Should I stay or should I go?

[Valnorran]

First, a disclaimer. This is mostly me venting my feelings about something while trying to make sense of it. It is not my intent to offend, and if I do offend anyone I am truly sorry. I don't mean to, but my sentiments about this are complicated and in trying to express them I'm likely to slip up. I welcome whatever suggestions anyone has.

I find myself at a crossroads right now. I've been a solitary ecclectic Wiccan for about ten years now, but I find myself growing rather uncomfortable with having the term "Wiccan" applied to me. It just feels like the fluffy bunnies/Disney Wiccans pretty much dominate the Wiccan scene. Maybe they don't, but it sure feels that way. Go into a bookstore and browse the Pagan/New Age section and what do you see? Anytime the subject of Wicca or witchcraft is on television it seems like the producers go out of their way to find the absolute silliest representatives of the religion. Even National Geographic has been guilty of this. Being inundated with such things, I have to ask myself, "Am I the only Wiccan who isn't like this?" Well, sites such as this and others clearly answer "No, you're not," but it still seems like those of us who are neither fluffies nor direct descendants of a tradition are very, very small in number. I confess that I'm almost embarrassed to be thought of as a Wiccan because it seems like to most people Wiccan = fluffy bunny. *sigh* I'm probably not doing a very good job of expressing myself on this. Perhaps if I listed the ways in which I seem to differ from other (dare I say, orthodox?) Wiccans.

I recognize (and sometimes embrace) the fact that death, destruction, and chaos are every bit as much a part of nature and the universe as life, creation, and order. Ergo, nature isn't always rainbows, pink sunsets, and smiling dolphins. It's also earthquakes, plagues, and wild dogs scarfing down a mother antelope and her calf while they're still alive.

I can think of a few, very few and very certain conditions under which I'd use magic to harm someone. I see it in the same terms I see physical force. Under very certain conditions, I'd use physical force to defend myself and loved ones. Under even fewer cirumstances, I'd use deadly force. I see no reason why magical use would be any different.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe in the healing power of crystals and I can't make myself believe in it.

I have no ethical problems with killing and eating another organism.

I feel no need whatsoever to attune myself to the seasons. For one thing, where I live there is very little dilineation between them. For another, they're going to come and go regardless of whether I observe them or not. I find each season has a different feeling, or perhaps flavor would be more accurate. At any rate, I notice this feeling or flavor without any use of ritual at all.

I tuly think I'm the only Wiccan in the entire history of the religion who is politically conservative. Most people regard this blending of belief systems as positively schitzophrenic. I've considered going Asatru, but I don't feel the affinity for the Norse gods that I do for the Celtic ones.

I'm about 98% in agreement with the sentiments expressed on the site "Wicca for the Rest of Us." There are only one or two things I disagree with there.

I'm seriously considering just being a solitary ecclectic Pagan. I worship Celtic dieties, but I don't consider myself a Druid or recon. I don't think Druids recognize solitaries, and I don't think we know enough about Celtic religious practices to have an accurate reconstruction of them. I'm a solitary by choice. I do not want to be in a coven. I find trying to commune with my gods in a group setting is like trying to have a conversation during a rock concert (i.e. an impossible task and a complete waste of time). I'm a solitary sort of person. It's just my nature. What keeps me from just completely bailing on Wicca is the possibility that my perceptions of it are all wrong. Maybe the fluffies aren't so numerous. Maybe they're just very loud. Maybe those of us who are neither fluffies nor hard core traditionalists are more numerous than I think. I always got irritated when people threatened to leave the country when their candidate wasn't elected. It is my opinion that you don't bail on something when the going gets rough, then come back when things get smoothed out. If my perceptions of Wicca are wrong, that is exactly what I'd be doing if I left the religion. But if the religion really is being dominated by people whose beliefs are significantly different from mine (or if I've changed so much since I did my self-dedication that perhaps Wicca really isn't for me anymore) then I'd be a fool to stay. Any thoughts?

Once again, if I offended anyone with this, I'm truly sorry. Offense was not my intent. I'm trying to express some fairly complicated feelings about this, and odds are I slipped up and didn't express something properly. For this I apologize.

[Cyzarine]

Oh, don't go anywhere. I may not be wiccan...only a witch, but I saw your thread. I thinkm the best thing you can do, for yourself, right now is be solitary. I was there once. Well, prbably more then once. I am actually solitary now because of my beliefs and my path. It is up to you to decided which path is right for you even if others do not think it is a valid or correct path...or a correct way to go about it. I wish you luck n your spiritual journey wherever it takes you. You need to do what you need to do to find that balance within.

[Erincelt]

I'm with you about 98%. The 2% I disagree on? The seasons. While I agree that they're going to happen regardless of me observing or not observing their cycle, I don't take that as a reason not to observe. Rather, its my understanding as a Wiccan that that is precisely why to observe them. Our lives go through phases and cycles, just like the nature all around us does, and so by observing and "attuning" with nature's cycles, we get an advantage to understanding and directing our personal cycles. Yipee, its Winter Solstice, the daylight is renewing itself -- maybe I need to renew some of the essentials in my life. Yipee, its May Eve, birth surrounds me, festivals galore -- maybe its time to get back in touch with what makes life worth living. And so on.

