Pre-K expulsion triple that of K-12 COMBINED

[pawnman]

Here's one dad's story, interspersed with some of the research.

http://www.salon.com/mwt/feature/2005/05/28/expulsion/

[RoseKitten]

Wow... the part that got me though, was at the end "I don't want to spend all summer with him! He's difficult! He's a difficult child! He wants too much from me. And you're going to go crazy if he's around all the time. Our marriage always suffers when he's home!"
Kids are difficult, I thought that was a pretty well known fact. People wonder why children to day are so "rude" and "horrible" well, it's because parents don't want to/don't have time to spend with their children. It's sad, and a little sickening. *sigh* If you don't have time for a child, time to love and care for them, then just don't have a child... please.

[pawnman]

Wow... the part that got me though, was at the end
Kids are difficult, I thought that was a pretty well known fact. People wonder why children to day are so "rude" and "horrible" well, it's because parents don't want to/don't have time to spend with their children. It's sad, and a little sickening. *sigh* If you don't have time for a child, time to love and care for them, then just don't have a child... please.

Of course, it's hard to say if you have time until you have one. For parents like this, it comes down to childcare or not working...no working means no house, no food, and no clothes.

I know I've had my own days when I just look at Mrs. Pawnman and I say "I've had enough, I can't take anymore of her crying today". Everyone has their limits of patience. I don't think it makes you a bad parent to want some of your own life back once in a while.

[RoseKitten]

Of course, it's hard to say if you have time until you have one. For parents like this, it comes down to childcare or not working...no working means no house, no food, and no clothes.

I know I've had my own days when I just look at Mrs. Pawnman and I say "I've had enough, I can't take anymore of her crying today". Everyone has their limits of patience. I don't think it makes you a bad parent to want some of your own life back once in a while.


Everyonce and a while I understand, and I understand that it's hard to know if you have time. However, it seems to me that these people did not have a lot of money to begin with, and I think it mentioned that they work from home (that's what I interpreted anyways). Well, having a baby running around is obviously going to be problematic if you are trying to get work done.

[pawnman]

Everyonce and a while I understand, and I understand that it's hard to know if you have time. However, it seems to me that these people did not have a lot of money to begin with, and I think it mentioned that they work from home (that's what I interpreted anyways). Well, having a baby running around is obviously going to be problematic if you are trying to get work done.

Which is why they enrolled him in Pre-K.

[RoseKitten]

Which is why they enrolled him in Pre-K.

Which, as they said, is why they had to work so hard. Also, it's one thing to put your child in there a couple days a week, but to rely on Pre-K so you don't have to spend an entire summer with him? Or the parents who do it 'cause they want someone else raising their child 'caues "it's just so hard!" (that's something I hear a lot with some of the parents I know) is just wrong.

[pawnman]

Which, as they said, is why they had to work so hard. Also, it's one thing to put your child in there a couple days a week, but to rely on Pre-K so you don't have to spend an entire summer with him? Or the parents who do it 'cause they want someone else raising their child 'caues "it's just so hard!" (that's something I hear a lot with some of the parents I know) is just wrong.

He was going M-F, 5 hours a day. Doesn't seem like overly much to me, but I don't know what the schedules are like. They live in NY, so there's probably some peer pressure too. He discusses that as well. If you're kids don't get into the right Pre-K, they won't get into the right elementary, then the right high school, and they won't go to Harvard or Yale. Sounds ludicrious, I know, but I've heard that's how some parents view it in Manhattan.

[ValD]

I onlyy got as far as reading that a kindergarden had expelled a two-year old for biting and was too astonished to read any further. A kindergarden teacher who can't deal with a biting toddler?? Sheesh!
Toddlers do bite - it's a fact of life. They have to be taught that it's not good to bite, and there are various ways of doing this. Anybody with child-care training and experience - or even just somebody with average intelliegence and empathy - can think of ways and means.
Seems to me that their kid is better off out of that place, if the staff can't cope with common toddler behaviour.
But I don't have much sympathy for the parents, who appear to be horrified at the thought of having their kid at home all day. Yes, kids are a bind; they drain your energy and time and make you feel like a baby-minding zombie. But it doesn't last forever.

[SSanf]

Good grief!

I don't think a child that young should be expelled fron pre-school because I don't think they should BE in pre-school! They should bve home with their MOTHERS!!!

And, here is a real thought. When the kid bit his mother, why didn't they drop his drawers and give his little fanny a sharp smack? THEN he would have a real reason not to bite. His fanny would smart as much as the bite hurt his mother. Now, that is a reason for him not to do it that he would understand and agree with. Instead, they gave him tons of personal attention which is probably what he wanted from his sef-absorbed parents in the first place.

People have no sense any more.

[phoenixblayze]

yikes, i know kids bite...i did only once. but the way that my mom fixed the problem would have gotten her in trouble now a days........i remember biting my little brother, and my mom was so furious that she bit me.....hard. i started to cry, and my mom asked me if that hurt....or course i was like "yeeeessssss" and then she told me that if i bit anyone again, she would bite me again.....and it worked.........

[Lunacie]

It sounds like the dad in that story has ADHD and so does his son. It's certainly too early to get a diagnosis and way too soon to start him on meds, but there are other things that can be done to help both of them cope with "poor impluse control". A change in diet, certain supplements, watching for those specific moments that are most likely to push him over the edge in loss of control and intervention to prevent that, and other coping tips. Sometimes a structured environment helps, sometimes it doesn't. Many areas have support groups for for people who have ADD/ADHD or have family members who do. In Kansas the support group is sponsored through Kansas Children's Service League. I'm very disappointed that the "experienced teacher" at the pre-K didn't suggest any of these things.

