Gospel of Thomas

[Cyzarine]

I have been reading this Gospel. Has anyone else read it? It isn't in the Bible. It is a supposed lost book of the Bible. Me, I do believe this as true. I believe there to be a lot of stories and visions and work that has been cast out of the Bible. If I may share some passages with you...let's maybe discuss what they mean to us? I don't know, maybe if you've read anothet lost book you can share it here.

16 Jesus said: Perhaps men think that I am come to cast peace upon the world, and know not that I am come to cast divisions upon the earth, fire, sword, war. For there shall be five in a house; there shall be three against two, and two against three, the father against the son and the son against the father, and they shall stand as solitaries.


22 Jesus saw some infants at the breast. He said to his disciples: These little ones at the breast are like those who enter into the kingdom. They said to him: If we then be children, shall we enter the kingdom? Jesus said to them: When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside, and the upper side as the lower; and when you make the male and the female into a single one, that the male be not male and the female female; when you make eyes in the place of an eye, and a hand in place of a hand, and a foot in place of a foot, an image in place of an image, then shall you enter [the kingdom].

This one above is probably my favorite.

114 Simon Peter said to them: Let Mary go forth from among us, for women are not worthy of the life. Jesus said: Behold, I shall lead her, that I may make her male, in order that she also may become a living spirit like you males. For every woman who makes herself male shall enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This one I can't say I like all that much. Of course I think the male part maybe incorrect. I think it is more a meaning of Holy. Like if you make yourself Holy. I don't know though.

[LordHelmet]

The Gospel of thomas was originaly lost, or rather suppressed when gospels other than the four cannonical ones where outlawed. The gospel of Thomas is one of the Gnostic gospels, discovered at Nag Hamadi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library). I don't think that Jesus means to change her gender but to change her social status. Romans nor jews at that time accepted women very well, romans even less. Peter and some of the apostles had some problems with how jesus didn't feel this way. One theroy is that Rome didn't want their gospels (Mathew Mark Luke and John) to reflect this. It makes sense to me.

So where did you get this translation? What's it called and who wrote it? I've been meaning to get a copy of it.

[Amber Wynd]

That's really interesting. I like the second passage best, too. It's quite beautiful. I bought the Gnostic Bible a couple of years ago and never got around to reading it. Partly because I knew I would have lots of questions and no one to discuss the book with. Maybe it's time to read it now that I see other people here are also interested.

[azzeenasman]

Wow,never heard of the Gospel of Thomas,thanx

[talamh]

The Nag Hammadi library and the Dead Sea scrools are both writings of people who were alive during the time of the first and second century C.E. Some scholars say that what we would call the "Christians" had split into two different camps - the followers of Paul and the followers of James the Just who is identified as the brother of Jesus. The followers of Paul evolved into the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The followers of James came to be called gnostics - people who understood or "knew" their faith through experiencing and living what they saw as the revealed "truth", much of which they learned from a particular contemporary teacher we know today as Jesus Christ. The question of whether the Christ had been resurrected from the dead to save the world from sin was not a relevant issue for them. It was the teachings and understanding of the Christ that were important to the gnostics.

This didn't go down very well with the other bunch who eventually patterened itself organizationally with the "top down" structure of the Roman Empire, eventually becoming the official state religion. Because this group had the political power it was able to ban the gnostic bunch and destroy most of their writings that were in conflict with the "official" writings of the Roman church.

But not all of the forbidded writings were destroyed. Some were hiddden in sealed jars in caves and some of them - the Nag Hammadi Library and the Dead Sea Scrolls - were found seperately in the fourties. These documents were supressed to such a degree that they didn't become available to the general public till more then fourty years later. So it is only now that people are beginning to know them and understand the implications of not only what they say, but of what it means that powerful Christian authorities didn't want them to be made available.