And I'm not sure why you call these things "difference from ([orthodox])" Wiccans, especially the embracing of Death and its relatives. Any other attitude is simple delusion... But that's me talking, and I'm an a-hole. :D

[Valnorran]

I'm with you about 98%. The 2% I disagree on? The seasons. While I agree that they're going to happen regardless of me observing or not observing their cycle, I don't take that as a reason not to observe. Rather, its my understanding as a Wiccan that that is precisely why to observe them. Our lives go through phases and cycles, just like the nature all around us does, and so by observing and "attuning" with nature's cycles, we get an advantage to understanding and directing our personal cycles. Yipee, its Winter Solstice, the daylight is renewing itself -- maybe I need to renew some of the essentials in my life. Yipee, its May Eve, birth surrounds me, festivals galore -- maybe its time to get back in touch with what makes life worth living. And so on.
Well, another thing is that the seasons here in southern Louisiana are very odd. Winter, for example, is very erratic. Christmas of 2004 was the first white Christmas of my life, though it was sleet rather than snow. I've also had Christmasses when the temp. was in the eighties. It's kind of hard to think in terms of a winter solstice when snakes are slithering through the yard. It's just one of those things I don't feel the need to do. I was like that as a Christian, too. Epiphany, Pentacost, and all that just didn't mean much to me. Some little peculiarity of personality, I guess.
And I'm not sure why you call these things "difference from ([orthodox])" Wiccans, especially the embracing of Death and its relatives. Any other attitude is simple delusion...
I agree, but it just seems like we're overrun with those who focus entirely on the white light and ignore (and sometimes hate) the shadows.

[Serenity's LostSoul]

It sounds to me that it is more the label that bothers you rather than your beliefs. Why label yourself then? I found myself looking for a label to define myself, I guess as a means of 'fitting in' or something...but I've come to realize that a label doesn't make me. I make the label. And basically I'm just me; I believe the things I believe and there's really nothing that I could say that would tell someone, 'oh, she believes this, this and this. Got it.'

If, on the rare occasion I'm ever asked, I simply say I'm pagan. Let them take from that what they will.

Mayhap that's what you need to do and disconnect yourself from labelling.

:)

ETA: Did that make any sense? *L*

[Summer Cerise]

First, a disclaimer. This is mostly me venting my feelings about something while trying to make sense of it. It is not my intent to offend, and if I do offend anyone I am truly sorry. I don't mean to, but my sentiments about this are complicated and in trying to express them I'm likely to slip up. I welcome whatever suggestions anyone has.

I find myself at a crossroads right now. I've been a solitary ecclectic Wiccan for about ten years now, but I find myself growing rather uncomfortable with having the term "Wiccan" applied to me. It just feels like the fluffy bunnies/Disney Wiccans pretty much dominate the Wiccan scene. Maybe they don't, but it sure feels that way. Go into a bookstore and browse the Pagan/New Age section and what do you see? Anytime the subject of Wicca or witchcraft is on television it seems like the producers go out of their way to find the absolute silliest representatives of the religion. Even National Geographic has been guilty of this. Being inundated with such things, I have to ask myself, "Am I the only Wiccan who isn't like this?" Well, sites such as this and others clearly answer "No, you're not," but it still seems like those of us who are neither fluffies nor direct descendants of a tradition are very, very small in number. I confess that I'm almost embarrassed to be thought of as a Wiccan because it seems like to most people Wiccan = fluffy bunny. *sigh* I'm probably not doing a very good job of expressing myself on this. Perhaps if I listed the ways in which I seem to differ from other (dare I say, orthodox?) Wiccans.

I recognize (and sometimes embrace) the fact that death, destruction, and chaos are every bit as much a part of nature and the universe as life, creation, and order. Ergo, nature isn't always rainbows, pink sunsets, and smiling dolphins. It's also earthquakes, plagues, and wild dogs scarfing down a mother antelope and her calf while they're still alive.

I can think of a few, very few and very certain conditions under which I'd use magic to harm someone. I see it in the same terms I see physical force. Under very certain conditions, I'd use physical force to defend myself and loved ones. Under even fewer cirumstances, I'd use deadly force. I see no reason why magical use would be any different.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe in the healing power of crystals and I can't make myself believe in it.

I have no ethical problems with killing and eating another organism.

I feel no need whatsoever to attune myself to the seasons. For one thing, where I live there is very little dilineation between them. For another, they're going to come and go regardless of whether I observe them or not. I find each season has a different feeling, or perhaps flavor would be more accurate. At any rate, I notice this feeling or flavor without any use of ritual at all.

I tuly think I'm the only Wiccan in the entire history of the religion who is politically conservative. Most people regard this blending of belief systems as positively schitzophrenic. I've considered going Asatru, but I don't feel the affinity for the Norse gods that I do for the Celtic ones.

I'm about 98% in agreement with the sentiments expressed on the site "Wicca for the Rest of Us." There are only one or two things I disagree with there.

