Our Founding Fathers...

[Adam Of Avalon]

I attended a lecture given by the fabulous Shirley MacLaine about her New Age adventures. Having read her book, "The Camino" I kinda knew where she was coming from.

In this lecture she projected the backside of a giant dollar bill onto a screen and pointed out all of the symbolism that served as evidence that the founding fathers were, in fact, Deists. Deists say that God made the world and then left it alone to its own devices. Because this world had certain rules that couldn't be broken (mainly physics), reason and logic were the way to a better life. Anyone who was anyone in Franklin and Adams' day was a Deist. This is why it can be classified as more of a flash in the pan than a real religion. It was really just a backlash to the Puritan majority.

She also pointed out that the founding fathers never intended income tax; citing Alexander Hamilton's efforts to revive the economy during the Washington administration.

Anyway, the point is that the U.S. was not always Christian. In fact, during its conception, its leaders did not believe in the Christ. Yeah Shirley!

[Danustouch]

I was fortunate enough to attend college in Quincy Mass, where the homestead of John and John Quincy Adams is. I've also gone to the church, that was their Church. In fact, Many of the founding fathers attended Universalist Churches. I believe George Washington, himself, was a Universalist. I will check this out.

I have heard much on the point that our founding fathers did not believe in Income Tax. My husband is very opposed to the income tax, himself, though. And there does seem to be a lot of evidence that it was not in the "original" plan.

Didn't the Income Tax only start somewhere in the early 1900's?

[Danustouch]

This is a link to an article with some Quotes pertaining to religion and Christianity, by our founding fathers. Quite surprising. However..here is a disclaimer ....the site is quite obviosly somewhat biased. I'm not saying that what they say is not true, however, it is completely conceivable that they would chose quotes to support their stance, and possibly leave out other quotes which would not. As I said, I'm not saying it's not possible that the founding fathers were deists, I'm simply saying that this site is probably not the MOST unbiased source for this information:) I'm still looking for other articles pertaining to this issue.

http://www.postfun.com/pfp/worbois.html

[Danustouch]

Another article, this one from a specifically Pagan perspective, regarding the religious beliefs of our founding fathers.

A reminder, let's keep this thread friendly, and be very aware that these subjects can be very inflammatory.

This is a very interesting topic to discuss, but I for one, in no way believe it diminishes the validity of the Christian path :) It simply may negate certain "accepted" historical myths which have been passed down throughout history.

However, let us also remember, that the quotes these articles have presented us with, are not the full extent of any of these founding fathers works. One of these articles even quite clearly said, that in some other correspondences by the quoted founding fathers, there were some PRO christian quotes. So...I suppose this is one of Histories Mysteries, eh? Unfortunately, all we have are these peoples writings. They are not here today to answer our questions. So any debate we could have here, is complete supposition.

Anyway..without further adieu....the other article, with a Pagan bend

http://realmagick.com/articles/17/17.html

[Danustouch]

Ahhhh..here we are, an excerpt from a brief biography of John Quincy Adams, lists his place of burial, which, having been there, I also know served as their family house of worship:

Death. On Feb. 21, 1848, he suffered a stroke at his House desk. Too ill to be moved from the building, he was carried to the Speaker's room. He died there two days later. Adams was buried in the churchyard of the First Unitarian Church in Quincy, Massachusetts. His wife died on May 15, 1852, and was buried at his side. Their remains were later moved to the church crypt.

[Danustouch]

Also, I did a brief search on Google.com, for the burial site of George Washington, out of curiosity.

The page I found, lists all of the "Known" burial places of most political figures throughout history. George Washington, is buried in Virginia, amongst relatives, and was an Episcopalian. However, he was also a member of the Freemasons:) Which, may explain some of the "deist" statements. Especially if he were writing to, or addressing fellow freemasons:)

[Theres]

cool! i bookmarked both of those sites. here's a few more quotes from men wiser than those who have inherited their real-estate...

"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty Gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg."
- Thomas Jefferson

"The Bible is not my book, and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma." - Abraham Lincoln

"I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."
- Thomas Jefferson

"I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My mind is my own church." - Thomas Paine

"The United States is in no sense founded upon the Christian doctrine." - George Washington

these are from the book 'Salvation For Sale' by Gerard Thomas Straub.

pretty cool guys, those founding fathers!

[seawitch]

greenman, those are great quotes! did you get them from a web site? or a book? my honey wants to know

[seawitch]

oops:o should have been paying attention