[Nightmelody]

I've been a preschool teacher in a private day care/preschool for many years. We have discontinued care for a handful of children during my years there. we give lots of warning, expectations, daily parent teacher contact, we will help get kids tested through the county.

We have discontinued care for a child we thought was mentally ill or had other severe behavioral issues. The child was violent, angry, with raging tantrums more than once a day, and large for his size. He knocked down one of our sturdy twenty something teachers on the play ground sidewalk--what if he knocked down one of our sixty something teachers and broke a hip or wrist? He injured other children on a regular basis, too.

We made arrangements for the child to be tested, the father did nothing, in fact, when this child was angry about his older brother, dad would tell the kid to 'go take him out,' which meant tackle and hit.

One adult had to shadow this child at all times--that left 20 three and four year olds in the care of basically one teacher. State regs are 10/1 child/adult. we could not afford to hire a teacher just for this child.

Another child was in a 4 yr old group, but functioning not well. We got his parents to test him( the county tests children for free), he was at 18months cognitive development and speech. He needed special intervention and care, which we could not provide, having neither the training or the staff. He is now in a special ed preschool getting the care he needs.

We have 'kicked out' twenty kids in the past two years because the parents made no arraqngements to pay behind bills. We have to make pay roll like any other business, we are not state funded or federally funded, like headstart.

[pawnman]

So, if I may gently nudge the topic:

What about the rest of the kids who are getting tossed? TRIPLE the expulsion rate of K-12 COMBINED, with boys twice as likely to get expelled. Is this a "teacher's hate boys" matter? Or a "kids are starting school too early" one? Or is it like the father in the article thinks...pre-schools simply have such high demand that they can afford to jettison any kid with a problem, unlike regular schools where attendance is mandatory?

[RoseKitten]

So, if I may gently nudge the topic:

What about the rest of the kids who are getting tossed? TRIPLE the expulsion rate of K-12 COMBINED, with boys twice as likely to get expelled. Is this a "teacher's hate boys" matter? Or a "kids are starting school too early" one? Or is it like the father in the article thinks...pre-schools simply have such high demand that they can afford to jettison any kid with a problem, unlike regular schools where attendance is mandatory?

I think it has mostly to do with the fact that pre-k schools *can* do it. Seriously, why stress out your teacher when some other person is willing to pay those hundreds of dollars a month?

Edited to add: Also, for a pre-k school to expel makes them look like a "good" school: ie, difficult to stay in, so it must be top notch. However, in k-12 it looks really bad for a school to have a lot of expulsions. Makes them look like they aren't doing their job or something. *shrugs* That's my take on it anyways.

[Lunacie]

So, if I may gently nudge the topic:

What about the rest of the kids who are getting tossed? TRIPLE the expulsion rate of K-12 COMBINED, with boys twice as likely to get expelled. Is this a "teacher's hate boys" matter? Or a "kids are starting school too early" one? Or is it like the father in the article thinks...pre-schools simply have such high demand that they can afford to jettison any kid with a problem, unlike regular schools where attendance is mandatory?

All we have is one overstressed parent's word for this particular statistic. I don't even know whether it's true that three times as many pre-K children get the boot as kids in grades K through 12. I didn't see any claim that most of these pre-K kids who are getting booted are boys, where do you get that?

If these stats are accurate, then one reason may be that older kids are getting a diagnosis and treatment (pills AND skills) and causing less disruption in school. And as this father's story mentions, most pre-schools are privately run and funded and don't have the money to pay for getting these kids special attention the way K-12 public schools do. Those schools often have special ed classes where these problem kids are shunted off too instead of getting the boot.


Edited for typo - as usual :geez:

[pawnman]

Here's the study he references in his article:

http://www.ffcd.org/PDFs/NationalPreKExpulsionPaper03.02_new.pdf

It was conducted by the Yale University Child Study Center.

Expulsion is the most severe disciplinary sanction that an educational program can impose. Results are
reported from a national study of 3,898 prekindergarten classrooms (81.0% response rate), representing all of
the nation’s 52 state-funded prekindergarten systems currently operating across 40 states. Weighted results
indicated that 10.4% of prekindergarten teachers reported expelling at least one preschooler in the past 12
months, of which 19.9% expelled more than one. Nationally, 6.67 preschoolers were expelled per 1,000
enrolled. Although this rate for state-subsidized prekindergarten is lower than what has been previously
reported for child care programs, the prekindergarten expulsion rate is 3.2 times the rate for K-12 students.
Rates are reported for each of the states and state prekindergarten systems represented. Significant cross state
variability in expulsion rates was found, possibly due in part to differences in how state prekindergarten
systems are structured. Rates were highest for older preschoolers and African-Americans, and boys were over
4½ times more likely to be expelled than were girls. Expulsion rates were lowest in classrooms in public
schools and Head Start and highest in faith-affiliated centers and for-profit child care. The likelihood of
expulsion decreases significantly with access to classroom-based mental health consultation.

[Lunacie]

Here's the study he references in his article:

http://www.ffcd.org/PDFs/NationalPreKExpulsionPaper03.02_new.pdf

It was conducted by the Yale University Child Study Center.

Hmmm, I clicked on his link for the Yale University Child Study Center and I didn't see anything like that. It doesn't change what I posted in my second paragraph as possible reasons for the discrepitancy. One reason boys are more likely to be harder to deal with than girls is that boys more often have the hyperactive form of ADD, while girls are more likely to have the daydream-ey kind of ADD.

