Whole buncha questions

[Little Billy]

But I'll start with just two:

1. What, exactly, is this all about? I've been told that Paganism = devil worship, but it turns out that my pastors, etc, lied about everything, so I thought I'd get the other side of the story.

2. What is a "path"? I keep seeing that mentioned here, but nobody defines it.

[Calen]

A path is the term used to describe one's personal spiritual...stuff. What you believe, what you do. It can also be for your life in general, in all it's aspects. Work, family, spirituality, whatever.

[Little Billy]

A path is the term used to describe one's personal spiritual...stuff. What you believe, what you do. It can also be for your life in general, in all it's aspects. Work, family, spirituality, whatever.

Oh, okay. So it isn't a specific term, it's more along the lines of "personal philosophy on things".

[Ninjakitten]

Oh, okay. So it isn't a specific term, it's more along the lines of "personal philosophy on things".


Exactly! It can also include any sort of spiritual practices that you include in your life. Your path could be Wicca, Buddhism, Christianity, or any other faith, or even one that hasn't been defined yet. It could be a blend of many different defined paths and can (and in my opinion, it should) include your own personal insights and experiences with (or without) the Divine.

I wouldn't necessarily say your pastor lied to you about paganism=devil worship. I would call him misinformed and too stubborn to look into it himself. Many Christians fear that they will be decieved by the devil if they dare look at something their church disagrees with. Well, I'm a Christian, and I'm finding that I'm learning more about Jesus by looking at non-churchy things and asking questions and asking Godde for guidance along the way, and finding out things like that the Christian Diety is both masculine and feminine, and that Jesus wasn't literally God incarnate but was a man that was given Divine Authority to accomplish what he needed to. I have also learned a great respect for the Creator/Creatrix's Creation and a love for His/Her work in the world that many modern Christians take for granted and destroy.

In being willing to look at pagans and their paths, I am seeing people with the heart of the Christ that doesn't include the condemning of others and the pushing of lies about others to further an agenda. I see forgiving and loving hearts that I read about in parts of the Bible that Jesus showed, and I learned to read the Bible objectively and critically, and learned about a lot of mistranslations and contradictions. The churches don't want you to see that, or they lose their power over hearts and minds. They say "read the Bible with guidance from the Holy Spirit", but then condemn you when the Holy Spirit guides you to ask questions. Pagans, from what I've seen for the most part, don't do that, but allow you the freedom to seek the Divine on your own terms... except for the fundamentalists. Yep, pagan paths have those, too. Christians don't have a monopoly on that any more than they have a monopoly on the truth.

In case you are curious, I am a Christian that now practices witchcraft and is learning about reformed druidism, and I love Mystic Wicks because it is a great place for me go to, this wonderful spiritual sanctuary, where I can ask questions and dare to pose my insights as I travel with these Mystic Wicks bretheren on my spiritual walk.

[Little Billy]

Exactly! It can also include any sort of spiritual practices that you include in your life. Your path could be Wicca, Buddhism, Christianity, or any other faith, or even one that hasn't been defined yet. It could be a blend of many different defined paths and can (and in my opinion, it should) include your own personal insights and experiences with (or without) the Divine.

I wouldn't necessarily say your pastor lied to you about paganism=devil worship. I would call him misinformed and too stubborn to look into it himself.

1. Well, right now I don't believe anything. That's not trying to be emo, it's just a statement of fact...I am working to correct this (ie, looking at every belief system I can get my grubby little browser onto).

2. He lied about everything. It has been (my) experience that Christians tend to do this unceasingly...hence (among other reasons), my leaving the "faith".



In case you are curious, I am a Christian that now practices witchcraft and is learning about reformed druidism,

Well, no offense, but I hope you turn out to be a cut above the people I spent my whole life worshipping with.

But I have to ask...how can you be a Christian AND a druid?

[Ninjakitten]

1. Well, right now I don't believe anything. That's not trying to be emo, it's just a statement of fact...I am working to correct this (ie, looking at every belief system I can get my grubby little browser onto).

2. He lied about everything. It has been (my) experience that Christians tend to do this unceasingly...hence (among other reasons), my leaving the "faith".



Well, no offense, but I hope you turn out to be a cut above the people I spent my whole life worshipping with.

