Voodoo/Aztec Beliefs

[Myst]

Ok, mato and I's conversation on this subject got me thinking.

Who else is into Voodoo and Aztec beliefs - myth, practices, whatever? I've seen a little bit on Voodoo before but that's it. If you chose those systems, why?

[WolfWoman]

Hey, something I know alot about!!! Before I decided on the Pagan path I studied/practiced Vodou for several years. The problem I had with it was that 'Americanized' voodoo has been bastardized from the original African vodoun and was 'blended' so to speak with Catholicism by the slaves brought here. I didn't follow too much of the 'traditional' African voudoun, it didn't call to me. And then there's Haitian vodou, which is fairly similar to the 'Southern' voudou. I'll stick to Southern which is actually what I studied/practiced. There are the Houngans (priests) and the Mambos (priestesses). The black magic priests or sorcerers were called Bocors (sp?). There's loads of info floating into my head right now, what specifically are you trying to find out, maybe that will help me give you answers?

btw, I gave it up because Paganism was calling me, and there were issues I was having with it being so rooted or meshed with Catholicism (no disrespect to Catholics, I grew up one)

[Myst]

Cool.

I've read a bit about it but it really doesn't call to me. I was just wondering if there were a lot of practitioners around here and I'm just wierd.

[mato]

only one former pratitioner of voudu here?

[Rick]

I think MagicBabs is a voodoo-er... voodoo-ee?... voodoo-ite?...

[mato]

some say voudon...

[Myst]

Ok maybe I'm not that strange

:)

[Rick]

I read a book called Aztec... even though it's a work of fiction, it's very well researched, & the rites described therein sound like they're probably pretty authentic... check your public library...

[mato]

Originally posted by Rick
I read a book called Aztec... even though it's a work of fiction, it's very well researched, & the rites described therein sound like they're probably pretty authentic... check your public library...

For the old style sure, but there is nothing really reliable on the 'new' (actually ancient) style.

[Myst]

Old? New? Ancient? Huh?

[Rick]

Originally posted by Myst
Old? New? Ancient? Huh?
Ya know, you took the words right outta my mouth... :T

[Lavender]

As a joke gift, I was given a "Do it yourself Voodoo kit". At first, I thought it was funny. It contained a little cloth doll, about 2" tall, a small pack of pins & a tiny book for the how to. As I read the book, I was starting to get worried. It gave just enough info to cause someone real harm but not enough for the person performing the magic to realize that this is serious stuff they're messing with.

For example, it said to get even with someone, you will need to get hold of something personal, preferably something with their DNA on it...like a piece of hair or nail clippings. It goes further to give the reader some ideas on the types of curses & spells to use. A lot of it is really just mischief but still bad stuff.

I'm just imagining bossess all over the country squirming at their desks, wondering what's happening to them. Or constantly tripping & falling into puddles. :rolleyes:

[Myst]

Yes I've seen that too.

All one can do is hope that most people don't have the ability to focus their intent enough to do anything with those things.

[WolfWoman]

I got one of those little voodoo 'kits' once several years ago. Nifty little gift, but I wouldn't use it, it just took up space on a shelf. I didn't get into any of that get even stuff either, the laws of karma apply to voodoo as well. Most voudons make their own little dolls etc., but alot of the staples are similar. I enjoyed it while I was learning and then it just started to pass on...

[mato]

Originally posted by Myst
Old? New? Ancient? Huh?

You have heard of flower power right? Well way before the sixties there was another flower power movement and a 'guru', his goal was to stop the sacrifices while they were still contained in the temple walls. He drew from older traditions/myths which stated that the only fitting sacrifice to the gods were flowers. He also linked flowers to pleasure and was known for his gambling.
After the fall of the empire the priests that survived tried to escape to the remote parts of their former empire, most were caught and brutally murdered however some slipped through the cracks and mingled with spanish witches while others got away to the outskirts of their empire. The religion/spirituality then was forced to change as the sacrifices werent acceptible in a catholic community. Guadalupe also changed alot in a few years. Priests changed most of their rituals in an attempt to please the Goddess in disguese (who brought back flower power five hundred years before the sixties). All these factors helped the surviving religious leaders of the people to 'rediscover' their roots. Much of the knowledge was lost and that is a shame but the tradition surived in a form not likely to loose it's identity as it changed to suit the needs of the people.
In otherwords the shaman was reformed from the destruction of his replacements. The healer, warrior, ruler (ceremonial mainly), priest, and counsoler became the shaman (as there wasnt enough of a population left for these roles to be filled by individuals). Thus old/new/ancient sorry I am a bit confusing but I make perfect sense to myself :p

[Myst]

I see.

