Do you need a Coven?

[Walking Spirit]

I have read on several sites that some believe in order to truly follow this path, one must belong to a Coven as solidarity is not recognized as "following". Is this a personal choice or is it just a give in to belong to a Coven? One place I read was pretty set on belonging to a Coven and why it was so necassary.

[Crimson Mage]

Well, first, you did not say what "this path" is, so I am going to assume you mean the Pagan Path. If that is indeed what you mean, nothing could be further from the truth.
One of the basic principles of Paganism is that one may worship as one wishes, and that is no set of "rules" one must follow. My particular path is one thats very eclectic, and is made up of pieces from this path, pieces from another, etc etc. It is unique to me, and that fact alone makes me a solitary.
You must understand as well, that within the realm of "Paganism" there are many many Paths one could choose. No different than choosing between the many Christian paths (Catholic, Protestant, Methodist, etc etc etc). Paganism itself is not a "path" per se, its a word that describes a group of paths just like the word Christian does.
That said, there ARE paths within the Pagan religions that do have a set of "rules" that members of that Path follow. When a group of Pagan who worship the same deities the same way come together in order that they all worship together -- they form a coven. That coven usually adopts its own set of rules and regulations for its members covering worship, education, etc etc. They will tell you in most cases that there's is the "right way", and it is....for THEM. For someone else it may not be. And there is the key, do what feels right to you and worship as you will. You dont have to belong to any particular Coven, club, or other entity to be "right" -- right is in your own heart, mind, and soul.

[morningstar2651]

It depends on what "this path" is. Some require initiation. This means that someone else brings you into the tradition.

[Aidron]

One of the basic principles of Paganism is that one may worship as one wishes, and that is no set of "rules" one must follow.

This could not be further from the truth or more contradictory given what you say further on in your post. Paganism is not a religious free-for-all. There are rules, but the rules are not dictated by Paganism, they are dictated by the respective Pagan religons. Furthermore, anyome may worship as they wish, it's called free will, not Paganism.

As to the original question, some traditions require that you be initiated by a coven to be truly recognized as a member of that path. Others do not. You will have to be more specific. Since Paganism is not a path, it's not required, not even all Pagans believe or adhere in the concept of covens. Covens are usually relegated to Witches and religions, like Wicca, in which Witchcraft is easily integrated and accepted. In some Wiccan traditions you must be initiated in order to be truly recognized by other members of that faith; their rules, not mine. As to being a Witch, Witchcraft is the practice of bending and shaping energy (i.e. magic, usually low, folk magic) and as such there is little need to be initiated to be recognized as a Witch, since anyone can become adept at utilizing magic.

[Crimson Mage]

[QUOTE=Aidron]This could not be further from the truth or more contradictory given what you say further on in your post. Paganism is not a religious free-for-all. There are rules, but the rules are not dictated by Paganism, they are dictated by the respective Pagan religons. Furthermore, anyome may worship as they wish, it's called free will, not Paganism.QUOTE]

Thats exactly my point Aidron - that Paganism does not dictate any set of rules, specific paths within the broad spectrum of Pagan religions - specific tradtitions do, and it varies, depending on the tradition. Sorry for the confusion in the way I stated it.
The "rules" are set by the specific path you are interested in, and NOT by Paganism itself.
Thanks for making my post a bit clearer.

[Little Billy]

I have read on several sites that some believe in order to truly follow this path, one must belong to a Coven as solidarity is not recognized as "following".

But why would you want to "follow"?

Do your own thing. A pack of pedantic fools on the internet isn't the best source of guidance.

Little Billy,
Pedantic Fool at Large.

[Aidron]

But why would you want to "follow"?

Do your own thing. A pack of pedantic fools on the internet isn't the best source of guidance.

Little Billy,
Pedantic Fool at Large.

Everyone is a follower to some degree and everyone must follow at some point. There is not inherent villainy or nobility in following or leading, each has it rewards and consequences.

[Little Billy]

Everyone is a follower to some degree and everyone must follow at some point. There is not inherent villainy or nobility in following or leading, each has it rewards and consequences.

I prefer to wander around lost. If anyone wants to follow me, well, that's their lookout.

As for following, I spent decades following what turned out to be a vicious lie.

[Amber Wynd]

I have read on several sites that some believe in order to truly follow this path, one must belong to a Coven as solidarity is not recognized as "following". Is this a personal choice or is it just a give in to belong to a Coven? One place I read was pretty set on belonging to a Coven and why it was so necassary.
That's their opinion and it's a valid one, but so is whatever you decide would work best for you. I'm not comfortable in a coven setting, and so I'm a solitary practitioner. Many other people feel that they are more comfortable belonging to a group or a coven. I suspect that some people join just to give in, while others truly believe it's the right venue for them. That's the beauty in freedom of choice. It's a two-edged sword though. If we want freedom, we must allow others to have it, as well.

