What would be considered crossing the line?

[Harmony Aurore]

.

[Faeawyn]

It sounds to me like you're trying to find a way to force someone to forgive you? I may be wrong. But I feel that as long as you're sincere in your regret and your apololgy, and you really feel sorry in your heart, that is all you can do. Perhaps you can try to find a way to make it up to her.
You might be able to try a spell to help her release her anger and find peace...:whatgives:

[SageofThyme]

Why does it matter that she forgives you? Deal with what you need to deal with to resolve the issue in your own mind and move on.
In an ideal world it would be wonderful if you could work it out together but if she isn't ready to deal with it then deal with your own issues on your own. You cannot force her into it (believe I've been there).

[catgirl]

In my opinion, you have already done your part. You asked her forgiveness. Wether or not she accepts it and moves on is not within your control. She is only denying herself peace by not accepting it and dwelling on the past.

My thoughts are with you.

[catgirl]

Ok, maybe I'm going on the wrong way about this. I think you guys are right. on the other hand, I don't think i've explained myself properly. Here's my big problem:

I just feel like there's this really bad feeling (i don't know what the right term for it) surrounding it all. Like if I see her, I have the guilt still, like a kick in the gut. I can feel the hate just radiating off of her. No matter how honest I am and how I truly am sorry, it doesn't penetrate that kind of hatred. I don't know how to explain it better. But I can't escape the physical pain that her hatred is causing me, and i believe it must have a similar effect on her.
Does this make any sense? I just want the truth to be revealed so that we can all let go and get rid of these feelings that are destructive to the both of us. For me, it's the guilt that i can't get rid of no matter how much i honestly am sorry ... her, it's the hatred that she can't or doesn't want to let go of.

Any suggestions?

It may sound harsh, but don't hang around her any more. Think about it. If you put your hand on a hot stove and it hurts, you remove it. You don't continue to hold your hand there and burn yourself. You remove yourself from the situation. Yes, loosing a friend is hard. But it may be better for both of you in the long run.

[WitchCraftWeaver]

Ok, maybe I'm going on the wrong way about this. I think you guys are right. on the other hand, I don't think i've explained myself properly. Here's my big problem:

I just feel like there's this really bad feeling (i don't know what the right term for it) surrounding it all. Like if I see her, I have the guilt still, like a kick in the gut. I can feel the hate just radiating off of her. No matter how honest I am and how I truly am sorry, it doesn't penetrate that kind of hatred. I don't know how to explain it better. But I can't escape the physical pain that her hatred is causing me, and i believe it must have a similar effect on her.
Does this make any sense? I just want the truth to be revealed so that we can all let go and get rid of these feelings that are destructive to the both of us. For me, it's the guilt that i can't get rid of no matter how much i honestly am sorry ... her, it's the hatred that she can't or doesn't want to let go of.

Any suggestions?

My suggestion would be to let it go. You can only be responsible for your feelings and your karma. I can understand how you feel but there comes a point in time where you have to realize that there's nothing more you can do to change the situation. And, from the little I know, if it were me, I'd walk away because even if she acts on the outside like things have changed, it sounds like she's carrying a lot of anger on the inside and only she can address that.

[Dawa Lhamo]

If she can't forget it and doesn't want to be your friend, then I would NOT suggest doing a spell to make her see the truth. I wouldn't consider it exactly ethical. But you're right, you need to do something for the pain you're experiencing. In my mind, I'd probably go about it thusly (I'm putting it all in 1st person to remind you that this is what I'd do, not necessarily what YOU should do):

So, in any relationship, a kind of connection is formed between the two people, and all interactions happen through that connection. Now, if I wronged her and am sorry, but I still feel that bitterness through the connection we still share, what I would do is a spell to break that connection. If she can't let it go after a long time, then it is her problem. I need to come to peace with myself, and I can't do that until I'm able to deal with it alone. So, one way of doing this would be to either visualize a thread of connection (or sympathetically tie myself with a string to some kind of representation of her, like a picture or whatever). And then I would state clearly and succintly that I am breaking this connection for the good of both of us. She may just be able to forgive me if that connection isn't there, and even if she doesn't, I'll be allowing myself to heal from the situation. Then I'd visualize or actually cut the thread, and make some other kind of statement to the effect that we're now able to work on our own issues. It really doesn't matter how one does it (there are all sorts of different ways), what matters is that the connection that has become detrimental, that drags both down is no longer there.