But I have to ask...how can you be a Christian AND a druid?


It will take some time as you sift through your feelings and find out what rings true to your spirit. Don't do like I used to do and discount all of Christianity, though, just because you had a bad experience from it. Not saying this is necessarily true for you, but you may find that the stereotypes you've become accustomed to involving Christianity may blind you to the truths that lie within it.

As for me being a "cut above" those Christians, I think most people that have read my posts can tell you I'm not your average Christian. At the moment, I'm a Christian and a witch (not yet a druid, but my Archdruid friend of mine exposed me to some "druidic truths" that ring true to me and seem to be modified "witchy truths"). Anyway, to me, witchcraft is a path, druidism is a path, both being, to me, spiritual philosophies that hold truth about the world around me, including that which I can only percieve with my spirit (but still technically a part of Creation, and therefore in this world). Basically, I don't take the Bible as the inerrant literal word of God. I take it as a compilation of people's experiences with the Creator/Creatrix (yes, the Bible speaks of the feminine aspect of the Divine, but is called "wisdom" in Proverbs, and the "Holy Spirit" in other areas), and I see truth in other spiritual paths that churchianity... um, I mean modern Christianity doesn't preach, and has even reworded the Bible to speak against.

You could say I'm an "earth-based" or "eclectic" Christian. I don't blind myself by what a pastor tells me the Bible says. I ask, with my spirit, what I'm supposed to learn from the Bible. The Bible, in earlier translations, speaks about a lot of specific things you aren't supposed to do, like worship other gods (which I don't do), and use sorcery to harm. The Bible does tell us (whether we still need to do them or not since Jesus doesn't mean we weren't ever told to do it) things that we (well, the Hebrews) were to do, like burnt offerings of incense and other rituals that sound awfully witchy to me. I see a lot of the same ritualistic stuff in the Bible that is/was acceptable to God done in pagan paths, including witchcraft and druidism.

Also, I read books left out of the Bible like the Apocrypha, which are Hellenistic Christian writings (left out because they were "too" Hellenistic and included the feminine Divine).

I guess, to sum that all up, my path has lead me to be a Christian in faith, but seeing how Jesus acted (using my spirit to sift through some of the added in junk the church added in to justify their own things), I've come to the conclusion that there is a lot I can learn from other paths on how to be more "Christ-like" by being "more pagan". After all, Jesus did do things like spit into the ground, made a paste with the mud to smear on a blind man's eyes, and told the blind man to wash off the paste in a sacred river to cure the blindness, when in "all his Divine Power" he could have simply smacked him in the head and said "you are HEALED". Sound's kind of witchy to me.

[morningstar2651]

1. Well, right now I don't believe anything. That's not trying to be emo, it's just a statement of fact...I am working to correct this (ie, looking at every belief system I can get my grubby little browser onto).This quiz (http://selectsmart.com/RELIGION/) might help. Religious tolerance (http://www.religioustolerance.org/) also has some good information.


2. He lied about everything. It has been (my) experience that Christians tend to do this unceasingly...hence (among other reasons), my leaving the "faith".Christians are much too large a group for all to lie incessantly. To be honest, I've had the same problem with some Pagans too. There are jerks in every religion.

[Little Billy]

This quiz (http://selectsmart.com/RELIGION/) might help. Religious tolerance (http://www.religioustolerance.org/) also has some good information.


Christians are much too large a group for all to lie incessantly. To be honest, I've had the same problem with some Pagans too. There are jerks in every religion.


Heh. Neo-Pagan (100%)

And something about "Cthulu", whatever the hell that is. :hehehehe:

[Little Billy]

I'm a Christian and a witch .

Aren't you required to stone yourself, then?

"Suffer not a witch to live", etc, etc?

I guess, to sum that all up, my path has lead me to be a Christian in faith, but seeing how Jesus acted (using my spirit to sift through some of the added in junk the church added in to justify their own things), I've come to the conclusion that there is a lot I can learn from other paths on how to be more "Christ-like" by being "more pagan". After all, Jesus did do things like spit into the ground, made a paste with the mud to smear on a blind man's eyes, and told the blind man to wash off the paste in a sacred river to cure the blindness, when in "all his Divine Power" he could have simply smacked him in the head and said "you are HEALED". Sound's kind of witchy to me.