I'm seriously considering just being a solitary ecclectic Pagan. I worship Celtic dieties, but I don't consider myself a Druid or recon. I don't think Druids recognize solitaries, and I don't think we know enough about Celtic religious practices to have an accurate reconstruction of them. I'm a solitary by choice. I do not want to be in a coven. I find trying to commune with my gods in a group setting is like trying to have a conversation during a rock concert (i.e. an impossible task and a complete waste of time). I'm a solitary sort of person. It's just my nature. What keeps me from just completely bailing on Wicca is the possibility that my perceptions of it are all wrong. Maybe the fluffies aren't so numerous. Maybe they're just very loud. Maybe those of us who are neither fluffies nor hard core traditionalists are more numerous than I think. I always got irritated when people threatened to leave the country when their candidate wasn't elected. It is my opinion that you don't bail on something when the going gets rough, then come back when things get smoothed out. If my perceptions of Wicca are wrong, that is exactly what I'd be doing if I left the religion. But if the religion really is being dominated by people whose beliefs are significantly different from mine (or if I've changed so much since I did my self-dedication that perhaps Wicca really isn't for me anymore) then I'd be a fool to stay. Any thoughts?

Once again, if I offended anyone with this, I'm truly sorry. Offense was not my intent. I'm trying to express some fairly complicated feelings about this, and odds are I slipped up and didn't express something properly. For this I apologize.


I am new to Paganism and I suppose like a lot of newbies, felt like I needed a label for myself. Best I could figure, since I wasn't sure exactly what I did and did not believe yet, was Solitary Eclectic Wiccan. After arriving here and hearing the views of others and checking out their recommended readings, I can see that the label has been hindering me in seeking the truth of what it is I do believe. I am coming to realize that solitary is fitting to me, but that eclectic and Wiccan are not. Here, I am learning so much new information, that I was not exposed to before and find myself feeling as though I am back at the beginning again. lol I suppose I never really got anywhere and was just going in circles anyway. I think I understand some of what you are feeling. I know that you have been with this much longer than I have, and I am probably too inexperienced to even attempt to help, but if I may say to you, do not worry what others think of you or what your beliefs are, but be true to your feelings, thoughts, and beliefs and search for what feels right within you. I hope you find your answers and that I have made some sense and not made things worse.

[Shanti]

Sounds to me like growing pains..

grow, change, embrace and enjoy!!

[Jenne]

I think only you can truly decide if this label fits you or not, for it is you living within its confines...no one else. If you feel you've expanded beyond it, or shrunk so much it no longer fits, then by all means discard it.

After all, what is the harm in calling yourself merely "Pagan?" I see no real controversy here, if you truly believe that you've more/less left the "Wiccan" label behind you in your journey. Perhaps because you're used to it, and cannot fathom and easy change between the two. But if it shifted, going with the movement will probably cost you less in the end, then merely resisting such changes.

:hugz: Your honesty and bafflement are engaging and refreshing. Whatever the decision, peace for you as you make your way on your path.

[azzeenasman]

Well,what do I know.

Im definatly not for the ,Do as ye will and harm ye none.

Some people need to be harmed,And I can think of one I would like to harm real bad.(the man who murdered his 2 five year old girls last night here in charloote NC.)

Besides,how did the ancient pagans feel about things like,War?

Or retribution?Someone said they were barbaric,and I guess that means we are more enlightened,but I dont know.I think the ancients knew more than we do despite the fact we are more advanced in the area of knowledge.

Here is an invocation to Athena,and it does not sound fluffy ,and forget the harm ye none part.It isnt there.

Beautifull maiden Athena,wise and just ruler
Disiplined in war and the pursuits of the mind
bearing the serpent of wisdom and the olive branch of peace
I call to you and ask you to fill me with your inspiration
Great Goddess,you destroy the unworthy
And bring power to those who honor you in truth
I anoint myself with the oil of your olives
And offer my love and reverance to thee.

Well,this sounds a bit powerhungry and judgmental by todays standards,BUT if you are a Goddess,you can afford to be bossy and mean.:hahugh:

[KEishin]

Well, another thing is that the seasons here in southern Louisiana are very odd. Winter, for example, is very erratic. Christmas of 2004 was the first white Christmas of my life, though it was sleet rather than snow. I've also had Christmasses when the temp. was in the eighties. It's kind of hard to think in terms of a winter solstice when snakes are slithering through the yard. It's just one of those things I don't feel the need to do. I was like that as a Christian, too. Epiphany, Pentacost, and all that just didn't mean much to me. Some little peculiarity of personality, I guess.
Well, part of the problem is that Wicca was codified in a geographical area that *did* have extremes of weather. That makes it that much harder for those who live close to the equator. Sometimes you just have to tweak things until they fit. Many Australian groups hold Beltane on November 1, because that's when it actually *is* spring/summer.

I also have a good friend outside of LA who runs into the same issues. She doesn't really have spring or fall. She connects to the energetic changes on the astral that correspond to the changing of the seasons.


I agree, but it just seems like we're overrun with those who focus entirely on the white light and ignore (and sometimes hate) the shadows.
Gaah. I hear you there. It's all about the balance - you can't define light without shadow, so how can you focus only on the light? I just want to say to them that the world is not a nice place and it will not coddle you . . . so suck it up and cope already!

[RainInanna]

Hm, I can totally identify with you. I avoided Wicca for years partially because it seemed to mean white light fluffiness to so many.

However, while I studied various other paths, nothing felt as "right" as Wicca did. I decided maybe it was my definition of Wicca that needed redesigning, and that I should learn more about it's traditional core rather than just discarding it. You may wish to throw out the word because you feel you use it differently than most, but don't throw the baby out with the bathwater - it could still be a meaningful spirituality for you.

That said, I don't think Wiccans are necessarily vegetarians who use crystals and disregard the laws of nature. Certainly though my definition of Wicca is just my own. You'll have to define it for yourself and then determine if it fits.