And one can't forget to follow through with actions and working through the issue...

Just some thoughts.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Harmony Aurore]

If she can't forget it and doesn't want to be your friend, then I would NOT suggest doing a spell to make her see the truth. I wouldn't consider it exactly ethical. But you're right, you need to do something for the pain you're experiencing. In my mind, I'd probably go about it thusly (I'm putting it all in 1st person to remind you that this is what I'd do, not necessarily what YOU should do):

So, in any relationship, a kind of connection is formed between the two people, and all interactions happen through that connection. Now, if I wronged her and am sorry, but I still feel that bitterness through the connection we still share, what I would do is a spell to break that connection. If she can't let it go after a long time, then it is her problem. I need to come to peace with myself, and I can't do that until I'm able to deal with it alone. So, one way of doing this would be to either visualize a thread of connection (or sympathetically tie myself with a string to some kind of representation of her, like a picture or whatever). And then I would state clearly and succintly that I am breaking this connection for the good of both of us. She may just be able to forgive me if that connection isn't there, and even if she doesn't, I'll be allowing myself to heal from the situation. Then I'd visualize or actually cut the thread, and make some other kind of statement to the effect that we're now able to work on our own issues. It really doesn't matter how one does it (there are all sorts of different ways), what matters is that the connection that has become detrimental, that drags both down is no longer there.

And one can't forget to follow through with actions and working through the issue...

Just some thoughts.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo


That sounds like a good idea. We aren't friends anymore. I don't really talk to her. She goes to the same university as me though, so when I see her, that's when I feel it. I just see her and feel the hate. you know?

we just have friends in common. I think I will do this though. It sounds like a good idea to me. But by breaking the connection, will i be breaking the friends we have in common? I'm a little weary about that.

[Alora]

You need to let this relationship go. Some friends we have for a year or two. Some for a night. Some for a lifetime. This one is over. Let her go in peace and you as well.

If you are worried about losing common friends then they are not the right friends! You are going to have to decide if you think these are good friends.

Learn from your mistakes. Sometimes we make really bad choices that we can't ever take back and cause permanent damage. Try to find the lesson in all this and move on a little wiser.

[Dawa Lhamo]

If you are worried about losing common friends then they are not the right friends! You are going to have to decide if you think these are good friends. That's true. But think about it this way. You're only breaking the direct connection you share with this girl, not the connection with these friends, nor theirs with her. In their eyes, they've already decided to remain friends with you even though you and this girl don't get along any more. Relative to them, this shouldn't change anything, except of course you'll be happier and easier to get along with. If anything, it will make it easier on them.

And if they can't handle the fact that you and her aren't friends officially, my thoughts are 1. why are they figuring this out now? and 2. they're not really friends if they'll drop your friendship for something like this.

Good luck!

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Harmony Aurore]

That's true. But think about it this way. You're only breaking the direct connection you share with this girl, not the connection with these friends, nor theirs with her. In their eyes, they've already decided to remain friends with you even though you and this girl don't get along any more. Relative to them, this shouldn't change anything, except of course you'll be happier and easier to get along with. If anything, it will make it easier on them.

And if they can't handle the fact that you and her aren't friends officially, my thoughts are 1. why are they figuring this out now? and 2. they're not really friends if they'll drop your friendship for something like this.

Good luck!

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo


Oh, they know that we're not friends anymore. It's not a problem. I was just worried about the visualization. I didn't want that to affect my connection with them. It shouldn't be a problem though.

I really just want this negative air to clear between this girl and I. Like I said, we're not friends or anything... far from it. This girl hates me. But the hate is kinda eating away at me. So if severing the connection, as you said, will work... it should make things alot better. I will try it. Thank you so much for this.

[Kestrel Firesong]

You can't fontrol another person's actions. They will do and believe what they want to, no matter how in the right or wrong they are. Apparently, as you said, she is reading what you're writing, then she has made up her mind about the situation. Losing a friendship is hard, but is it really worth it to force her to think the way you do through magic?