Well, Jesus told his apostles that "if they had faith the size of a mustard seed", they could move mountains. And what is faith, but focused will?

[Aria Silverfyre]

You've definately come to the right place for answers. While we may not all have exact, "set-in-stone" answers, you'll be able to get a taste of what we're about and how we tend to view different aspects of the Pagan faith.

[Little Billy]

You've definately come to the right place for answers. While we may not all have exact, "set-in-stone" answers, you'll be able to get a taste of what we're about and how we tend to view different aspects of the Pagan faith.

Okay.

Given that, let me ask a hard one:

What does withcraft/Wicca/etc DO? I don't mean the religious view, I mean the actual practice. Is that real? Does it have concrete results?

I'm not trying to mock or be a smartass, by the way. I'm genuinely curious.

[morningstar2651]

Aren't you required to stone yourself, then?

"Suffer not a witch to live", etc, etc?http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_bibl.htm

Plus, according to Christianity, the crucifiction of Jesus nullifies the need to stone people to death.

Well, Jesus told his apostles that "if they had faith the size of a mustard seed", they could move mountains. And what is faith, but focused will?Pretty much.

[Aria Silverfyre]

Okay.

Given that, let me ask a hard one:

What does withcraft/Wicca/etc DO? I don't mean the religious view, I mean the actual practice. Is that real? Does it have concrete results?

I'm not trying to mock or be a smartass, by the way. I'm genuinely curious.

To be honest, I'm still trying to figure that out myself. I'm relatively new to this path as well. Curiosity is a good thing. That's how I got to this point. As far as being real or concrete... I couldn't tell you either way. That's for someone to decide for themselves. IMHO

[Little Billy]

As far as being real or concrete... I couldn't tell you either way. That's for someone to decide for themselves. IMHO

Um, no, that would be a subjective result. What I meant to ask is "are there quantifiable, objective, measurable results from this sort of thing?"

Not trying to "debunk", just asking.

[morningstar2651]

If you're looking for objective scientific evidence, you probably won't find it. That's why it's called magic instead of being called science.

However, science doesn't have all the answers. It's perfectly acceptable to be skeptical -- I encourage it (http://skepdic.com).

I have successful results. They aren't measurable.

[Little Billy]

If you're looking for objective scientific evidence, you probably won't find it. That's why it's called magic instead of being called science.

However, science doesn't have all the answers. It's perfectly acceptable to be skeptical -- I encourage it (http://skepdic.com).

I have successful results. They aren't measurable.

It's not so much a matter of skepticism as it is a matter of definition.

I'm just trying to figure out what all this is about.

I'm ignorant, you see.

[morningstar2651]

It's not so much a matter of skepticism as it is a matter of definition.

I'm just trying to figure out what all this is about.

I'm ignorant, you see.
I see. 8O

Definitions of Pagan (http://wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=pagan)
Definitions of Neo-Pagan (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&hs=I9C&lr=&client=firefox-a&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&oi=definer&q=define:neo-pagan&defl=en)

People use magic for various purposes. For example, in Thelema, the stated purpose of magick is to "Do what thou wilt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_Will)." A Thelemite could probably explain Thelema in much more depth than I can.

Here is a pretty good witchcraft tutorial & FAQ (http://www.whywiccanssuck.com/learn0.html) that is, for the most part, devoid of religious leanings.

[tarotgirljess]

To me magic is similar to prayer. You say it outloud or to yourself what you want, And you send it to God or Godess spirit ect. It's the focus of energy on what you want.

[LostSheep]

Heh. Neo-Pagan (100%)

And something about "Cthulu", whatever the hell that is. :hehehehe:
ah, the Lovecraftian path .... that's a good one if you want want to have some fun.

[Kalika]

But I'll start with just two:

1. What, exactly, is this all about? I've been told that Paganism = devil worship, but it turns out that my pastors, etc, lied about everything, so I thought I'd get the other side of the story.

2. What is a "path"? I keep seeing that mentioned here, but nobody defines it.

Paganism is a broad term usually used to encompass all religions that don't fall into a mainstream category. This includes Wicca, Witchcraft, UU, etc.

Most pagans have in common that they revere nature, believe in a goddess and a god, and that finding your own path in this life is important. (Notice I said most - not all).