[pawnman]

Hmmm, I clicked on his link for the Yale University Child Study Center and I didn't see anything like that. It doesn't change what I posted in my second paragraph as possible reasons for the discrepitancy. One reason boys are more likely to be harder to deal with than girls is that boys more often have the hyperactive form of ADD, while girls are more likely to have the daydream-ey kind of ADD.

I know. I had to go searching on the internet for it. Kind of weird that CSC's own website didn't have a link to it, huh?

Edit: isn't ADD really impossible to diagnose at this age? I don't know any two-year-olds with good impulse control. ADD seems to be a jump to a "acronym disease" that teachers and drug-companies always want parents to make. I find it hard to believe that so many pre-schoolers have ADD that somehow disappears by kindergarten.

[Lunacie]

I know. I had to go searching on the internet for it. Kind of weird that CSC's own website didn't have a link to it, huh?

Edit: isn't ADD really impossible to diagnose at this age? I don't know any two-year-olds with good impulse control. ADD seems to be a jump to a "acronym disease" that teachers and drug-companies always want parents to make. I find it hard to believe that so many pre-schoolers have ADD that somehow disappears by kindergarten.

Yeah, I thought it was pretty wierd.

As I wrote earlier, it is hard to diagnose kids under 6 or 7 because most kids behave the same way, it only becomes a problem when they're expected to sit quietly for part of the day and pay attention - as in "focus". But if it's the same kind of behavior that is troubling in primary and grade school, then perhaps the pre-K programs are trying to be more structured than these kids can handle at that age. Kids are supposed to play, and they learn a lot from playing. They don't really need that much structure, they just need a routine so they know what to expect.

It sounds like you're saying ADD isn't a real diagnosis. I certainly admit that it's been over-diagnosed, but I also know (and research and studies back this up) that there are definate differences in the brain of kids who continue to have these problems disrupt their lives beyond their pre-school years.


Ack, we have a disruption going on here right now, my daughter is yelling at my granddaughter because she isn't listening or isn't hearing what her mother is trying to tell her. My heart is breaking because I used to BE that little girl. Her brain is stuck in one thought pattern and it can't break free and understand something different. **le sigh**

Yes, my granddaughter has undiagnosed ADD, just like I do.

[Valnorran]

Parents are going to have to actually raise their own children instead of hiring someone else to do it for them. These kids are too young to be placed out of the home.

[KaidaMidnight]

point 1) the biting. The school shouldn't have to "deal" with it, that is the parents job. Might sound cruel, but BITE HIM BACK. My oldest only bit me once. I bit him back, on the arm (he bit me on the arm). He found out it hurt. He never bit me again. He kept biting my husband though... finally Hubby admited that it might work, bit him back. Our son has not bitten anyone since.
point 2) Them "dealing" with their son all summer? Did I read that part right? About what his wife said? I'm sorry, but why have children if you arn't going to spend time with them? (and yes, he says they both work at home.. my wife and I both work at home. Pawnman, you said earlier that they put their son in pre-K so that they can make money.. he answers this.. If we don't put our kid in preschool, we can't afford to send him to preschool to me, it sounds like they just want to get rid of him. This is another part that got to me and I wanted to scream "Why'd you even have him then?" Even if we hired an inexperienced nanny on the cheap, the kid would still be underfoot most of the day, screechingThe Kid. That's what he called him.. The kid.
Now, about the pre-k schools kicking out more kids then any other grade. It's because they can. There is no law that says they can't, and because they have months and months of waiting lists (people wanting to pay EXTRA) to get into the school, kick out the kids that give them a little bit of trouble. I'm not saying that some kids don't deserve it. If there is nothing else that can be done, the child may not be ready. The little boy was only 2 years old. that is Way too young to be in a pre-k. Daycare maybe, but not in a preschool. That's usually for 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 year olds.
Those are my opinions. Just wanted to make that clear. I'm not saying anyone else's opinions were wrong, just stating what I think. :)

[Lunacie]

Yes! That's what I was trying to say about kids this age being too young for so much structure. Daycare... not preschool.

[RoseKitten]

point 1) the biting. The school shouldn't have to "deal" with it, that is the parents job. Might sound cruel, but BITE HIM BACK. My oldest only bit me once. I bit him back, on the arm (he bit me on the arm). He found out it hurt. He never bit me again. He kept biting my husband though... finally Hubby admited that it might work, bit him back. Our son has not bitten anyone since.
point 2) Them "dealing" with their son all summer? Did I read that part right? About what his wife said? I'm sorry, but why have children if you arn't going to spend time with them? (and yes, he says they both work at home.. . Pawnman, you said earlier that they put their son in pre-K so that they can make money.. he answers this.. to me, it sounds like they just want to get rid of him. This is another part that got to me and I wanted to scream "Why'd you even have him then?" The Kid. That's what he called him.. The kid.
Now, about the pre-k schools kicking out more kids then any other grade. It's because they can. There is no law that says they can't, and because they have months and months of waiting lists (people wanting to pay EXTRA) to get into the school, kick out the kids that give them a little bit of trouble. I'm not saying that some kids don't deserve it. If there is
nothing else that can be done, the child may not be ready. The little boy was only 2 years old. that is Way too young to be in a pre-k. Daycare maybe, but not in a preschool. That's usually for 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 year olds.
Those are my opinions. Just wanted to make that clear. I'm not saying anyone else's opinions were wrong, just stating what I think. :)


Thank-you! That's what I was trying to say, and I don't think it came out that way... :/

[HetHert]

So, if I may gently nudge the topic:

What about the rest of the kids who are getting tossed? TRIPLE the expulsion rate of K-12 COMBINED, with boys twice as likely to get expelled. Is this a "teacher's hate boys" matter? Or a "kids are starting school too early" one? Or is it like the father in the article thinks...pre-schools simply have such high demand that they can afford to jettison any kid with a problem, unlike regular schools where attendance is mandatory?