[Harmony Aurore]

You can't fontrol another person's actions. They will do and believe what they want to, no matter how in the right or wrong they are. Apparently, as you said, she is reading what you're writing, then she has made up her mind about the situation. Losing a friendship is hard, but is it really worth it to force her to think the way you do through magic?

it depends... she's deceiving herself and others. She's blatantly lying and defaming my character. She is making up lies that hurt my reputation. It's just this crazy self destructive behaviour. I mean, she's even been hurting herself and her reputation over things she's done out of hate and hurt. So I think something needs to be done to allow us both to move on from the situation. I'm not really concerned about the friendship as much as "forgive and move on" so that neither of us have to be in such a crappy situation.

Hey guys, quick edit... (i posted this on my original post too)

I don't want to get the wrong point across. I'm not interested in renewing a friendship here. It's really beyond that. I don't really talk to the girl except from what i hear through friends and when i tried to apologize. I'm in a situation where I have to see her on campus and it's almost harmful how toxic the atmosphere is. This girl has done things to herself and to me which have been harmful, because she cannot forgive or just let go. Because of this, I am unable to let go either. So I think I misrepresented the situation at first. I know that she's still hurt and because of that she acts in hatred. Pure hatred. I can't stress that enough.
I'm just looking for a way that we can get past that so that we aren't acting so self-destructively. Or atleast, I want to get out of this harmful situation. That's what I need help with

[morningstar2651]

hey guys, I have an ethics/karma question.
So, about two years ago, i hurt someone who was very close to me. Although I asked for forgiveness but she has closed her mind to it. I even tried lately to explain and ask for forgiveness, yet she refuses to hear me. That is, she reads the words i write but she is closed minded to them and is stubborn to her own ways... saying that i am a liar.

Would it be out of bounds to do a spell to allow her to listen to the truth? I'm not saying to make one so that she has to forgive me, but something that will allow her to atleast consider my words and hear out the truth.

what do you guys think? this is my last resort, but i'm not sure if it's right or not... and i don't want to do something unethical.

harmony


Hey guys, quick edit...

I don't want to get the wrong point across. I'm not interested in renewing a friendship here. It's really beyond that. I don't really talk to the girl except from what i hear through friends and when i tried to apologize. I'm in a situation where I have to see her on campus and it's almost harmful how toxic the atmosphere is. This girl has done things to herself and to me which have been harmful, because she cannot forgive or just let go. Because of this, I am unable to let go either. So I think I misrepresented the situation at first. I know that she's still hurt and because of that she acts in hatred. Pure hatred. I can't stress that enough.
I'm just looking for a way that we can get past that so that we aren't acting so self-destructively. Or atleast, I want to get out of this harmful situation. That's what I need help withDistance yourself from her. She doesn't care about herself, why would she care if you apologized?

[morningstar2651]

it depends... she's deceiving herself and others. She's blatantly lying and defaming my character. She is making up lies that hurt my reputation. It's just this crazy self destructive behaviour. I mean, she's even been hurting herself and her reputation over things she's done out of hate and hurt. So I think something needs to be done to allow us both to move on from the situation. I'm not really concerned about the friendship as much as "forgive and move on" so that neither of us have to be in such a crappy situation.

Hey guys, quick edit... (i posted this on my original post too)

I don't want to get the wrong point across. I'm not interested in renewing a friendship here. It's really beyond that. I don't really talk to the girl except from what i hear through friends and when i tried to apologize. I'm in a situation where I have to see her on campus and it's almost harmful how toxic the atmosphere is. This girl has done things to herself and to me which have been harmful, because she cannot forgive or just let go. Because of this, I am unable to let go either. So I think I misrepresented the situation at first. I know that she's still hurt and because of that she acts in hatred. Pure hatred. I can't stress that enough.
I'm just looking for a way that we can get past that so that we aren't acting so self-destructively. Or atleast, I want to get out of this harmful situation. That's what I need help with
Read this (http://home.mn.rr.com/bichaunt/Trolls/index.html) now!

