Are there Prophets of God among us today? [Archive] - Page 2 - MysticWicks Online Pagan Community and Spiritual Sanctuary

Tobias

March 8th, 2006, 03:02 PM

I have thought long about this post.
I say this with the utmost respect, for a christian you certainly walk a pagan path. I think from now on in my mind you are a pagan who follows the god of your choice. Your god just happens to be Elohim.

Thank you. I've seen a lot of commonality between my path and the pagan one, ever since I was able to get past the "worshiping other gods" thing. I feel more comfortable hanging out here than I do on most Christian forums.

I learn more here too. It seems that many of you have had much more practical experience dealing with your gods that other xians take the time to talk about. Or at least, experiences in new and different ways.

Is my god Elohim??? He certainly is comfortable wearing that mask. He came to me first as the Christan God (I would have accepted no other); and continually refers me back to the foundations I learned there. But for me to accept Paganism, he started showing me his ability to appear to me as other god types like the Mother Goddess and well, Satan (as worshiped by some satanists).

I don't think all the gods are one; but I do get the impression that they present themselves to us in ways that we can both accept them (based upon our preconceived religious expectations), yet be challenged by them for who they are.

I now admit I have been waiting for you to start preaching, and you have not, you have answered some very tough questions that could have been traps, and you answered the openly and honestly. This I respect.
If ever you need someone to defend you on this site, call me.
Do you have any questions about me and my path?

Yes, I am interested in you path. Do you have any other threads around here where you've talked about it in any detail?

I feel like I've taken over this thread, and am dangerously close to sounding like someone who's favorite topic to talk about is himself. LOL But, I suppose it's all been relevant so far to the question posted: "Are there Prophets of God among us today?" Jerry didn't appear to be available, so I jumped in. :)

Also, it's taken this much to convince some of you that it is possible to gain a certain amount of mystical knowledge and experience within Christianity. Not all xians sit around twiddling their thumbs and enjoying their "saved" status. Some do actually try and pursue a relationship with their god, and a working knowledge of the spiritual world around them. You wouldn't know it if you met them though, because all they'd care to talk about is your need for salvation. I imagine if Jerry showed up the entire focus of this conversation would then shift to his belief in the necessary atonement of Jesus' blood; spiritual experiences and any possible commonalities between your two worlds would be cast aside.

Tobias

March 8th, 2006, 03:18 PM

Tobias we call what you are experiencing an UPG in the pagan community, which means an unverifable personal gnosis. You believe because you have experienced your god(s) but have no proof for others. Since my religion is an experientual one this is a normal thing for us. Good wishes for your path.

Thank you Elderbush!

This brings up a good question. Do pagans have such a thing as Discernment? I mean, surely some people can tell when their god(s) are present. Some rituals are powerful, and some fall flat, right?

Perhaps there's no specific word to describe it, but I imagine some pagans develop the ability to know when the God/dess is present or not; and then learn how to modify the ritual to encourage positive results. Can anyone verify someone else's' UPG (as you call them)? Like, can someone else in a meeting look over and recognize that somebody else is getting blessed because Spirit is all around them?

I imagine this has to be so, because thats how things work in xian meetings. I'm curious to know what words you all use to describe it.

Oh, and what about speaking on behalf of the gods/goddesses? Does anyone develop this ability? How about the ability to discern which god is which?

Tobias

March 8th, 2006, 03:43 PM

Ptah

March 8th, 2006, 04:48 PM

While I'm firing off a bunch of questions, I have one too for Ptah if he doesn't mind. I hope this doesn't come across wrong, but I was wondering what is PC in the pagan community when it comes to using clergy labels from your religion?

I noticed that you call yourself a "Priest of Ptah and Sekhmet". Have you been "ordained" as such by your tradition; or have you adapted the meaning of the title to suit your own understanding of it?

I'm just curious. When I first took on the title of Prophet here, I was adapting the title based upon my own understanding of what a prophet is. I couldn't think of any other way to describe my relationship with my god. But then he showed me that he is branching me out in a definition of prophet that's understood by a few million other people. So I guess I feel better about using it, though I'll probably just stick to spelling it with a lower case "p", and only bring it up when relevant to the situation.

Ptah, you've challenged me a couple of times so I'm curious to know where you stand on this. Do you find my claim to be a prophet substantiated? How does it compare with your claim to be a Priest?

As a priest, I am a servant of both my diety, people who seek this path and people in general. I did not seek the position, I am a priest because it was demanded of me by Ptah and no other. No person could have made me one. As far as being ordained, when I formally accepted my position, I was "officially" ordained by fellow pagan clergy, in an open initiatory rite. This was important to others but not me. I did not use the title until it was officially bestowed on me. Its only a title, I do the very same things within the pagan community as I have always done. Nothing has changed except how some introduce me and now I can legally perform weddings.

I only ever denied that Jerry was a prophet (go back and reread). However, if you are preaching the same message, of which I haven't had any indication, then I would have reason to doubt the validity of your claim, also.

Heres my problem, prophets are prophets only in retrospect, after they are dead. Prophetic messages are always for the future and no one ever seems to heed them. So whats the point in calling yourself one?

I think what is being ignored here are the other gifts of wisdom; words of knowledge; healing; miracle-working; distinguishing of spirits; tongues; and interpretation of tongues. All of which are seperate gifts or talents from prophesy and BTW those gifts are not limited to the Christian charismatic community. Regardless, not everyone has the gift of prophesy, wisdom or words of knowledge, etal, but for some reason certain religious organizations think they can mill them out, like so much cord wood. Even worse is when someone like Jerry gets taught a vile theosophy and then claims that doctrine is prophesy. Jerry has nothing prophetic in his message, not a word.

So, I do my work daily as a servant to Ptah and Sekhmet, for those who need my help and I teach my students how to do the same. Thats what I do, I cannot, however, tell you how to compare what you do, to what I do.

Ptah

March 8th, 2006, 05:02 PM

Do pagans have such a thing as Discernment?

Absolutely, I discerned the spirit of hate in Jerry and the spirit of deception in MM.

Oh, and what about speaking on behalf of the gods/goddesses? Does anyone develop this ability? How about the ability to discern which god is which?

No one, that I know, claims to speak for any diety. Though, I have known some in the past who claimed they did. They're all gone now, removed from the spirituality they once sought, the power they strove for and the positions they once obtained.

I can't speak for everyone but in my case these gods are not invisible entities one must follow on faith alone. So, its not hard to tell which is which.

Tobias

March 8th, 2006, 09:32 PM

As a priest, I am a servant of both my diety, people who seek this path and people in general. I did not seek the position, I am a priest because it was demanded of me by Ptah and no other. No person could have made me one. As far as being ordained, when I formally accepted my position, I was "officially" ordained by fellow pagan clergy, in an open initiatory rite. This was important to others but not me. I did not use the title until it was officially bestowed on me. Its only a title, I do the very same things within the pagan community as I have always done. Nothing has changed except how some introduce me and now I can legally perform weddings.

Fair enough. Still, you're using the title of Priest in somewhat of a "reclaimed" capacity, right? You've already mentioned that you don't shave your body every day. I know Jewish Priests had to come from the lineage of Arron, and spent their time taking care of a temple that no longer exists. Catholic Priests have to meet certain other qualifications and be ordained by other priests or bishops. You say you were ordained by "fellow pagan clergy". Would this ordination have been considered acceptable by other priests of Ptah and/or Sekhmet back in the day? Do your duties as a priest mimic those of former priests in your tradition?