I also have to object a wee bit to the idea that there must be rules in every religion. Or the implication, hopefully unintended, that if one follows one's own heart in delveloping an individual system of worship, that this leads to a religious free-for-all. My personal Goddess isn't exactly big on rules and regulations.

[Walking Spirit]

Ok then,

Yes I meant "Pagan" - still looking into the whole of it rather than specifics at this point - but the Coven part was general in my readings as well, and not specific. I, am using the word path in this post a direction not as somewhere to follow - if that makes sense at all! What I was reading in several areas was in regrards to the general subject (if you will) of being a Pagan (not Wiccan in this case). I personally have chosen not to go this route (as far as joining anything). But was curious because some that I have spoken to have been very insistant that you have to be involved in your "Pagan Community" and to support it in order to be fully accepted. I am sure this is a bunch of mumble at this point - but I am currently going on little sleep!

[White West]

I shall warn you now I am strongly opposed to all 'organised religions' (Aquarians are notorious independants), which are very capable of leading people up the garden..umm..path. So it needs to be made clear that (getting back to the original question) You do not have to belong to a coven if you don't want to and it is perfectly respectable not to do so! It is not a pre-recqusite (can't spell) of Paganism that you must follow your own Path so much as the beauty of Paganism that you can.
Having said all of that, being in a coven I'm sure has many advantages (not that I've ever been in one), so its up to you to decide if its for you. The people writing the website seem to feel very strongly for 'conformitism' (Christians in another life?) and so are obviously going to want to convince you to also 'conform'- for lack of a better word

[Little Billy]

The people writing the website seem to feel very strongly for 'conformitism' (Christians in another life?) and so are obviously going to want to convince you to also 'conform'- for lack of a better word

Exactly. And thus, neo-Paganism becomes a t-shirt and a haircut.

[Crimson Mage]

Let me try and break this down in a different way using Christianity as the example.

Christian faiths all believe in some version of the Holy Trinity (Father,Son,Holy Ghost), but all treat this a little differently. Catholics have their rules, Protestants have others, Methodists others, and Baptists others as well. To be a part of thier congregations you must follow certain rules and believe certain things. This is no different from Covens really. And a Catholic would tell you youre not a good Christian unless you follow their way of thinking.

Now think of the person who believes in the Holy Trinity, but doesnt attend any specific church. Is that person any less of a Christian? The answer to that is no, although the Catholic would tell you yes. The terminology isnt used, but what this person is -- is a solitary Christian.

The same can be said about Pagans, the specific Paths, and Covens --- it works the same way. Does that make the Solitary any less of a Pagan?

[BabyBird]

Now think of the person who believes in the Holy Trinity, but doesnt attend any specific church. Is that person any less of a Christian? The answer to that is no, although the Catholic would tell you yes. The terminology isnt used, but what this person is -- is a solitary Christian.

The same can be said about Pagans, the specific Paths, and Covens --- it works the same way. Does that make the Solitary any less of a Pagan?
I'm not sure if Christianity is a good comparison. Christianity is a revealed religion, while certain pagan paths are mystery religions (Wicca in particular). To be a Christian all you have to do is accept Jesus Christ as your savior. To be a Wiccan (or a member of any mystery religion) you need to be initiated into a group that knows the Mysteries.

So, yeah, some paths do require covens. Some don't. It's not about conforming, it's about knowing what is potentially a big part of your professed religion. (Of course, without knowing these mysteries, one can't know how important they are to a particular path.)

So, Walking Spirit, like most people here have said, it depends on the path.

[Aidron]

I prefer to wander around lost. If anyone wants to follow me, well, that's their lookout.

As for following, I spent decades following what turned out to be a vicious lie.

You are following now, the rules of grammar for one. You are also following others spiritually, for you are not the first to leave Christianity. As I said, we are all followers in some way.

[Vincent Verthaine]

We discordians don't have covens,we have cabals.
For us a cabal is a group of discordians that gets together to explore Eris and perfom O:M's.

We are spiritual ontological guerilla warfare splinter cells,each dedicated to combatting Greyface in their own way.

We have no central hierarchy.
We have no leaders.

Most members are considered L.D.D.-The Legion of Dynamic Discord.
(or Lotsa Deluded Dopes,according to Hagbard Celine,either one is valid)

Discordian members of distinguished merit (The Eristocracy) are refered to as,
(in no particaular order)

Non-Prophets
Polyfathers/mothers
Ancient Wiseguys/gals
High Papassas
Chaos Masters/Mistresses
Erisian Paladins
Fendersons
Discordia's Go-to-Guys
And Dave.


Each individual cabal chooses its own internal structure,creates it's own rules(if any),and even writes it's own holy books.

The principia Discordia is only an "Introduction to the Erisian Mysterees",and we have advanced in fifty years to have
"Advanced Courses Into the Thee Erisian Mysterees".

