uneven...either people can't fufill the work they need to do for their higher initiations, for whatever reason, or the high priesthood is unwilling to elevate others to their ranks.

I have always wondered what the people in Texas were doing...that's taking the Odyssean tradition a long way from home. I also notice, however, that they're mentioned nowhere on the WCC website, anywhere, and if they were officially members of the tradition, you'd think they'd be listed as a temple. So...yeah.

Xerenity

December 26th, 2005, 11:12 AM

I have never had any experience with the WCC. I have inquired with some friends that have had contact with them and I was ordered not to talk to them at all. It was explained to me that they are open to new comers only if they are willing to bend to their objectives and ideals.
Another friend is living with one of the HP of WCC and He has dropped off the map. I use to visit with him a few times a month and talk, now I have yet to hear from him. Maybe just a concidence by it still makes you go HUM???

Toby Stimpson

December 26th, 2005, 11:25 AM

Hello,

Well, I can't much say I have had much experiance with the WCC apart from a few emails sent to them and a few visits to their store in Toronto. I have known friedns who have warned me about them...and I have heard rumours again, of what Morgandria was talking about. I heard also, unofficially, that disgruntled members in Durham Region's main groups pulled out of the WCC and closed the branch up in Oshawa becasue of just those things. I still want to attend a few of their classes and see what they are about though for myself, but I must admit of what I have seen of the more influential groups in Toronto, the WCC tends to believe it's self the most powerful...well, atleast Caer Avalon organizes Paganpride...what does WCC do??

Namaste

Tobias

Morgandria

December 26th, 2005, 12:35 PM

I don't know if there was ever an Oshawa temple, officially - I do know, however, that the Ottawa temple did close its doors in that manner.

Toby Stimpson

December 26th, 2005, 02:09 PM

hmmm, I didnt hear anything about the Ottawa temple...Is the Hamilton group still alive and kicking, I don't hear anything abou that group from any friends down in Hamilton anymore.

Namaste

Tobias

Morgandria

December 26th, 2005, 03:10 PM

Hamilton had shut down for a while, but it is still going. However, they rely on priesthood from Toronto to come and run the rituals for a portion of the time.

Crystal Raven

December 26th, 2005, 06:38 PM

last I knew Hamilton was still up and running under Daniel, but that was a year or so ago.
Also, Caer Avalon no longer does Pagan Pride Day, as of this year or last, not sure which.

Crystal Raven

December 26th, 2005, 06:39 PM

last I knew Hamilton was still up and running under Daniel, but that was a year or so ago.
Also, Caer Avalon no longer does Pagan Pride Day, as of this year or last, not sure which.

Toby Stimpson

December 26th, 2005, 06:50 PM

oh really? wow I didnt even hear about that...I unfortunatly could not go to Pagan Pride, too far away (Im down on Lakeshore in Etobicoke...) but I went to Pagan Proud! It was an ok event, but I did not see anyone from the WCC there, non at all...I did meet a girl by the name of Purple though *nods* So why aren't Caer Avalon in charge anymore, or did they pass the torch?

Tobias

Crystal Raven

December 26th, 2005, 07:10 PM

So why aren't Caer Avalon in charge anymore, or did they pass the torch?

Sorry, I would not consider myself to be at liberty to say...but you could contact one of the Tribe through their site
http://www.geocities.com/caeravalon/

Toby Stimpson

December 27th, 2005, 11:54 AM

haha, well if it is for private reasons, who am I to ask them...just idle gossip I suppose. It is a shame, I know they worked very hard, and were very proud when they were featured in that 360 Vision segment for the Vision network.

Namaste

Tobias

Zebi

December 27th, 2005, 11:46 PM

I don't know if there was ever an Oshawa temple, officially

The Oshawa Temple was officially a part of the Wiccan Church of Canada. The temple opened in September 1999 and closed sometime in 2002. I occasionally attended open rituals, but was never a member of the Odyssean tradition. At the time the temple closed, I was unable to regularly attend open rituals, so I don't know the reasons for the Temple's closing.

The Oshawa Temple has a website here (http://wccoshawa.tripod.com), which has an official statement from its steering committee.

Arion

December 28th, 2005, 04:45 PM

I went with a friend to one of their workshops, and it was okay... it was on some kind of Celtic alphabet, so not the most exciting topic, but I'm sure it would have been more intriguing if it had been on deity pantheons or sabbats or something. I'd really like to go to one of their rituals, but as a teenager living with my parents, its not so easy to disappear on a sunday night for a few hours to do so. The FAQs page on their website is VERY informative though, i think i learned more about Wicca from that site than any book I've read, not so much the how-to, but the "why" and "what". I liek the Occult shop underneath the temple, too. Over all, I'd say it's a good thing to have close by.

Toby Stimpson

December 28th, 2005, 08:39 PM

LOL, the ancient celtic alphabets like Ogham aren't interesting eh Purplepanther?

MHM, I thought there was one in Oshawa, it seems to be a thing with the WCC...temples closing down...but albeit for me to say anything. I have met Tamarra before and she's a lovely woman, well from what I have seen...although I must say the Occult Shop isn't my most fav place to go...the books are soemthing that other stores dont have in TO but for jewellary and crystals, I go to chinatown :D. Oh and a small place uyp on the danforth called erm, "Gifts of the Earth" near Chester stn I think.

Namaste

Tobias

Arion

December 29th, 2005, 05:28 PM

The Ogham!! That was it. NO, I didn't find it to interesting, personally :p

Nacken

December 29th, 2005, 06:54 PM

As for the Hamilton WCC, I believe that it might have closed due to the illness and passing on of their HPs or Maiden. I'm not sure which.
Personally I feel that there is a place in society for a public form of Wicca. I happen to be in a coven which is deep underground, but I don't feel that this is the only way to be.
Another person mentioned that a basic goal of the WCC is to have marry and bury rights as Wiccans. As the law works in Ontario, a religious group must have been in existence for 25 years or more before getting recognition. Another avenue is being explored and licenced Wiccan clergy ought to be a reality within a year. It has nothing to do with the WCC, but Richard and Tamarra are aware of it and have decided to cooperate.
My main problem with the WCC is that their teachers and clergy seem to feel that it is acceptable to engage in sexually inappropriate relationships with their students. I have come across numerous instances of this in TO and Hamilton. Initially I thought that it was just rumour, but I have heard it many times and have met with former members and heard their stories.:sick:

Morgandria

December 30th, 2005, 11:49 AM

Nacken, I have heard that as well, from various parties.

Both my HPS and her 2nd have worked extensively with the WCC and Tamarra. Our 2nd actually renounced her Odyssean initiation and burned her cord; her experience was that bad. I have heard many stories from both of them, which I will not repeat here, but have given me the very clear idea that they were both burned very badly by the WCC as an organization, and by Tamarra and Richard as people.

I can't say I've had an overwhelmingly bad or good experience with the WCC. My times there were up and down. I simply in the end chose the people I enjoy being with more, and it wasn't at the WCC.

Cyruss

January 6th, 2006, 01:38 AM

I just wish I could convince the James' to sell me their goodies! LOL I could do better than 40K...

Morgandria

January 6th, 2006, 02:56 AM

What goodies are you speaking of? :eyebrow:

Cyruss

January 6th, 2006, 06:53 AM

Oh I can't even remember what all they have now. The BAM, some BOS manuscripts and such, and whatever else they got from Ripleys.

Nacken

January 6th, 2006, 10:42 AM

Cyruss

January 6th, 2006, 12:51 PM

This is proabably off topic, but since I'm replying to the OP that's ok =)

From what I understand things were somewhat hunky dory and the James' were pretty accomodating until low and behold, someone visited to view the material, and upon their leaving it was found that certain pages of certain manuscripts had "disappeared".

So if you want to see the goodies now you better be writing a book or something.

Nacken

January 9th, 2006, 11:11 PM

The WCC is simply the public organization of the Odyssean Tradition of Wicca. It is called a church simply because they have been spending the last 20+ years trying to achieve legal status as a religious organization in Canada.

It is not like a normal coven, no. It is a public group - and because of that, they have classes for the new members, and members do not have to become clergy. The priesthood that runs the public circles and classes have chosen to become so. This works well, for some people, who are not interested in becoming priesthood but still wish to follow a Wiccan path.
.

I just found out tonight that the WCC has lost the race to have Wiccan clergy with marry and bury rights. There are now 5 Wiccan clergy who have been recognized by the government of Ontario. Because the laws are fairly similar in other provinces, Wiccan clergy will probably be recognized soon. I believe that they will be focusing on BC next. Within the next few weeks a notice will be put up at WitchesVox about it. I'm sure that there will be criteria for ordination, but we will learn more about this when the web page is up. From what I understand, they don't want to flood the market with licenced Wiccan clergy so they will be selective. I'm not sure how Richard and Tamarra will feel about it.
The main thing is that we will be able to get legal handfastings by Wiccan priests and priestesses.
:)

Morgandria

January 10th, 2006, 12:56 AM

Honestly, I think that it's nice people *won't* have to go through the WCC at all to get their legal handfastings done.