Heres my problem, prophets are prophets only in retrospect, after they are dead. Prophetic messages are always for the future and no one ever seems to heed them. So whats the point in calling yourself one?

Many Christians feel this way concerning prophets. There are even doctrines set in place that explain why God will no longer send prophets to speak for him. Most believe they are unnecessary because we now have a fully inspired Bible.

The Xians who feel this way have no concept of what it is to actually try to live the lifestyle of those whom the Bible was written about. They would rather tell bible stories to children about the Prophets of old; rather than listen to the message if God chose to send another one today.

I think it is a common misconception that Prophets foretell the future. Sure, some of what they say points to events that have yet to happen. But not all the prophets in the Bible were known for doing this. Elijah spoke that there would be no rain in Israel until he removed the curse. Then when he said it would rain, it did. Is that foretelling the future, or magick? Or, did he merely speak for God, so people would know what's going on?

Jonah prophesied that Nineveh would be destroyed in 3 days, but it didn't happen. He got the message wrong, and knew it. God's message to them (not a prediction), was that if they don't repent, they would be destroyed in 3 days.

Compare this with the New Testament prophets, and you can see a whole different side of "Prophecy". I swear, it seems like half of the Church thinks "Prophecy" means pouring over the Book of Revelation and Daniel day after day, trying to figure out what's going to happen next in Israel. Give me a break.

The Prophetic Movement has reclaimed the title of Prophet, and by applying it to people today has found that being a prophet means speaking for God, not prophesying the future. There's more than enough Biblical justification for this if you care to research it. Regardless, the title has been reclaimed and reused.

I think what is being ignored here are the other gifts of wisdom; words of knowledge; healing; miracle-working; distinguishing of spirits; tongues; and interpretation of tongues. All of which are separate gifts or talents from prophesy and BTW those gifts are not limited to the Christian charismatic community. Regardless, not everyone has the gift of prophesy, wisdom or words of knowledge, etal, but for some reason certain religious organizations think they can mill them out, like so much cord wood. .

I would be interested to compare how the pagan community works with these gifts. Some people obviously have them, and some don't, right? In what way to you feel xianity is working with them incorrectly?

No one, that I know, claims to speak for any diety. Though, I have known some in the past who claimed they did. They're all gone now, removed from the spirituality they once sought, the power they strove for and the positions they once obtained.

This is still your best argument yet against prophets. I don't know why things have been so different along your path than on mine. I'll keep it in mind as I press onward.

I can't speak for everyone but in my case these gods are not invisible entities one must follow on faith alone. So, its not hard to tell which is which.

I have never followed my god on "faith" alone. Still, it isn't that easy for me to always tell when he's speaking; or which other voices I hear belong to whom.

Hawk Shadowsoul

March 8th, 2006, 11:35 PM

Thank you. I've seen a lot of commonality between my path and the pagan one, ever since I was able to get past the "worshiping other gods" thing. I feel more comfortable hanging out here than I do on most Christian forums.

I learn more here too. It seems that many of you have had much more practical experience dealing with your gods that other xians take the time to talk about. Or at least, experiences in new and different ways.

Is my god Elohim??? He certainly is comfortable wearing that mask. He came to me first as the Christan God (I would have accepted no other); and continually refers me back to the foundations I learned there. But for me to accept Paganism, he started showing me his ability to appear to me as other god types like the Mother Goddess and well, Satan (as worshiped by some satanists).

I don't think all the gods are one; but I do get the impression that they present themselves to us in ways that we can both accept them (based upon our preconceived religious expectations), yet be challenged by them for who they are.

Yes, I am interested in you path. Do you have any other threads around here where you've talked about it in any detail?

I feel like I've taken over this thread, and am dangerously close to sounding like someone who's favorite topic to talk about is himself. LOL But, I suppose it's all been relevant so far to the question posted: "Are there Prophets of God among us today?" Jerry didn't appear to be available, so I jumped in. :)

Also, it's taken this much to convince some of you that it is possible to gain a certain amount of mystical knowledge and experience within Christianity. Not all xians sit around twiddling their thumbs and enjoying their "saved" status. Some do actually try and pursue a relationship with their god, and a working knowledge of the spiritual world around them. You wouldn't know it if you met them though, because all they'd care to talk about is your need for salvation. I imagine if Jerry showed up the entire focus of this conversation would then shift to his belief in the necessary atonement of Jesus' blood; spiritual experiences and any possible commonalities between your two worlds would be cast aside.
In answer, the only post I have ever made about my path is in this thread in response to mm. Some I will answer openly for all to see, others I will only answer in private. And as far as Jerry goes, if he exists at all, he is a fake and a hate monger. mm has proven himself for what he is. All he ever did was to promote Jerry and to insult us for being children. They are dismissed.
And I agree with your take on godesses and gods appearing as we can accept them.
And you have not taken over this thread. We have just hammered you with questions.
Now, ask me what you will. but first read my response to mm in this thread.

morningstar2651

March 9th, 2006, 01:38 AM

I think we scared mmauren off...oh well.

I gave the podcast a 1/5 rating on iTunes (http://phobos.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/com.apple.jingle.app.store.DirectAction/viewContentsUserReviews?pageNumber=0&type=Podcast&id=106493490&userReviewId=546859) about a day before he returned to the message board to rant (http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2394962&postcount=144).

He hasn't logged in for a couple of weeks. I think it's safe to say that he gave up.

Hawk Shadowsoul

March 9th, 2006, 02:23 AM

Ptah

March 9th, 2006, 10:38 AM

Fair enough. Still, you're using the title of Priest in somewhat of a "reclaimed" capacity, right?

It helps others define me, yes.

You say you were ordained by "fellow pagan clergy". Would this ordination have been considered acceptable by other priests of Ptah and/or Sekhmet back in the day?

I believe they would appreciate my efforts but there is no way to tell.

Do your duties as a priest mimic those of former priests in your tradition?

Yes, it does.

Many Christians ... <snip>...Daniel day after day, trying to figure out what's going to happen next in Israel. Give me a break.

If I can't use the bible and biblical accounts in this discussion then neither can you. You can't have it both ways.

The Prophetic Movement has reclaimed the title of Prophet, and by applying it to people today has found that being a prophet means speaking for God, not prophesying the future. There's more than enough Biblical justification for this if you care to research it. Regardless, the title has been reclaimed and reused.

You said earlier that you don't base your beliefs on the bible so don't use it as an authority. However, if you wish to use the title in a reclaimed context you must then prove to me that it is truly god speaking through you.

I would be interested to compare how the pagan community works with these gifts. Some people obviously have them, and some don't, right? In what way to you feel xianity is working with them incorrectly?

Don't try to put words in my mouth. This question is a logical fallacy, I never said anyone was using anything wrong.

Tobias

March 9th, 2006, 01:56 PM

It helps others define me, yes.

I believe they would appreciate my efforts but there is no way to tell.

Yes, it does.

If I can't use the bible and biblical accounts in this discussion then neither can you. You can't have it both ways.