The Gnostic writings show a very different early Christian situation. It shows Jesus as having several brothers, some of whom were deciples. It shows Mary Magdelane as the wife and partner of Jesus - perhaps even a Temple-trained priestess. It depicts a belief that women and men are equal in the faith. There are some scholars who say that after Jesus was crucified his family and deciples dispersed. Mary Magdelane and their daughter Sarah fled to Egypt and eventually to southern France. Joseph of Aramathia went to England. The legend of the lost Holy Grail becomes part of folklore and literature.

If you're interested in checking this out, root around for books on the Knights Templar, Freemasonry, Cathars, the Albegensian Crusade, the Inquisition, the Holy Grail and Gnosticism in general. It's a very rich trove of scholarship, conjecture, snake oil and history that they didn't ever teach you about in Sunday School.

[Cyzarine]

The Gospel of thomas was originaly lost, or rather suppressed when gospels other than the four cannonical ones where outlawed. The gospel of Thomas is one of the Gnostic gospels, discovered at Nag Hamadi. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nag_Hammadi_library). I don't think that Jesus means to change her gender but to change her social status. Romans nor jews at that time accepted women very well, romans even less. Peter and some of the apostles had some problems with how jesus didn't feel this way. One theroy is that Rome didn't want their gospels (Mathew Mark Luke and John) to reflect this. It makes sense to me.

So where did you get this translation? What's it called and who wrote it? I've been meaning to get a copy of it.

Yeah, I was thiniking along those lines. The way the language was then compared to now is something that should be taken into consideration. That is why I veiw Christ as the founder of true feminism...lol. It was something a friend let me read and I can't remember the name...I think it is just titled The Gospel of Thomas. I will have to look it up for you. As for who wrote it. I'm not sure. It is a good read and gives some real insite into Christ. Not to much about his life. Not really a story kinda read. It is all about his apostles asking and Christ answering. I want to get a hard copy for myself. I am a collector of books like this. I do have The Book of Enoch which is another great read.

[Cyzarine]

The followers of Paul evolved into the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The followers of James came to be called gnostics - people who understood or "knew" their faith through experiencing and living what they saw as the revealed "truth", much of which they learned from a particular contemporary teacher we know today as Jesus Christ.

Yeah, this is where most people have a problem with me being Byzantine Catholic Witch and my veiws on this subject. A little known fact is that true Byzantines followed the teaching of Christ...under James. The only reason I think most don't know this is because Byzantines felt forced to commune with the Roman Catholics...or The Vatican. I wish I still had my grandfathers old book. Him and his family founded one of the biggest Byzantine churches in Chicago. I guess it was actually some sort of magickal book because my mom and dad where kind of freaked by it and got rid of it. I think they sold it because when they would throw it out it would always wind up back in the house somehow. I hated that they got rid of it because it seemed interesting. I know it had something about our family and church history. The gnostics, gospels, etc...but I never got to read it like I wish I could have.

[azzeenasman]

Well,this is all new to me.

[LacyRoze]

I haven't read the Gospel of Thomas but I did and am again reading the Gospel of Mary Magdalene. I've found it quite interesting...

[AwareAbleVision]

Yeah, this is where most people have a problem with me being Byzantine Catholic Witch and my veiws on this subject. A little known fact is that true Byzantines followed the teaching of Christ...under James. The only reason I think most don't know this is because Byzantines felt forced to commune with the Roman Catholics...or The Vatican. I wish I still had my grandfathers old book. Him and his family founded one of the biggest Byzantine churches in Chicago. I guess it was actually some sort of magickal book because my mom and dad where kind of freaked by it and got rid of it. I think they sold it because when they would throw it out it would always wind up back in the house somehow. I hated that they got rid of it because it seemed interesting. I know it had something about our family and church history. The gnostics, gospels, etc...but I never got to read it like I wish I could have.
Check out the Apocrypha and make an effort to call that family book BACK to you where it belongs. Blessings

AAV

P.S...very sweet lookn babies hun

[Dancing Sky]

I'm fascinated by the "heretical" texts. Some are very insightful and wise, while others are a little silly (the Infancy Gospel of Thomas in particular). I've just started reading the Essene Gospel of Peace. Coming from a Pagan background, I really liked the emphasis on the Earthly Mother and the more pantheistic views. Here are a few passages:

"The blood which runs in us is born of the blood of our Earthly Mother. Her blood falls from the clouds; leaps from the womb of the earth; babbles in the brooks of the mountains; flows wide in the rivers of the plains; sleeps in the lakes; rages mightily in tempestuous seas.