{The Book of Eris,The Book Of Chaos and It's Virtue,The Metaclysmia Discordia,The Discordian Book Of Life,The Apocrypha Discordia,and The Discordian Coloring Book are just a few of them}

[Cain]

And of course if you find yourself in disagreement with parts of the Principia and have your own conception of Eris and Discordianism then you can declare yourself an Episkopos and take your own path

[Amber Wynd]

And of course if you find yourself in disagreement with parts of the Principia and have your own conception of Eris and Discordianism then you can declare yourself an Episkopos and take your own path
Exactly. I did just this and became Episkopos of the D.S.S.S., although I'm also the High Papessa of the Church of Eris. All of which means I take my own path, except when I don't feel like it or become bored - in which case I get to try and boss other Discordians around and if they feel like they either listen to me. Or not.

Mostly not. :lol:

[eldora_avalon]

You are following now, the rules of grammar for one. You are also following others spiritually, for you are not the first to leave Christianity. As I said, we are all followers in some way.

He didn't say he left xianity, you assumed that. As near as I can tell, Little Billy doesn't follow anyone.

edit: so he might have said it in another thread, now I am confused, snafu, hehehe, thanks partly to nyquil and sinuses full of snot

[RainInanna]

No, "coven" is generally a Wiccan/witchcraft concept, so it's not required for all Pagans.

But was curious because some that I have spoken to have been very insistant that you have to be involved in your "Pagan Community" and to support it in order to be fully accepted

You'll find a lot of solitaries around MW. Working within a group is not for everyone, let alone a structured group such as a coven. I can think of a lot of good reasons to be part of a coven, and it is required for certain specific paths like Gardnerian Wicca, but no it is not necessary to Paganism.

[eldora_avalon]

Personally, I really really hate anyone telling me what to do ever. This includes parents, my husband, my doctor and any religious anyone. As I was starting my study of Wicca, I became disillusioned because of all the complicated rituals. I have never been part of a coven. I am a member of the Church of Eris, which doesn't have any responsibilities, other than explaining Eris to people, which I do anyway. There is no physical church, so there are no meetings, no need to collect money for anything. Oh, yeah, covens collect money, did you miss that part? I'm sure in most cases it is for supplies and is not excessive, but I am also sure there are pagan equivilants of the vatican.

Anyway, to answer the original question, you do not need to join or in any other way belong to or be initiated into a coven or any other group. If you want to and you feel you would feel closer to some entity, god, goddess or whatever, that it would benefit you, go for it. If you don't want to, and it sounds like you don't, resist the pressure, from websites, people or books. The only wicca/pagan books I really like are by Scott Cunningham. He died as this whole thing was blooming. He explained everything and was never pompous. He gave options for the way to do things. I am more of a kitchen witch than a wiccan. If I am going to do a spell, I go into my kitchen and grab some stuff and throw it together and it works. I think it helps to have a friend or mentor to talk to, but a formal coven isn't necessary. With this website you have lots of friends and mentors ;)

[RainInanna]

Oh, yeah, covens collect money, did you miss that part? I'm sure in most cases it is for supplies and is not excessive, but I am also sure there are pagan equivilants of the vatican.

Err, some covens ask for donations, and it is usually in order to cover costs such as renting room for the meetings, supplies and ingredients used in rituals, etc. It is usually requested, not demanded, and each person's financial situation is usually considered. I'm sure there could be Wiccan covens who take advantage but I wouldn't want anyone to think covens are always money-grabbing operations.

[Walking Spirit]

I think, after some personal thought, that I would prefer to stay solitary. Though I still feel as though I am in a "spiritual crisis" because I haven't found where I want to be. I think though that maybe that is where I am supposed to be (if that makes sense) I have done some research into the branches of Paganism and find bits of everything. I can't seem to find one that I want to commit too. My main focus is nature and the respect that follows to everything involved. Rituals aren't really a concern of mine right now.

[eldora_avalon]

Though I still feel as though I am in a "spiritual crisis" because I haven't found where I want to be.

Perfectly normal human reaction to change and the unknown. Just try to relax and the answers will come. Keep asking questions, it sounds like you are on the right track.

[Aidron]

He didn't say he left xianity, you assumed that. As near as I can tell, Little Billy doesn't follow anyone.

edit: so he might have said it in another thread, now I am confused, snafu, hehehe, thanks partly to nyquil and sinuses full of snot

He did, or that is what I was led to believe. [shrugs]

Regardless, everyone is a follower in some fashion. Nothing wrong with it. If you don't follow at some point you'll never be able to benefit from the wisdom of others, and everyone benfits from that at some point.

[RainInanna]

Sounds like a great idea, Walking Spirit. Maybe after a few years you will decide you want to look into traditional Wicca and will find a coven you want to work with, but maybe not :) There is no reason you have to if you don't want to, and you probably shouldn't if you haven't settled on a specific religion.

I studied bits and pieces of Paganism as a solitary for about 8 years before I recently decided to look into finding a coven.

