Winnowing Wicca from Paganism

[cinnamon]

This is something I've always been a little fuzzy on and I'm hoping y'all can give clarification.

Where does Paganism end and Wicca begin? For example, is casting a circle a purely Wiccan thing? What about the general formula for spellwork and ritual? Are Mabon, Imbolic, Lugnasah (I'm sure I've butchered the spelling of that one!), etc Wiccan holidays? (I understand that they came from another source, but are they *generally* celebrated by Eclectic Pagans who don't follow a particular path?)

So much of what I read is Wiccan based, I can't figure what's general Wiccan belief and general Eclectic Pagan belief (by Eclectic Pagan, I mean Pagans who follow a basic god/dess path.).

Sorry if this is coming out jumbled, I'm trying not to ramble.

[RainInanna]

Well, Pagan generally refers to spirituality that is "non Christian, Judaic, or Islamic". Pagan doesn't refer to specific beliefs and practices, but is an umbrella term encompassing many spiritualities, each with their own beliefs and practices, including Wicca, Druidry, Shamanism, Kemeticism, Hellenism, etc.

People use the term Pagan sometimes when they don't adhere to a specific Pagan religion such as Wicca or Druidry. I wouldn't say all Pagans follow a basic god/dess path even - some are polytheistic, some are pantheistic, some are duotheistic, some are agnostic, etc. In fact, some Pagans do in fact draw from Christian and Judaic beliefs!

Really everyone has their own opinion on what Paganism and Wicca means. It is up to you to determine this for yourself through research and contemplation. I am happy to give you my thoughts on this, and I am sure many others will here as well. I hope we help you find your way :)

Circle casting and sabbats are Wiccan.

[Nemesis Descending]

Yeah, you've pretty much summed up the state of things these days. Once there were "standards" upon which traditions were established. But this became undermined in the early 1980s, and few older traditions remain. In the 80s authors like Scott Cunningham injected the philosophy of self-styled systems, and a "do whatever feels right" approach. This concept was then fostered by most authors in the following decade and now into our current era.

I've often likened this to biology and the idea of cells. When cells function traditionally then the body is healthy. But when individual cells break away from their traditional roles, and go off on their own, then the body has cancer or other types of illness. As a practitioner of earth religion I can't help but take a long look at the analogy.

So yes, it is difficult to unravel what you suggest. Perhaps some of the elders here on MW can jump in and show you Paganism and Wicca with a re-boot. ;)

[Alora]

Wicca is a very specific religion and Paganism is broad and covers many religions and paths. Ex. The Abrahamic umbrella is also a group of religions.

If you had an Abrahamic group get together you might have a Methodist, Catholic, Jew, Muslim, and a Rastafarian. They are all very different!

In a Pagan group you might have a Wiccan, Celtic-Rocon, Heathen, Hindu, Goddess Worshipper, and a Native American Shaman.

You mentioned some holidays. They are celebrated by Wiccans, Celtic Recons, and others following European Agricultural holidays. Also, Pagans are all so very individual that some may call themselves Wiccan for example but not celebrate the holidays.

I hope this helps. Any more questions?

[cinnamon]

In the 80s authors like Scott Cunningham injected the philosophy of self-styled systems, and a "do whatever feels right" approach. This concept was then fostered by most authors in the following decade and now into our current era.

This clears things up a bit. Thanks, I feel... still a little lost but knowing it's sometimes a jumble to others makes me feel better about it. :hahugh:

People use the term Pagan sometimes when they don't adhere to a specific Pagan religion such as Wicca or Druidry. I wouldn't say all Pagans follow a basic god/dess path even - some are polytheistic, some are pantheistic, some are duotheistic, some are agnostic, etc.

I wasn't meaning pagan in the all encompassing meaning but Pagan in the eclectic sense - as it's used by people who don't follow a particular path but stil worship gods of various pantheons (I know use of the word in that context is sometimes debated, but I couldn't think of a more appropriate word).

I know the differences in terms of definition but it seems that's all I know (sorry if I wasn't clear on that point). In terms of application and the physical way we address the gods, other metaphysical beings, and nature, the line seems to blur as to what is and isn't solely (or at least, started out solely as) Wiccan beliefs and practices.

[Lunacie]

The lines are blurred, you're not imagining it. Almost everything that makes Wicca a specific religion can be found in other Pagan paths, but with Wicca it's combined in a uniquie, specific way.

[RainInanna]

Hm, I was trying to look at it from what is Pagan and not Wiccan, rather than what is Wiccan (AND therefore Pagan too). I don't think anyone could give a definition or list on what practices are specifically Wiccan that everyone would agree with. There are some interesting old threads on practices and beliefs that define Wicca around here, that you might find interesting.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=11834
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=54088

[cinnamon]

There are some interesting old threads on practices and beliefs that define Wicca around here, that you might find interesting.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=11834
http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=54088

Excellent! Thank you so much, there's all sorts of interesting info in them to go over.

[Ben Gruagach]

Since Wicca is at its core an eclectic religion (yes -- Gerald Gardner took things from lots of sources and combined them to make the Wicca he taught) and very few if any of the ideas or practices actually originated with Wicca, then no matter what you look at in Wicca you will find it also exists in other older non-Wiccan sources.

I find the disdain towards open eclecticism to be quite funny since Gardner's Wicca is nothing if not eclectic. It's fine and dandy to say that some specific set of teachings are now the official dogma of a specific Wiccan tradition, but let's remember where it came from, people!

[Kudzu]

Where does Paganism end and Wicca begin?

My definition of Wicca is Traditional, and a bit more exclusive than others. I believe that Wicca is an Initiatory, oathbound, Mystery Tradition, and that one becomes Wiccan by joining a lineaged Coven. As a result, those who have not yet been Initiated can know precious little about the inner workings of the religion. A mountain of information abounds written by those who either aren't sharing all, or who were never Initiated in the first place. Even the best of it is the tip of the iceburg.

Is casting a circle a purely Wiccan thing?

Nope. It was around long before Wicca, especially in some form in Ceremonial Magic.

What about the general formula for spellwork and ritual?

All the public information on spellwork and rituals may not be much like the actual spellwork and rituals as practiced by Initiated Wiccans from Gardner's time.

Are Mabon, Imbolic, Lugnasah (I'm sure I've butchered the spelling of that one!), etc Wiccan holidays? (I understand that they came from another source, but are they *generally* celebrated by Eclectic Pagans who don't follow a particular path?)

They are not only Wiccan holidays! They are celebrated by many Eclectic Pagans!

[Lunacie]

My definition of Wicca is Traditional, and a bit more exclusive than others. I believe that Wicca is an Initiatory, oathbound, Mystery Tradition, and that one becomes Wiccan by joining a lineaged Coven. As a result, those who have not yet been Initiated can know precious little about the inner workings of the religion. A mountain of information abounds written by those who either aren't sharing all, or who were never Initiated in the first place. Even the best of it is the tip of the iceburg.



That is one version of Wicca. There are many versions and most are Wiccan as well, but not quite all of them. ;)