"The air which we breathe is born of the breath of our Earthly Mother. Her breath is azure in the heights of the heavens; soughs in the tops of the mountains; whispers the leaves of the forest;

"I tell you in very truth, Man is the Son of the Earthly Mother, and from her did the Son of Man receive his whole body, even as the body of the newborn babe is born of the womb of his mother. I tell you truly, you are one with the Earthly Mother; she is in you, and you in her. Of her were you born, in her do you live, and to her shall you return again. Keep, therefore, her laws, for none can live long, neither be happy, but he who honors his Earthly Mother and does her laws. For your breath is her breath; your blood her blood; your bone her bone; your flesh her flesh; your bowels her bowels; your eyes and your ears are her eyes and her ears.

For your Mother bore you, keeps life within you. She has given you her body, and none but she heals you. Happy is he who loves his Mother and lies quietly in her bosom. For your Mother loves you, even when you turn away from her. And how much more shall she love you, if you turn to her again? I tell you truly, very great is her love, greater than the greatest of mountains, deeper than the deepest seas. And those who love their Mother, she never deserts them. As the hen protects her chickens, as the lioness her cubs, as the mother her newborn babe, so does the Earthly Mother protect the Son of Man from all danger and from all evils.

Seek not the law in your scriptures, for the law is life, whereas the scripture is dead. I tell you truly, Moses received not his laws from God in writing, but through the living word. The law is living word of living God to living prophets for living men. In everything that is life is the law written. You find it in the grass, in the tree, in the river, in the mountain, in the birds of heaven, in the fishes of the sea; but seek it chiefly in yourselves. For I tell you truly, all living things are nearer to God than the scripture which is without life. God so made life and all living things that they might by the everlasting word teach the laws of the true God to man. God wrote not the laws in the pages of books, but in your heart and in your spirit. They are in your breath, your blood, your bone; in your flesh, your bowels, your eyes, your ears, and in every little part of your body. They are present in the air, in the water, in the earth, in the plants, in the sunbeams, in the depths and in the heights. They all speak to you that you may understand the tongue and the will of the living God. But you shut your eyes that you may not see, and you shut your ears that you may not hear. I tell you truly, that the scripture is the work of man, but life and all its hosts are the work of our God. Wherefore do you not listen to the words of God which are written in His works? And wherefore do you study the dead scriptures which are the work of the hands of men?"

For truly, no one can reach the Heavenly Father unless through the Earthly Mother. Even as no newborn babe can understand the teaching of his father till his mother has suckled him, bathed him, nursed him, put him to sleep and nurtured him.

"It is by love, that the Heavenly Father and the Earthly Mother and the Son of Man become one. For the spirit of the Son of Man was created from the spirit of the Heaven Father, and his body from the body of the Earthly Mother.

And so love your true brothers, as your Heavenly Father and your Earthly Mother love them. And then your Heavenly Father shall give you his holy spirit, and your Earthly Mother shall give you her holy body. And then shall the Sons of Men like true brothers give love one to another, the love which they received from their Heavenly Father and from their Earthly Mother; and they shall all become comforters one of another. And then shall disappear from the earth all evil and all sorrow, and there shall be love and joy upon earth. And then shall the earth be like the heavens, and the kingdom of God shall come.

[LordHelmet]

Some scholars say that what we would call the "Christians" had split into two different camps - the followers of Paul and the followers of James the Just who is identified as the brother of Jesus. The followers of Paul evolved into the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox churches. The followers of James came to be called gnostics - people who understood or "knew" their faith through experiencing and living what they saw as the revealed "truth", much of which they learned from a particular contemporary teacher we know today as Jesus Christ.