You said earlier that you don't base your beliefs on the bible so don't use it as an authority. However, if you wish to use the title in a reclaimed context you must then prove to me that it is truly god speaking through you.

Don't try to put words in my mouth. This question is a logical fallacy, I never said anyone was using anything wrong.

I don't mean to put you on the defensive, Ptah.

You've indicated that you understand the Charismatic Gifts of the Spirit, and that pagans also display them. I was just hoping to get you to elaborate on what you've seen.

Oh, and btw, I never said I don't hold the Bible as an authority. Just that the men who wrote it were just as fallible as we are.

Ptah

March 9th, 2006, 02:07 PM

I don't mean to put you on the defensive, Ptah.

Thank you.

You've indicated that you understand the Charismatic Gifts of the Spirit, and that pagans also display them. I was just hoping to get you to elaborate on what you've seen.

Why didn't you ask, then?

Many of the manifestations of the gifts of spirit are evident within the pagan community, including prophesy(psychics), healing,(Reiki-do), discernment of spirits(empathy), miracles(magick), wisdom(sage/crone), words of knowledge(enlightenment)et al.

Oh, and btw, I never said I don't hold the Bible as an authority. Just that the men who wrote it were just as fallible as we are.

Is it of divine origin or not?

Ma'at's_Feather

March 9th, 2006, 07:55 PM

tobias,

ive been following this thread for a while. ive listened to the pod casts too. as far as jerry goes, its clear that he is only spreading a message of hate. i think thats been pretty well established so i wont dwell on it.

as far as you go, you have done nothing to prove your validity either. if you are indeed a prophet as you claim, then shouldnt your god tell you how to respond in a way that would help us see you as a prophet. Ptah does have one heck of a point though. prophets are only seen as such after their deaths. also on that note prophesy is only seen as such after it happens. hind sight is 20/20 after all. and another thing about true prophets is that they never claim to be prophets.
and another thing, as far as the gifts of the spirit that were mentioned in the pagan community goes. again the ones that know their stuff usually dont go around advertising it. i say usually because in the case of a select few out of necessity need to offer their particular gift as a way to support themselves.

following this thread has lead me to reason that you are into the idea of being a prophet but and no doubt believe you are one. but with the way you have answered things on this thread you are as much of a prophet as jerry is. that is to say, you are not one.

Ma'at's_Feather

Ptah

March 10th, 2006, 12:57 AM

that is to say, you are not one.

I agree that he hasn't prove the validity of that claim but if he is a prophet, there truly would be no way to establish it until later.

But that does bring up a question for Tobias. Other than the organization you are involved with saying it is so, how are you a prophet? I'm not trying to be disrespectful, but on the flip side of the question you asked me, what exactly is it that you do to allow you to claim that you are a prophet?

BlackMagicalCat

March 10th, 2006, 01:31 AM

Hey Azzeenasman, how have you been?

It seems that god does want to use me as a prophet. He's been doing it more lately, which I think is cool. I'm also becoming more aware of how he uses me in anointed teaching; which is like prophecy but with a lesser level of inspiration. I have been doing the anointed teaching thing for years now, and have received positive responses and karma touches from people who feel they have been helped by it.

I've been wondering how to tell people that the things they sometimes hear from me is from god, and have been considering the label of "prophet" for a while. But, once again, it seems that god is tying me back in to established Christian teachings, and I may as well just explain it the way they do. I have the active Five-Fold ministry gift of Teacher, and I'm a prophet because I prophesy. (Prophecy in this sense is not telling the future, but speaking messages for God.)

I really haven't done much to help others over the past few years, I've been more focused on my own path. It's been rather difficult for me as I shake off many of the harmful Christian doctrines, and wondering where this all leads. But I'm feeling more sure footed, and would like to assist others as the opportunities present themselves.

God assures me that this doesn't have to take away from my own progress, but that it will help me spiritually as I watch Him help others through me.
Sometimes I feel used of God also to help others,usually to serve them,and lift them up.I get responses and PMs from time to time telling me someone was touched,or uplifted in some way.Weather or not it is God,I dont know.But Im sure some of it was.

God spoke to my heart a while ago I believe,and said,if I want to be great,I must become a servant.So I consider myself the servant of others.
The mystery of God is ,that he uses people who are imperfect ,to speak and to bless others,despite all our shortcomings.And sometimes to rebuke.I dont believe God is all fuzzy all the time.He can become angry,and he can be provoked.

And provoking him is not wise.(in my humble opinion)
But Im not God,he will take up for himself.

My problem with Jerry was his lofty claims that demons were afraid of him and were calling him Gods cop.To me this is a lofty claim,and he veiled it in saying to us all,how humble he really was.It sounded like an infomercial,but I never saw him pray for any here,and he never came here,for whatever reason.The great works that Christ did spoke so loudly,that the message is still after all these years,going forth into the sea of humanity.

I have no stomach for someone who must proclaim to all how humble they really are.Someone who thinks the spirit realm shudders at the sight of them.
Someone who boasts about all the mighty works that are being done in there ministry,and then spends most of thier time trying to convince others that mighty works are being done.

Just do it,the works will speak for themselves,thats what I say.

as for me,I am a servant,nothing more,nothing less.I love to serve,and love to bless.

Take care Tobias

Tobias

March 10th, 2006, 12:57 PM

I don't believe I've made any attempts so far in this discussion to prove to anyone that I am a prophet. I wouldn't even know where to begin. I think maybe Jerry was trying to prove his claims by talking about being "God's Cop", etc. Apparently that hasn't gone over so well.

I didn't think that proof was necessary here. On this site the magickal and mystical are accepted without proof. We know that some claim the titles out of pride or to boost their self esteem; others don't feel the need to mention it much but fit the title quite well. At any rate, nobody seems to have a standard of validation before a person is allowed to call themself a "witch".

Could you imagine the mess if you did? If you'd require from each member of this site the same as you are asking of me? "So you say you are a Druid, eh? Prove it! How is it you commune with trees? Butcher an animal and divine from it's entrails... and, you'd better get the prediction right!"

No, this is a site where people come together to explain their paths, and learn from those who have found different religious expressions from their own. I have learned tremendously over the past almost 2 years of being here. I've been around Neo-Pagans since a little while before that. I really like the openness and acceptance; the tolerance of other's beliefs and practices.

Unfortunately, this tolerance does not usually extend to Christianity. Perhaps the policy of "Intolerance to the Intolerant" seems fair enough; but what about the few xians that don't express intolerance, yet find that the Divine works within their lives through the Christian expression? While I certainly can understand why many pagans feel the way they do towards my religion, I feel no need to offer myself up as a punching bag for them to take their aggressions out upon.

In this thread I have tried to explain what being a prophet is. I have tried to overcome the prejudice against Christianity, and show some of you that there are more than a few xians who have found a valid spirituality, and know both mysticism and magick. And, in the spirit of this site, I have tried to share some of what I know of this without harping on the usual "salvation" issues that most xians feel are of utmost importance.

I claimed to be a prophet only to validate my knowledge of what it means to be one. I'm not talking about someone else in some other religion. I'm talking about myself, and what being a prophet means to me. And, my opinions about prophets mostly coincide with those held by several hundred million other xians; which likely includes Jerry, the subject of this thread.

Ptah

March 10th, 2006, 01:13 PM

I didn't think that proof was necessary here. On this site the magickal and mystical are accepted without proof.