[Erincelt]

Well,what do I know.

Im definatly not for the ,Do as ye will and harm ye none.
Hmm...

An' it harm none, do as thou wilt. An' it cause harm, do as thou must.
Lycian Wiccan Rede; so expanded to try to help thwart this common misunderstanding of the common Rede. First, remember that the very word "Rede" means advice/guideline, not hard fast Law. Second, the Rede is not really about not harming, ultimately -- instead, it is an affirmation of Freedom. If there is harm that needs doing, by the Lord & Lady, do it!

So mote it be. Amen.

[Bix]

I understand what you're saying totally. I also had a while where I was really ashamed to call myself Wiccan. I'm still debating on what exactly I am. I -do- want to label myself because I want to find others out there like me so I can find a community with them.

It's just so hard to find books and information on Wicca that goes past the basic information that has been regurgitated over and over again.

[Temptation]

Sounds to me like you've outgrown the religion. You no longer need what it once offered you. There's nothing wrong with that. Life is not static, we must grow and evolve or we won't ever learn anything.

We often find ourselves at crossroads where our intuition tells us exactly which way to go but for some reason we're afraid of moving on. We're afraid of letting go of what feels familiar and safe, but we must for it's the only way to really find out who we are and what we really need.

Let go of the Wiccan label for a while and see how you feel. You can always go back, there's nothing wrong with a little experimenting every now and then. And maybe you'll find, as I did, that you don't want to go back.

Wicca made a lot of sense to me for a while but I eventually found myself exactly where you are and for most of the same reasons (okay, except for the political stuff ;) ). So I looked elsewhere for answers. I looked in a lot of places and the same thing happened to me each time. I kept outgrowing every single religion I came across. I still carry parts of each religion with me, the parts that make sense to me. My mind has become an amalgam of faiths that even I can't fully comprehend.

I've made my own path with all the bits and pieces I've collected along the way and Wicca is definitely in there somewhere. I'm happy as a solitary, just like you. I don't feel the need to connect with other people to validate my beliefs. I found that my beliefs don't really fit anywhere because they keep shape-shifting on me. :lol: I confuse the heck out of people because there are so many contradictions in my spirituality that no one but me seems to grasp.

So I walk alone and don't label myself anymore. I mean what's the point? The labels just fall off me faster than I can pin them. :lol:

Best of luck, Val. You're a very smart man and I know you'll figure out which way to go very soon. :)

[Sage Rainsong]

I understand your problem.I just say that I am a pagan or a pagan witch because of technicalities. Its still true and I am more comfortable with that label. Of course you may not need the label at all.

I don't think Druids recognize solitaries,

That is actually not true. You may want to look into ADF. They recognize solitaries. (in fact one of their members just wrote a book titled, the solitary druid) And they do not pretend that they are acurately reconstructing celtic rituals.

Anyway Im sorry that you are going through such a struggle but you will find your way of doing things eventually. Good luck to you.

[Valnorran]

Thanks for all the replies. I mostly interested in a label to 1) fix the concept in my own mind and 2) make explanations easier to others. I think I'll set down the Wiccan label for a while and try on the Pagan one and see how it feels.

[Kudzu]

I think I'll set down the Wiccan label for a while and try on the Pagan one and see how it feels.

Good choice! And, good luck!

[Lunacie]

Maybe I haven't had as much experience with "Wicca Light" and "FluffyBunnyWicca" but I know what Wicca is supposed to be and that's what feels right to me. What others do under the label of Wicca doesn't really affect what Wicca means to me and what I am, so I am still Wiccan.

What attracted me to Wicca in the first place was the balance between light and dark, between creation and destruction, between order and chaos. That certainly fits me and I believe that polarity is a core part of Wicca.

I like the way you related physical force and magical force, great way of explaining that.

Crystals don't do much for me, but they may be a terrific tool for someone else. In fact, I don't use tools at all unless I'm working in a group situation so that we can all focus on the same thing.

I think killing and eating is part of the natural order. I also think killing for sport and wasting the life and the physical remains is very wrong.

I'm aware of the changing seasons, and I like to observe them, but I don't always celebrate them with any ritual, again unless I'm working in a group situation.

Wicca For the Rest of Us is a much better site now than it was two years ago, and I find much less to disagree with in it these days. Bravo to Catherine Noble for putting it together and getting it out on the web as a balance to the fluffy stuff.

I think there are a lot of fluffies and some of them are very loud, but I also think the fluffies don't stick with it, it's the flavor of the month for most of them. They come and they go, leaving the religion intact for those of us who seriously follow the principles and beliefs.