[morningstar2651]

Read this (http://home.mn.rr.com/bichaunt/Trolls/index.html) now!
Here is, in my opinion, the most relevant section.
After that, insist the troll stay away. Don't try to "settle your differences" with the troll. Don't try to make him or her like you. Don't even try to explain your decision to the troll. Most important: do not "keep doors open" or invite future contact. In general, from that point on, treat expelled trolls as if they don't exist.

This is very important. Trying to have any sort of relationship with expelled trolls – or even allowing them to have further contact with you or with your Coveners – will be seen as vulnerability. Trolls will interpret such actions as invitations to try again, opportunities to resume or to continue their manipulative and destructive behavior.

On the other hand, firmly cutting off contact tells a troll that you don't play trollish games, and won't be sucked into one. It sends the message that you can't be manipulated, and can't be frightened into engaging in defensive behavior.

Don't bother to answer letters from an expelled troll, or to return phone calls. It will serve no purpose. But if a troll calls you and catches you at home, don't just hang up, for this will be interpreted as fear, and will invite accusations of rudeness or something worse. It's far better to be confidant and firm – and unhurried.

Learn a few simple phrases, and practice repeating them like a broken record, firmly but calmly: "Our association has ended. We really have nothing to discuss." If the troll asks whether he or she can call you back at a better time, answer, "Our association has ended. We really have nothing to discuss." If you're asked why you're being so hard and cruel, answer, "Our association has ended. We really have nothing to discuss." If you're asked some other question – How are you these days?, or Did you see the latest Kevin Costner movie? – answer, "Our association has ended. We really have nothing to discuss." Then say, "I'm very busy right now, so I'm going to hang up. Good-bye." And then hang up. You don't need to wait for the troll to say goodbye. Chances are he or she won't.

The word "association" is much better than "relationship." Don't say, "Our relationship is over." You don't want to give the troll an opportunity to play upon any implied intimacy of a past "relationship." An "association" is a much more vague concept, more impersonal, less intimate. Describing your past connection as an "association" is likely to make the troll pause at least a bit.

At some later date, an expelled troll may call you to ask for help. The kinds of help requested could be anything, from the most mundane to the most occult. The troll could need money, or could be convinced he or she is under psychic attack, or could be in the throes of another conflict with someone else.

In any case, you really don't need to know about it, and you really don't want to get involved again. Helping the troll out of some tight jam is not your responsibility. It won't generate any feelings of gratitude or obligation on the part of the troll. It won't convince the troll that you're not really such a bad person. It won't stop the troll from spreading lies and rumors about you. All it'll do is get you tangled up again, and make you once more vulnerable to the troll's manipulative behavior.

The troll may try to guilt you into becoming involved. "I know we've had problems in the past. But I really need help now. Couldn't we put aside those petty differences?" Or, "It's been (months, years, whatever). Can't you get past what happened so long ago?" Or, "You know, holding on to your anger really isn't healthy. Can't we grow beyond all that?"

People can change, you might think. It has been a while. But unless you already have very, very strong evidence to the contrary, bear in mind that trolls generally do not change, not without a really radical cause and intensive therapy, which you probably would have heard about. Your proper answer, to all the troll's questions, is, "My energies are now going where I need to have them go. Our association has ended. I'm sure you can find what you need elsewhere."

"But no," the troll might answer. "You are the only one I can turn to," followed by a hint at your particular skills, accomplishments, attributes, knowledge, whatever the troll thinks would make you feel flattered and respected.

You answer, "My energies are now going where I need to have them go. I'm sure you can find what you need elsewhere." Then, "I'm very busy right now, so I'm going to hang up. Good-bye."

Most people are reluctant to act in such a cold and harsh manner. But politeness and concern are wasted on a troll. Such things will be used against you, to prolong a conversation, in the hopes of manipulating you again. Remember, all things in Nature must be treated according to their innate properties. You do not submerge a canary under water any more than you would try to balance a goldfish on a perch. Providing concern and politeness to a troll is no more appropriate than keeping a goldfish in a birdcage.

In the same way, you'd normally not invite a raccoon into your home, no matter how cute its eyes are. Raccoons have very strong teeth and very short tempers, are completely untamable, and will feel no gratitude for your hospitality. Raccoons are not that different from trolls.