It could be a number of reasons really. To me it sounds like this is a child that requires more attention than he is getting from his parents. While I sympathize with their plight I have friends that have bit the bullet and opted for Medicaid for their children because the benefits are much better than what you can pay for...how's that for irony. Secondly, from the childs perspective...you can't buy the kind of attention that this child is desperately wanting from a pre-school. You just can't. I'd wager to say that this child is incredibly intelligent and still very much in need of his mother and father to coddle and love him. He wasn't getting the kind of attention he needed from them so he was going to act out in the one place that he had to go to that took him from her for any length of time. While he may have enjoyed himself there he was still missing the integral part of Mothers and Fathers love and nurturing that he desired.
There are children that are independent...they may not necessarily need the coddling, affection, and constant attention that a less independent child requires. But then there are those children that do and it may be that the child of the author of the article may be one of those children that requires more nurturing and attention than a more independent one. I don't know if there are any ways to foster and harbor that independence in children at that early of an age. While the mother may be an artist and art requires time, perhaps waiting a bit longer before diving into working again would have made for a happier child. I realize that doesn't help the mother's plight but I do think that the answer lies with her and the father and the amount of attention they give...whether their willing to make the sacrifices that this child is demanding, I think thats something one has to consider when considering children.
I do feel for the parents. I just find that perhaps its time to bring him back home and really woodshed the discipline problems and seek new ways to make this child understand. And to do that I think he's going to need reassurance that he's loved and not being dumped in someplace where there's too little attention to satisfy his needs.

[Lunacie]

And to do that I think he's going to need reassurance that he's loved and not being dumped in someplace where there's too little attention to satisfy his needs.

I wholeheartedly agree. :thumbsup:

[HetHert]

point 1) the biting. The school shouldn't have to "deal" with it, that is the parents job. Might sound cruel, but BITE HIM BACK. My oldest only bit me once. I bit him back, on the arm (he bit me on the arm). He found out it hurt. He never bit me again. He kept biting my husband though... finally Hubby admited that it might work, bit him back. Our son has not bitten anyone since.
point 2) Them "dealing" with their son all summer? Did I read that part right? About what his wife said? I'm sorry, but why have children if you arn't going to spend time with them? (and yes, he says they both work at home.. . Pawnman, you said earlier that they put their son in pre-K so that they can make money.. he answers this.. to me, it sounds like they just want to get rid of him. This is another part that got to me and I wanted to scream "Why'd you even have him then?" The Kid. That's what he called him.. The kid.
Now, about the pre-k schools kicking out more kids then any other grade. It's because they can. There is no law that says they can't, and because they have months and months of waiting lists (people wanting to pay EXTRA) to get into the school, kick out the kids that give them a little bit of trouble. I'm not saying that some kids don't deserve it. If there is nothing else that can be done, the child may not be ready. The little boy was only 2 years old. that is Way too young to be in a pre-k. Daycare maybe, but not in a preschool. That's usually for 3 1/2 to 4 1/2 year olds.
Those are my opinions. Just wanted to make that clear. I'm not saying anyone else's opinions were wrong, just stating what I think. :)

I totally agree!!! I was wary of putting it so bluntly because I don't have children and therefore only the insight of an outsider but what you said I agree with.

[eldora_avalon]

I had the opposite problem. The way the birthdays worked at my son's daycare, I'm sorry if the kids are less than 4 it's daycare no matter what they call it, he was usually the youngest. This meant he was the shortest, but he is broad across the shoulders. There was an girl about a year older than him in his class. She was beefy, as in even broader at the shoulders, and had 'anger management' issues. She was a biter, but she didn't do it often. She would wait until he was in the playhouse in the gym and follow him in. One day so she wouldn't get caught, she pinched him. That was the day he bit her back. When my hubby went to pick him up, his response was, what did she do to him. I asked one of the girls from his old room and she is the one that told me the girl probably bit him or pinched him. The 'teachers' in his room didn't see it happen.

From the story above, whatever discipline the 'teachers' were using was failing miserabley. The kid was getting attention for his behavior, why would he stop. Time outs work fairly well at that age, especially when there are a bunch of other kids playing and they know they can't. I really wonder what they were doing.

Expulsion rates were lowest in classrooms in public
schools and Head Start and highest in faith-affiliated centers and for-profit child care.

For profit daycares have waiting lists. Not only can they afford to expel kids, they can't always afford to allow disruptive kids to stay and possibly discourage other kids from staying. The above incident is only one of the reasons I pulled my son from that daycare. At the new daycare, actually in the preschool class, I got a report from the teacher that my son grabbed a toy from another kid. I said it was about time. The teacher kind of looked like this :spaceman: until I explained that he had gotten picked on for being small and it was about time he started sticking up for himself.

[Marcasite]

my $0.02
I taught swimming lessons for a looong time. The youngest ones would be just under three years old. Now there are children that can benefit from lessons that age, who genuinely like singing songs together and playing structured games.... and then there's the ones who just aren't ready yet. They won't stay in one place, they won't participate in the games, they refuse to practise the skills and they run around like maniacs pulling off their bathing suits. My advice to the parents was usually take the parent toddler swim course with the kid, or wait a few years. Because there are some children at that age who aren't ready for the structure of preschool etc. And if this kid bit other kids and drew blood on a regular basis, his parents need to do something about it. Would you want another child in preschool biting yours and leaving big bleeding welts every other day? I'm inclined to think these parents need to maybe take a community course on dealing with unruly toddlers. But I think that in many cases, if you have one child that's ruining it for all the others, that will not behave no matter what, that child does not belong in preschool.