"Path" is used to refer to one's spiritual journey... the journey that they are on to find themselves and their beliefs.

[Kalika]

Heh. Neo-Pagan (100%)

And something about "Cthulu", whatever the hell that is. :hehehehe:

Here is some info on Cthulu:

http://www.cthulhu.org/cthulhu/

[taki yume]

"Suffer not a witch to live", etc, etc?






I read somewhere once that "Suffer not a witch to live" was in the King James (I think that's the proper name..) version of the bible, which was one of the more altered versions of the bible during the Burning (Middle) Ages.

According to the book I was reading, the original phrase was "Thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live". "Poisoner" meaning someone that harmed others.

The Wiccan Rede states "And as long as it harms none, do as ye will".

So, if my information is all accurate (which I truely believe that it is), Pagans and Witches aren't bad.

^___^ Good luck!

~Taki Yume

[Aidron]

The Wiccan Rede states "And as long as it harms none, do as ye will".

So, if my information is all accurate (which I truely believe that it is), Pagans and Witches aren't bad.


Not every Pagan nor every Witch adheres to the Wiccan rede. Some most certainly are rotten to the core, and that includes Wiccans as well. Pagans are no different than anyone else, there are some good apples, some bad apples, some which are in between and some that are so strange you wonder if they are even an apple at all.

[morningstar2651]

Not every Pagan nor every Witch adheres to the Wiccan rede. Some most certainly are rotten to the core, and that includes Wiccans as well. Pagans are no different than anyone else, there are some good apples, some bad apples, some which are in between and some that are so strange you wonder if they are even an apple at all.Like I said earlier in this thread:
. . .There are jerks in every religion.

And as for strange apples, I've run into a few of those too.

[RunningRiot]

A "path" is a religion, but most people like the former term better because it doesn't sound so contricting. A path can change its route, a religion is just practice.

Paganism is a term that harbours a broad array of all Non-Christian and Non-Jewish religions, so alot of people who consider themselves non-pagan are collected under its term aswell. Note: Paganism itself is NOT a religion, it's just a term for a certain group of them.

[Aidron]

Like I said earlier in this thread:

You missed my point. I can be bad, very bad. I pay no heed to the Wiccan Rede and while my proverbial naughtiness is usually confined to instances where I have been severely crossed, this is not always the case. I can be just as bad as I can good and I think it has little to do with being a jerk.

[Little Billy]

Not every Pagan nor every Witch adheres to the Wiccan rede. Some most certainly are rotten to the core, and that includes Wiccans as well. Pagans are no different than anyone else, there are some good apples, some bad apples, some which are in between and some that are so strange you wonder if they are even an apple at all.


Okay, what's the "Wiccan Rede"?

[morningstar2651]

Okay, what's the "Wiccan Rede"?
"...'Do what you like so long as you harm no one.' But [Wiccans] believe a certain law to be important, 'You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm'." - Gerald Gardner, The Meaning of Witchcraft.

Here is more information (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wicrede.htm).

[Little Billy]

"...'Do what you like so long as you harm no one.' But [Wiccans] believe a certain law to be important, 'You must not use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm'." - Gerald Gardner, The Meaning of Witchcraft.

Here is more information (http://www.religioustolerance.org/wicrede.htm).

Um, so, if someone is all over your case, you can't use magic to drop the hammer on them?

That kinda sucks. Seems like that would take all the fun out of it.

I better stay away from this magic stuff. Otherwise, you'll be watching politicians monkeydance on live TV, until I get run over by a Karma. :santasmil

Seriously, though, if you can't use magic to smack someone who is smacking you or those around you, what good is it?

[morningstar2651]

If a single magickal boot in the face stops a person from constantly causing harm, then I'd say that falls under "abating greater harm".

Or, you could opt to not follow the rede. The rede is for Wicca.

[Little Billy]

If a single magickal boot in the face stops a person from constantly causing harm, then I'd say that falls under "abating greater harm".

Or, you could opt to not follow the rede. The rede is for Wicca.

Well, seeing as my sense of humor usually trumps every other aspect of my personality, I suppose I'd better stay away from Wicca.