Another theroy, one that makes more sense to me, is that there were to pauls, or to authors. The original being a philosopher, who taught a mystery Cult (school) which, like all the other mystery cults, had a Godman image. (see Osiris Dyonisious Group in Wikkipedia) He, unlike the gnostics at Nag Hamadi, saw christs death as very important, just not something that necissarily actually happened. (ex Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.) However there was either a branch off following or seperate contesting group that felt that christ should be taken litteraly. They wouldn't have gotten away with it when paul was alive but after he died they went ahead and forged other letters supporting their viewpoint. Probably the same sorces as our cannonicle gospels (the good ol' four.)

Either way catholiscism didn't start until around 200ad and it was probably the above mentioned litteralists. It wasn't Roman Catholicism until around 400with constantine making it offical roman religion. Then they split up about something silly like whether christ was a man or God or half and half or all both. That and a disagreement as to whether the top bishop had athority form God. After that there was Roman Catholicism with a Pope, and Byzintine without anyone who called themselves anything more than human.



There are some scholars who say that after Jesus was crucified his family and deciples dispersed. Mary Magdelane and their daughter Sarah fled to Egypt and eventually to southern France. Joseph of Aramathia went to England. The legend of the lost Holy Grail becomes part of folklore and literature.

If you're interested in checking this out, root around for books on the Knights Templar, Freemasonry, Cathars, the Albegensian Crusade, the Inquisition, the Holy Grail and Gnosticism in general. It's a very rich trove of scholarship, conjecture, snake oil and history that they didn't ever teach you about in Sunday School.

The whole theroy with Jesus and Mary having a daughter is pretty much baseless, Dan Brown almost made that one up. And he was so close too! The Grail represents the feminine. The Holy Grail is supposed to be missing. The Holy feminine has been missing. For the Jews it was Sophia, Isreal also may have had Ester or Ishtar, the gnostics, Mary Magdalyne. For the Cathors, it might have been any of these or all, but they seem to have had a holy feminine who was also equal. The Knights Templar had Baphomet who would transfer over in hebrew in code to Sophia. But then where has she been for the regular catholics, they have Virgin Mary.

It's just that the Virgin doesn't quite add up to the holy trinity, the pope and the entire rest of the men of the cloth combined. there's still a lacking feminine element.

So If you want to find the Holy Grail, it's not a black slave girl on a boat, she can be foud right here on MysticWicks, Thats what I think anyway.

Sorry for being long winded.

[Cyzarine]

The whole theroy with Jesus and Mary having a daughter is pretty much baseless, Dan Brown almost made that one up. And he was so close too! The Grail represents the feminine. The Holy Grail is supposed to be missing. The Holy feminine has been missing. For the Jews it was Sophia, Isreal also may have had Ester or Ishtar, the gnostics, Mary Magdalyne. For the Cathors, it might have been any of these or all, but they seem to have had a holy feminine who was also equal. The Knights Templar had Baphomet who would transfer over in hebrew in code to Sophia. But then where has she been for the regular catholics, they have Virgin Mary.

It's just that the Virgin doesn't quite add up to the holy trinity, the pope and the entire rest of the men of the cloth combined. there's still a lacking feminine element.

Well, the Byzantines believe, even though we cannot say it out right now without being called heretics, that Sophia = Wisdom = Holy Spirit. The Virgin does not add up to the female part of the Trinity but Sophia, The Great Wisdom, does. Not all Byzantines know this though. You would be hard pressed to find one who knows as much History as where, when, and how of the path. Not even I know that much, only a little, and that is from doing some very hard digging (mostly offline).

[LordHelmet]

yea, it's so much easier to dig around online.

[Cyzarine]

yea, it's so much easier to dig around online.

Yeah, but sometimes the information you get from online sources is incorrect. you have to be very careful about what you read online and from what source it is. Offline, through research (albit very hard and long research) you can find what you seek. It may not be the easiest road to your answer but it will be the road with few mistakes. That is how I do much of my research.