[stella01904]

I find myself at a crossroads right now. I've been a solitary ecclectic Wiccan for about ten years now, but I find myself growing rather uncomfortable with having the term "Wiccan" applied to me.MM ~ Yeah, in the realms you mention (bookstores and television). Those guys always get it wrong. A lot of people, like Laurie Cabot, worked really hard to dispel the misconception that Witches eat children, etc. and it's backfired, everything has become sugarcoated. I confess that I'm almost embarrassed to be thought of as a Wiccan because it seems like to most people Wiccan = fluffy bunny. It's like the cutesyfying of the Fae, the mainstream takes the edginess out. You end up with a filleted fish that is palatable for everyone, in a Hallmarky kind of way. If it's declawed and neutered, they're missing the point, though. *sigh* I'm probably not doing a very good job of expressing myself on this. Perhaps if I listed the ways in which I seem to differ from other (dare I say, orthodox?) Wiccans.I don't think there is much of an orthodoxy, or if there is, it's the Old Guard and not the fluffies, but have at it...
I recognize (and sometimes embrace) the fact that death, destruction, and chaos are every bit as much a part of nature and the universe as life, creation, and order. Ergo, nature isn't always rainbows, pink sunsets, and smiling dolphins. It's also earthquakes, plagues, and wild dogs scarfing down a mother antelope and her calf while they're still alive. True!
I can think of a few, very few and very certain conditions under which I'd use magic to harm someone. I see it in the same terms I see physical force. Under very certain conditions, I'd use physical force to defend myself and loved ones. Under even fewer cirumstances, I'd use deadly force. I see no reason why magical use would be any different.Magical ethics should be no different from "regular" ethics. I catch somebody hurting my kids, they get a magical zap to go with the physical and the legal. Twas ever thus and this is the TRADITIONAL view, since Nature is our model. All this "turn the other cheek" stuff comes from outside.
I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe in the healing power of crystals and I can't make myself believe in it.I can't get that to work, either. They're great for divination, though.
I have no ethical problems with killing and eating another organism.As Joseph Campbell said, anything you eat was alive until recently. Can't you hear the little carrots screaming? ;)
I feel no need whatsoever to attune myself to the seasons. For one thing, where I live there is very little dilineation between them. For another, they're going to come and go regardless of whether I observe them or not. I find each season has a different feeling, or perhaps flavor would be more accurate. At any rate, I notice this feeling or flavor without any use of ritual at all.The way I understand it, being in Circle at Sabbats and Esbats puts you in accord with the "tides of power". It makes you stronger.
I tuly think I'm the only Wiccan in the entire history of the religion who is politically conservative. Most people regard this blending of belief systems as positively schitzophrenic. There seem to be a lot of you here. It's strange to me, but whatever floats your boat..I've considered going Asatru, but I don't feel the affinity for the Norse gods that I do for the Celtic ones.Then stay put. Screw what people think. I'm What keeps me from just completely bailing on Wicca is the possibility that my perceptions of it are all wrong. Maybe the fluffies aren't so numerous. Maybe they're just very loud. Maybe those of us who are neither fluffies nor hard core traditionalists are more numerous than I think.... Any thoughts?You said you prefer working solitary. Stop worrying about what everybody else is doing, or what other people think, or whatever and work solitary, work Celtic, do whatever. Witchcraft isn't about "fitting in" or what anybody else thinks.
BB, Stella
PS For those who are interested in such things and what bearing it may or may not have had on my reply, I work with an Italian pantheon but incorporate Wiccan elements in my rituals. Like when I can't get things like fennel stalks. ;)

[Catiana]

First, a disclaimer. This is mostly me venting my feelings about something while trying to make sense of it. It is not my intent to offend, and if I do offend anyone I am truly sorry. I don't mean to, but my sentiments about this are complicated and in trying to express them I'm likely to slip up. I welcome whatever suggestions anyone has.

I find myself at a crossroads right now. I've been a solitary ecclectic Wiccan for about ten years now, but I find myself growing rather uncomfortable with having the term "Wiccan" applied to me. It just feels like the fluffy bunnies/Disney Wiccans pretty much dominate the Wiccan scene. Maybe they don't, but it sure feels that way. Go into a bookstore and browse the People/New Age section and what do you see? Anytime the subject of Wicca or witchcraft is on television it seems like the producers go out of their way to find the absolute silliest representatives of the religion. Even National Geographic has been guilty of this. Being inundated with such things, I have to ask myself, "Am I the only Wiccan who isn't like this?" Well, sites such as this and others clearly answer "No, you're not," but it still seems like those of us who are neither fluffies nor direct descendants of a tradition are very, very small in number. I confess that I'm almost embarrassed to be thought of as a Wiccan because it seems like to most people Wiccan = fluffy bunny. *sigh* I'm probably not doing a very good job of expressing myself on this. Perhaps if I listed the ways in which I seem to differ from other (dare I say, orthodox?) Wiccans.

I recognize (and sometimes embrace) the fact that death, destruction, and chaos are every bit as much a part of nature and the universe as life, creation, and order. Ergo, nature isn't always rainbows, pink sunsets, and smiling dolphins. It's also earthquakes, plagues, and wild dogs scarfing down a mother antelope and her calf while they're still alive.

I can think of a few, very few and very certain conditions under which I'd use magic to harm someone. I see it in the same terms I see physical force. Under very certain conditions, I'd use physical force to defend myself and loved ones. Under even fewer cirumstances, I'd use deadly force. I see no reason why magical use would be any different.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe in the healing power of crystals and I can't make myself believe in it.

I have no ethical problems with killing and eating another organism.

I feel no need whatsoever to attune myself to the seasons. For one thing, where I live there is very little dilineation between them. For another, they're going to come and go regardless of whether I observe them or not. I find each season has a different feeling, or perhaps flavor would be more accurate. At any rate, I notice this feeling or flavor without any use of ritual at all.

I tuly think I'm the only Wiccan in the entire history of the religion who is politically conservative. Most people regard this blending of belief systems as positively schitzophrenic. I've considered going Asatru, but I don't feel the affinity for the Norse gods that I do for the Celtic ones.