[Ceres]

This is strange. I find myself in agreement with Ssanf and Val in one thread....weeeiiird. Not on everything - I dont think whacking the kid for biting is always the answer, but then again I think the biting is likely part of the situation he is in.

I think toddlers belong home with their mothers, or barring that as an option, they belong in a similar adult to child situation to being with your mom. As I have harped on ad nauseum on many occasions, I think institutionalizing kids is just wrong, but ESPECIALLY those under five.

I am not sure why home child care isnt more popular because from the outside, daycare and preschool looks to me like a mchappy processing plant for turning out shiny happy cookie cutter kids.

[Valasha]

You'll have to excuse me if I seem to ramble...gonna try to reply to a couple different side topics here.

My little sister had the biting problem. She bit me hard enough to draw blood...mom bit her once and Im pretty sure she never pulled that again.

As for the ADD...My dad and I are both ADD (non hyperactive just to make sure its understood) Alot of the non hyperactive ADDers are over looked as just lazy day dreamers (constant remarks I got from teachers when I was young, "Shes so smart, she just won't put forth all her effort" By second grade I remember my dad always saying that I had the exact same problems that he had. It just sucked that it wasn't until I was almost in high school before ADD had come to my moms attention. The medication has done wonders for my dad and I. I was never a noisy/moving distraction, but those that were disrupted what little control I had back then. My mom has always said that she never remembered her childhood having the classroom chaos that we had to deal with (then again kids were actually afraid of and respected the adults, unlike today)

As for the Pre-K thing...alot of it comes down to the parents. My sister and I are complete opposites in our mannerisms (Im quiet reserved, takes alot to make me mad, while my sister is loud and made up for all the temper tantrums I never had) Even so my parents never had to deal with us misbehaving in public ever. We never cried and screamed when we didnt get what we wanted. I remember my parents thanking us when we were little, for behaving at outings or family gatherings, while cousins would run rampant. Children are not something you just have and ignore, you actually have to invest time and love in them. Teach them yourselves, instead of tossing them at someone else to fight with.

*sigh* its my ultimate fear that if I have kids (knowing that my Hubby and I have ADD, and that they have a good chance of having it too) that I wont do the excellent job my mom did, and instead screw my kids up. I dont want to be one of those parents that everyone hates to see bring their kids with them, or be like one of my co-workers, and let my kids walk all over me. Its not fair to the kids, or to anyone else.

Okies think my thoughts have wandered enough.

[Chibi-Fallon]

I adored pre-school myself. But I think my pre-school was a-typical of most. The parents were already interconnected, the kids I went to pre-school with I would have hung out with anyways.

And I think that a real problem with parents right now is taking their kid's side over the teachers.
Everyone wants their child to be an angel and yes it's always that other kid's fault if you listen to your little angel but that is someone else's little angel and to their parents it's always that other kids fault too.
When the teacher catches it, punish the kid. Because what they did was wrong. It doesn't matter "who started it" unless I guess you're going for "eye for an eye" type parenting.


And some kids just aren't ready as fast as others are. I really wish that we didn't have all pressure to be the first and the fastest. Obviously the kid in the article a) has some sort of issues (ADD or the like) or b) just wasn't ready for pre-school.

And it makes sense that pre-school explusion would be more. The jump between pre-pre-school and pre-school mindset seems like it would be larger then pre-school to kindergarden.

Either way I'm glad I'm a lesbian. :D No unexpected little brats.

[Nightmelody]

Headstart and public schools have resources that most private preschools do not have. If a child in Headstart seems to have behavioral or developmental issues, the child can receive testing and the headstart can even receive extra money to hire extra aides etc. They can provide things like speach therapy and counseling.

And it is true that a private preschool with a waiting list can drop a child--and most are dropped for failure to pay in my experience--and replace that child right away. If a child id rowdy adn late on payments, they will be the first to go.

The trend in the past decade is for kindergartens to be more academic--more like what many of us experienced in first grade, beginning reading and math. Preschools are expected to ahve kids 'ready'' for kindergarten, with ABC, counting skills, name writing etc. Developmental and play curriculum preschools like where I work are becoming rare, and what the local colleges are teaching in their early childhood programs is often quite different than what is happening in actual preschools, which are far more structured now.

Programs that were play based like Headstart have come under fire becaause their free choice kiddos end up in highly structured kindergartens where they have no choice in activities and are expected to do it, do it now.

I don't think it is a healthy trend. I had a college girl aide who went to a conservative religious college--the preschool she did her student teaching at HAD to be one where it was faith based, and children sat in desks and did paper pencil tasks. Three and four year olds. No finger paint and playdough for these kids.

Seems to me the educational world is pushing the k-4th graders really hard, but then the kids get to middle school and have easy classes and no homework.

Parents really need to look into the programs their kids are going into.

[pawnman]

Yeah, I thought it was pretty wierd.

As I wrote earlier, it is hard to diagnose kids under 6 or 7 because most kids behave the same way, it only becomes a problem when they're expected to sit quietly for part of the day and pay attention - as in "focus". But if it's the same kind of behavior that is troubling in primary and grade school, then perhaps the pre-K programs are trying to be more structured than these kids can handle at that age. Kids are supposed to play, and they learn a lot from playing. They don't really need that much structure, they just need a routine so they know what to expect.