[SSanf]

We have all done things and handled situations in ways that we shouldn't have. Feeling bad about it is an indication that you are a good person.

Sometimes we can mitigate a wrong we have done. Sometimes, we can't.

If you have done your best to make things right you must move on having learned both shame and guilt. Shame and guilt is something all good people must sometimes live with.

We just go forward trying not to do too many bad things and muddle through life with all our short comings, somehow. Knowing our own fallibility keeps us from being prideful, a lot easier to live with, more compasionate and understanding of others, which is a good thing.

Sometimes, we must just forgive ourselves even if no one else does, accept our regrets and go on.

A life with no regrets has not been fully lived.

[Harmony Aurore]

Morningstar and SSanf: thank you, that was fantastic advice. I kinda feel better about tbe situation.

Are you saying that she's a troll? she is sorta troll like in behaviour. so i could see that. kinda sucks you dry and berates you some more.

thank you guys very much. i feel kinda confidant about this...like i actually have some power in my corner.

[Harmony Aurore]

Read this (http://home.mn.rr.com/bichaunt/Trolls/index.html) now!


the troll description did describe this girl completely. Everything that she's done and still does is what they talk about... down to the projection of wrong doing. i.e. she can't understand that i am not the cause of everything that happened. She had her part in it too. You can tell about her choice of words when tries to describe what happened. thank you for this link. I understand the situation much better now.

[morningstar2651]

the troll description did describe this girl completely. Everything that she's done and still does is what they talk about... down to the projection of wrong doing. i.e. she can't understand that i am not the cause of everything that happened. She had her part in it too. You can tell about her choice of words when tries to describe what happened. thank you for this link. I understand the situation much better now.You're welcome. I'm glad I could help you out of the difficult situation.

[Gen]

Other people here gave good advice. Having been through a few similar experiences, I only have this to add:

She's choosing to hold onto this anger for a long time. She must be benefiting from it. What's the benefit? By being angry, she can manipulate good people like you who have the admirable goal of being on comfortable terms with everyone. She gets attention. She gets to feel self-righteous.

She still has something you want -- her forgiveness -- and she'll probably hold that over you for as long as it suits her. The suggestion upthread about a cord-cutting ritual isn't bad; I have done an offering, like a bouquet, to the good parts of the person, said what I wanted to say to that person in ritual, and said goodbye.

It is understandable not to want to be on bad terms with someone. It feels even worse when you're of a witchy, intuitive persuasion -- you can "feel the hate," like you said. But don't be her slave just because you want to be comfortable. Comfort has to come within, same as strength. In order to be really free (both from her and in a general sense), you have to be willing to be uncomfortable for a while.

Any magic you do that directly involves her will tie you to her karmically even more. I would advise working on yourself magically. You have a lot of obvious sensitivity and a strong sense of decency and probably a lot of other really nice qualities. Good friends up the road will see this and nurture it. You don't need to hang around with, or beg forgiveness from, people who are behaving like demons.

[Harmony Aurore]

I'm amazed at how caring everyone is here. I can't thank you all enough for your generosity with advice and your kind words.

She's choosing to hold onto this anger for a long time. She must be benefiting from it. What's the benefit? By being angry, she can manipulate good people like you who have the admirable goal of being on comfortable terms with everyone. She gets attention. She gets to feel self-righteous.

That is exactly what i've been thinking about the situation for a very long time. She likes that she gets to be the victim, I think. She's gone on telling lies to empasize her position as a victim. The people she's told, however, are close friends and know me better than that... so it's not getting her anywhere. But I guess she likes to feel like she's the victim in this "story" instread of the antagonist. I remember when we were friends, everything that happened seemed to come out of a movie... all her stories, all the things she said. I think that by making it out that way, she can be the heroine of her life and therefor she is the one who is always the victim and the one who overcomes... she can never vilify herself. so i'm the villain.


She still has something you want -- her forgiveness -- and she'll probably hold that over you for as long as it suits her. The suggestion upthread about a cord-cutting ritual isn't bad; I have done an offering, like a bouquet, to the good parts of the person, said what I wanted to say to that person in ritual, and said goodbye.