[BeigeAllen]

Wow, so much confusion about one simple word. Okay, here is the result of my personal research into the subject. Take it as you wish.

First a little simple elementary school grammar for everyone. The suffix -ism means that you are talking about a distinctive doctrine, system, or theory. When it comes to Pagans there is no one unifying distinctive doctrine, system, or theory. There are over 2500 different religions, theosophies, and belief systems, as well as a variety of individual practices that are classed as being Pagan. Which is why people get the idea that there are no rules to being a Pagan.

Now, each of those 2500 paths has their own "rules" and some have a lot more than others. There are some Pagan paths that you cannot practice alone, their rules forbid it. This does not stop a lot of people from inventing their own versions of these paths.

Gypsies are the most common example. The Roma people, the caravan dwelling travelers of lore, share an ethnic heritage. We are a mostly olive skinned people who trace our history back to India, and we are still hunting for where we actually began. We do not call ourselves Gypsies. The ones you meet at Pagan festivals and Renaissance fairs are most often Gaje (non Roma) who are so in love with our history and lore that they have styled their beliefs around what they think the Roma are.

You will encounter many forms of "Gypsies", Odin-worshippers, Goddess-worshippers, etc. Not all of them are people you would want to invite home to dinner. This has lead to even greater segregations among Pagans. While some segregating is a good thing, the groups, once they split, seldom come to work together again.

We have to begin to find some common ground among ourselves. Without some true community among Pagans, we will always remain a fringe group. The Roma people (yes I am a Roma) had to do the same thing. Though we are literally all over the planet now, we formed a union among our peoples through the use of the Internet. We come out in large groups to protest not only ills against our people, but since 1999, when our ways were officially listed under the heading of "pagan beliefs" we began reaching out to help the pagans who honor us at least in the inventiveness of their ideas about us.

Organization among us is not necessarily going to be a bad thing either. Look at the Native Americans, they had to organize under the rules of their conquerors to be able to rise in the new systems. Some changes cannot be fought, and organization among our paths is something we have to figure out.

I have heard so many times on so many other boards what people are not willing to give up. Great, got those notes. Okay, what I would like to hear from you folks who are so passionate is what would you consider a good way for pagans to be organized. What would it take to thaw you out?

Now, please, no one get offended by my comments, no offense is meant. I am not on a high horse or a soapbox, I just have high ideals and my hobby is trying to reach them. I put it all my research and results on the website I have linked in my banner, check it out if you get bored. Anyway, the point I am trying to get to is that maybe if we start on the small level to talk about what we would like to see organized among Pagans and what we must not organize at all (with discordians and a few others we will have to confuse what we want organized, they are about a contrary bunch but we love em at parties). So give me your best shots folks, I love a challenge.

[BeigeAllen]