So sacrifices are involved?

What about voodoo?

What are the tenets or principles of either?

[WolfWoman]

Are you asking about sacrifices in voodoo??? There are instances where there are sacrifices - but I never participated in any of that. From what I've learned there are sacrifices of chickens, lambs, goats and then there is a feast afterwards. It's mostly for the blood, but nothing goes to waste. Personally, I don't think I could participate in an activity that entails killing anything even if we're eating it afterwards...

There's alot of sacrificial activity in Haiti. And I believe alot of it is done by the Bocors (priests of the black arts)... not very nice people to cross if they're powerful.

[Myst]

Voodoo and aztec beliefs, yup.

I'm just wondering what the basic tenets, beliefs, principles, and practices of each might be. For instance, are there any deities involved, and if so what pantheon? What are they focused on (like, are they several that rule over different parts of life from the harvest to the sea to death like in Greek myth)?

Is there a basic tenet or rule (like the Rede)?

What kind of rituals are performed (like wiccanings, handfastings, funerals,etc.)?

When are spells performed; by whom; and for what purpose?

[WolfWoman]

Okay, here's what I know. Yes there are deities, as for Pantheon, well, since I followed southern voodoo, there's a Catholic undertone to alot of it. The slaves hid their deities in the figures of Catholic saints, etc. so they wouldn't be found out (they pretended to be converted Catholics).

There are deities (also called Loa) for EVERYTHING....

1) Erzulie - Goddess of Love, likes offerings of perfume, makeup, champagne.
2) Baron Samedi - God of death, very mischevious, likes offerings of cigars and rum... dangerous to play around with.
3) Papa Legba - God of the crossroads also likes cigars.

There are many, many others. I'm in the process of moving so all my books are packed when I get settled into my new place I can give you more info if you need it.

There are also traditional weddings, funerals, etc. I've never been to a funeral, but a wedding I have. It's similar to the traditional African wedding performed by a priest. I guess you can say it's really just a wedding.

As far as basic tenets, I don't know of any. The problem is that vodouns were driven so far underground that alot of the information varies. And it was so hard to find anyone to pray with!!!! I know that vodouns believe in 'karma', but sometimes the bocors don't care much about that. Most vodouns are Catholics as well, which was very confusing for me, because they believe in 'magick'; they do rituals for harvests, money, love, and even to rid themselves of someone... (not too smart, but hey). Rituals can be done by Hougans (high priests) or Mambos (high priests), but you can do for yourself if you know what you're doing.

I have done a few minor spells for myself, nothing too outrageous since I was actually a little fearful of screwing it up and letting something in that I shouldn't have. That in itself was telling me that it wasn't for me, I shouldn't be afraid if I wasn't harming anyone.

[Myst]

Thanks! Ok, great.

What were you afraid of "letting in"?

Are there demons? Nasty spirits? Enemies? Do they work with faeries, dragons, and the like? What about the afterlife or underworld?

[WolfWoman]

Well, there are nasty spirits, demons, and even enemies (I don't think I have any of those, but I could be wrong). I was more afraid of the nasty spirits... I seem to attract the ones that want to drain me like an Eveready battery... It just made me really uneasy when I had to open myself up to let a specific Loa in. Basically what happens is that you put yourself into a trancelike state (not really comfortable with that, I still even have trouble meditating on a regular basis) and call out to the specific Loa you need help from. They do what's called 'mounting', I guess you could call it a type of 'possession' (not comfortable with that either), and then you either get the answers you need or they do the work for you. Unfortunately, if you're that deep into trance, you won't remember what happened... you might be dancing around seductively (like when you're mounted by Erzulie)... you might start smoking cigars and drinking rum when the Baron Samedi makes an appearance. The thing is, if you don't properly honor and/or thank these Loa, they can sometimes get a little 'insulted' and they'll 'punish' you. I had a BIG problem with that.

As far as I know, there isn't any work with faeries or dragons, etc. It seems that most of the Loa have more 'human' attributes as opposed to anything else.

[Myst]

Ok, thanks!

<--learning something new

I know how you feel about the trancelike state and invoking things into you. I've been told I'm a channeler recently - eeeeek!