Isn't that essentially what you asked me? You queried me pretty good about why I claimed a certain title, I simply asked you the same question.

lamoka

March 10th, 2006, 01:20 PM

Merry Meet to All..
Please forgive my ignorance of many things as I ask the following questions:
Wasn't that one of the points of the crucifixtion of Jesus because they asked for "proof" of his God, of his role as "prophet", "healer", etc.?
Isn't faith in Gods (and I refer to Goddess as well when I use His name) place in our lives a proofless place.. his workings should and do speak for themselves? (Are we listening?)
Maybe it is the word "prophet" that is in question..do we all define it the same.. I know I don't.. I think of Nostradamus (sp) and his prophesies.. all very dark and forbidding, all filled with negativity and such..
I can tell you that it is my belief that my God speaks to me in many ways although I don't actually hear His voice.. I have heard him in the words on these forums and through all of you who participate.. would you all then be considered prophets or just "vessels" (for lack of a better word) for His messages to me..
I have heard Him in songs, through the wind, my childs laughter and cries, I have even heard him in the running of water.. also in the sound of His silence.. are all these to be considered types of prophets or again does God use whatever is needed whenever it is needed to get through the thickest of skulls.. ? :hahugh:
IMO, we should leave proof out of the equation as it is just another way of passing judgement.. and I for one, do not walk my path that way..
blessed be

BlackMagicalCat

March 10th, 2006, 01:20 PM

Tobias

March 10th, 2006, 02:34 PM

Isn't that essentially what you asked me? You queried me pretty good about why I claimed a certain title, I simply asked you the same question.

Well, I came back to my comp. to consider possibly editing out the word "prejudice" from my last post... but it looks like everybody's on today lol. I don't want to sound like I'm whining or feel like I'm being picked on; people on this particular thread have been very considerate as a whole.

I do feel though that there has been a double standard at times. This is what I've been alluding to by questioning your title, Ptah. I don't really know what priestly duties are in your religion so I haven't wanted to speculate. But if you can claim to be one, why can't you accept the Charismatic Christian's use of the title of "Prophet"? That's all. It's none of my business though really. I was just fishing to see if you had any other reason for feeling the way you do because I find your other argument quite valid. The "There can't be any Prophets because the gods don't use people as messengers in the capacity" argument; one that needs consideration on a very deep spiritual level.

Tobias

March 10th, 2006, 02:58 PM

Merry Meet to All..
I can tell you that it is my belief that my God speaks to me in many ways although I don't actually hear His voice.. I have heard him in the words on these forums and through all of you who participate.. would you all then be considered prophets or just "vessels" (for lack of a better word) for His messages to me..

Hi Lamoka, :wave:

This compares with the "anointing" I've been talking about. Deity gets the message across one way or the other. Though we can't hope to ever control the Divine, I do think we can accumulate an understanding of how things work over time, to where we learn how to encourage God to minister to others through us.

Prophets are just another step in this. I didn't think that speaking on behalf of Deity was unique to the Christian tradition. Didn't the Oracle at Delphi do just that? But perhaps none of the neo-Pagan traditions have attempted to recreate that experience. Or perhaps the few people involved in this thread have never seen it done successfully.

I think it's worth noting that Christianity has attempted to recreate this ministry position, and has been doing so with a certain amount of success (imo) over the past 25 years or so. That's all. I'm not looking for anyone to believe me. Just comparing notes between people with differing spiritual experiences.

I've gotten tremendous amounts of value from this discussion on my end. I hope it's been satisfying to others as well.

Tobias

March 10th, 2006, 04:38 PM

The mystery of God is ,that he uses people who are imperfect ,to speak and to bless others,despite all our shortcomings.And sometimes to rebuke.I dont believe God is all fuzzy all the time.He can become angry,and he can be provoked.

Often times people can have misconceptions about what a *real* prophet must be like, just like non-pagans have a hard time understanding what a *real* witch does.

God is not all fluffy all the time. Don't anyone expect prophets to be. He uses imperfect people, so prophets are going to have faults too. He has His own criteria for choosing His servants, and we have a choice as to how much we are willing to serve.

It bugs me when people have the unreasonable expectation of Prophets that they should be able to be recognized without ever mentioning what they do. Why is that the only job description a person can have where they aren't allowed to ever speak it out loud? Many people say that "Anyone who says they are a Prophet, isn't one." But how is anyone ever going to know?

Say I were to get into a car accident and my wife was there bleeding on the ground. Then a car pulls up and a caring person rushes over to lend assistance. Would it be wrong if he/she were to say "I am a doctor"? No, not at all. I would take comfort in knowing that.

What would suck is if the same standard that applied to Prophets also applied to members of the medical profession. The person would rush over to help; but be unable to tell me what kind of training they possess. It would then be up to me to guess by what they were doing, even though I don't have the medical training to know an orderly from a nurse, or a surgeon from a gynecologist.

Being a prophet is a very specialized type of spiritual minister, one that it really helps if other people know. Some people seek out astrologers and tarot card readers. But Prophets are not "allowed" to tell you what they can do... so how can you ever know? Most people do not possess the skills to tell the difference between when someone is speaking for God or just blabbing. What's the harm in declaring to them what you are?

Just because someone tells me they are an auto mechanic doesn't give me the right to question their claim to the title. It doesn't give me the right to rail on them because another mechanic down the street ripped me off. It would be rather impolite of me to sit him down and ask him 20 questions concerning his use of the title of "mechanic".

When someone tells me their job title, I still get to reserve the right to make my own judgment as to how good of one they are. Many people do try and fake it because they really aren't that good at what they do. But, by using job titles, we identify each other, and also open doors for possible service.

So, I am a prophet. Anyone looking for a word from god should take notice, and consider trying me out. Anyone who doesn't believe in prophecy, don't worry about it.

Anyone who thinks prophets are evil and would never want to associate with one... well, at least now you know. There's no sense keeping it a secret, is there?

This post isn't aimed at you Azzeenasman; or at anyone in particular. Just some random thoughts on a snowy Friday afternoon.

Ptah

March 11th, 2006, 10:30 AM

Just because someone tells me they are an auto mechanic doesn't give me the right to question their claim to the title. It doesn't give me the right to rail on them because another mechanic down the street ripped me off. It would be rather impolite of me to sit him down and ask him 20 questions concerning his use of the title of "mechanic".

At the same time, you had better make damn sure he has the right to claim he is a mechanic before you turn your vehicle over to him. I wouldn't have a problem asking him at all. At least then I would know whether he is going to dazzle me with brilliance or try to baffle me with bullsh*t.

Ptah

March 11th, 2006, 10:59 AM

But if you can claim to be one, why can't you accept the Charismatic Christian's use of the title of "Prophet"?

Mainly, I don't like the message of charismatic christianity. Been there, done that...

You know, this reminds me of a conversation I had with Stewart Farrar a few years back. He said that the word wicce/wicca was originally a term of respect paid to an elder. You could call someone wicca but if that person truly was wicca he would deny it. To call oneself Wicca was considered pretentious. Nowadays, all it takes to be wicca is to spend 10 min in the Barnes and Noble occult aisle. You probably didn't know this but just a glance at a Llewellyn logo on the spine of any book is enough to cause a new high priest to self initiate.