As an example of how many different types of pagans there are, I put togeth a list of all the titles that Pagan practitioners use to describe themselves, if I missed any, please add them.
:cheers:
Alchemist: Alchemy was the forerunner of modern chemistry, blending Egyptian metallurgy with Greek philosophy and Middle Eastern Mysticism. The goals of Alchemists were the discovery of the "Philosopher's Stone" that would transform "base metals" into gold and the "Elixir of Life" that would heal all ills and allow one to live forever. Modern Alchemists still lean heavily on the hard science approach to their magic(k) but now see the Philosopher's Stone as a spiritual quest more than a search for a physical object.
Bard: In Ancient Celtic traditions, Bards were the poets, singers, and musicians that were headed by the Druids. Bards used their gifts of rhyme and rhythm for the glory of whatever deity inspired them. With over 400 Celtic deities to choose from, that a lot of inspiration! Modern Bards are often found at the Gatherings, any public Pagan event where they can play for a meal and a night's entertainment draws them like butterflies to buttercups. Their magic(k) is their music and/or poetry. When they write rituals of their own they are more like stage productions, but their flair is part of their way.
Cunning Man/Woman: From Norse cunna "to know" and Old English kenning "understanding". The term was applied to resident spiritualists and healers of small towns in England since the late Middle Ages. Modern counterparts are wise men/women, crones, hedge witches, and kitchen witches. They fulfill the same functions as Shamen but they are usually self taught or family taught.
Cybermancer: Also known as a Technopagan or Technomage. These are most often the Webmasters for the groups they are in. You call them when you need advice for you own computer. They have the equivalent of the Library of Alexandria stored on their hard drives and know their way around the Internet as if by magic(k). They often do not lead in rits but they put together all the handouts and probably did the planning for much of the ritual.
Druid: Druids were the highly trained priest class of the Celtic tribes. They were the intellectual elite of their people. If you are going to claim this title you should remember to be as physical as you are bookish.
Enchanter/Enchantress: Their magic(k) and spirit is that of a social nature. You will never find them as solitaires simply because they have too much fun in crowds. They are "bewitching", fascinating, charming, and appealing. Theirs is the magic(k) of attraction, and they seem to know how to make themselves into candle flames to attract others.
Mage: Masters of magic(k)al arts. Practitioners of many forms of magic(k). Mages are as content with formal ritual as they are with informal hedge witchery. Some title themselves Magi as they style themselves as "priests" of some form. Sages were students of life in their youth and their magic(k)al style reflects the places they have traveled.
Magician: Basically, anyone who practices either magic or magic(k) as well as those who practice both.
Mystic: From Greek mystai "initiated into Mysteries". A person whose profound spiritual or "otherworldly" experiences have given them a deep intuitive comprehension or vision of hidden truths and awareness. Their form of magic(k) is often chaotic and hard for them to teach to others but it works very well for them. Often Mystics have undergone great trauma in their lives which strengthens them spiritually.
Necromancer: One who conjures up the spirits of the dead to learn from them. Necromancers often are able to foretell the future in some limited ways. Modern terms for the Necromancers would include Channellers or Mediums, however there is a growing number of students of these arts that prefer the classical term.
Philosopher: Those who endlessly contemplate the underlying principles and nature of "life, the universe, and everything". They seek to apply wisdom, reason, and knowledge to every aspect of life and society, and are well known for being great teachers.
Prophets: Yes there are Pagan prophets. They are great teachers known for their visions and revelations. The speak as if inspired by someone else, and some of them even assert they are inspired by the Divine. The variety of aspects of the Divine by which it chooses to inspire the prophets can often be entertaining to others. The best ones often transform their small corners of the world into something better.
Priest/Priestess: These folks have pledged themselves to the service of a specific God/dess. They often model themselves after a particular manifestation or aspect of their chosen deity.
Sage: From Middle Ages Latin Saga "Sorceress". Elder Pagan of sound judgment who achieved wisdom through reflection and experience. Some may call themselves Sages, but often Sages are past the point of caring about a title. Call them what it suits you to call them and they will agree with it while educating you as to why it doesn't exactly fit them. Sages are often savants in multiple areas, a scholar, and often a philosopher and/or teacher.
Seer/Soothsayer: An old word for visionaries and fortunetellers; basically anyone that could "see forward" as well as seeing behind. Modern Soothsayers are students of multiple forms of divination.
Shaman: Spiritual leaders of traditional tribal cultures. Also known as medicine men/women, and in a few places at "Witch Doctors" who are both gifted and learned in skills of divination, herbalism, hypnosis, psychic work, and sorcery. They are the village teachers, magicians, spirit guides, healers, and midwives.
Sorcerer/Sorceress: These folks are charmers, both magic(k)ally and in the mundane world. They do not always use their talents in a manner that is positive for others, but things always seem to work out well for them. The folks often have a strong tie with both the many people and animals they surround themselves with.
Vizier: From Arabic "bearer of burdens". This title was once reserved for the chief minister or top advisor to the king. This title often is used as a synonym for "Court Wizard". In all ways a Vizier is identical to a Wizard, though many modern Viziers include hand etched scrolls in their libraries, while other styles of Wizards prefer intricate Grimoires and Compendiums.
Witch: Most common title. Can be applied to any student of any field of magic(k).
Wizard: From the Anglo Saxon wysard "wise one". Wizards are solitary lore masters, usually surrounding themselves with extensive libraries of occult knowledge, esoterica, arts, and sciences. Their magic(k)al practices are more science based than most and resemble experiments more than rituals.

[Crimson Mage]

The more I read of this thread, the more it seems people want to poke a hole in every other person's way of doing things, or the more I see some form of this statement:
"I am _______(insert your path here), and we dont do things that way".

This has got to be frustrating for the original poster of this question to get a straight answer, because every time one's given...someone else comes along and says "that doesnt apply to ____".

To the original poster i will say this - consider the source you are gaining your information from. the answer you get will be totally dependent on that. If you are reading the website of some online school or online coven, or organized tradition you are going to be told that a membership in their coven or group is what you need to have. Of course thats what will be said, for the simple fact youre getting the info from a group that is already bestowing memberships.

If you talk to an individual who is not a member of any group, then youll be told you dont need to join anything. Of course youll get that answer, because youre talking to a solitary.

No one is doing this with any malice in mind, it is happening because there are SOOOOOO many different points of view, and soooo many different traditions out there. We all believe ours is the right way, and would most certainly advise you of that.

The CORRECT answer to your question is that none of us can tell you what is right for you, only you can do that. Its all about YOUR needs. That sounds like I am avoiding the answer, but I'm not, its truly the best one anyone can give you. If your path leads you to become part of an organized group, they become part of it if it suits you. If your path takes you down a solitary road -- follow it. If your path leads you on a solitary journey, with occasional group rituals with other members of a CUUPS chapter for example, then do that. It does not make you any less of a Pagan to follow any of the paths I just mentioned, or some other one that only you know at the moment - you are equally Pagan no matter how you choose to go about it.