It sounds like you're saying ADD isn't a real diagnosis. I certainly admit that it's been over-diagnosed, but I also know (and research and studies back this up) that there are definate differences in the brain of kids who continue to have these problems disrupt their lives beyond their pre-school years.


Ack, we have a disruption going on here right now, my daughter is yelling at my granddaughter because she isn't listening or isn't hearing what her mother is trying to tell her. My heart is breaking because I used to BE that little girl. Her brain is stuck in one thought pattern and it can't break free and understand something different. **le sigh**

Yes, my granddaughter has undiagnosed ADD, just like I do.

It's not that I think ADD isn't a real diagnosis. It's that I think it's overdiagnosed. "Ooops, billy can't sit still and pay attention, he must have ADD". Come on, teach, Billy's 5 years old, of course he can't sit still and pay attention.

I don't think that ADD is really a good diagnosis until at least 10 years old. Before that, it's impossible to separate the short attention span of a small child from the inability to pay attention brought on by ADD.

[Ceres]

This has to be some kind of record, now I agree with Pawnman in the very same thread as Val and Ssanf. ;) That is true about diagnosing kids with ADD or ADHD because they are too young to sit still and be quiet. Even if some kids of the same age are, that doesnt mean every kid is ready and unfortunately boys are often slower to be ready than girls.

[pawnman]

This has to be some kind of record, now I agree with Pawnman in the very same thread as Val and Ssanf. ;) That is true about diagnosing kids with ADD or ADHD because they are too young to sit still and be quiet. Even if some kids of the same age are, that doesnt mean every kid is ready and unfortunately boys are often slower to be ready than girls.

I think it's probably overdiagnosed later as well...it's easier to say "Oh, Billy has ADD" than to say "Oh, Billy's a little misbehaving brat". One way to tell is the reaction to medication. I was ADHD and I was on ritalin. I still had as much energy, but I was able to sit down, shut up, and pay attention. My cousin was just misbehaved. He went on ritalin and turned into a little zombie.

[Ceres]

I think turning into a zombie is an indicator that the dose is way too high, or perhaps its simply the way some individuals react to Ritalin, which is after all a very powerful drug.

Interestingly, my brother in law tells me that when my nephew was on Ritalin in his preteen years, it was commonly discussed with the parents in the group that the children behaved much better for their fathers. This to me indicates that its behavioral rather than medical.

My own son does this and I realize its because my husband parents differently. I wouldnt argue better because I reach my two other children more effectively than he does, but perhaps many children with ADHD might be better served with different discipline techniques rather than drugs.

[RavensEye]

My cousin was just misbehaved. He went on ritalin and turned into a little zombie. Taht sounds like what my cousin was like when he was on it.

[Lunacie]

Some kids with ADD/ADHD don't do well on Ritalin and there are a whole host of new drugs now that sometimes help more, like Stratera. Different strokes for different folks, eh?

I really don't know which is worse (because they are both so awful) being misdiagnosed as having ADD/ADHD when you don't have it, or not being diagnosed when you do have it. I only know it was such a relief to me finding out last year that there was reason I had struggled all my life, done the best I could only to be told I "wasn't trying" or I could "work harder". Eventually I gave up because my best was never good enough, and everything confused the piss out of me. I simply quit trying because I got tired of failing.

And yet, there were so many things I did do well and even got credit for occasionally but, as most of us do, I put more emphasis on the times when people were disappointed with me or flat out disgusted.

Anyway, back to the kids, there is no "one size fits all" age for determining whether or not a kids has ADD/ADHD just as there is no "one size fits all" medication or dosage that works across the board. And yes, I said it before and I'll repeat it... SKILLS are as important as PILLS and diet.

The thing is, our schools, and apparently our pre-schools as well, are cookie cutter experiences. Every child is expected to do the same things and learn the same things in the same way as every other kid, and it works fairly well for logical kids who are able to switch gears but not for creative kids who hyperfocus and have trouble moving on to the next subject.

[Valasha]

Some kids with ADD/ADHD don't do well on Ritalin and there are a whole host of new drugs now that sometimes help more, like Stratera. Different strokes for different folks, eh?

I really don't know which is worse (because they are both so awful) being misdiagnosed as having ADD/ADHD when you don't have it, or not being diagnosed when you do have it. I only know it was such a relief to me finding out last year that there was reason I had struggled all my life, done the best I could only to be told I "wasn't trying" or I could "work harder". Eventually I gave up because my best was never good enough, and everything confused the piss out of me. I simply quit trying because I got tired of failing.

And yet, there were so many things I did do well and even got credit for occasionally but, as most of us do, I put more emphasis on the times when people were disappointed with me or flat out disgusted.

Anyway, back to the kids, there is no "one size fits all" age for determining whether or not a kids has ADD/ADHD just as there is no "one size fits all" medication or dosage that works across the board. And yes, I said it before and I'll repeat it... SKILLS are as important as PILLS and diet.

The thing is, our schools, and apparently our pre-schools as well, are cookie cutter experiences. Every child is expected to do the same things and learn the same things in the same way as every other kid, and it works fairly well for logical kids who are able to switch gears but not for creative kids who hyperfocus and have trouble moving on to the next subject.