With everybody claiming the title, its lost its meaning completely.

Tobias

March 11th, 2006, 01:00 PM

At the same time, you had better make damn sure he has the right to claim he is a mechanic before you turn your vehicle over to him. I wouldn't have a problem asking him at all. At least then I would know whether he is going to dazzle me with brilliance or try to baffle me with bullsh*t.

Exactly Ptah. You can't just turn your car over to any idiot who claims to be a mechanic. There seems to be a lot of "self initiated" ones out there!! Lol

There is a certain amount of folly to being a self-proclaimed Prophet (with a capitol "P"). I realized this very quickly when I jumped into this thread, and dropped the title. Now I'm only referring to being a prophet to describe what I can do (one focus of the spiritual path I'm on), because it's relevant to my position in this discussion. Just like mechanics have the understanding to judge the skills of other mechanics, so do spiritual people understand other spiritual people. That's all I'm hoping for here.

It would be really nice if society did understand Prophets and the prophetic; and did go around recognizing those in this ministry without the help of titles, name tags, suffixes tagged onto the end of your name, or distinguishing clothing. Doctors get to wear stethoscopes. Priests were funny collars.

I know of a Prophet who's been doing his job for probably 30 years now. He's been ordained and recognized as a Prophet by churches across several continents, and I'm sure he has the certificates to prove it. Still, I heard him called on the news a "Self Proclaimed Prophet". I supposed someone asked him, "Are you a Prophet?" and he mistakenly said "yes". Should he have avoided answering any direct questions concerning his job? On tax forms, where it asks you what your career is, are Prophets the only people in the country that can't write anything down? There isn't a whole lot of room there to beat around the bush hoping they can guess it. lol

Ok, I'm done with that rant. :rant:

:lol:

Tobias

March 11th, 2006, 01:39 PM

There is something more to being a Prophet though than just prophesying.

Lifestyle.

God speaks to people just as much through the prophet's life as he does through their mouths. You see many of the Prophets in the Bible being asked to do crazy things; like marrying a prostitute or lying naked on his side for months just to demonstrate a point.

Integrity is also a major issue. God can and does speak through just about anybody (including a donkey once), but to be a Prophet one must live a certain lifestyle.

Several months back God started teaching me about false prophets, and what it takes to be one. I don't know why so many of the lessons he teaches me have to do with the negative... but hey, it does work for me. False Prophets can be pretty close to the real thing. In fact, there's only a few shades of gray in between where it's questionable whether it's a real prophet making mistakes, or a false one. Often I suppose a false prophet is just a Prophet in error.

One thing that makes a prophet false is intent. In the biblical story of Balaam we see a prophet with the reputation that both his blessings and curses worked. But when his personal desires conflicted with God's, he chose his own. In the end we see him using his knowledge of God's ways to oppose God's intentions. God wouldn't let him curse the Israelites, so he instructed his people to send out prostitutes to get the Israelites to sin, and anger God. It worked like Balaam planned; but God didn't let him relish in his victory for long.

I can see in my personal life evidence of me using my knowledge of God for personal gain. I would be completely foolish to use my knowledge to oppose His will, though. Still, I don't see how I deserve any "brownie points" if everything I do benefits me in one way or the other.

Perhaps this is just some misconception where we believe in some perfect form of altruism. Or maybe I'm just falling short of the standard of where I should be. But I truly believe that my god has had me on the training path to become a Prophet for quite some time now. Not that the title necessarily has to be "Prophet". But it's in a ministry capacity with direct connection to him... something that is not emphasized too much in modern day xianity.

"Prophet" does describe my lifestyle, as compared to the biblical ones. "False Prophet" describes what the Church thinks about me based upon the theology that my god has taught me about himself. As long as my god doesn't consider me as "false", then I suppose it's ok. I endeavor to do the best job that I can for him.

BlackMagicalCat

March 11th, 2006, 01:49 PM

Well,I just wanted to see him come here and pray for others(Jerry),but he didnt have the time I guess.I look at the fruit on a tree,to see what kind it is,because a tree is known by the fruit it bears.

Besides,I sent a hex to a christian on a christian forums,he told me God hated me,and he was rude and mean,and kept sending me PMs,so ,well,I unfolded my little magickal wings and tried to fly.I hope it works too,not for me,but for all the others he walked all over,and in Gods name too,while proclaiming to all of his great love for God.

He was so mean,so I have little tolerance for those who boast about being so close to God,yet cannot show somone the Love of God.

Maybe I was a bit harsh,I dont know.

Ma'at's_Feather

March 11th, 2006, 08:18 PM

I didn't think that proof was necessary here. On this site the magickal and mystical are accepted without proof. We know that some claim the titles out of pride or to boost their self esteem; others don't feel the need to mention it much but fit the title quite well. At any rate, nobody seems to have a standard of validation before a person is allowed to call themself a "witch".

perhaps proove was the wrong word choice. i just question your validity on the basis that you claim to be a prophet. why the need/want to tell people about it? why cant you be satisfied in your private knowledge of it? why cant you just give your advice and be done with it? do you think more people will listen to what you have to say by waving your hands around and claiming to be a prophet of god?

Ma'at's_Feather

Ptah

March 12th, 2006, 12:08 AM

perhaps proove was the wrong word choice. i just question your validity on the basis that you claim to be a prophet. why the need/want to tell people about it? why cant you be satisfied in your private knowledge of it? why cant you just give your advice and be done with it? do you think more people will listen to what you have to say by waving your hands around and claiming to be a prophet of god?

Ma'at's_Feather

Ma'at, I don't feel Tobias is doing anything like that. I think what we are doing here is examining paradigms. Proof is arbitrary at best and no one here has actually asked for that. I think, at this point, its more like blurred semantics. In my paradigm a dog catcher drives around looking for stray dogs but the reality of what a dog catcher does is most likely very different.

In one respect our language does adapt to differing scenarios depending on the dictates of society. On the other hand, there is something about understanding what the ancients were talking about when they originally defined the term.

Tobias

March 12th, 2006, 04:58 PM

I agree, Ptah. :)

why the need/want to tell people about it? why cant you be satisfied in your private knowledge of it? why cant you just give your advice and be done with it?

I have been very quiet about what I do for many years. Why do you feel it's wrong to talk about it?

Talking has opened the doors for me to accept other people's wisdom that otherwise would probably never had anything to say to me. If we all went home and practiced our spirituality in the closet, what would that benefit anyone?

There are advantages to coming out of the closet with your spirituality, even if the people you tell can't comprehend it. When you tell your relatives you're a pagan, they do quit expecting you to go to church and act like a Christian. They also get really curious about paganism, which opens up many opportunities for you to explain what you believe, and how that's helped you.

It doesn't necessarily have to be pride that leads you to come out. It could be simple frustration with being misunderstood! Unfortunately, misunderstandings usually multiply at that point. Similar to some of what's transpired in this thread.

Perhaps I have displayed some lack of control over my ego along the way. But that is because I don't see ego as a bad thing. It can get in the way if we let it, so it has to be controlled. But eliminating the ego completely is not a goal of my path. Just like some people believe that sexual expression of any sort cannot coincide with spirituality, so people are mistaken when they expect anyone "holy enough to be a Prophet" to be completely devoid of ego (and every other vice for that matter.)