[Ninjakitten]

Yeah, I stay away from the Rede myself, though my witchcraft style is influenced by Wicca to some degree (like how to cast a circle, calling the elements, and a few other things). Too much ninja training and attitude keeps me from wanting to follow it. That, and I don't believe that karma will bite me in the butt more than it does when I'm trying to be a really good person, and I don't see enough "karma biting butts" of those who harm me. I have no qualms about using magic to put some negative boot planting in a bad person's life, but I do tend to try to work in concepts of the spell beign able to be broken if the person repents and/or atones for what they did to piss me off in the first place, even if I don't know they repented/atoned.

As for the "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" stuff, others have already posted the understandings I came across before I decided that it was okay for me to use witchcraft as a Christian.

[taki yume]

I realize that not everyone follows the rede (many don't believe in it all together), but I do. ...Or so far, I have. >.>

I believe that if someone is "all over your case", karma will get them in the end. Of course, there are ways to speed up their karma, and I don't really see how that is "breaking" the rede... I mean, it could go either way..(their karma could be good, or it could be bad. And of course, if they're doing something bad, then the karma will most likely be thus..)


~Taki Yume

[bbnflpn]

for me i found that before i knew i was a witch, i had already followed the rede and the laws of karma. i had seen for my self the damage i had done at an early age by some "unintentional magic" and i still see the lasting effects of it till this day. i did not realize that my words held so much power. i let so much of it fly that i have to becareful what i say or even what i think. i didnt know it was magic i was doing, but i knew i was doing somthing so i held my thoughts and my tounge as well. when i came to the realization that i was a witch it all made so much sence, and as much as i didnt want to be wiccan it kept following me where i went. your path will come before you when it is time. dont be afraid to learn as you go along though.

[morningstar2651]

There is also the threefold law of return (or, to some, such as me, the law of return) which states whatever energies you put out, come back three-fold (or just come back one-fold in the law of return).

It's pretty much "What goes around, comes around." The three fold law is the basis of the Wiccan Rede. I have a good friend on a Warrior path that believes in the three fold law and not the rede. He accepts the consequences for his actions.

[Little Billy]

Yeah, I stay away from the Rede myself, though my witchcraft style is influenced by Wicca to some degree (like how to cast a circle, calling the elements, and a few other things). Too much ninja training and attitude keeps me from wanting to follow it.

That, and I don't believe that karma will bite me in the butt more than it does when I'm trying to be a really good person, and I don't see enough "karma biting butts" of those who harm me.

1. Of course. Besides, Ninjas would stomp pirate butt. Of course, cowboys would deal with BOTH of them (no shadows at high noon, partner).

2. Yep. It seems that Karma only applies to the good guys.

[Little Billy]

I believe that if someone is "all over your case", karma will get them in the end.

Sam Walton. EOT.

[Aidron]

Further clarification (as I forgot about this thread...):

The Rede is not even adhered to by all Wiccans. It in fact has not been around as long as Wicca, with the Rede being created in the 70s if my memory serves me right. Furthermore, Rede denotes advice, not law, so even if one adheres to it, it would be best to consider it for what it is; advice, not a dictation of how you should conduct yourself.

Secondly, as to karma, karma determines what happens to you in your next life, not next week. As such, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people not because karma isn't working (nor do good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people because karma is working), but because the universe is keeping things in balance. Nothing is perfect, nothing is ever one-sided. Everyone will have ups and downs. The underlying theme throughout the cosmos is balance, things maintain balance on their own at times, other times we as human beings are a part of keeping that balance. We can also disrupt it, so can other things.

I don't consider the Wiccan Rede to be good advice, thus I do not really think much on it. I also don't ascribe to the western idea of karma (what goes around, comes around) or the Threefold Law (for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction, not a magnified reaction multiplied by 3). The Law of Return can be two fold. It can relate to the western idea of karma, but also of sympathy (like attracts like). Sympathy doesn't mean if you're a rotten person you'll attract rotten energies necessarily (though you'll certainly be pressed to find a rotten person who doesn't usually).

And yes, if people cross me (which it generally takes a lot to push me over that edge) I have no problems with using magic to give them their fair share in return, so don't there is little need to abhor magic because you feel it can not be used in a way you wish; as it can. Magic is and has been practiced by people all acrossed the globe in many cultures, none of which lived by the same set of morals and each I'm sure has had success. It'll work, but there are also consequences for every action. If you curse someone and aren't careful, that curse could overlap into your life or someone's life you care about.