I hope it gets announced soon, and we can get some details on it - if it happens soon enough, mebbe my high priest and priestess can get sorted out for our handfasting in September. :D

Silverfire Darkmoon

February 13th, 2006, 04:40 PM

No-one on this forum seems to know what's happening in Hamilton. I do. I go each and every week, so here's the lowdown:
Hamilton is very much alive and kicking. We're having a bit of difficulty with clergy, because there is essentially no-one around in Hamilton except George, the High Priest of the Hamilton branch, and he has responsibilities of his own. Also, his partner Morgan, who was our High Priestess, passed away at the end of November 2005. Her loss is deeply felt still. I never got to know her well, but she was a remarkable woman from what I knew of her.
We rely a bit more on clergy imported from the Toronto temple, as I said, which I don't really like, but as has been said, there is a curious tendency for people to get their first and then vanish. I know we have a few people who are very close to getting their First, which will be an enormous relief for everyone because then we can have more people qualified to teach. We've got a few Neophytes in town, and they do their share.
We've had some trouble with the temple officers over the past year because of people being people, but as changeover is happening this weekend that will probably be sorted out.
There's usually twenty or so people for ritual and a lot of people for class lately, and there's a core group of ten or so who are there without fail each and every week. Classes are usually taught by our imported clergy, but occasionally random regulars will do a class - we've had a class on Greek mythology, and I taught on the factual witch hunts this summer, and will be teaching magical herbalism and grimoires eventually.
I have my own share of problems with the WCC. The whole Third Degree thing bothers me because there are only three of them for the entire Church. Seconds I'm not sure about. There seems to be a creepy cult of celebrity around Lady Tamarra, but I don't think that's her fault - people sometimes seem to be a bit too deferential to the priesthood at times. The impression I get from her is of someone who's very well-grounded and well-educated, who's had a lot of life experience. I do not know her very well at all, but I think she's pretty interesting. Richard I have no idea about. Every time I've seen him he seems to be off in his own little world.
The Hamilton temple suffers from an excess of terrible jokes that are taken to extremes. In the past this was penalized with a pun jar, which was lost during the handmaiden mixup. I am working on reinstating it. It gets to be too much.
On the whole, I like the WCC. It's what I look forward to every week, because I've made a lot of friends there (as well as my first girlfriend). it has its negative aspects, but I'm trying to become more involved with it. I'd like to see the Hamilton temple less dependent on Toronto priesthood, because Toronto is NOT part of Hamilton's community. Those who want a teacher must travel to Toronto to do so, an idea which I deem utterly insane. We have a very strong feeling of community here at the Hamilton temple, which I love. There IS a support network in place here.
I would like to see some of the things the old-timers talk about revitalized. Our besom has a list of nameplates with names of previous handmaidens engraved on them which is sorely out of date. Our community rock needs a better carrying bag for ease of travel (us pedestrians suffer when we take the rock for the week). There was once a men's group, I hear. I would like to see more young people there - I'm the only regular male under 35-40 years old; me and my (ex)girlfriend are the only ones in their early twenties and it's rather strange being the only young ones there. We have our share of flakes and weirdos, which we can't really do anything about. We deal with it.
And that's pretty much the Hamilton temple of the Wiccan Church of Canada.

Nacken

February 13th, 2006, 05:02 PM

Thanks SD. Its good to hear from someone who is on the spot. I knew parts of this but this gives people a better fairly non-judgemental picture of the WCC Hamilton.

Stang

March 6th, 2007, 12:49 AM

The Wiccan Church of Canada operated a temple in Ottawa from 1985 to 2000. The temple was originally started by someone from the Toronto temple but was later run by local Odyssean neophytes and initiates. During the 15 year period the Ottawa temple operated, various people came and went, with two Ottawa people reaching the second degree level of the Odyssean Tradition and four others reached the first degree level. It's my understanding that none of those people are currently involved with the Wiccan Church of Canada, and that at least some of them burned their cords and books. However, I also know that there are or have been some people in Eastern Ontario and Quebec who've claimed to be Odyssean initiates but apparently are not.

The Ottawa temple introduced a lot of people to Paganism, and taught some of them how to do ritual properly, but many temple regulars seem to have left it under unhappy terms. Today, the Ottawa community seems to be much more diverse, with Gardnerians, eclectic Wiccans, ceremonialists, Druids, shamans and women's Goddess groups. And although there are some networks, brunches, etc., the community seems to be fairly fragmented, partly because there aren't any really charismatic leaders who could bring people together. Perhaps that's a good thing.

As for the rumours about Richard and Tamarra, I have heard them, but I've also heard negative rumours about a lot of other Pagans. Who knows which ones are true? I do know that a lot of people seem to only tolerate Richard because he's Tamarra's husband. But she must be getting quite elderly now, and I imagine that once she retires, the Wiccan Church temple in Toronto will also disappear. I don't think that the Odyssean Tradition has produced any third degree initiates, even in Toronto, for at least 20 years. So I don't think you can call it a Wiccan tradition in the usual sense. It seems to be more of a training program for people who want to do public ritual. If someone is interested in exploring the mystery tradition aspect of Wicca by moving through the degree system, they should probably stick to the Alexandrian or Gardnerian traditions.

Morgandria

March 6th, 2007, 12:32 PM

Chances are that the tradition will pass on to Janice Cardie, who is listed on their website as being their only other 3rd degree. They have recently elevated a couple more people to 2nd as well.

*shrugs* It is what it is, and will end up being whatever it will be.

Stang

March 6th, 2007, 04:55 PM

I can't say that I ever understood the dynamics of the Toronto temple, even when there was still a temple in Ottawa and some Toronto people (mostly Richard and Tamarra) used to visit. I was mostly trying to explain the history of the Wiccan Church of Canada in Ottawa, as I remember it, since that hadn't been addressed by anyone.

However, when so much time and energy goes into teaching basic classes on material that's readily available in books, and performing weekly public rituals, I wonder how much advanced training is going on, even in Toronto. That could explain the high dropout rate among the initiates. Of course, Tamarra may be more interested in providing a place for newcomers to experience a Pagan ritual than building a lasting Wiccan tradition. I don't really know, and it doesn't really matter to me, since I have no intention of ever living in Toronto.

Sabriel MoonStar

March 6th, 2007, 07:14 PM

The website really isn't all that current in terms of who is where it seems. I know they had another lady attain 3rd degree. I'm pretty sure her name is Nicole, the lovely lady with the interesting dreads. They seem to have a variety of people leading ritual and running the store now, so I think that after Lady Tamarra can no longer run the temple it will still survive. It may not be all that it is today but I think they will still have Sunday ritual, Tuesday class and run the store.

Not that I am privy to what goes on in the high levels. I only pop in and out health permitting. But this is what I have gleaned from public announcments and observation.

Really, Toronto can't afford to see another Occult/Metaphysical shop close down. We lost Wiccashoppe last year and Eternal Moments closed down it's Bloor St location. It's getting hard to buy supplies up here. It's crazy that some things are so hard to find in such a large city.

Silverfire Darkmoon

March 7th, 2007, 11:20 PM

So far as I know, Nicole still has her Second. I haven't seen her for a few weeks but I'm sure somebody would have mentioned it.
In regards to the amount of people who get to around Neophyte and First Degree, I've been told that people tend to suffer burnout and drop away for a while, occasionally but not always resurfacing later. I know for a fact that this has happened in Hamilton, where we have no actual WCC priesthood per se, and instead import clergy from Toronto or have our lovely Mara and honourary priest George do ritual. We still miss the late Lady Morgan. No-one could ever replace her in the hearts of many, I am sure.
So far as I know, Janice is still the only other 3rd Degree aside from Richard and Tamarra. I guess she'll end up taking over when Tamarra wants to let go, but who'd be her priest I have no idea.
What goes on in the Toronto temple I have no idea, as I rely on what I hear from my teacher and bits and pieces that people let drop.
We are getting more Neophytes in Hamilton.. One of ours had to go on leave of absence due to life happening, but we've had two recently minted and might be getting a new one soon, from what I hear. We have our core group, and that's really the important part ^^ The prison ministry might be picking up again as well. Our fundraiser has been asked to take that role.
Funny, last time I posted in this thread it was the week before changeover, and now it is again! How very odd.
Am I the only one here who makes a point of going?

înnerpoînt

March 8th, 2007, 10:35 AM

While not having met Tamarra and James yet, personally, I have passed communication with her and am on two other groups with James. After a while, you start to get a sense of the person behind the words, particularly when the words and the outlook they express stay consistent. Janice, I have met, personally, and Circled with - and I really love her. If she represents the future of the WCC, it will be in good hands.

Nicole, I have talked with a couple of times by phone and several times through email and message boards. If she is a prime representative of what the WCC is doing, I'm definitely not seeing a problem, yet.

All in all, of the ones that I've met and spoken with from the WCC, or are associated with the WCC, I've been suitably impressed. I keep forgetting about George (and if someone wants to forward my apologies, I'd be forever grateful - things just keep coming up and I can't catch up to myself). I've got a market here for some of the items that the Hamilton group makes and I've yet to find out exactly what, how much, and how many can be sent. I'll see one of the interested parties at the end of this month... and I'm sure that she'll ask - so I can fulfill my obligation, then.

I've been trying to get up to Toronto for the last couple of years. It seems like this coming July might be the prime time to make concrete plans. (For those who know what's going on then, you'll understand.) Hopefully, some things will come to a conclusion here and we can find the time to make it up that way.

Sabriel MoonStar

March 8th, 2007, 01:09 PM

Am I the only one here who makes a point of going?

I go to the Toronto Temple when I can. I make it a goal to go every week, but life has a way to getting in the way of things like schedules and plans. ^^' And the summer location is so far from my home that I have a tendency not to go as much in the summer.

I was pretty sure Nicole got her 3rd degree when her husband got his 1st. I may have misunderstood it, and they were announcing her 2nd, but I was positive she was a 3rd. But as I said before I only know what's announced during ritual and and by the Summoner.

If I wasn't so shy around other Wiccans I'd walk up and just ask her on Sunday. _inabox_

Stormcat

March 8th, 2007, 10:47 PM

If I wasn't so shy around other Wiccans I'd walk up and just ask her on Sunday. _inabox_

You could. It has been my experience that Nicole is very approachable.