Personally I believe in giving credit where credit is due. If God actually did something, then he deserves the credit for it. If he didn't do it, don't try to suck up by telling him you believe he did. If an angel delivers a message to you, wouldn't it be proper to thank him/her? But don't pretend to think the message originated with the messenger.

In the same way Prophets are not automatic machines like tape recorders. It takes work to prepare yourself, and skill to deliver message right. They are far from being God incarnate (so don't worship them as such); but a little bit of acknowledgment for what they have to endure isn't misplaced.

The same applies to anyone who labors in any spiritual capacity.

Tobias

March 12th, 2006, 05:32 PM

I sent a hex to a christian on a christian forums,he told me God hated me,and he was rude and mean,and kept sending me PMs,so ,well,I unfolded my little magickal wings and tried to fly.I hope it works too,not for me,but for all the others he walked all over,and in Gods name too,while proclaiming to all of his great love for God.

He was so mean,so I have little tolerance for those who boast about being so close to God,yet cannot show somone the Love of God.

Maybe I was a bit harsh,I dont know.

There is such a thing in the Bible as a justifiable curse. It is spoken over people who have done things to deserve it. If you are accurate in your assessment of the situation and the person really does deserve it, then God acts on it.

I don't see God's curses are really curses though. They are just a negative way to get the message of hope across. There is Life in following God's principles, but the world will suck it out of you when you don't. When God brings a curse on somebody it is a series of negative things applied with the focus of causing repentance and a turn about in their behaviour.

This ties into another function of Prophets. According to biblical tradition, certain things need to be spoken aloud in the hearing of others for God to take action. Elijah spoke that it wouldn't rain in Israel, and it didn't for 3 years. It took someone in the recognized office of Prophet to do this. The drought in effect was a blessing, because it brought people back to following their god. However, without the Prophet first speaking the drought, then releasing the rain; no-one would have know it was anything except natural weather phenomenon.

Biblical curses must be proclaimed in public, preferably in the hearing of the accused (from what little I know on the subject). If you spoke this curse in private, I doubt it will have any more effect than if you did nothing and waited for God to handle the problem on his own.

djmixon

March 12th, 2006, 05:40 PM

I don't see God's curses are really curses though. They are just a negative way to get the message of hope across. There is Life in following God's principles, but the world will suck it out of you when you don't. When God brings a curse on somebody it is a series of negative things applied with the focus of causing repentance and a turn about in their behaviour.

This ties into another function of Prophets. According to biblical tradition, certain things need to be spoken aloud in the hearing of others for God to take action. Elijah spoke that it wouldn't rain in Israel, and it didn't for 3 years. It took someone in the recognized office of Prophet to do this. The drought in effect was a blessing, because it brought people back to following their god. However, without the Prophet first speaking the drought, then releasing the rain; no-one would have know it was anything except natural weather phenomenon.

Biblical curses must be proclaimed in public, preferably in the hearing of the accused (from what little I know on the subject). If you spoke this curse in private, I doubt it will have any more effect than if you did nothing and waited for God to handle the problem on his own.

I don't believe Elijah caused anything to happen, but rather God used Elijah to speak His message and to tell the people His will.

As far as God getting people to see things His way... well, we have free will, so we can always choose. However, what we choose may not be in God's plan for us, so things don't work out the way we want because it is not what He wants. Good plans vs. God's plans.

It reminds me of David's plans (2 Samuel) to build a temple to God. God told David that it was a good plan, but he would not be the one to build the temple, rather Solomon would. And that is how it happened.

Giving ourselves over to the will of God is part of walking the path of Christianity. Sometimes, though, He needs a Mack Truck to get our attention.

Hawk Shadowsoul

March 13th, 2006, 01:33 PM

There is such a thing in the Bible as a justifiable curse. It is spoken over people who have done things to deserve it. If you are accurate in your assessment of the situation and the person really does deserve it, then God acts on it.

I don't see God's curses are really curses though. They are just a negative way to get the message of hope across. There is Life in following God's principles, but the world will suck it out of you when you don't. When God brings a curse on somebody it is a series of negative things applied with the focus of causing repentance and a turn about in their behaviour.

This ties into another function of Prophets. According to biblical tradition, certain things need to be spoken aloud in the hearing of others for God to take action. Elijah spoke that it wouldn't rain in Israel, and it didn't for 3 years. It took someone in the recognized office of Prophet to do this. The drought in effect was a blessing, because it brought people back to following their god. However, without the Prophet first speaking the drought, then releasing the rain; no-one would have know it was anything except natural weather phenomenon.

Biblical curses must be proclaimed in public, preferably in the hearing of the accused (from what little I know on the subject). If you spoke this curse in private, I doubt it will have any more effect than if you did nothing and waited for God to handle the problem on his own.
Tobias, for the first time i strongly disagree with some of your comments. A curse is a curse, and whether the recipient hears it or not it is still a curse. And it is a curse no matter what god it comes from. I think Job would agree with me here. I cannot excuse your god from a curse. Some are justified, yes, but just because your god is the christian god does not change the situation. We all have probably used our abilities to "curse", or slap someone down if they tried to cause us harm or discomfort, but it is what it is.
"A rose is a rose and smells the same by any name."

Tobias

March 13th, 2006, 08:33 PM

Tobias, for the first time i strongly disagree with some of your comments.

Well ok, I did try to qualify my response with: "what little I know" about "Biblical curses". I used the term "biblical" in the traditional sense; ie that these curses are found in the Bible, supported by it, and should be recognized as such by your average Bible-believer as not in contradiction to the basic tenets of Christianity.

Obviously this does not encompass the entire realm of magickal workings. :lol: If Azzeenasman was attempting a different kind of curse, then other principles would apply. But it sounded to me like his motives were pretty much in line with the Biblical version, and with him being a Christian, I thought I'd fill him in on what I know.

Curses have to be brought about by someone or something. If I wished to curse someone, I would have to enlist the assistance of someone else to carry out the destruction on the subject, or I would have to do the work myself. Right?

The Biblical curse does not permit for the person saying the curse to involve him/herself personally. It is a declaration before God and Man that a wrong has been committed, with the intent that God would take it upon himself to equalize the situation. I see this as a very "safe" way to curse someone, as it is more of a request (like a prayer) than anything else. It is also ideally combined with faith -- the knowledge of the principles of God and justice, and the assurance in your heart that this "request" is within the will of God. He will not bring it to pass if there is more to the situation than what we know, or if we are unjustified in asking for it.

Remember too, that when a Christian call upon His/her God, they are not thinking polytheisticly. They are not imagining what non-xians consider Jehovah to be: the sometimes petty and jealous god of the Hebrews. They are calling upon All that is Good, a Just God that will not harm anyone needlessly. Surely what you expect in your heart effects your magickal workings, doesn't it?

Hawk Shadowsoul

March 13th, 2006, 09:06 PM

Well ok, I did try to qualify my response with: "what little I know" about "Biblical curses". I used the term "biblical" in the traditional sense; ie that these curses are found in the Bible, supported by it, and should be recognized as such by your average Bible-believer as not in contradiction to the basic tenets of Christianity.

Obviously this does not encompass the entire realm of magickal workings. :lol: If Azzeenasman was attempting a different kind of curse, then other principles would apply. But it sounded to me like his motives were pretty much in line with the Biblical version, and with him being a Christian, I thought I'd fill him in on what I know.