[taki yume]

2. Yep. It seems that Karma only applies to the good guys.


*Shrug* That's your opinion, and you are more than entitled to it. However, I disagree: just because you don't see the karma come back at them (a drink spashed in their face, katsup on their favorite shoes, keyed car, etc...) doesn't mean that it hasn't/won't. Of course, they probably won't recognize that there is a reason that something horrible happened to them, and even if one is fortunate enough to bare witness, one may not realize the reason that caused the event to take place.

In short: just because its the "good guys" that notice karma doesn't mean that the "bad guys" aren't at the recieving end at some point too.

Don't get me wrong, I can fully understand why many people don't agree with me. My logic is a bit twisted, and I probably put a bit too much faith in the Faites...



Sam Walton. EOT.


I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. Who is Sam Walton, and what does "EOT" stand for? o.O?


~Taki Yume

[Little Billy]

Secondly, as to karma, karma determines what happens to you in your next life, not next week.

Well, as I understand the three-fold law, this basically means you are expected to allow yourself to be victimized by the bad guys, in the hope that the next time around will be better.

I don't think I'm that patient.

EDIT: Yes, I did read your whole post. That was the only part I felt the need to comment on, but thanks for the clarification.

[Little Billy]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you mean. Who is Sam Walton, and what does "EOT" stand for? o.O?


~Taki Yume

Sam Walton founded WalMart, and was at least partially responsible for destroying the mom & pop corner store.

He died rich and happy.

EOT = End Of Thread, which is actually just a glorified excamation point.

[morningstar2651]

The Rede is not even adhered to by all Wiccans. It in fact has not been around as long as Wicca, with the Rede being created in the 70s if my memory serves me right.Not exactly.

The Rede appears in Gardner's The Meaning of Witchcraft (Published 1959), though not in its popular eight word form.

The first recorded mention of the popular eight word version of the Rede was in a speech by Doreen Valiente on October 3, 1964.

Some people simplify it even further to "harm none"...which is far too simplified for my tastes.

Also, I'm confused on one point. How can one be Wiccan while not adhering to the few doctrine that define Wicca?

Furthermore, Rede denotes advice, not law, so even if one adheres to it, it would be best to consider it for what it is; advice, not a dictation of how you should conduct yourself.

Secondly, as to karma, karma determines what happens to you in your next life, not next week. As such, good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people not because karma isn't working (nor do good things happen to good people and bad things happen to bad people because karma is working), but because the universe is keeping things in balance. Nothing is perfect, nothing is ever one-sided. Everyone will have ups and downs. The underlying theme throughout the cosmos is balance, things maintain balance on their own at times, other times we as human beings are a part of keeping that balance. We can also disrupt it, so can other things.Bingo. Nature is a balancing system (http://www.systems-thinking.org/). We can throw the equilibrium off, but it will eventually return to a state of balance, even if it takes millenia.

I don't consider the Wiccan Rede to be good advice, thus I do not really think much on it. I also don't ascribe to the western idea of karma (what goes around, comes around) or the Threefold Law (for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction, not a magnified reaction multiplied by 3). The Law of Return can be two fold. It can relate to the western idea of karma, but also of sympathy (like attracts like). Sympathy doesn't mean if you're a rotten person you'll attract rotten energies necessarily (though you'll certainly be pressed to find a rotten person who doesn't usually).It would probably be more accurate to say that "every choice has a consequence". Do you agree?

And yes, if people cross me (which it generally takes a lot to push me over that edge) I have no problems with using magic to give them their fair share in return, so don't there is little need to abhor magic because you feel it can not be used in a way you wish; as it can. Magic is and has been practiced by people all acrossed the globe in many cultures, none of which lived by the same set of morals and each I'm sure has had success. It'll work, but there are also consequences for every action. If you curse someone and aren't careful, that curse could overlap into your life or someone's life you care about.I've never needed to use magic in this way. The people that I've had trouble with engaged in self-destructive behaviors.