Silverfire Darkmoon

March 8th, 2007, 11:12 PM

Yes, yes she is. All the priestesses I know are really approachable - Erinhilt (wonderful), Claudia (great), Lynna (amazing), Nicole (fun!), Stephanie (effing AMAZING!), Tamarra...they're all cool as cool things.
Some of the neophytes are pretty awesome, too *cough*Mara*cough. Karen is really fun, she and I can do the entire-conversation-in-Simpsons-quotes thing ^^

Sabriel MoonStar

March 9th, 2007, 09:36 AM

Oh no doubt about it that they are very approachable and kind. They are wonderful people. But before the WCC I didn't really know any other Wiccans. Back in my home town many people are still in the closet. It was very difficult being an "out" Pagan there and is one of the many reasons I moved to Toronto. Even when I visit my in-laws there are many problems caused by how open I am with my religion, among other things. (And by open I mean I don't pretend to be Christian and wear a modest pentacle.)

I've had a very rough past in general when it comes to family and trust. And that has coloured my ability to interact with people in general beyond what one expects outside of work and with acquaintances. I have my circle of close friends and I have a hard time reaching out past it.

That's why I love the internet. I feel safer here. It has allowed me to have a bit more of a social life. And if I talk with people online I tend to be more comfortable when I meet them in real life (with certain safe guards of course.)

I know that this problem has held me back in my development on my path. There is only so much books can teach you. And part of the reason I have never really seeked out a coven is probably because of my issues with family like situations. But going to the WCC has helped me. It helped me with my awkwardness about speaking about religion in general outside of my home (I grew up Atheist) and helped me feel safer in such environments. I really do enjoy going there, even though some days I really don't chat with other people too much before ritual.

I know that's kind of long, but I didn't want people to think I was shy at the WCC because of the people there. I'm shy at the WCC because some of the people in my life before I met them were jerks.:crazyman:

Stormcat

March 9th, 2007, 12:21 PM

I've had a very rough past in general when it comes to family and trust. And that has coloured my ability to interact with people in general beyond what one expects outside of work and with acquaintances. I have my circle of close friends and I have a hard time reaching out past it.

That's why I love the internet. I feel safer here. It has allowed me to have a bit more of a social life. And if I talk with people online I tend to be more comfortable when I meet them in real life (with certain safe guards of course.)

I know that this problem has held me back in my development on my path. There is only so much books can teach you. And part of the reason I have never really seeked out a coven is probably because of my issues with family like situations. But going to the WCC has helped me. It helped me with my awkwardness about speaking about religion in general outside of my home (I grew up Atheist) and helped me feel safer in such environments. I really do enjoy going there, even though some days I really don't chat with other people too much before ritual.

Been there.. done that.. Spent years wallowing in fear, guilt and self denial. In the end, safe, as you have noted, does not net you any growth, and only bystriving outside your comfort zones will progress commence. Take a chance and talk to someone. Yes, they might let you down, but then, you might be very much surprised to the otherwise.

Stormcat

March 9th, 2007, 12:25 PM

Innerpoint, I see you've used my artwork for your icon. I'm honored. :)

KeaErisdottir

March 9th, 2007, 12:32 PM

Ptah: I'm not surprised Lady Tamarra ignored you. I can tell you that yes, your Texans are likely not HP&HPs of the WCC - there is currently only three 3rd degrees in the WCC, two of whom are Lady Tamarra and her husband, and one 2nd degree...and it's been that way for a very long time.

Your information is incorrect. There are only three active Odyssean 3rds. There have been at least 5. There are currently several active 2nds.

There is a very disturbing trend within the WCC that people attain their 1st degree initiation, and then just...bugger off. There's really only a few people running the classes and circles, and (IMO) there's really only a few people who know what they're doing. Someone I know who is active in the WCC has been trying to get her 2nd degree now for 15 years. It speaks to me that this sort of thing shows that the power structure is very uneven...either people can't fufill the work they need to do for their higher initiations, for whatever reason, or the high priesthood is unwilling to elevate others to their ranks.

Nope, just means that their standards are high for entrance into the priesthood, and higher for entry into the high priesthood. For instance, you must successfully get someone else to 1st before you can even attempt going for 2nd. As teaching is a significant component of the the mission of the tradition's public face, it is only logical that they would expect prospective 2nds to prove that they can complete training for initiation.

I have always wondered what the people in Texas were doing...that's taking the Odyssean tradition a long way from home. I also notice, however, that they're mentioned nowhere on the WCC website, anywhere, and if they were officially members of the tradition, you'd think they'd be listed as a temple. So...yeah.

I know who the Odysseans in Texas are, and I am not aware that the initiates down there were ever elevated to degrees beyond 1st. There is no sanctioned WCC Temple outside of Canada, because the bylaws of the Church specifically says 'in Canada'.

KeaErisdottir

March 9th, 2007, 12:42 PM

Yes they bought up a lot of documents from early Gardenerian history including at least one of the copies of Gerald's BOS. I'm not sure if it was the A, B, or C text, but they don't allow anyone to examine the material without a generous contribution. Well, at least we know that the materials are safe and where they are.

I have viewed those materials a number of times, and at no point was there any discussion of contributions of any sort. The Jameses do, however do limit access to the materials of people who can prove their lineage, since certain documents are considered oathbound material and Richard and Tamarra have chosen to respect that.

I am also going to suggest that before you post 'facts' that you check them. The conditions for viewing the archive are readily available from Richard, and you will find that the strictures are not what you 'heard'.

înnerpoînt

March 9th, 2007, 01:08 PM

Innerpoint, I see you've used my artwork for your icon. I'm honored. :)Yes. As you can see, I saved it when you sent it to me. There was something about that rendition that 'spoke' to me and I've kept it safely filed away ever since.

înnerpoînt

March 9th, 2007, 01:41 PM

Sabriel MoonStar

March 9th, 2007, 02:47 PM

Been there.. done that.. Spent years wallowing in fear, guilt and self denial. In the end, safe, as you have noted, does not net you any growth, and only bystriving outside your comfort zones will progress commence. Take a chance and talk to someone. Yes, they might let you down, but then, you might be very much surprised to the otherwise.

I've been working on it, that's for sure. But Rome wasn't built in a day and my self confidence won't be either. I'm putting it together piece by piece and attending ritual at the WCC has helped that along. I do talk to people there, but I am a bit more shy then I would be in my circle of friends or even at work. (Though I tend to come off as shy at work too).

I guess it's more about contrast. I am much more open and talkative in settings I find more comfortable. There are a few people I have talked to enough there to be comfortable with, but given that Nicole is a Priestess she does tend to be busier then most people there. I tend to see more of her at the store then when everyone is hanging out before ritual.

Stormcat

March 9th, 2007, 03:47 PM

I've been working on it, that's for sure. But Rome wasn't built in a day and my self confidence won't be either. I'm putting it together piece by piece and attending ritual at the WCC has helped that along. I do talk to people there, but I am a bit more shy then I would be in my circle of friends or even at work. (Though I tend to come off as shy at work too).

Knowing oneself is 3/4 of the battle, I think. You can't fix what you don't recognize. Keep at it, and the rewards will be worth it, IMO. And the store is where I did all my talking to Nicole at.

Silverfire Darkmoon

March 10th, 2007, 12:22 AM

I have viewed those materials a number of times, and at no point was there any discussion of contributions of any sort. The Jameses do, however do limit access to the materials of people who can prove their lineage, since certain documents are considered oathbound material and Richard and Tamarra have chosen to respect that.

I am also going to suggest that before you post 'facts' that you check them. The conditions for viewing the archive are readily available from Richard, and you will find that the strictures are not what you 'heard'.

I'd sort of like to know where the idea that they'd charge people to have a look at those materials is from. That seems kind of, oh, I don't know, completely counter to everything I know about Tamarra and Richard.
Wretched pagan politics *grumbles*

Stang

March 10th, 2007, 09:55 AM

Your information is incorrect. There are only three active Odyssean 3rds. There have been at least 5. There are currently several active 2nds.

..........

According to the Wiccan Church website, there are only three active seconds. And if the Daniel mentioned on their website is the same one who used to visit Ottawa occasionally, he's been stuck at the second degree level since the eighties.

I know that there've been several other seconds and perhaps a few dozen firsts who've dropped out over the years, so perhaps the Wiccan Church isn't meeting the spiritual needs of a lot of its initiates. This is just a guess, but I suspect that the ones who stay are primarily those who see their spirituality in terms of providing a weekly Sunday service for the general public, in much the same manner as Christian ministers do. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it isn't necessarily what a lot of people are looking for when they decide to devote their lives to a Pagan path.

Of course, I don't know what's going on in the Toronto or Hamilton Pagan communities. But I do know that the Hamilton temple has been around for a very long time, under various leaders, and yet people's comments in this thread suggest that it still hasn't gotten on its own feet yet. And I doubt if there'd be much enthusiasm in the Ottawa Pagan community for re-opening a public temple here. Private and semi-public groups that have a screening process seem to work better and be able to do more in depth work, mainly because it's easier to screen out the flaming lunatics. In a public temple format, there's really no way to do that. And public rituals have to be suitable for newbies. So perhaps the public temple approach will never be more than a gateway into the Pagan scene. But, given the number of Pagan brunches, Meet and Greets, festivals and other ways to meet people and check out the Pagan scene, is it still necessary? Just wondering.

Sabriel MoonStar

March 10th, 2007, 11:36 AM

I think having a public temple is a wonderful thing. Some of us just aren't ready for a coven yet, or some of us just can't find one. And who knows, I might just find a coven or group through the WCC.