[mato]

Yes in voodoo sacrifices are involved but it is nothing that isnt done normally, however in my craft no animal sacrifices are done as this is banned by a number of philosophies (burned on the arival of the spanish) and divine actions which survived in myth. The only thing that graces my alter are flowers, there is no blood letting or anything like that.

No codes that I know of but if I were part of a group I wouldnt be able to say any way as most of it is supposed to be a secret. I do however follow the general rule of karma and all that as a universal thing. Basic tenents are simple, help others and help yourself. It is basiclly witchcraft before the rede, if that help involves cursing an abusive husband so be it. In Aztec belief yes their are a lot of Gods and Goddesses some are diverse, one goddess rules over fire the sun salt and the sea. Though they are not considered to 'rule' over parts of life, there is a single corn god who is subject to the rain god and the wind god who fight for a good harvest but that is not ceremonial as rain and wind very from year to year and one windy day could ruin a whole harvest. The rain god is supposed to have the wind god in a box.

Rituals are done as needed however most are left up to the church to do in public and the witch to do in private (but in voodoo they are done both in public as it is nothing that any one would dare object too). Spells are done as needed and then by anyone who knows how, but generally left to the witch to handle. Voodoo spells are done when ever they are needed, for any purpose really, from car repair to fertility... What ever is needed is done when it is needed, by who ever can do it.

Fearies and dragons do exist as a kind of side line thing, there are troops of 'fearies' that come into town every year on the day of the dead, they are thought to be spirits of the hills but some say they are the dead children who dont know were to go. So the Fearies are just spirits of the land and/or the lost dead. Dragons are sometimes called gods, Chac a serpant of the sky I consider to be the closest thing to a 'dragon' there is in my system. He is a giant sky serpant that comands four 'trolls' that despense water clouds and lightning from their place in the west. There is also a serpant that goes with ex-chel who holds all the rain in its stomach and lets it loose on her order. Dragons generally exist as rain serpants in my pantheon.

There are demons that exist seeking to cause chaos throughout the world, they caused the fourth world to be drowned by making the sun goddess cry killing all. These demons are generally considered to work on their own however they do occasionally work with the gods to get something done like force the feathered serpent (who revived man kind with his own blood) from his throne by making him believe that he had a human destiny. Their anticedents are good people and the animals, it is held that the only person that can save you from the demons is yourself, no winged person can do it for you, but there are those that can be asked to step in but not to do the work for you, those are the ancestors, and those that died a violent or painfull death. They are considered to be out of hell enjoying the thirteen heavens. Nasty spirits exist every were. The underworld is one of nine that are considered to be hells, but I dont think of them as such, they are just the underworlds nothing bad about them. Beyond that the after life is up to the soul, if they want to reincarnate after going through the underworld they can, but they have to go through it again when they get done with their next life. It is kind of a purification thing, to make sure that the soul doesnt carry something it isnt supposed to over, in that time the body should decompose and the soul has nothing to inhabbit should he or she consider coming back and starting over. The voodoo belief is just that the soul is released after some time trapped in the body (depending, if they werent burried properly they can be stuck on earth until they are or until their body desintigrates) when they are released they tend to help those left behind or become one of the possessing entities that has a little fun, their slogan is "I am already dead, You cant hurt me any more!" what is considered to be a rebellious saying, as they act in ways that would never be tolorated otherwise.

[kittiepoetrygod]

It sounds alot like Santeria. I think thats how you spell it ... its a religion the developped in the Carribbean when the slaves where brought over, which uses the Catholic symbolism for saints as representative of the orishas, i think is the term. One of the guys you described, Papa Legba, rings a bell ... are rum and steel also sacred to him?

[WolfWoman]

Yes Santeria and Voodoo are very similar, really the differences are where they're practiced. Santeria is predominantly with Hispanic cultures with African undertones (I have an aunt who's a Santera). It did originate with the African slaves, but Santeria is practiced ALOT in the Carribean, ie., Puerto Rico. There's also another 'division' which is called Candomble (don't know anything about that one, but I do know they're all similar). Rum and steel are in fact offerings usually given to Papa Legba. I don't know as much about Santeria, there's actually some aspects of it that I'm not comfortable with. Hard to explain why, tho, it just didn't feel right to me, even tho it's in my family.

[Flar's Freyja]

bump

[jareth]

Hi, don't know if this is still open, but I'm a practicing vodouisant (and training to one day be a Mambo - hopefully!). I've just joined and i had to post :).