I'm about 98% in agreement with the sentiments expressed on the site "Wicca for the Rest of Us." There are only one or two things I disagree with there.

I'm seriously considering just being a solitary ecclectic People. I worship Celtic dieties, but I don't consider myself a Druid or recon. I don't think Druids recognize solitaries, and I don't think we know enough about Celtic religious practices to have an accurate reconstruction of them. I'm a solitary by choice. I do not want to be in a coven. I find trying to commune with my gods in a group setting is like trying to have a conversation during a rock concert (i.e. an impossible task and a complete waste of time). I'm a solitary sort of person. It's just my nature. What keeps me from just completely bailing on Wicca is the possibility that my perceptions of it are all wrong. Maybe the fluffies aren't so numerous. Maybe they're just very loud. Maybe those of us who are neither fluffies nor hard core traditionalists are more numerous than I think. I always got irritated when people threatened to leave the country when their candidate wasn't elected. It is my opinion that you don't bail on something when the going gets rough, then come back when things get smoothed out. If my perceptions of Wicca are wrong, that is exactly what I'd be doing if I left the religion. But if the religion really is being dominated by people whose beliefs are significantly different from mine (or if I've changed so much since I did my self-dedication that perhaps Wicca really isn't for me anymore) then I'd be a fool to stay. Any thoughts?

Once again, if I offended anyone with this, I'm truly sorry. Offense was not my intent. I'm trying to express some fairly complicated feelings about this, and odds are I slipped up and didn't express something properly. For this I apologize.


I'm an eclectic solitary Wiccan too and you have described my beliefs almost perfectly. The only difference, and I mean, the only difference, everything else is exactly the same, is I have a different pantheon.

[Nighthawk]

I am not wiccan nor a fluffy... and I like seeing your thoughts. I do not always agree with them. But I like that fact that there is thought behind them. you can do as you wish, but I would see a bit of a void. Everyone is welcome here, something the mods have said forever....
I wish you peace either way you decide.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I recognize (and sometimes embrace) the fact that death, destruction, and chaos are every bit as much a part of nature and the universe as life, creation, and order. Ergo, nature isn't always rainbows, pink sunsets, and smiling dolphins. It's also earthquakes, plagues, and wild dogs scarfing down a mother antelope and her calf while they're still alive.

I can think of a few, very few and very certain conditions under which I'd use magic to harm someone. I see it in the same terms I see physical force. Under very certain conditions, I'd use physical force to defend myself and loved ones. Under even fewer cirumstances, I'd use deadly force. I see no reason why magical use would be any different.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe in the healing power of crystals and I can't make myself believe in it.

I have no ethical problems with killing and eating another organism.

I feel no need whatsoever to attune myself to the seasons. For one thing, where I live there is very little dilineation between them. For another, they're going to come and go regardless of whether I observe them or not. I find each season has a different feeling, or perhaps flavor would be more accurate. At any rate, I notice this feeling or flavor without any use of ritual at all.

I tuly think I'm the only Wiccan in the entire history of the religion who is politically conservative. Most people regard this blending of belief systems as positively schitzophrenic. I've considered going Asatru, but I don't feel the affinity for the Norse gods that I do for the Celtic ones.

I'm about 98% in agreement with the sentiments expressed on the site "Wicca for the Rest of Us." There are only one or two things I disagree with there.Alright, I only differ from you on two points. I'm a damned liberal and I do "attune myself to the seasons"... but I live in the Midwest. Our seasons starkly contrast each other.

However, we have a woman in my coven who is not just conservative, but a conservative Republican. She's been Wiccan for many many years. It's not a contradiction in terms, though some do indeed claim that. Some people also claim that homosexuals or blacks can't be conservative. Whatever. That's just closed-mindedness. Most of the rest of us, in my coven, that is, are very liberal, too, but we just avoid the political discussion while we're focusing on religious business. I've seen people make the case, though, convincingly, that Wicca is a very good fit for libertarianism based on the ideals of Wicca. Meh. I like to think that the Wiccan religion is a bit beyond party politics, despite what some rather loud Wiccans might profess.


As far as the seasons go, I've seen people scrap all agricultural references, and still have powerful sabbat rituals. But even so, a lot of groups don't seem to emphasize the Sabbats as much as mine does. I think there's a lot of room for variation there, and simply not feeling a need to observe the seasons when a lot of that imagery doesn't apply to your life, well, I wouldn't say that disqualifies you from being Wiccan.

I don't know. I think that the "fluffs" are just really loud... They are numerous, to be sure, but there are plenty sensible, down-to-earth Wiccans as well. Until that damned movie "The Craft" came out, all the Wiccans I knew were the down-to-earth kind. Of course, I was 12 (rented it for my 13th birthday) and so it was all people in my immediate circle. But still... ^_^

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[mystic_zoe]

First, a disclaimer. This is mostly me venting my feelings about something while trying to make sense of it. It is not my intent to offend, and if I do offend anyone I am truly sorry. I don't mean to, but my sentiments about this are complicated and in trying to express them I'm likely to slip up. I welcome whatever suggestions anyone has.