It's also a nice place for people who don't want to be initiated to find out what we are all about and see for themselves what a ritual is like. My husband is agnostic but likes to attend ritual with me at the WCC. Even if I did join a coven I would still go to the WCC so he can still be part of my spiritual path. The WCC has also had university students attend ritual as part of their courses. And I'm sure a ton of people have walked through the temple doors using the WCC as a resource to see if Wicca is right for them.

As for festivals and meet and greets, I don't think they have the educational value of attending a full blown ritual. My husband gets a whole lot more out of weekly ritual then he did at Pagan Pride Day.

As for the rituals themselves I find them very meaningful and sometimes they go right to the core of some deep issues. Just because they are "newbie" friendly doesn't make them any less powerful.

No one system will work for everyone. I think our community needs a variety of approaches to grow and prosper.

KeaErisdottir

March 10th, 2007, 12:07 PM

According to the Wiccan Church website, there are only three active seconds. And if the Daniel mentioned on their website is the same one who used to visit Ottawa occasionally, he's been stuck at the second degree level since the eighties.

If you knew the circumstances, which you clearly do not, then the reasons would be clear. The Odysseans do not advance anyone who fails to meet the requirements. It's a firm rule, and one I have long agreed with.

I know that there've been several other seconds and perhaps a few dozen firsts who've dropped out over the years, so perhaps the Wiccan Church isn't meeting the spiritual needs of a lot of its initiates.

Or, as was the case with a lot of traditional groups in the strict oathbound days, most 1st degrees simply didn't do the work to advance beyond that level. This is generally the case with the traditions that have any kind of rigid requirements for advancement.

This is just a guess, but I suspect that the ones who stay are primarily those who see their spirituality in terms of providing a weekly Sunday service for the general public, in much the same manner as Christian ministers do. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it isn't necessarily what a lot of people are looking for when they decide to devote their lives to a Pagan path.

You are correct that it is a guess, and the level of information is rather low. I know a lot of the Odyssean priesthood and the reasons why people don't advance have more to do with whert they are in terms of meeting the requirements, and if they have done the work. The tradition itself is seperate from the church, and it is, as far as I can tell, as BTW as they come. This means you don't see 'time in grade' advancement, and the interface with the public ministry places the emphasis on different things. However, the big requirement for going from 1st to 2nd is still based in part on advancing a student to intiation, and in a trad that typically takes 3-5 years to achieve a 1st, with all the students who drop off the vine in the process, it is sometimes difficult to advance a student so that you may advance yourself.

But I do know that the Hamilton temple has been around for a very long time, under various leaders, and yet people's comments in this thread suggest that it still hasn't gotten on its own feet yet.

Hamilton has had a history of melting down on occasion. I've seen 3 or 4 sets of ostensible local leadership melt down and disappear over time. Perhaps the most tragic of those was the fellow who I believe succumbed to AIDS, and having worked with him though he was a good priest and a bright light. He simply ran out of time. Other leaders have come through and burned themselves out in one way or another--it was really at the point when Geroge and Morgan stepped up to the plate, amd Mara really started shining as a leader herself, that Hamilton started to really come together.

And, from the activity on the Hamilton pagan list, I see a lot of potnetial, once a couple of the eternal neophytes achieve their 1st.

Silverfire Darkmoon

March 10th, 2007, 01:36 PM

According to the Wiccan Church website, there are only three active seconds. And if the Daniel mentioned on their website is the same one who used to visit Ottawa occasionally, he's been stuck at the second degree level since the eighties.
You do realize that the official WCC site hasn't been updated in a dog's age?
I know that there've been several other seconds and perhaps a few dozen firsts who've dropped out over the years, so perhaps the Wiccan Church isn't meeting the spiritual needs of a lot of its initiates. This is just a guess, but I suspect that the ones who stay are primarily those who see their spirituality in terms of providing a weekly Sunday service for the general public, in much the same manner as Christian ministers do. Not that there's anything wrong with that. But it isn't necessarily what a lot of people are looking for when they decide to devote their lives to a Pagan path.
Considering that the WCC is a *community*, and the priesthood is *serving* that community, I disagree with this. You're implying that weekly services aren't the best of things, in spite of your caveat. I'm sure that a lot of people *are* looking for a coven to join, however it'd be easier to find an honest lawyer. Covens that have any staying power are, to my understanding, closed groups. Should people be denied Wicca because there's no-one around to practice it with? Hell, no.
I see my participation in the WCC very much one of *service*. I want to be a Priest someday so I can *serve* both the Gods and the community that has been, given, and done so very much for me.
Of course, I don't know what's going on in the Toronto or Hamilton Pagan communities.
Then don't shoot your mouth off about them.
But I do know that the Hamilton temple has been around for a very long time, under various leaders, and yet people's comments in this thread suggest that it still hasn't gotten on its own feet yet.
Then obviously you haven't been reading what I've said here. The Hamilton temple is not a large temple by any means; the people who come each and every week number fewer than ten. We are very much up on our own feet, otherwise we'd have collapsed ages ago.
Private and semi-public groups that have a screening process seem to work better and be able to do more in depth work, mainly because it's easier to screen out the flaming lunatics. In a public temple format, there's really no way to do that.
Obviously you have never heard of what a good Summoner is supposed to do? We have had our share of crazies and they've always worked themselves out. We have our ways. If you don't want someone who's a known troublemaker to attend, you make it obvious to that person and then, miraculously, they probably won't come. I've seen it done around three times.
And public rituals have to be suitable for newbies.
So I guess the Hekate invocation I once attended at public Circle in Toronto was for newbies?
So perhaps the public temple approach will never be more than a gateway into the Pagan scene. But, given the number of Pagan brunches, Meet and Greets, festivals and other ways to meet people and check out the Pagan scene, is it still necessary? Just wondering.
If you've ever seen how a group like the WCC can provide community and support for its members, I really, really wonder how you could say that.

I also agree pretty much with what Kea said in regards to the training process.

Sabriel MoonStar

March 10th, 2007, 02:20 PM

I'm sure that a lot of people *are* looking for a coven to join, however it'd be easier to find an honest lawyer.

It's so true for this area. The Pagan community here seems to be quite hidden.

I'd also like to add that without the WCC we wouldn't have one of Toronto's finest (and still open) occult shops. The Occult Shop has a wonderful selection of, well everything. The new statues are very drool worthy and the incense can't be beat. I can't get to sleep without a stick of their wonderful lavender incense. They are also very reasonable priced.

Stang

March 10th, 2007, 02:29 PM

....................
I see my participation in the WCC very much one of *service*. I want to be a Priest someday so I can *serve* both the Gods and the community that has been, given, and done so very much for me.
...........................

I also agree pretty much with what Kea said in regards to the training process.

Good luck with that. And let me know in a few years whether you still have the same sense of enthusiasm. Although you might want to talk to some of the people in your area who dropped out of the Odyssean/Wiccan Church system, just to get their perspective on things.

Stang

March 10th, 2007, 03:09 PM

If you knew the circumstances, which you clearly do not, then the reasons would be clear. The Odysseans do not advance anyone who fails to meet the requirements. It's a firm rule, and one I have long agreed with.
........

So, are you confirming that it's the same individual who's been active in the Wiccan Church for 20 years while still remaining at the second degree level? And is it true, as I've been told, that the Odysseans haven't made any new thirds since the eighties? If so, I think that our local Al/Gard group is right in saying that the Odyssean tradition is just about doing public ritual, and not about experiencing the Wiccan mysteries.

Morgandria

March 10th, 2007, 04:11 PM

I am a member of a BTW coven, which suits me fine, and I certainly don't need to be told about the suitability of individuals for initation, or how long it takes to achieve degrees. That is not really my curiousity on the issue. It's more to the fact that they seem to lose a considerable number of initiates as active participants in their public rituals and classes after they've achieved their 1st.

I have seen this with my own eyes, since I used to coven with Lynna in her own private coven, and she always seemed somewhat frustrated and exhausted with the number of hats she was wearing or the ground she was covering. Priesthood willing to do the work for their public efforts seemed rather thin on the ground, leaving a few people to cover everything. Maybe that's the downfall of a private tradition that seems mostly to do public service.

It seems to me to be odd, since even if the priesthood or neophytes of our coven never advance farther, they don't leave us or stop participating.

Since my high priestess used to be an active member of the WCC as a 3rd, and one of our 2nds was previously a 1st in the Odyssean tradition. I trust both of them to speak truth to me about their experiences with the group; I do not believe either would lie to me. Perhaps I don't have the same perspective as some people in this discussion, but I certainly have my own, and it is equally as valid.

I will agree to disagree, and be done with it. The WCC is no longer a part of my path, and I am really not interested in debating its' validity - since nothing I say will change anyone's opinions or experience, and nothing anyone else can say will change my opinions or experience, it's moot. I added my two pennies already.

Stang

March 11th, 2007, 03:08 PM

.....................

Since my high priestess used to be an active member of the WCC as a 3rd
..............

Okay, this is one of those areas where I'm trying to separate fact from fiction. I've been told by some people that Richard and Tamarra only ever created three thirds, back in the eighties. That would be Janice Cardie, an old chap named Maurice who was very well liked but who died of some incurable disease, and another man who isn't listed on the current WCC website. But that can't be correct if your high priestess used to be active as a 3rd. And there's a woman in Ottawa whose disciples claim that she's an Odyssean third, although other people say that she was only ever a second.

I suppose the issue only really matters to peole who think that Wicca is about actually getting to experience the Mysteries, BTW style. Perhaps that isn't a priority for Odysseans, but in that case why the high dropout rate among trained members?

Morgandria

March 11th, 2007, 03:30 PM

Stang

March 11th, 2007, 05:45 PM

I never said she was a 3rd degree Odyssean. She is a 3rd degree Alexandrian, as well as a 3rd degree Gardnerian. Her degrees were accepted by Tamara and she was always treated as a 3rd degree while she worked with the WCC.