I feel your pain Lunacie, (and I know for sure my dad knows exactly how you feel 100%) Your my new hero :fpraise:

ADD is a learning dissability (atleast in alot of the learning environments we have been forced into) People with ADD can not always conform to learn in the ways that classrooms are run nowdays. I know I had some teachers whos teaching style worked just perfect (they knew how to adjust things to take in consideration how all their students learned, even had one who gave a test to see how each of us actually learn so she knew what she was working with) While other teachers, no matter how much I loved the subject, I would do horribly. (I will add this side note, some ppl with ADD/ADHD do function quite well on their own. how they do it I'd like to know, cause Im still trying to figure it out!)

With that said, it goes back that parents need to get involved to make sure that (at least in this caes) accomidations are made so that their children are given help to put them on an equal ground. While I was never a strait A student, my parents kept involved the whole time. Constantly coming up with different ways (or punishments) to make sure my home work got done (or atleast brought home for that matter), or what not. And that was before we had even heard of ADD.

That even goes back to the original topic (noticed we've kinda meandered off the path a lil) Parents need to be involved. Parents also need to be consistent and stick to their guns when dealing with different behaviors. If a child knows 100% that there will be set in stone consiquences, they are alot less likely to misbehave. Example, my parents never touched us at all in public (or around the extended family), we got "the look" and knew we were in deep shit. Though we were always warned ahead of time of the consiquences, and I knew they'd follow through. I know some kids have hard core learning disabilaties, or mental disabilaties, but I tell ya what, its not usually them I see throwing tantrums in the store.

*scratches her head* Im hoping that all made sense...what I have running through my head always sounds so much better before I actually have to orgainize my thoughts into written words.

[DragonsChest]

yikes, i know kids bite...i did only once. but the way that my mom fixed the problem would have gotten her in trouble now a days........i remember biting my little brother, and my mom was so furious that she bit me.....hard. i started to cry, and my mom asked me if that hurt....or course i was like "yeeeessssss" and then she told me that if i bit anyone again, she would bite me again.....and it worked.........

That's how we cured our children of biting. It works, quite well, thank you!

[WokeUpDead]

If you don't have time for a child, time to love and care for them, then just don't have a child... please.
That's not the way it works. People decide, "Oh babies are cute, give me one" then in about 9 months they realize babies want food and time and they poop a lot and realize that was a dumb idea. Others didn't want a kid in the first place and for some reason go through with the whole pregnancy thing. Some even actually know what they're getting into.

[Valasha]

That's not the way it works. People decide, "Oh babies are cute, give me one" then in about 9 months they realize babies want food and time and they poop a lot and realize that was a dumb idea. Others didn't want a kid in the first place and for some reason go through with the whole pregnancy thing. Some even actually know what they're getting into.

I agree.....Alot of the reason I have put off having kids, is I do understand what it will take...between the chaos in our lives right now, and worried about how I'll do dealing with my ADD...*shakes her head* Its not fair to the kid....

[Willow Rosette]

Oh that is so sad. Maybe if Dad spent more time role modeling the poor child would know how to interact properly. But in the end me saying "if" doesnt solve the problem. Mom and Dad both work to pay the bills and if 1 didnt there wouldnt be enough. So very sad.

[SSanf]

While I understand and agree that ADD is terrible, and I have seen some real cases, it is often simply not the problem.

I think ADD is often used as an excuse and an easy out by lazy or ineffective parents who have simply defaulted on raising and disciplining their children. A lot of those kids do not have ADD. They do not have attention problems. They are MISBEHAVED.

Before parents get their kids all drug addicted and pliable on medication that is basically speed, I think they should really consider their discipline in the home. Often, all a kid needs is a firm hand. Frequently, children CAN behave but simply don't respect their parents and disregard the parents authority.

The answer isn't for the children to be put on speed or anything else which can't be good for their little bodies but for the parents to get control of their own homes instead of letting the children have the control.

Have you ever seen a doctor come back with a diagnosis of "MISBEHAVED" for an unruly brat? I bet you haven't. Well, doctors and drug companies wouldn't make money if doctors told parents to go home and make their kids mind, would they?

And, if the school refers a child to a doctor, he is going to come back, "Oh yeah. This kid has ADD." If he came back telling the school they were doing a lousy job because the kid is normal and healthy, the school would sure switch doctors fast enough. So, you can't trust those school dependent doctors for correct diagnosis. Follow the money, folks!

Of course, the parents won't question it because they would rather be told their kid has ADD than that they are lousy parents. It gives them an easy out when their kid acts like a brat in public. They, then, don't have to step up to the plate and do the unpleasant task of being real parents and disciplinarians. Also, they get all kinds of sympathy because their kid has a glamour disease.

We do not yet know what the long term end result of having so many kids drugged up at an early age is going to be. I think we should be concerned about it.

I would much rather see a misbehaved child have a smart swat or two on the fanny a couple of times a year than have them drug addicted all year. I think unnecessary drug addiction is the far greater abuse of a child.

And, I do want to add that I have seen cases where a child was in eminent danger without the drugs. Those kids do need drugs so they won't run into the street in front of cars and so forth. For kids like that, yes, give them the chemicals.

[DragonsChest]

I think ADD is often used as an excuse and an easy out by lazy parents who have simply defaulted on raising and disciplining their children. A lot of those kids do not have ADD, they are MISBEHAVED.

That, and teachers who would prefer a roomful of zombies to actual live kids. Put those two things together, and the poor kid doesn't stand a chance - it's straight to popping pills!

[SSanf]

You sure got that right.

[eldora_avalon]

This is strange. I find myself in agreement with Ssanf and Val in one thread....weeeiiird. Not on everything - I dont think whacking the kid for biting is always the answer, but then again I think the biting is likely part of the situation he is in.