[Astara Seague]

my opinion is no you do not have to join a coven, some people dont need that kind of group interaction, and others do..its kind of like the traditional religions, some have to go sit in a church and be preached to others dont need to ..its all about what is inside of your heart.

[Walking Spirit]

Thank you to those that answered my original question. I appreciate it.

[Nacken]

I'm certainly not interested in trying to convert others into following my tradition although I'm British Traditional Wicca and belong to a coven. I've had too many people try to convert me to their religious beliefs. Being in a coven isn't for everyone. There are good and bad points about it. It suits me, but I've seen others that it isn't a good fit for. As long as you don't call yourself something that you haven't earned and been initiated for, it is your business.

[Little Billy]

As long as you don't call yourself something that you haven't earned and been initiated for, it is your business.

How does one know if they've earned/been initiated a title, in a religion(s) with no set orthodoxies?

I mean, I could call myself a high priest, or a grand druid, or the King of Cheese...and what criteria would anyone have to naysay me?

[BeigeAllen]

How does one know if they've earned/been initiated a title, in a religion(s) with no set orthodoxies?

I mean, I could call myself a high priest, or a grand druid, or the King of Cheese...and what criteria would anyone have to naysay me?
Well until and unless you say otherwise, if you are following an individual path you could theoretically call yourself anything you wanted and there would be no problem unless and until you wanted to socialize with others who also called themselves by that same title. Then you would be judged according to what that title means to each and every one of them. No two of them are going to agree, and most are going to define what makes a person that title by what favors them above you.

Of course, you could always choose to not interact with the other Kings and Queens of Cheese, that would also be entirely your right. Its just your right to be a King of Cheese would be called into question by the rest of them who have the same right to believe they are superior Kings and Queens of Cheese. This could lead to the start of Cheese Wars and we'd all be in deep gouda then.

[Sun_and_Saturn]

How does one know if they've earned/been initiated a title, in a religion(s) with no set orthodoxies?

An example would be a newbie going around telling the whole world that she is a witch, can hex people, and claiming to be a high priestess, when she doesn't even know how to call quarters or conduct a basic ritual for that matter, doesn't know how to enter a circle, or consults people in her group for help/knowledge of things that she SHOULD know but can't be bothered to get off her ass at any point in the day and look it up and learn for herself. That tends to piss off some people that have dedicated years of time, effort and service to the religion/path. :) (can you tell I've had some experience with these kinds of people?!)

Sure you can claim to be anything you want, but it's best not to claim knowledge that you don't have; because sooner or later someone will call you on it. Then you'll really look like a fool. You'll know when you've earned it.

[Cain]

How does one know if they've earned/been initiated a title, in a religion(s) with no set orthodoxies?

I mean, I could call myself a high priest, or a grand druid, or the King of Cheese...and what criteria would anyone have to naysay me?

Its a good point. Alot of that happens in the Martial Arts commnity, someone studies for a year or two in a couple of disciplines, leaves and then starts up their own schools because they like to be boss and think they've somehow earnt the right. The syllabus is usually two steps from identical to the original art also...

[Nacken]

Sure you can call yourself what you want but doesn't mean that others will recognize your self made degrees or dedications. I'm from a trad that doesn't recognize self initiation. We might call it a self dedication. There are a number of people who call themselves lord this or lady that without having done anything we would recognize as earning that right. It is considered in poor taste, but nothing will be done to you other than people would treat you with some distaste. Anyhow that sort of thing is dealt with in other threads.

[smckim]

I would have to say no, you don't need a coven, since I have been a practicing solitary for what will be 18 years this year. I do have friends, who are in covens and I have enjoyed some celebrations with them.

[morningstar2651]

How does one know if they've earned/been initiated a title, in a religion(s) with no set orthodoxies?

I mean, I could call myself a high priest, or a grand druid, or the King of Cheese...and what criteria would anyone have to naysay me?Titles don't mean much of anything outside of the group they were earned in.

Also, titles do not impress elders.

I'm wary of people that list off as many titles as possible when they introduce theirself to me. I have many achievements too, but I don't need to advertize them for the world to see.

[Sun_and_Saturn]

I'm wary of people that list off as many titles as possible when they introduce theirself to me. I have many achievements too, but I don't need to advertize them for the world to see.

good advice!

[semi]

I'm not Wiccan or a Witch, but I think you should join a coven if you feel a need to do so or don't join one if you don't. It's your choice. You mention that solitary practice isn't recognized by some folks as being legit. So? Why care what they think about what you do? Do whatever you want to.

Titles have also been mentioned on this thread and I agree that titles are meaningless. I am the head of a spiritual house. I have several titles. They mean nothing. Individuals matter, their skills matter, their knowledge and experience, their wisdom and understanding, not their titles. Huge amounts of knowledge have been revealed to me and I feel dwarfed by it all. Sometimes I feel like the thing I'm learning the most is how much I really don't know. When one mystery is revealed to me and I begin to understand it, I find a dozen more mysteries inside it. I have attained titles and crap like that, but all I really feel is that I have graduated from kindergarden to the first grade, at best. Power, skill, and experience are in the individual, not in the individual's title. Trust in what you feel the person is, not in what they say they are.