Okay, that clarifies that particular situation. You did say that she was active in the WCC as a third, not that she was an Odyssean third. I made the assumption because in the Ottawa temple, during at least part of its existence, only Odysseans ran things. Other traditions, including the local BTW groups, were invited in as guests to show the temple regulars how other traditions did things. The degree status of BTWs who led circles was recognized, but it was always made clear that they were visitors from another tradition. However, that may have been because some of the local BTW types didn't (and still don't) recognize the Odyssean tradition as BTW, and consider Wicca to be limited to BTW, so they didn't consider the Odysseans to be Wiccan.

arawn58

October 25th, 2007, 01:54 PM

"retired Odyssean" is Richard James' term for non-active Odyssean initiates.

On the question of how many Odyssean thirds there have been: I know that there were between five to six active thirds in the mid-1980's and only three active as of the late-1980's. I believe that two new thirds were elevated in the 1990's and only one of these remains active. One of the previous active thirds has passed on -- Maurice.

As for seconds: Many more seconds have existed over the years, but most have become inactive.

This is even more common in regards to firsts -- the majority of firsts initiated into the tradition are no longer active.

Likewise, most persons initiated as Neophytes, never receive their firsts and most eventually become inactive.

Therefore, most of the people who have been initiated into the Odyssean tradition, no longer are active within that tradition -- to be active, one must continue to provide service to one of the WCC temples.

As for the number of WCC temples: At its height in the early 1990's, there were four temples -- Toronto, Ottawa, Hamilton, and Kitchener-Waterloo with proto-temples in Brampton, Oshawa, and Montreal. At present, there are only two temples -- Toronto and Hamilton. When I first started with the WCC in hamilton, we had a solid core of about twenty people and at weekly rituals would bring in between thirty to forty persons, eighty or more for the sabbats.

I wont say that Odyssean training is superior to BTW training, it does focus more on teaching large public groups and running public rituals with less focus on personal religious development. The training system is also designed to foster commitment and loyalty to the WCC. And yes, as somebody already stated -- the average time it takes to go from dedicant to first degree since the early 1990's is five years (back in the eighties, this would be faster -- as there were not even a full years worth of public classes, fewer books to copy, and only one year-long Neophyte working to perform). Today, I think it would take about six years.

Hope that this helps in clarifying...

retired Odyssean

Tigerlily

May 12th, 2008, 06:43 PM

Silverfire Darkmoon

May 12th, 2008, 08:36 PM

Bringing up an old thread....

I want to start going to their rituals but I'm a little worried. Do I HAVE to participate? I think the first time, I'd just like to watch and get a feel for how they do things. And do I have to participate in the potlucks? To me, it seems like a hassle. I'm vegan and I doubt there would any vegan foods that others would bring and it will just be another awkward feeling left-out as a vegan moment. I'd rather avoid that.

Hi!
You do not have to participate in the ritual, if that's what you're asking. General participation in ritual is very simple - salute quarters and gods, drink the wine, do whatever the working is. No-one would expect you to do anything really unusual.
That said, in Hamilton mere observation is quite simple due to the layout of our current ritual space. I'm not sure that would work very well for an indoor ritual in Toronto, as their ritual room is pretty closed off from the rest of the building. Outdoors, they have a rather nice ritual space and you could easily sit outside the circle and watch what we do.
Ritual feast is only for Sabbats or other special occasions, and given the diversity of the community vegan/vegetarian food is almost always present, in my experience.
I'm not sure if you're in Hamilton or Toronto - if you let me know, I can send you to people who can answer questions for you and provide more information.

Arawn, if you feel like it (and see this, of course!) could you please PM me with some information about when you were around in Hamilton? I'm trying to find out more about the past history of my temple.

Standing by to answer more WCC questions, I remain,
James,
Fetch of the Hamilton Temple and Odyssean Neophyte

Tigerlily

May 12th, 2008, 09:12 PM

Thanks! I'll be attending the ones in Toronto. :)

Silverfire Darkmoon

June 1st, 2008, 12:29 PM

Thanks! I'll be attending the ones in Toronto. :)

I'm wondering if you ever ventured out to the Toronto temple, and how you liked it if you did?

Toby Stimpson

June 1st, 2008, 06:09 PM

James is quite close with the WCC.. He's been over to Tamara's house several times :)

Silverfire Darkmoon

June 3rd, 2008, 11:58 AM

James is quite close with the WCC.. He's been over to Tamara's house several times :)

Actually I think I've only been there three or four times. I can't quite recall.

It's a very interesting house, full of neat and lovely things. And their library....*swoon*

Tigerlily

July 10th, 2008, 02:30 PM

I'm wondering if you ever ventured out to the Toronto temple, and how you liked it if you did?

I'm still in PEI for the summer. I'm staying here longer than I thought. But when I do go to the temple, I'll let everyone know. :weirdsmil

NuyNyx

August 17th, 2008, 01:39 PM

I know it's a old thread... but I am a new member to this forum and what I have read here has been with me for days...

"
As for seconds: Many more seconds have existed over the years, but most have become inactive.

This is even more common in regards to firsts -- the majority of firsts initiated into the tradition are no longer active.

Likewise, most persons initiated as Neophytes, never receive their firsts and most eventually become inactive.

Therefore, most of the people who have been initiated into the Odyssean tradition, no longer are active within that tradition -- to be active, one must continue to provide service to one of the WCC temples.

The simple answer is burnout. Too much, too soon. That goes for the whole group. From wide eyed Dedicant begging to be Neophyted to the High Priesthood. Richard and Tamarra have given their lives to this work. From what I have seen it is their primary mission in life. They expect others to have the same drive and the same instincts for "edge of the envelope" self care that they have developed over the years.

As to the prevailing "love her, hate him" attitude to R&T; remember Tamarra has been married to Richard for something like 30 years. They must have something in common. Actually, they have the "good cop, bad cop" routine down to a fine art. If you get the chance, watch them at a meeting sometime.

It may seem that those who leave "just bugger off". I have seen that for many who leave, it is an agonizing decision. These folks have benefitted greatly from their involvement in a group in whose dirty laundry they seem to be entangled. The statement on the Oshawa Temple site about the closing of the Oshawa Temple says it for them.This is not a decision that was entered into lightly, but after lengthy discussions, a lack of support on the part of the priesthood body in Toronto, and some serious concerns regarding the leadership in the Toronto Temple, the members of the Steering Committee of the Oshawa Temple felt it was necessary to distance themselves from the WCC at this point in time. We sincerely feel the ideas and original mission of the WCC is a wonderful one, and we hope that one day new leadership will take it upon themselves to continue with that so that the WCC will become the beacon for Pagans all across Canada. A place to worship, to socialize, to learn, to educate. http://wccoshawa.tripod.com/ (http://wccoshawa.tripod.com/)
I might change "new" leadership to "the" leadership...

Often people discover the WCC at a time in their lives when they have been damaged. Attendance at Temple, and the resources they discover through attendance, heal them up to the point where they want to know more and to start giving back. They start to do both these things before they are ready. When they are more healed, they begin to assess whether continued involvement will be beneficial or detrimental.

I have never heard anyone mention self-care as being a part of the training for the public priesthood of the WCC. If it is not there, it certainly needs to be. It is easy enough when working in any kind of "helping capacity" to neglect oneself. When one has no training against it and sees self-neglect in the leaders of the organization they serve, it becomes even more difficult to avoid. People react to this kind of stress in many different ways, such as: lashing out at innocents, taking a student's loving support into the sexual realm and addiction. I am not saying that I have knowledge that any of these things have occurred, but I would not be surprised or unsympathetic.

As those of us who have ventured outside the boxes know, the degrees are conferred by the Divine. It takes one to know one. The start of the second degree is no time to start running a temple. It is my impression that bringing a Neophyte to initiation as a First was an add-on requirement for being recognized as a Second. There is at least one person who was recognized as a Second without having brought anyone to recognition as a First. Somehow it has become the central requirement. This is a shame. I was just outside thinking how damaging this is.

Richard and Tamarra seem to have two modes of operation, flat out and full stop. They don't seem to have mastered the art of "thank you kindly, but we've moved on". The response to email and snail mail seems to be silence. In person and on the phone, a snub makes the point. No doubt, this has come from years, decades, of people pressure - ranging from fawning to threatening.

Not being the only game in town anymore will probably benefit the WCC. People will try everywhere an only settle on the WCC if it is the best fit for them.

As to who will inherit the Tradition... My money is on Nicole. :smile:

"The training system is also designed to foster commitment and loyalty to the WCC.
retired Odyssean

This is so true. I have heard of still-attached folk asking long gone ones if they have consulted with Tamarra about their current work... Huh??

But, note, I have never heard of attempt being made to stop anyone from leaving, not even by gentle persuasion.

~N~
ENFP

Silverfire Darkmoon

August 18th, 2008, 10:20 PM

I know it's a old thread... but I am a new member to this forum and what I have read here has been with me for days...

The simple answer is burnout. Too much, too soon. That goes for the whole group. From wide eyed Dedicant begging to be Neophyted to the High Priesthood. Richard and Tamarra have given their lives to this work. From what I have seen it is their primary mission in life. They expect others to have the same drive and the same instincts for "edge of the envelope" self care that they have developed over the years.

I know that the very day after I was Neophyted I was warned time and time again by many people to not let myself get burnt out.

As to the prevailing "love her, hate him" attitude to R&T; remember Tamarra has been married to Richard for something like 30 years. They must have something in common. Actually, they have the "good cop, bad cop" routine down to a fine art. If you get the chance, watch them at a meeting sometime.