I think toddlers belong home with their mothers, or barring that as an option, they belong in a similar adult to child situation to being with your mom. As I have harped on ad nauseum on many occasions, I think institutionalizing kids is just wrong, but ESPECIALLY those under five.

I am not sure why home child care isnt more popular because from the outside, daycare and preschool looks to me like a mchappy processing plant for turning out shiny happy cookie cutter kids.
Wow, that hasn't been my experience at all. The first daycare my son was in was great for the most part. The ladies in the infant room were mosty grandmothers and they held him a lot. When he moved up to the toddler room I loved two of the girls in there and hated the other one. When the first two girls got mad and quit, I put him on a wait list for a daycare/preschool/latchkey program that was run by the school. The girl that he bit, well she had bit him a week or two before that, it was dark purple and almost broke the skin. When he bit her, I found little tiny bruises which I later figured out were all the places she had pinched him. He's not angel, but he is a lover, not a fighter. He would much rather charm someone than bully them.

The school run one was about the same. The older the kids are the more structure. Each age group had their own room and they had separate times on the playground. The preschool was BS, he was doing better learning at daycare, but that's a whole other story that has to do with trying to teach something to a child that should be sleeping at that time of day.

Having one child is much more common these days. That's where I am at. The thing I loved the most about daycare, other than it allowed me to continue to work, was that it gave my son playmates and time to run around like a maniac with other kids. He has great social skills, his biggest problem is he wants to hug people all the time and he invades their space. He still has trouble with the whole sitting still and completing a task, but he is one of the youngest so I am not worried.

Concerning discipline. When I spank my son it hurts his feelings. When my hubby spanks him it hurts his pride. No matter what else goes on, this is how he reacts, you can see it in his eyes.

The biggest problem I had in kindergarten was I had never had other kids to play with so my social skills sucked. I didn't know how to walk up to people and talk to them or anything. Because of daycare my son doesn't have that problem.

[eldora_avalon]

That, and teachers who would prefer a roomful of zombies to actual live kids. Put those two things together, and the poor kid doesn't stand a chance - it's straight to popping pills!
Holy crap, when my doctor was in med school, her youngest son was in kindergarten. The busdriver tried to talk her into putting him on drugs because he couldn't sit still on the bus. Some people want controllable kids at any cost. Glad my doc isn't one, she told the busdriver to stick it.

[SSanf]

Holy crap, when my doctor was in med school, her youngest son was in kindergarten. The busdriver tried to talk her into putting him on drugs because he couldn't sit still on the bus. Some people want controllable kids at any cost. Glad my doc isn't one, she told the busdriver to stick it.Good!

But, I also hope the kid caught hell at home for misbehaving on the bus.

Otherwise, there was another brat in the making.

[pawnman]

SSanf, that's exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you.

I'm glad I'm in the military and I won't have to shell out any money to get my own doctor to take a look at Aurora instead of whatever doc the school hires.

[DragonsChest]

Glad my doc isn't one, she told the busdriver to stick it.

Good for her!! And I agree with SSanf, too. If the child was misbehaving in truth, then that has to be addressed, as well.

The school wanted to put our son on Ritalin years ago, we also told them to stick it where the sun don't shine. He was not misbehaving, he just needed to wiggle more, and run. Like a little boy.

[Lunacie]

Good grief, I agree with all of you. I wasn't saying that every rambunctious, unruly child has ADD. There are probably more children who have problems because their parents don't take the time to actually parent than there are children who have actual health problems.

However, the father as good as said in the article that he has ADD - hyperactive type - himself, so the odds are high that his child also does and this is something they need to be aware of and spend a little extra time providing structure and routine and guidance.

[Valasha]

One thing that just caught in my mind about "ADD=misbehaving" Is very incorrect.

One thing my mom learned (since she got involved with other parents that had children with learning dissabilities, not just ADD/ADHD) was that alot of the kids that frequently act up in a school atmosphere are the ones with learning disabilities that dont want attention brought to the fact that they are doing poorly in the academics. I remember one kid that I just dispised in school. His grandparents had custody, (very nice people) and he constantly was the class clown....he had alot of learning disabilitys and some issues with the fact his mom abandoned him. Unfortunatly, they do over diagnose the ADHD part...any kid that acts out are the ones that they start just tossing meds to. Its those of us ADDers that are Non hyperactive that get over looked and just labled under achievers. The ADHDers get all the attention that make the rest of us look bad (which is part of the reason my dad and I always correct ppl that say he and I are ADHD, when we are not)

(edit add) Those who have actually researched ADD/ADHD and spend some time with the kids/adults with ADD can usually pick up who is a behavioral problem and who is ADD. I have coworkers I can pick out, several of which are on meds, but it was the little things they do or how they act that I picked out. When I was diagnosed the psychologist did an extensive academic and family history. Interviewed me and my family several times before they would even go forward with getting me medication. I dont think they do that any more, which is unfortunate (End edit addition)

ADHD/ADD is just a fad to some people. They seem to think that the meds are a quick fix, and they are not, they are just a tool to help. They have never fixed my problems, just helped me work around some of them. It was the structure that my mom made sure my world had, that has helped...for my ADD and for being a well behaved child.

[Athena-Nadine]

ADHD/ADD is just a fad to some people. They seem to think that the meds are a quick fix, and they are not, they are just a tool to help. They have never fixed my problems, just helped me work around some of them. It was the structure that my mom made sure my world had, that has helped...for my ADD and for being a well behaved child.

This is an important point that I think too many people today miss. Ultimately, it is the structure that is necessary, and it is the parents' responsibility to provide that, not the school system's.