[Walking Spirit]

well said and appreciated. Thank you.

[Little Billy]

Titles don't mean much of anything outside of the group they were earned in.

Also, titles do not impress elders.

I'm wary of people that list off as many titles as possible when they introduce theirself to me. I have many achievements too, but I don't need to advertize them for the world to see.

What's an Elder, in this context? And how do I know that the person in question is REALLY an elder, or just claiming to be one?

[morningstar2651]

What's an Elder, in this context? And how do I know that the person in question is REALLY an elder, or just claiming to be one?
I'm partial to the definition by Isaac Bonewits.

Based on the feedback from the earlier versions of this essay, I'm going to open by defining how I am using the terms "senior," "elder," and "Elder." The first term, "senior," can refer to anyone over 55 or 60 years of age in a modern Western culture. The second, "elder" with-a-small-e, can refer to someone who has taken a leadership role in a coven, temple, grove, or other religious community; usually it carries an assumption that the person so refered to has more years of religious training and/or experience than the bulk of the group. When I use "Elder" with-a-capital-E, I'm refering to a combination of the first two terms. A Pagan Elder, therefore, is someone who has devoted most of his or her life to serving a local, regional, national, or even international Pagan community, earning many of their grey hairs in the process, and who is now getting slow and creaky (if not cranky).

[Philosophia]

There is no rush to go in a coven. If you feel like you're ready then do so. If prefer being solitary then stay that way.
You don't even have to join a "coven" if you want contact with other pagans. Sometimes there are "get together's", or moots, where pagans gather around and discuss different topics, etc..

[Kalika]

It's up to each individual to determine what they "need" on their path.

If you don't feel that a coven is for you, then it probably isn't.

[DebLipp]

But was curious because some that I have spoken to have been very insistant that you have to be involved in your "Pagan Community" and to support it in order to be fully accepted
When people say "Pagan community," they don't mean a specific coven or group, they mean the community as a whole. A coven (or grove, circle, etc.) is like your family. The community is like the town in which you live.

Many Pagans strongly encourage community involvement, and ask (or insist) that you support the Pagan community as part of your Paganism. Not as your worship group (which would be your coven or grove or your solitary practice), but in addition.

It is probably true that if you don't want to participate in the Pagan community there will be people who won't accept you. OTOH, if you're not participating in the community, how would you know? Where would you encounter them?

[Aidron]

It is probably true that if you don't want to participate in the Pagan community there will be people who won't accept you. OTOH, if you're not participating in the community, how would you know? Where would you encounter them?

Indeed, but an important distinction seems to be made on the part of some people. There are of course those whom believe if you do not take up the Pagan banner of pride and wave it fiercely (i.e. taking up Pagan causes, taking on an almost activist mindset for Paganism or percieved Pagan causes) then you are not truly Pagan and as such are a pariah within the Pagan community at large.

Here's to being a pariah though. [shrugs]

[MorningDove030202]

To Coven or Not To Coven

I think the real question would be, Do I want to be in a Coven right now on my path? Right now, you may not be ready, you may not have the time, there may be other things you need to focus on. There is always later. I wouldn't sware off ever joining a coven ever.

What I would do is find out what groups are near you, go to some open events, rituals, workshops to experience what different groups are like. If you find something that you "fall in love with" then you have your answer. If you don't then that's your answere too.

I'm applying to join a coven in Febuary, it's a new coven in formation, but there are others of the same tradition that I've been attending open events at for about 4 years. It took me 4 years to decide that It's the right place for me, and now is the right time. 4 years ago I was pregnant and unemployed.....not the ideal situation for looking into covens, I had mundane issues to contend with first. I guess what I'm saying, is that when and if you find the right group you will know. It's alot like falling in love.

Dove

[DebLipp]

How does one know if they've earned/been initiated a title, in a religion(s) with no set orthodoxies?


Paganism isn't "a" religion, it's many. And many of those religions have very specific criteria as to what constitutes earning a title and who is (and is not) entitled to grant it.


I mean, I could call myself a high priest, or a grand druid, or the King of Cheese...and what criteria would anyone have to naysay me?
You could also call yourself a Harvard Ph.D., but Harvard might say otherwise. Just so, those religions and traditions that grant titles are able to, and do, point out fraudulent claims when they appear.

Now, you can call yourself the "grand druid of my own made-up druidism" and no one will naysay you. But if you call yourself Archdruid of ADF, Skip Ellison, the elected Archdruid, will say otherwise.