Watching the two of them in a meeting would probably happen very rarely. I think I can count the number of times I have seen the two of them in the same room at the same time on one hand, but then, I'm a member of the Hamilton temple and go slumming in the Toronto temple very rarely, mostly because I'm pretty poor and can't afford the bus.

Also, while Richard has definitely mastered the art of being inscrutable, he is very, very smart.

It may seem that those who leave "just bugger off". I have seen that for many who leave, it is an agonizing decision. These folks have benefitted greatly from their involvement in a group in whose dirty laundry they seem to be entangled. The statement on the Oshawa Temple site about the closing of the Oshawa Temple says it for them.This is not a decision that was entered into lightly, but after lengthy discussions, a lack of support on the part of the priesthood body in Toronto, and some serious concerns regarding the leadership in the Toronto Temple, the members of the Steering Committee of the Oshawa Temple felt it was necessary to distance themselves from the WCC at this point in time. We sincerely feel the ideas and original mission of the WCC is a wonderful one, and we hope that one day new leadership will take it upon themselves to continue with that so that the WCC will become the beacon for Pagans all across Canada. A place to worship, to socialize, to learn, to educate. http://wccoshawa.tripod.com/ (http://wccoshawa.tripod.com/)
I might change "new" leadership to "the" leadership...

As far as I am aware, the Oshawa (or was it Ottawa?) temple collapsed because of a nasty divorce and the fact that getting priesthood to visit from Toronto was a difficult process. Given the distance factor that wouldn't be terribly surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ottawa/Oshawa people felt that they weren't getting the attention they deserved, either.

I have never heard anyone mention self-care as being a part of the training for the public priesthood of the WCC. If it is not there, it certainly needs to be. It is easy enough when working in any kind of "helping capacity" to neglect oneself. When one has no training against it and sees self-neglect in the leaders of the organization they serve, it becomes even more difficult to avoid. People react to this kind of stress in many different ways, such as: lashing out at innocents, taking a student's loving support into the sexual realm and addiction. I am not saying that I have knowledge that any of these things have occurred, but I would not be surprised or unsympathetic.

If one is not taught self-care by one's teacher, then the problem rests with one's teacher. I can say that in my opinion one's training is very much about self-discovery and introspection, which, to me, implies self-care.

As those of us who have ventured outside the boxes know, the degrees are conferred by the Divine. It takes one to know one. The start of the second degree is no time to start running a temple. It is my impression that bringing a Neophyte to initiation as a First was an add-on requirement for being recognized as a Second. There is at least one person who was recognized as a Second without having brought anyone to recognition as a First. Somehow it has become the central requirement. This is a shame. I was just outside thinking how damaging this is.

As far as I am aware, bringing someone to the First Degree is only one small part of getting one's Second Degree. It is certainly the only part of the work which is openly discussed, much like doing a great service to the pagan community as a whole is a requirement for the Third Degree. I guarantee that there is much, much more work to be done than raising someone to First Degree, and as for the Second Degree work I can't even begin to imagine what is necessary.

Curiously, no part of the Neophyte work appears to be open knowledge, as far as I am aware.

I would also like to remind anyone commenting on the Odyssean tradition's training system that it is designed to foster a close, personal relationship with the Gods and a strong sense of loyalty to the pagan community. We very much stress public service, and as the only open venue in town, we one of the few public faces of Wicca. As such, we desire things like being a good ritualist and teacher of public classes in our priesthood. I am under the impression that one of the points of our rigorous training system is quality control, and I really hope that no-one tries to find fault with that concept. Can't have sub-par priesthood running around, now can we?

We also encourage our priesthood to train in other Traditions. I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that that may be a factor in the time it takes to reach various degrees of priesthood. Hell, for all I know it's a requirement. I have no idea...and when I do have an idea, I'm sure it'll be oathbound.

As to who will inherit the Tradition... My money is on Nicole. :smile:

You seem to forget that the lovely Janice happens to be a Third Degree. Nicole, of course, is my second bet for that role.

NuyNyx

August 19th, 2008, 12:43 PM

As far as I am aware, the Oshawa (or was it Ottawa?) temple collapsed because of a nasty divorce and the fact that getting priesthood to visit from Toronto was a difficult process. Given the distance factor that wouldn't be terribly surprising. I wouldn't be surprised if the Ottawa/Oshawa people felt that they weren't getting the attention they deserved, either.

The Temples ought to run on their own. There seems to be an overdependence on the "uplines". Having priesthood from other centers start things off or come in as guests is fine, but the leadership of any Pagan group should be from the community it serves.

If one is not taught self-care by one's teacher, then the problem rests with one's teacher.

Precisely.

I can say that in my opinion one's training is very much about self-discovery and introspection, which, to me, implies self-care.

It needs to be made explicit.

As far as I am aware, bringing someone to the First Degree is only one small part of getting one's Second Degree.

I am very glad to hear it.

Curiously, no part of the Neophyte work appears to be open knowledge, as far as I am aware.

I am also very glad to hear this. I had heard years ago that some jackass [OK.. maybe a nice, sensible person acting under duress..:weirdsmil] had taken the time to type the whole lot out and post it on the Internet. I searched then and just recently and was not able to find anything.

I would also like to remind anyone commenting on the Odyssean tradition's training system that it is designed to foster a close, personal relationship with the Gods and a strong sense of loyalty to the pagan community. We very much stress public service, and as the only open venue in town, we one of the few public faces of Wicca. As such, we desire things like being a good ritualist and teacher of public classes in our priesthood. I am under the impression that one of the points of our rigorous training system is quality control, and I really hope that no-one tries to find fault with that concept. Can't have sub-par priesthood running around, now can we?

Some find fault with the whole idea of Wicca being made public. Some say what the Odyssean tradition is doing is not Wicca. I am not going to enter into discussion of either of these ideas.

I find no fault with the concept. However, some of the implimentation could use some fine tuning.

You seem to forget that the lovely Janice happens to be a Third Degree. Nicole, of course, is my second bet for that role.

Nope.. did not forget Janice's degree. :)

Silverfire Darkmoon

August 20th, 2008, 04:29 PM

The Temples ought to run on their own. There seems to be an overdependence on the "uplines". Having priesthood from other centers start things off or come in as guests is fine, but the leadership of any Pagan group should be from the community it serves.

Precisely.

It needs to be made explicit.

I am very glad to hear it.

I am also very glad to hear this. I had heard years ago that some jackass [OK.. maybe a nice, sensible person acting under duress..:weirdsmil] had taken the time to type the whole lot out and post it on the Internet. I searched then and just recently and was not able to find anything.

Some find fault with the whole idea of Wicca being made public. Some say what the Odyssean tradition is doing is not Wicca. I am not going to enter into discussion of either of these ideas.

I find no fault with the concept. However, some of the implimentation could use some fine tuning.

Nope.. did not forget Janice's degree. :)

The lack of priesthood outside of Toronto is a very real problem, and one that I am taking a very active role in resolving to the best of my extent. It is, sadly, an unavoidable consequence of the long training process that there's a low number of priesthood. We here in Hamilton are fortunate to have Janice and two or three very dedicated Neophytes (and if I may toot my own horn, I am among them), and because we're a smaller group the dynamic is very much a different thing than it is in Toronto. In Hamilton we're much more of a family :)

I have been very fortunate that my teacher has always made it clear to me that I need to take care of myself. I will be sure to pass this knowledge on to any students I may have in the future.

There certainly are people who say that the WCC and the Odyssean Tradition are not Wicca. Doubtless those same people are of the sort who claim that one cannot be Wiccan unless one can trace one's lineage through one very specific line or another from the New Forest coven. Curiously, although they follow that odd little stricture to the letter of the law, by going about talking about being Wiccans, they violate it. Isn't that funny?

NuyNyx

August 26th, 2008, 02:12 PM

jetpiston

August 26th, 2008, 08:40 PM

There certainly are people who say that the WCC and the Odyssean Tradition are not Wicca. Doubtless those same people are of the sort who claim that one cannot be Wiccan unless one can trace one's lineage through one very specific line or another from the New Forest coven. Curiously, although they follow that odd little stricture to the letter of the law, by going about talking about being Wiccans, they violate it. Isn't that funny?

I don't understand...

How does talking about being Wiccan violate a law that does not exist? First, as a Gardnerian (with the requisite lineage), I know of no stricture against talking about being a Wiccan. Second, as far as I know, there is no rule regarding who can call themselves Wiccan, only logic, i.e. to become a Wiccan you must be initiated by a Wiccan. No matter how many people choose to ignore it or how widely accepted the practice has become, that simple logic hasn't changed.

Where's the funny part?

Silverfire Darkmoon

August 26th, 2008, 09:08 PM

I don't understand...

How does talking about being Wiccan violate a law that does not exist? First, as a Gardnerian (with the requisite lineage), I know of no stricture against talking about being a Wiccan. Second, as far as I know, there is no rule regarding who can call themselves Wiccan, only logic, i.e. to become a Wiccan you must be initiated by a Wiccan. No matter how many people choose to ignore it or how widely accepted the practice has become, that simple logic hasn't changed.

Where's the funny part?

There exist a set of laws called the Old Laws, which were most likely written by Gerald Gardner after Doreen Valiente spilt off from his coven. Those Laws, and other Gardnerian literature, state that one must never, ever talk about Wicca or Wicca-related topics with non-Wiccans, and must instead change the subject. Specifically it means that you don't talk about it with people who weren't initiated in the same fashion as you were.

The people who run around bashing others for not being strict enough in their secrecy are therefore themselves not being strict enough in their secrecy, and I find this hilarious.

Are you at all familiar with the expression 'hard-Gard', meaning someone who's a very hardline, very strict, almost fundamentalist Gardnerian (although it could very well extend to Alexandrians as well, I suppose)? That's what I'm talking about here.