Over the past couple of weeks, I've meditated on this for a very long while. I decided that I've made my ammends. I have nothing left to offer. I realized that if she was behaving by 'societal norms' (for the lack of a better term)... I believe that I would have been forgiven. So I'm pretty content with that. The rest doesn't bother me much. She's vindictive and stubborn. There's nothing I can do about that. I've tried. I've tried very hard and I've let her hard words roll off of me, despite their ill intent. So I'm done with it. I know I'm not the same person who hurt her in the first place and I know that I have made every effort to make ammends. I can now go into a room with her present and know that I am vindicated. I can still feel her anger, but it doesn't affect me very much because I now know that it's not truly because of something I've done. Her anger is now directed at a false perception of me. I can't change that. I don't want to be connected to her anymore and I am going to break the connection.

I'm sorry that this is so long winded. I felt like I had to write this out a little for myself too. Like a formal statement. But over the last little while, I feel alot better. So thank you to everyone who has replied... you've all helped more than you can ever know.

[serenarian]

It sounds like you've had some good advice here already, Harmony, but I just want to add my two pence worth. I had a friend a couple of years back who did a similar thing to me - she decided I wasn't a good enough friend to her although I'd been bending over backwards to help her out - and every time I see her on the street I can feel the hostility from her radiating towards me. So I really do understand where you're coming from. I learned that she can project hate at me as much as she likes, but all our mutual friends are baffled at her actions towards me, and all think she's frankly a bit pathetic for it, especially as she keeps telling them sob stories about how I supposedly 'did her wrong'. You just have to be a little bit ruthless and realise this person isn't worth your time, energy, and friendship.

I hope that helps you some.

[Harmony Aurore]

It sounds like you've had some good advice here already, Harmony, but I just want to add my two pence worth. I had a friend a couple of years back who did a similar thing to me - she decided I wasn't a good enough friend to her although I'd been bending over backwards to help her out - and every time I see her on the street I can feel the hostility from her radiating towards me. So I really do understand where you're coming from. I learned that she can project hate at me as much as she likes, but all our mutual friends are baffled at her actions towards me, and all think she's frankly a bit pathetic for it, especially as she keeps telling them sob stories about how I supposedly 'did her wrong'. You just have to be a little bit ruthless and realise this person isn't worth your time, energy, and friendship.

I hope that helps you some.

That is exactly how it is with me... and our mutual friends say the same thing that yours do. thanks for sharing this. :)

[Rasenna]

Sadly, not everyone is big enough or willing enough to forgive, even if you've tried to make amends. I've had people in my life who I messed up with whom I apologized to and who still spread vicious, misinformed rumors about how I was the perpetrator and they were the victims. Life is rarely, if ever, as cut-and-dried as that. Some people have yet to learn that, and maybe they will in their next lives, but it sounds to me like you've done everything you can. Just remember: the person who doesn't forgive ends up just tearing their own psyche out. Use that as a comfort.
~R

[MorningDove030202]

Ok, so this person is a troll, and you realist that you just have to stop feeding her, right?

The only additional thing that I might do would be to address her higher self in a prayer perhapse asking her to learn from her mistakes, that way, you can get some closure, and you arn't manipulating her will, your are just asking her to learn but there is still a choice involved.


Dove

[RunningRiot]

To help heal someone of acting ignorantly destructive and/or harmful to themselves and others but not in an especially violent way, you could try this..

You need a photo of the person, some white ribbon and rose quarts.

Put the quartz on top of the picture and bind it with the ribbon saying something like, "May this stone absorb all your blind hate, all your hate, all your hate. May this stone absorb all your blind hate, and restore you with proper mind of yourself."

[Harmony Aurore]

hmmmm... i kinda like that. i'll have to think about that...

[Acid09]

So, about two years ago, i hurt someone who was very close to me. Although I asked for forgiveness but she has closed her mind to it.
She can't ease your guilt. You can though. Learn to forgive yourself for you trasgrestions against others and try to identify the behaviors that lead you to hurt her. Learn to correct those behaviors and good karma will flow your way.

[Kudzu]

I agree with what others have said. Get her out of your life entirely. Leave her alone. Ignore her.