[DebLipp]

Indeed, but an important distinction seems to be made on the part of some people. There are of course those whom believe if you do not take up the Pagan banner of pride and wave it fiercely (i.e. taking up Pagan causes, taking on an almost activist mindset for Paganism or percieved Pagan causes) then you are not truly Pagan and as such are a pariah within the Pagan community at large.

Here's to being a pariah though. [shrugs]

Like I said before, it's self-selecting. There are a small number of people to whom you will be a pariah if you don't do things their way. And, since you don't want to do things their way, you'll never much notice them or be bothered by their ostracism of you.

[Little Billy]

Paganism isn't "a" religion, it's many. And many of those religions have very specific criteria as to what constitutes earning a title and who is (and is not) entitled to grant it.


You could also call yourself a Harvard Ph.D., but Harvard might say otherwise. Just so, those religions and traditions that grant titles are able to, and do, point out fraudulent claims when they appear.

Now, you can call yourself the "grand druid of my own made-up druidism" and no one will naysay you. But if you call yourself Archdruid of ADF, Skip Ellison, the elected Archdruid, will say otherwise.

ELECTED druids?

[DebLipp]

ELECTED druids?
All officers of ADF are elected by the membership, including the Archdruid. You can read about ADF on their website (http://www.adf.org).

[Little Billy]

All officers of ADF are elected by the membership, including the Archdruid. You can read about ADF on their website (http://www.adf.org).

Thanks. Just seems kinda weird, is all.

::goes off to read link::

[Kudzu]

Yes I meant "Pagan" [...] What I was reading in several areas was in regrards to the general subject (if you will) of being a Pagan (not Wiccan in this case). I personally have chosen not to go this route (as far as joining anything). But was curious because some that I have spoken to have been very insistant that you have to be involved in your "Pagan Community" and to support it in order to be fully accepted.

I consider my beliefs to be on the pro-Coven end of the spectrum, because I believe one may only become Wiccan through a Coven... But to generalize that to everything "Pagan" goes way too far, even for me! As a Pagan, you really don't owe anything to whoever decides that they are your community members. It is quite acceptable to be fulfilled as a solitary Pagan! I haven't heard otherwise, and I've chosen to be involved in the "Community" for years.

[The Good Rev. Roger]

No, You don't need any coven unless you like to socialize.

If you learn better around other human beings, then joining a coven might just be what the doctor ordered.

But if you walk a solitary path, that's the worst thing you can do.

Seek and you will find the answers.


~~~~~BB

:santasmil

[Little Billy]

No, You don't need any coven unless you like to socialize.

If you learn better around other human beings, then joining a coven might just be what the doctor ordered.

But if you walk a solitary path, that's the worst thing you can do.

Seek and you will find the answers.


~~~~~BB

:santasmil

You're not bad, for a thief.

[The Good Rev. Roger]

You're not bad, for a thief.


I stole from you. I don't think so.

Why didn't I steal from you? I might be your nex-door neighbor. We are all in a world community.

Back to the coven topic. I was accidentially initiated into one many years back. I quit when I saw what they did. I guess we just had different philosophies of life, but we could still share the same planet,

Good luck in your quest.



~~~~~BB
:hahugh:

[Little Billy]

I stole from you. I don't think so.

Why didn't I steal from you?

Actually, no so much theft as copyright violation.

Seems that the moniker you stole WAS, in fact, copyrighted along with the MSY series.

I guess you should have read this: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?postid=130184&postcount=1

So I reported you. For starters.

Hope you enjoyed your troll.

[Morgandria]

Initiation is generally a very deliberate act. How exactly does one get "accidentally" initiated? :eyebrow:

[SilentDreams]

Okay well this is the type of thing that depends on what path you're following. Gardnerian Wiccans(if I remember correctly) do need to belong to a coven. But thats the only Wiccan path I really know of that is like that. But I don't even know what path you're following. If you're just a general/ecclectic pagan then you can join one if you like but its not nessecary.

[DebLipp]

Okay well this is the type of thing that depends on what path you're following. Gardnerian Wiccans(if I remember correctly) do need to belong to a coven. But thats the only Wiccan path I really know of that is like that. But I don't even know what path you're following. If you're just a general/ecclectic pagan then you can join one if you like but its not nessecary.
Any of the British Traditional Wiccan trads would require initiation into a valid coven in order to be considered a part of that trad. These would include Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Mohsian, CVW, etc. Many other trads—Blue Star comes to mind—would require initiation to be in a coven, but might not require ongoing commitment to a coven.

A coven is more than a social group. It is a whole greater than the sum of its parts. To say that if you aren't that into socializing a coven has nothing to offer is like saying if you aren't that into sex a marriage has nothing to offer. A coven is an intricate and intimate relationship and source of power. It's not for everyone, but it's not the same as a club or a party.

[Ben Gruagach]

There is a rather lengthy discussion on the topic of solitary versus coven, initiated versus not formally initiated within a Wiccan context over here at MysticWicks. (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=120083)

Just thought people might find it interesting.