Anyway, </derail>. My, how about that Wiccan Church of Canada? My, it certainly is, er, Canadian, isn't it?

jetpiston

August 27th, 2008, 06:48 AM

There exist a set of laws called the Old Laws, which were most likely written by Gerald Gardner after Doreen Valiente spilt off from his coven.
The Old Laws pre-date Doreen's leaving Gardnerianism.

Those Laws, and other Gardnerian literature, state that one must never, ever talk about Wicca or Wicca-related topics with non-Wiccans, and must instead change the subject. Specifically it means that you don't talk about it with people who weren't initiated in the same fashion as you were.If you really want to get specific, they don't forbid talking, but instead say that you should dissemble and guide suspicion away from yourself (I'm using one of the many 'versions' of the Laws available online here, as interestingly edited as many of them are). They are also, much like The Wiccan Rede or the Three Fold Law, not so much "laws" as they are a guide for behavior in certain circumstances. If we were forbidden to speak of it, it would be very difficult to make new Wiccans!

The people who run around bashing others for not being strict enough in their secrecy are therefore themselves not being strict enough in their secrecy, and I find this hilarious.I'm discussing Wicca right now, and yet I have revealed nothing that I am sworn to keep secret. It's not that hard to do, and not really very funny.

Are you at all familiar with the expression 'hard-Gard', meaning someone who's a very hardline, very strict, almost fundamentalist Gardnerian (although it could very well extend to Alexandrians as well, I suppose)? That's what I'm talking about here.I am quite familiar with the expression, having been called one many times.

Anyway, </derail>. My, how about that Wiccan Church of Canada? My, it certainly is, er, Canadian, isn't it?Yes, very Canadian! It also seems, from what little I know about it, to be sincere and well organized. Bravo to them and you!

Jet Piston
3* Gard

Silverfire Darkmoon

August 27th, 2008, 11:31 PM

Ah, since you're not belittling the WCC and open(ish) Traditions, clearly you can't be a hard-Gard :P I do not see you verbally fellating Margaret Murray, for example....of whatever the female equivalent of doing so would be :P

Sorry, the hard-Gards I've interacted with in the past have done all the things I spoke of earlier. Eejits, the lot of 'em. Fundamentalists of the pagan type.

jetpiston

August 28th, 2008, 02:45 PM

Ah, since you're not belittling the WCC and open(ish) Traditions, clearly you can't be a hard-Gard :PI wouldn't belittle a serious Tradition, but I must be clear and honest that while I understand that many Traditions are "Wiccanesque," I don't consider them to literally be Wiccan. While they contain much in common with the so-called New Forest Traditions and are often wonderful, valid practices in their own right, they lack certain things that the more "traditional" Traditions feel must be passed and cannot fully equate (nor do I think they should).

I do not see you verbally fellating Margaret Murray, for example....of whatever the female equivalent of doing so would be :PCunnilingue, the Latin verb form of cunnilingus, is the closest, but usually one would say, "verbally performing cunnilingus upon."

Sorry, the hard-Gards I've interacted with in the past have done all the things I spoke of earlier. Eejits, the lot of 'em. Fundamentalists of the pagan type.Different experiences produce different views... Most of the Gardnerians I interact with would be considered Hard-Gards, but they are hardly the types to blindly accept or follow anything or anyone without good reason. Indeed, many of them are scholars in their own right, constantly researching and testing things that some consider historically sacrosanct. They can, however, be quite strict in their practice and in how they pass on the Tradition, which is one of the reasons why we have a Tradition, to pass on our tools exactly as they were passed to us.

arawn58

August 29th, 2008, 09:29 AM

I'm skipping the Gardnnerian/Hard-Gard conversation and jumping back to the WCC proper...

Burnout and the outlying WCC temples have often gone hand in hand. Neophyte & priesthood burnout does occur within the WCC Toronto temple, but it has been less common there than it has been in the temples (that have existed over the years) outside of Toronto.

The majority of the Odyssean neophytes and priesthood reside in Toronto, so the workload of running the Toronto temple is more distributed. In the past, it was very common for the outlying temples to be run by a single Odyssean initiate who would have to do everything -- if they were lucky there would be priesthood coming out from Toronto and on some local Odyssean neophytes to assist in the workload. It has always been hard to get Toronto priesthood to come out to the outlying temples (this is one of the reasons why there is only one outlying temple today, Hamilton). Local neophytes can be of great assistance, but,at the end of the day, the weight of the local temple rested with the Leading Priesthood. So, this was a recipe for burnout.

Associate Priesthood was one policy of the WCC that, while it existed, served to combat burnout. The policy was that the Leading Priesthood of the local WCC temple could designate initiates of other traditions, that they trusted and felt were competant in leading public ritual, as Associate Priesthood of that particular temple. This policy helped to share out the workload and to strengthen bonds between the WCC temple and the local Pagan community. It was because of the latter that this policy was discontinued in 1991, when there was a change in the by-laws. This resulted in the burnout of two members of the Leading Priesthood in Hamilton temple. It has been replaced in recent years with the policy of Affiliate Priesthood -- the difference here is that the initiates of other traditions are selected by the High Priesthood of the WCC.

Members of the Leading Priesthood would, in the past, be residents of the local community thaat they served. Either they had made the choice to move that community to become Leading Priesthood or they already resided there. In 1996, there was a change in the by-laws so that all Leading Priesthood has to be members of the Odyssean High Priesthood. The upshot being, that Leading Priesthood now all came from and resided in Toronto. While the local Odyssean initiates and neophytes actually did most of the work running the local temples, the power resided in the hands of the "absentee-landlord" Leading Priesthood. This by-law change was instrumental in the end of the Ottawa and the Kitchener-Waterloo temples.

In the 19 years since I first became a member of the WCC, a constant refrain from all outlying temples has been,"it's so hard to get priesthood to come out from Toronto." As the organisation changed over time, making it more and more important for priesthood to come out from Toronto; it still appears difficult to get priesthood to come to the one,last, outlying temple. This is probably why the High Priestess and High Priest of the WCC were recently made the Leading Priesthood of Hamilton temple.

Another issue, other than burnout, has been the difficulty in getting local students to pass the Odyssean Priesthood Council -- a requirement for becoming an initiate. I have seen candidates from outlying temples fail to pass Council just because many of the Toronto Odyssean initiates, "don't know them." After this has happened to the candidate a couple of times, they usually leave the WCC and the temple, for ever. The majority of Odyssean initiates from Toronto rarely go out to one of the outlying temples -- therefore, onus is on the candidate to make trips down to Toronto to attempt to schmooze Toronto priesthood, so that Toronto priesthood Know who they are (in addition to whatever service they are providing to their own local temple, etc.).

Odyssean initiates leave the WCC because of burnout, but also because of politics, and also because of blockage in advancement -- if you've been stuck as a First for six to eight years and your teaacher still doesn't believe that you are ready, you are likely to look elsewhere (usually another tradition, switching teachers within the Odyssean tradition is usually a bad move politically). Finally, linked to burnout, politics, and elevation blockage is boredom -- people get tired of the same old thing. The "all or nothing" attitude of retaining active priesthood status, means that people drift away... I personally believe that having public ritual available wonderful, but I don't want to be doing public ritual enough to be a member of active priesthood (which is not going to likely ever happen again in this lifetime as I have been retired by the Odyssean High Priesthood and also "blacklisted") though I would be comfortable doing it a couple of times a year or so.

SilverDarkmoon, in your posts you remind me alittle of myself from almost twenty years ago. I had many of the same ideals for the Hamilton temple and the WCC that you are expressing and the same level of commitment to the local temple (perhaps this was stronger in my case re: commitment to the local temple over commitment to the organisation)... I hope it works out better for you.

Bright Blessings to all

NuyNyx

August 30th, 2008, 01:51 AM

Associate Priesthood was one policy of the WCC that, while it existed, served to combat burnout. The policy was that the Leading Priesthood of the local WCC temple could designate initiates of other traditions, that they trusted and felt were competant in leading public ritual, as Associate Priesthood of that particular temple. This policy helped to share out the workload and to strengthen bonds between the WCC temple and the local Pagan community. It was because of the latter that this policy was discontinued in 1991, when there was a change in the by-laws. This resulted in the burnout of two members of the Leading Priesthood in Hamilton temple. It has been replaced in recent years with the policy of Affiliate Priesthood -- the difference here is that the initiates of other traditions are selected by the High Priesthood of the WCC.

This I do not understand...I bolded the bit I really don't get... They changed the policy because the bonds between the temple and the local Pagan community were becoming too strong? Am I to infer that the concern was that these bonds would become stronger than those between the outlying temple and "home office"?

Does the image of pulling the reigns so tight that the horse stumbles and falls fit here?

SilverDarkmoon, in your posts you remind me alittle of myself from almost twenty years ago. I had many of the same ideals for the Hamilton temple and the WCC that you are expressing and the same level of commitment to the local temple (perhaps this was stronger in my case re: commitment to the local temple over commitment to the organisation)... I hope it works out better for you.
l

I wish you well as well SilverDarkmoon!

B*B
~N~

arawn58

August 30th, 2008, 10:42 AM

This I do not understand...I bolded the bit I really don't get... They changed the policy because the bonds between the temple and the local Pagan community were becoming too strong? Am I to infer that the concern was that these bonds would become stronger than those between the outlying temple and "home office"?

Does the image of pulling the reigns so tight that the horse stumbles and falls fit here?

It certainly does...

The by-laws were changed in 1991 because the High Priesthood of the WCC were concerned that the Ottawa temple was becoming too autonomous of Toronto. They also wanted to remove one particular member of Ottawa temple's Associate Priesthood. The only way to accomplish these goals was to change the by-laws and discontinue Associate Priesthood.