I find myself at a crossroads right now. I've been a solitary ecclectic Wiccan for about ten years now, but I find myself growing rather uncomfortable with having the term "Wiccan" applied to me. It just feels like the fluffy bunnies/Disney Wiccans pretty much dominate the Wiccan scene. Maybe they don't, but it sure feels that way. Go into a bookstore and browse the Pagan/New Age section and what do you see? Anytime the subject of Wicca or witchcraft is on television it seems like the producers go out of their way to find the absolute silliest representatives of the religion. Even National Geographic has been guilty of this. Being inundated with such things, I have to ask myself, "Am I the only Wiccan who isn't like this?" Well, sites such as this and others clearly answer "No, you're not," but it still seems like those of us who are neither fluffies nor direct descendants of a tradition are very, very small in number. I confess that I'm almost embarrassed to be thought of as a Wiccan because it seems like to most people Wiccan = fluffy bunny. *sigh* I'm probably not doing a very good job of expressing myself on this. Perhaps if I listed the ways in which I seem to differ from other (dare I say, orthodox?) Wiccans.

I recognize (and sometimes embrace) the fact that death, destruction, and chaos are every bit as much a part of nature and the universe as life, creation, and order. Ergo, nature isn't always rainbows, pink sunsets, and smiling dolphins. It's also earthquakes, plagues, and wild dogs scarfing down a mother antelope and her calf while they're still alive.

I can think of a few, very few and very certain conditions under which I'd use magic to harm someone. I see it in the same terms I see physical force. Under very certain conditions, I'd use physical force to defend myself and loved ones. Under even fewer cirumstances, I'd use deadly force. I see no reason why magical use would be any different.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe in the healing power of crystals and I can't make myself believe in it.

I have no ethical problems with killing and eating another organism.

I feel no need whatsoever to attune myself to the seasons. For one thing, where I live there is very little dilineation between them. For another, they're going to come and go regardless of whether I observe them or not. I find each season has a different feeling, or perhaps flavor would be more accurate. At any rate, I notice this feeling or flavor without any use of ritual at all.

I tuly think I'm the only Wiccan in the entire history of the religion who is politically conservative. Most people regard this blending of belief systems as positively schitzophrenic. I've considered going Asatru, but I don't feel the affinity for the Norse gods that I do for the Celtic ones.

I'm about 98% in agreement with the sentiments expressed on the site "Wicca for the Rest of Us." There are only one or two things I disagree with there.

I'm seriously considering just being a solitary ecclectic Pagan. I worship Celtic dieties, but I don't consider myself a Druid or recon. I don't think Druids recognize solitaries, and I don't think we know enough about Celtic religious practices to have an accurate reconstruction of them. I'm a solitary by choice. I do not want to be in a coven. I find trying to commune with my gods in a group setting is like trying to have a conversation during a rock concert (i.e. an impossible task and a complete waste of time). I'm a solitary sort of person. It's just my nature. What keeps me from just completely bailing on Wicca is the possibility that my perceptions of it are all wrong. Maybe the fluffies aren't so numerous. Maybe they're just very loud. Maybe those of us who are neither fluffies nor hard core traditionalists are more numerous than I think. I always got irritated when people threatened to leave the country when their candidate wasn't elected. It is my opinion that you don't bail on something when the going gets rough, then come back when things get smoothed out. If my perceptions of Wicca are wrong, that is exactly what I'd be doing if I left the religion. But if the religion really is being dominated by people whose beliefs are significantly different from mine (or if I've changed so much since I did my self-dedication that perhaps Wicca really isn't for me anymore) then I'd be a fool to stay. Any thoughts?

Once again, if I offended anyone with this, I'm truly sorry. Offense was not my intent. I'm trying to express some fairly complicated feelings about this, and odds are I slipped up and didn't express something properly. For this I apologize.

By no means have you offended me at all!! i havent been wiccan (or pagan) for as long as you have. i do feel as though im in a similar situation. i agree with everything you said, i mean i was reading what you have written and i was like wow. im kinda of like, im comfortable with the solitary and eclectic path, but im not sure about wicca. i do agree and believe with some parts of it but not all which is why i think if im gona label myself i think the label will be pagan rather than just wiccan. what ive decided to do (im not sure if it will help you..) is look at other pagan paths more closely, i mean you may find there are are paths which you kind of fit with. you may not necessarily fit perfectly with any path. but that is ok! just go with what feels right. if wicca doesnt fit with you, then look at other paths. write down what parts of different paths you agree with or believe in. and go from there.

i hope my ramble kind of helped you. i know that reading what you wrote has made me wake up and realise that it doesnt matter if you dont fit with one particular label, it is ok for you to fit with more than one!!

thanks
xx

[Carla O'Harris]

I recognize (and sometimes embrace) the fact that death, destruction, and chaos are every bit as much a part of nature and the universe as life, creation, and order. Ergo, nature isn't always rainbows, pink sunsets, and smiling dolphins. It's also earthquakes, plagues, and wild dogs scarfing down a mother antelope and her calf while they're still alive.

Well, this is true, and I think something amply told in story, but certainly not something highly celebrated. Perhaps "embracing the dark" is a luxury of people's whose lives are secure and to an extent privileged. People trying to get by often tend to focus on the positive because that's what they want to live. And just because wild dogs scarf down a mother antelope and her calf while still alive is no reason to try to increase the numbers of wild dogs doing that, for example.

I can think of a few, very few and very certain conditions under which I'd use magic to harm someone. I see it in the same terms I see physical force. Under very certain conditions, I'd use physical force to defend myself and loved ones. Under even fewer cirumstances, I'd use deadly force. I see no reason why magical use would be any different.