Curses have to be brought about by someone or something. If I wished to curse someone, I would have to enlist the assistance of someone else to carry out the destruction on the subject, or I would have to do the work myself. Right?

The Biblical curse does not permit for the person saying the curse to involve him/herself personally. It is a declaration before God and Man that a wrong has been committed, with the intent that God would take it upon himself to equalize the situation. I see this as a very "safe" way to curse someone, as it is more of a request (like a prayer) than anything else. It is also ideally combined with faith -- the knowledge of the principles of God and justice, and the assurance in your heart that this "request" is within the will of God. He will not bring it to pass if there is more to the situation than what we know, or if we are unjustified in asking for it.

Remember too, that when a Christian call upon His/her God, they are not thinking polytheisticly. They are not imagining what non-xians consider Jehovah to be: the sometimes petty and jealous god of the Hebrews. They are calling upon All that is Good, a Just God that will not harm anyone needlessly. Surely what you expect in your heart effects your magickal workings, doesn't it?
Cain, Job, and Judas were cursed. By god. The entire cities of Gahmorra and Sodom were cursed. By god.
When I am doing magical workings, I keep in mind there is no such thing as an idle word. And again, my personal opinion on gods(esses), is they are not Good and Just, they are simply gods. When I work with magic, it is me touching the source of the power of creation, not with permission of a god. I may or may not invoke a god, as it suits my needs. The results of my actions are my responsibility. I will not lay that on the feet of my gods. History is full of dead people who many of were harmed needlessly by the gods. Just a single "for instance", instead of drowning the Egyptians in the sea, an omnipotent god could have simply made the Egyptians forget the Isrealites ever existed. Needless death.

Tobias

March 14th, 2006, 12:35 PM

My knowledge of God comes from personal experience with him. I then take this experience and remember many bible stories where the symbology behind the story accurately portrays a spiritual truth concerning how He works. By doing this, I find some stories from the Bible to hold more weight than others. I also agree with the Evangelical view that the OT stories of how God dealt with groups of people applies to our individual lives today. They accept these stories for their metaphorical value. Those that have spiritual lessons, I keep. Those that don't, I ignore -- for now.

The only way that I've personally seen God curse people, is the way I've described. It is a blessing in disguise! Ok, you may not feel that way about it while going through it. And you may never come around to agreeing with the changes God is attempting to make in your life. Yet from experience I say that He is a good Father, one who knows what we need spiritually and knows how to teach it.

Ptah

March 14th, 2006, 03:52 PM

The only way that I've personally seen God curse people, is the way I've described. It is a blessing in disguise!

2 Samuel 24

15 So the LORD sent a pestilence upon Israel from the morning until the appointed time, and seventy thousand men of the people from Dan to Beersheba died. 16 When the angel stretched out his hand toward Jerusalem to destroy it, the LORD relented from the calamity and said to the angel who destroyed the people, “It is enough! Now relax your hand!” And the angel of the LORD was by the threshing floor of Araunah the Jebusite. 17 Then David spoke to the LORD when he saw the angel who was striking down the people, and said, “Behold, it is I who have sinned, and it is I who have done wrong; but these sheep, what have they done? Please let Your hand be against me and against my father's house.”

What good could possibly come from the needless destruction of 70,000 men, women and children just to punish one person's transgression?

...or the killing of the first born of Egypt? It was horrible when the Romans did it but a miracle when the Jews were on the giving end.

How about this abbreviated list of biblical generational curses that could already be on your family and mine?

Those who curse/mistreat Jews (unless you're God) (Gen. 27:29; 12:3; Num. 24:9).
Those willing deceivers (Jos.9:23; Jer. 48:10; Mal. 1:14; Gen. 27:12).
An adulterous woman (Numbers 5:27).
Disobedience (Deut. 11:28; Dan. 9:11; Jer. 11:3).
Idolatry (Jer. 44:8; Deut. 29:19; Ex. 20:5; Deut. 5:8-9).
Those who keep or own cursed objects (Deut. 7:25; Jos. 6:18).
Those who refuse to come to the Lord's help (Judges 5:23).
House of the wicked (Prov. 3:33).
He who gives nothing to the poor (Prov. 28:27).
The earth by reason of man's disobedience (Isa. 24:3-6).
Jerusalem is a curse to all nations if Jews rebel against God? (Jer. 26:6)
Thieves and those who swear falsely by the Lord's Name (Zech. 5:4).
Ministers who fail to give the glory to God (Mal. 2:2; Rev. 1:6).
Those who rob God of tithes and offerings (Mal. 3:9; Haggai 1:6-9).
Those who hearken unto their wives rather than God (Gen. 3:17).
Those who lightly esteem their parents (Deut. 27:16).
Those who make graven images (Deut. 5:8; 27:15; Ex. 20:4).
Those who willfully cheat people out of their property (Deut. 27:17). (my city Government is cursed)
Those who take advantage of the blind ( Deut.27:18).
Those oppressing strangers, widows, fatherless (Deut. 27:19; Ex. 22:22-24).
Him who lies with his father's wife (Deut. 27:21; Ex. 22:19).
Him who lies with his sister (Deut. 27:22).
Those who smite their neighbors secretly (Deut. 27:24).
Those who take money to slay the innocent (Deut. 27:24).
Him who lies with any beast (Deut. 27:21; Ex. 22:19).
Adulterers (Job 24:15-18; Deut. 22:22-27).
The proud (Psalm 119:21).
Those who do the work of the Lord deceitfully (Jer. 48:10). (M.Mauren and Jerry?)
Him who keeps back his sword from blood (WWJD) (Jer. 48:10; I Kings 20:35-42).
Those who reward evil for good (Prov. 17:13).
Illegitimate children (more suffering for the innocent?)(Deut. 23:2).
Children born from incestuous unions (even more?) (Gen. 19:36-38).
Murderers (Exodus 21:12).
To murder indirectly (Exodus 21:14).
Children who strike their parents (Exodus 21:15).
Kidnappers (Exodus 21:16; Deut. 24:7).
Those who curse their parents (Exodus 21:17).
Those who cause the unborn to die (Exodus 21:22-23).
Those who do not prevent death (Exodus 21:29).
Those involved in witchcraft (Exodus 22:18).
Those who sacrifice to false gods (Exodus 22:20).
Those who attempt to turn anyone away from the Lord (Deut. 13:6-9).
Those who follow horoscopes(Deut. 17:2-5).
False prophets (Deut. 18:19--22). (jerry?)
Women who keep not their virginity until they are married (Deut. 22:13-21).
Parents who do not discipline their children, but honor them above God (I Sam 2:17,27-36).
Those who curse their rulers (I Kings 2:8-9; Ex. 22:28). (Ya hear that you Bush bashing Democrats?)
Those who teach rebellion against the Lord (Jer. 28:16-17).
Those who refuse to warn them that sin (Ezek. 3:18-21).
Those who defile the Sabbath (Ex. 31:14; Num. 15:32-36)
Those who sacrifice human beings (Lev. 20:2).
Participants in seances and fortune telling (Lev. 20:6).
Homosexual and lesbian relationships (Lev. 20:13).
Sexual intercourse during menstruation (Lev. 20:18).
Necromancers and fortune tellers (Lev. 20:27).
Those who blaspheme the Lord's name (Lev. 24:15-16).
Those who are carnally minded (Romans 8:6).
Sodomy (oral and anal sex) (Gen. 19:13, 24-25).
Rebellious children (Deut. 21:18-21).
Non-productivity, a fugitive, vagabond (Gen. 4:11).
Improper family structure - (Mal. 4:6)
The curse causeless shall not come (Prov. 26:2).
Any sin worthy of death is also cursed by the Lord (Deut. 21:22-23).