[Mera_mera]

To the original poster. After reading this thread I was wondering if you were getting the information you originally wished for. From what I've seen the discussion seems to mostly be about one or two different types of pagans. I specific acknowledgement of magick/witchcraft. I am a pagan not Wiccan, not any defined path that I have seen, but my beliefs and practices are quite defined, though they could use more definition.

I know many, many people like me who are pagan but don't do magick/witchcraft, per se. I know there are things that some fundamentalist/devout/orthodox Christians etc. would think were evil and sacrilegious, such as meditation, but I don't consider any of the things that I do magick/witchcraft. What I have gained from practicing my pagan path is the ability to communicate with Mother/Father;God/Goddess;Light/Force;Creator etc. aspect on a very direct and personal level, and to also know myself better and create the way my life and destiny go as well. I am able to affect things, people, animals, plants, and more abstract things, I am able to tap into the 6th sense extremely often. But I don't consider this magic. For me it is just tools of spiritualilty. I've never cast any spells or anything of that nature. I've found that most Neo-Pagans who transition on their own, get their start through meditation.

As for the disdain for Christianity, I think it is almost always necessary for someone who has been pretty religious to abhor their former religion when they turn to Paganism. It certainly happened to me. And for me it was a way of defining what I didn't like about it, and what I wanted in my new path, in order to sorta mourn for what was dying in me(my religious beliefs) I needed to go through that anger about it for being mislead and on a path to nowhere(which is how I felt) in order to become renewed in the energy and destination of my new path.

I have found many ways to let someone 'have it' without harming them, if interested I could expound on that.

If I could define paganism as a whole I would dare say it is a genre of belief systems that thrive on natural resources such as the earth and the human mind, body, soul, and heart, as well as having a direct knowledge and use of the abstract sources of power from the Divine and mystical aspects, who are generally involved in better knowing oneself and ones surroundings, as well as personal spiritual growth. Pagans tend to be more tolerant when it comes to other belief systems as well, in my opinion.

Note everything I've written here, is based on my opinions and experience. As a writer (who's writing horribly atm) I am very observant and while I've explored this sect for a few years and I speaking rather general terms, as I think variety tends to make for more opportunities. Good luck on your spiritual journey.

[Aidron]

Not exactly.

The Rede appears in Gardner's The Meaning of Witchcraft (Published 1959), though not in its popular eight word form.

The first recorded mention of the popular eight word version of the Rede was in a speech by Doreen Valiente on October 3, 1964.

Some people simplify it even further to "harm none"...which is far too simplified for my tastes.


I can confirm everything you said, since it occurred to me last night that I wanted to look into it more so I could start giving more precise dates (the 70s weren't feeling right and where I picked it up from is anyone's guess). The most popularized form does come from Doreen's speech in October:

"Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill, an in it harm none do as you will."

Naturally who would expect anyone but her to come up with the most poetic version of all.

Also, I'm confused on one point. How can one be Wiccan while not adhering to the few doctrine that define Wicca?

Likely because it is not a doctrine, but as the word 'rede' implies, it is simply advice handed down from those who got Wicca off the ground you might could say, or from those who were around before the creation of Wicca (as some claim it stems from older practitioners that were not necessarily Wiccan). As advice, it's encouraged, but optional I would imagine and can be interpreted as: "Your life will probably be better off following this advice, but it is of course up to you whether you adhere to it or not." At the end of the day though you'd have to question the followers of Wicca who do not follow the Wiccan Rede for a better point of view, since I am not one.


It would probably be more accurate to say that "every choice has a consequence". Do you agree?

In reference to or in place of the Threefold Law? Yes. In regards to the Law of Return, that I have no problems with, but I interpret it much as Isaac Newton said:

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction."

Things are returned to us, because they react, but there is of course a consequence for everything, for good or for ill (so many seem to interpret 'consequence' as malevolent).

I've never needed to use magic in this way. The people that I've had trouble with engaged in self-destructive behaviors.

I've rarely needed to bother myself. I find most people hang themselves sooner or later and then forget about you due to it. However, all people engage in self-destructive behaviors, consciously or unconsciously; and in relation to the Rede, harm is part of balance, the polarity of healing, and no matter how much one may try we will harm someone, something or ourselves at some point, with varying degrees of frequency.

Now, back to my cigarette and self-destructive behavior. ;)