Well, the Norse Sagas are full of such dilemmas. The use of seidr (witch-magic) to harm one's opponents was thought of as cowardly, however, akin to murder, rather than a duel where the person had the right to defend themselves.

I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe in the healing power of crystals and I can't make myself believe in it.

The attribution of powers and magic to stones seems to have a long history all over the world, although the science of that seems yet to really be developed ; and obviously, simply because it's been believed in the past doesn't produce an experience for you in the present. Maybe certain kinds of people are more drawn towards mineral encounters.

I have no ethical problems with killing and eating another organism.

Much of ancient pagan practice was about Temple BBQs, with the butchery taking place on situ in sacred ceremony. That is at least one way to take the thing seriously. Vegetarianism is another way. Both have pagan heritages behind them. You have to choose for yourself. But without getting into an animal rights debate, whether you kill and eat an animal may be a separate issue from the quality of life of the animal while it is alive, and whether it is living free or caged, able to live out its life in some relative analogue of its wild evolutionary existence or not. Again, matters for you to decide individually. Paganism historically has tolerated many different responses to these important questions ; although a concern for animals and the earth are definitely important values.

I feel no need whatsoever to attune myself to the seasons.

I think it more has to do with correlating desires, experiences, and changes with seasonal changes in a group context that provides bonding (or an individual context as a solitary). I think there's a certain "Taoism" to this aspect --- relating your own experiences to the natural flows around you. I think it's completely logical to adapt this to the real natural flows in your area rather than to Northern European ones.

At any rate, I notice this feeling or flavor without any use of ritual at all.


Maybe the point of a ritual at times is simply to commemorate a feeling one finds important.

Im definatly not for the ,Do as ye will and harm ye none.

Some people need to be harmed,

They need to be harmed, or you feel the need to harm them?

Again, I don't think Gardner was aiming at restricting any interference with the will of another, but rather that constraint of another's malevolence was both more effective and more ethical. The problem with any unregulated right to revenge is the speed with which any given individual will justify their actions and their vengeance. Harm is seldom as simple as "good guy, bad guy". There are often complex chains of causation/karma involving various levels of accurate or not so accurate perception and distortion. I suppose that "Binding" involves "involuntary persuasion", but since the intent is to rob a person of their desire to commit harm (as well as their luck in carrying it out), the harm done is minimal. Gardner made it clear that binding/constraining another who was doing harm was a duty. I see this in ways as a kind of "magical restraining order".


Besides,how did the ancient pagans feel about things like,War? Or retribution?

Well, they, like all other humans, had conflicting feelings about these things. At times, for example, the Norse would glorify retribution ; on the other hand, their sagas are full of the foolishness and utter senselessness of the loss of life and potential of the ongoing blood feuds that retribution could generate.

It's complex. I don't get a "white light, peaches and cream" feel from Gardner. He indicates that in the past, witches were a little more loose with their ethics (while still in general intending good), but that certain lessons in discretion were learned during times of persecution. Overt maleficia could get one -- and one's entire coven -- dragged into a torture-court. The "harm none" has a certain pragmatism to it, and I don't mean that just on the level of "p.r." and staying undercover, but realizing the complex chains of karma created by perpetuating harm. Some of the most anti-war people, for example, can be warriors who know what war is actually like. Sometimes it's those scarred by abuse who are most aware of the dangers of abusive patterns. Avoiding harm doesn't have to be about becoming a saint, erasing one's human feelings of anger, or loving everyone equally. If it's reasonable at times to be cynical about peace and love, can't one equally and pragmatically be cynical about war and revenge?


If there is harm that needs doing, by the Lord & Lady, do it!

Again, I don't understand the conditions that would decide this necessity, and what guidelines govern the decision. After all, there are people out there who think you've harmed them merely by looking at them wrong, and might feel quite justified in taking vengeance upon you.

I think the "harm none" adage was arguably learned through hard experience, pragmatically derived from centuries of small-knit groups functioning under oppression. Ever observed how catty and back-biting any group can get under any conditions, let alone small-knit conditions under persecution? Can you imagine giving free reign and sanction to all of this group strife to express itself in magical vengeance? It's like arming junior high school kids with magic wands and saying , "go at it ; get the people you think have injured you". It's like some kind of nightmarish Harry Potter Meets Lord of the Flies. Enough horror stories from survivors of covens that went through such hell, or beyond that were even dragged into court, with a nice "purge" of several of the members, and a certain cautiousness towards harm could easily develop. This wouldn't have to be an inhuman ideal of saintliness ; certainly the desire for vengeance is understandable in many situations, and maybe in some covens there were even ways to ritualize this without causing harm (one wonders whether some cunning-folk accused of maleficia were simply providing harmless psychodrama for their clientele, omitting important triggers that would actually send forth the magic). But any kind of harm-causing in the real world can very easily get tricky, and messy, and knotted.

And for those who believe in karma of some kind or another, and have greater certainty or faith in reincarnation, one can be certain that the knots one ties are going to affect one, and therefore one wants to be careful and cautious.

Even so, Gardner indicates that undoubtedly there were members of covens who broke the guidelines, just as adherents of any religion or set of rules sometimes break the rules, but he adds that it is the coven's responsibility to regulate the situation appropriately.