Those who rebel against pastors (Deut. 17:12) (WTF?)

The last one was taken from a list on a charismatic website.
This is the actual scripture...

Deut. 17:12
“And because you listen to these rules and keep and do them, the Lord your God will keep with you the covenant and the steadfast love that he swore to your fathers.

It says absolutley nothing about pastors perhaps the person who wrote that should read Jeremiah 48:10

Ma'at's_Feather

March 14th, 2006, 04:01 PM

I agree, Ptah. :)

I have been very quiet about what I do for many years. Why do you feel it's wrong to talk about it?

Talking has opened the doors for me to accept other people's wisdom that otherwise would probably never had anything to say to me. If we all went home and practiced our spirituality in the closet, what would that benefit anyone?

There are advantages to coming out of the closet with your spirituality, even if the people you tell can't comprehend it. When you tell your relatives you're a pagan, they do quit expecting you to go to church and act like a Christian. They also get really curious about paganism, which opens up many opportunities for you to explain what you believe, and how that's helped you.

It doesn't necessarily have to be pride that leads you to come out. It could be simple frustration with being misunderstood! Unfortunately, misunderstandings usually multiply at that point. Similar to some of what's transpired in this thread.

Perhaps I have displayed some lack of control over my ego along the way. But that is because I don't see ego as a bad thing. It can get in the way if we let it, so it has to be controlled. But eliminating the ego completely is not a goal of my path. Just like some people believe that sexual expression of any sort cannot coincide with spirituality, so people are mistaken when they expect anyone "holy enough to be a Prophet" to be completely devoid of ego (and every other vice for that matter.)

Personally I believe in giving credit where credit is due. If God actually did something, then he deserves the credit for it. If he didn't do it, don't try to suck up by telling him you believe he did. If an angel delivers a message to you, wouldn't it be proper to thank him/her? But don't pretend to think the message originated with the messenger.

In the same way Prophets are not automatic machines like tape recorders. It takes work to prepare yourself, and skill to deliver message right. They are far from being God incarnate (so don't worship them as such); but a little bit of acknowledgment for what they have to endure isn't misplaced.

The same applies to anyone who labors in any spiritual capacity.

tobias,

you do have a valid point about giving crdit where it is due. i admit i probably put more into your writing than what was really there. im not saying i believe you are a prophet, but i do understand what you have been trying to portray.

your example about me coming out as a pagan really hit home for me. so i can see your point of view easier.

Ma'at's_Feather

Tobias

March 14th, 2006, 06:52 PM

How about this abbreviated list of biblical generational curses that could already be on your family and mine?

...

What?? No curses mentioned about those who follow the false gods of Egypt?? ;)

Either you believe this is an accurate depiction of who God is or you don't. I don't.

The reality of God is somewhat different than what Bible-believing Christians think about Him. Yet on some levels they do have it right. Sometimes they have to ignore parts of the Bible, and go by personal experience.

I've considered leaving Christianity as a religion, and just saying that I follow some other god. It would make it easier sometimes, because I could then describe him as I know him. Yet I can't deny that many other Christians besides myself have also stumbled into the same god that I have.

Over the years I have developed extreme amounts of resistance against Christians quoting scripture to me to prove what they believe is the nature of God. If they can't back it up with personal experience, then I don't really care how they interpret scripture; or what they believe. Even then, experience can be very subjective. But at least it's a starting point.

Ptah, do you feel you have personal experience with encountering God's wrath? With him cursing you? I feel so much of the time that I misunderstand where you're coming from. What is your point in posting a bunch of scripture references on a forum where nobody believes the Bible anyway?

Tobias

March 14th, 2006, 06:59 PM

your example about me coming out as a pagan really hit home for me. so i can see your point of view easier.

Well, I wasn't talking about you specifically. I don't really know firsthand how hard that is on any of you. But I'm glad you got my point.

And, I have my own reservations myself about whether I'm a prophet or not. At this point I'm not looking for any followers. :)

Ptah

March 14th, 2006, 10:22 PM

Ptah, do you feel you have personal experience with encountering God's wrath? With him cursing you? I feel so much of the time that I misunderstand where you're coming from. What is your point in posting a bunch of scripture references on a forum where nobody believes the Bible anyway?

Well, I've had Sekhmet slap me around a bit.

Actually, I don't believe the curses god supposedly visited on man or the prophesies in the bible are anything more than hindsight. For the most part the authors of the bible place the blame on God/Demons or Satan, after the fact. The failed political leadership, who also controlled or were controlled by the religious order of the Hebrews, could never seem to place the blame for their severe lack of leadership on their own shoulders. Most of the curses I listed, were curses the religious leadership were placing on their own following, in an attempt to keep them in line. So no I don't believe God is cursing me but it seems a few bible quoting Christians are and if you read the entire list you'll find you have probably been cursed also.

I thought this was a theological discussion. Tell me again how we can discuss your religion without discussing the foundation book of your faith. You couldn't do it, you quoted the bible. If we were discussing the Egyptian belief, I hold, I would be quoting the PertEmHru, the Precepts of KiGemini or PtahHotep and speaking of heiroglyphs. Anyway, you shouldn't get defensive if someone posts something out of your Holy Bible, in a discussion based solely on biblical principle.

But mainly you shouldn't say things like biblical curses are actually blessings. How many of the curses, that I listed, are blessings? Who was blessed by the census curse? It certainly wasn't the 70,000 people who died, it wasn't Israel, it wasn't David... where is the blessing?

Tobias

March 15th, 2006, 03:51 PM

Well, ok Ptah. Like I said, I can easily misunderstand you. "Curses" posted as warnings by ecclesiastical writers thousands of years ago to keep their people in line seems like quite a jump from the reality of one person being able to proclaim a curse on another today. But I did mention God cursing people too, didn't I? I'm slow sometimes, but I'm catching up. :)

I do sense that my God opposes people at times. Especially those who he has called into service but resist him. At least, that's the most sense I can make out of it. Maybe because these people are called, they are given certain gifts or insight into the workings of God's kingdom. By resisting their calling they are actually opposing God on certain levels due to the special knowledge they are privy to. This causes God to respond in a war-like manner. He does defend His interests.

It could all be psychological too. A person who knows they are resisting God's call, may sub-consciously feel they are in sin, and respond by making poor decisions in their lives. They know they are not submitting to what God wants them to do, so they instinctively oppose wisdom as well. Many of us can feel the flow of the Universe around us, and can line ourselves up with the currents that are most advantageous to us. A person who resists God may also find themself sensing the currents in the spiritual but misinterpreting the information and always fighting against it.

Maybe they resist the call because they fear what God may ask them to do. Or maybe His only calling is for us to come and learn at His feet, but the Christian religion causes us to expect something else.