The by-laws change in 1996 regarding Leading Priesthood was also aimed at local temple autonomy. Local temples still have autonomy, but only in their steering committees -- local budget, location for classes and rituals, running a newsletter/website. Schedule of classes, ritual schedule, officiating priesthood, clergy training are the domain of the Leading Priesthood, i.e. the "home office".

Loyalty to the "home office" and to the High Priesthood of the church is paramount, as are the needs of the mother temple and the High Priesthood. Loyalty to the local temple and local priesthood is tolerated so long as it also serves the purposes of the centre. It has always been a concern of the mother temple that the outlying temples would secede. However, their strong-arm tactics have made this a self-fulfilling prophecy and has resulted in:

two attempted secession coups in Hamilton temple *
secessions in Ottawa and Kitchener-Waterloo that were only crushed by the threat of legal action (the breakaway temples were still using the WCC name).
BB
Arawn

* A bit of a sore spot with me… For the public record, the official Hamilton temple history states that I was the leader of the first attempted secession coup in 1992. Actually, there were two coup attempts that year, one in the summer and another in the fall. Rather than being the leader of either coup -- I was actually an arch-loyalist -- I was instrumental in thwarting the summer coup attempt and therefore was kept "out of the loop" by the conspirators in during their fall coup attempt. Due to my outspoken opposition to the by-law changes in 1996, I was forced out of the organisation in early 1997. Post-1997, some of the 1992 conspirators had become the "movers and shakers" in the local temple and re-wrote the official history – making themselves the saints and demonising myself. The second secession coup attempt occurred in 2000 and I only learned that there had been one, after it failed.

NuyNyx

August 30th, 2008, 11:25 PM

The by-laws were changed in 1991 because the High Priesthood of the WCC were concerned that the Ottawa temple was becoming too autonomous of Toronto. They also wanted to remove one particular member of Ottawa temple's Associate Priesthood. The only way to accomplish these goals was to change the by-laws and discontinue Associate Priesthood.

What ever happened to "We're the Leading Priesthood, we don't like the job you are doing, bye"? Oh.. I suppose that they had transfered that hire and fire perogative to the local temples and when they found they no longer liked it that way, they changed the rules??

I notice I keep using business terms. This is how the WCC always seemed to me, like a business.

The by-laws change in 1996 regarding Leading Priesthood was also aimed at local temple autonomy. Local temples still have autonomy, but only in their steering committees -- local budget, location for classes and rituals, running a newsletter/website. Schedule of classes, ritual schedule, officiating priesthood, clergy training are the domain of the Leading Priesthood, i.e. the "home office".

Well, it seems no one told the Ottawa leadership that because right until the last days of that temple shedule of classes, ritual schedule, officiating priesthood and clergy training were being done locally. There was help from Toronto in the beginning. There was lots of promised help from Toronto but little materialized.In those last days I don't think there even was a steering committee.

I can't remember if 1996 was before or after Toronto required the Ottawa temple to banish its High Priest, after which the decline began. It seems strange that they would require a by law change to get rid of an Associate and none to get rid of one of their own. Oh.. (and, yes I am having these realizations as I type) they must have assumed that the loyalty to the Mother Temple was so strong that it would wash over the local leadership to the Associate(s) and keep them in line.

I remember hearing a Toronto Odyssean saying that what was wrong in Ottawa was that people there only cared about who was running the temple. It seems that this is a major concern in Toronto as well.

two attempted secession coups in Hamilton temple *

* A bit of a sore spot with me…
That this is still a sore spot some 15 years later tells me that you must have been devoted to the temple and deeply hurt by the way you were treated. I know that you are not alone in this.
B*B
~N~

arawn58

August 31st, 2008, 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by arawn58 http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3673152#post3673152)
The by-laws were changed in 1991 because the High Priesthood of the WCC were concerned that the Ottawa temple was becoming too autonomous of Toronto. They also wanted to remove one particular member of Ottawa temple's Associate Priesthood. The only way to accomplish these goals was to change the by-laws and discontinue Associate Priesthood.

What ever happened to "We're the Leading Priesthood, we don't like the job you are doing, bye"? Oh.. I suppose that they had transfered that hire and fire perogative to the local temples and when they found they no longer liked it that way, they changed the rules??

Yes... 1991, Leading Priesthood just had to be Odyssean initiates. The local Leading Priesthood chose the Associate Priesthood for their temple. Back at the "colonial office" in Toronto, the High Priesthood did not like a particular member of the Ottawa temple Associate Priesthood and wanted that person gone. That opinion was not supported in Ottawa by the temple membership or its Leading Priesthood. So, the Toronto High Priesthood changed the by-laws elliminating Associate Priesthood -- problem solved, or at least that is how the High Priesthood in Toronto viewed things.

can't remember if 1996 was before or after Toronto required the Ottawa temple to banish its High Priest, after which the decline began. It seems strange that they would require a by law change to get rid of an Associate and none to get rid of one of their own. Oh.. (and, yes I am having these realizations as I type) they must have assumed that the loyalty to the Mother Temple was so strong that it would wash over the local leadership to the Associate(s) and keep them in line.

Okay, I remembered wrong, forgot that the temple also had a High Priestess and therefore did not have to be run out of Toronto, like Hamilton. If the target of the 1991 by-law changes was Ottawa temple, the target of the 1996 by-law changes was Hamilton temple. I know a little of the issues that were effecting Ottawa temple in 1996 -- as I was in communication with the temple priesthood at the time (mostly comparing notes about similar problems of the `hinterland`temples in regards to Toronto `heartland`, the issue of getting students from the outlying temples through Council, and Toronto interference in local temple affairs). Toronto would interprete these communications as examples of disloyalty.

I believe that Ottawa seceded sometime in late 1997 or early 1998 from Toronto and that they were forced to stop using the WCC name in early 1999.

My interpretation of the by-law changes of 1991 and 1996 are that they were just further moves by the WCC High Priesthood to centralise and consolidate power (just as the by-law changes in 1986 that resulted in a WCC civil war -- in Toronto).

I remember hearing a Toronto Odyssean saying that what was wrong in Ottawa was that people there only cared about who was running the temple. It seems that this is a major concern in Toronto as well.

The same has been said about Hamilton. It is a major concern in Toronto too, but you are forgetting -- Toronto temple IS the WCC.

That this is still a sore spot some 15 years later tells me that you must have been devoted to the temple and deeply hurt by the way you were treated. I know that you are not alone in this.

Yes, I was very devoted to the temple, as was my wife... What really bugs me is the editing of history and demonisation...

BB
Arawn

charlinr17@sympatico

August 31st, 2008, 01:04 PM

If it helps then it is all good.

NuyNyx

August 31st, 2008, 11:35 PM

The Ottawa temple limped along as the Ottawa Temple of the WCC until it closed in 2000(??) with Richard James as its High Priest and a local initiate, whose face was more towards Toronto than Ottawa, as its operating priestess. There was, as would be expected, some kind of "bring back Tamarra" petition sent to Toronto and, as would be expected, no answer was ever received. The Ottawa Temple of the WCC never had to drop the name. Why would it with Richard as its HP? Could it have been another group that was using the WCC name?

It was probably that if Hamilton is "outlying", then Ottawa was the back end of nowhere from which word would never have reached Toronto, so rules schmules.

Just where in all of this is the love and trust?? Isn't that supposed to be the point? Is this an example of how the community and the Divine are to be served? That is what disturbs me the most here - that people were treated with such disregard. The line was that it was "Traditional" to work one's heart out for one's HP and HPs. Is/was there no "Traditional" flow-back from Leading Priesthood?

And yet... I still dream of having just a place to go that is open for Pagan reflection, where there would be properly tended shrines to our Deities and celebrations each Sabbat. Maybe the next generation...

B*B
~N~

arawn58

September 1st, 2008, 10:58 AM

Originally Posted by arawn58 http://mysticwicks.com/enlighten/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=3674527#post3674527)
The Ottawa temple limped along as the Ottawa Temple of the WCC until it closed in 2000(??) with Richard James as its High Priest and a local initiate, whose face was more towards Toronto than Ottawa, as its operating priestess. There was, as would be expected, some kind of "bring back Tamarra" petition sent to Toronto and, as would be expected, no answer was ever received. The Ottawa Temple of the WCC never had to drop the name. Why would it with Richard as its HP? Could it have been another group that was using the WCC name?

It was probably that if Hamilton is "outlying", then Ottawa was the back end of nowhere from which word would never have reached Toronto, so rules schmules.

To begin with, I didn't post the above...

Okay, I was not in Ottawa and only know of what went on through my contacts. What I do know is this:

that there was a secession in late 97/early 98
that most of the congregation supported secession from Toronto
that the "rebels" were threatened with legal action if they continued to use the WCC name.
that the Ottawa temple was officially closed by the WCC in January of 1999
That said, I should have assumed that there were some "loyalists" within Ottawa temple that didn't support the secession. I assume that there would have been a time when there were two temples, one the breakaway temple and the other composed of "loyalists" operationg in the city. As for the temple continuing to exist until 2000 -- I wasn't in Ottawa and can only go by the WCC documents that I have that state that the temple was officially closed January 1999.

Actually, Ottawa was not seen as the "backend of nowhere" -- it was seen as a "prize", but a difficult one to manage and control,because of distance. Hamilton, has been seen as an inconvenient adjunct to Toronto, of little importance until it became the only satellite temple to Toronto.

It would be great if there was a multitradition Modern Pagan church in the province. Maybe it will happen someday. Maybe the WCC even may evolve in this direction, after it's founders pass the veil.

BB
Arawn