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Vincent Verthaine
January 31st, 2006, 04:18 PM
Since the dawn of man,until about 10,000 years ago,man had been at balance with nature around him.To them,all things have a "spirit".
The Rocks had a spirit,
the trees had a spirit,
The sky had a spirit,

All had it's place in nature.Including man.
Man was of two minds.The rational,and the irrational.And it was balanced.

There may have been shamans and medicine men(women),back then,but there was no priesthood.It wasn't necessary to even have them.

Since the dawn of man,we as a species have always been curious as to what is "out there".
We wondered "why are things the way they are?"

As man progressed from a simple hunter-gather nomadic societies to more stable agricultural based societies,the questions became more complex.

Various early cultures looked at the world around them in wonder.
In an attempt to understand the world around them,they used the "rational mind" to try to explain certian phenomenom.
Individuals with high charisma were able to convince their fellow people of the validity of their rationalizations.

"The crops failed because we angered the gods".
"The gods told me how to appease them".

Simple animism met politics,and religion was born.

Simple animism became religions,the shamans and medicine men became priests.

Through out it all,it was the rational mind that was in charge.The irrational mind was shove into a dark corner.

The eastern and western worlds went into two different regarding "religion"
The eastern world,while relying on the rational mind,still understood the importance of the irrational mind.
The buddhist,taoists,and hindu's understood that.
They understood that their are many things about the universe that cannot be understood by the "rational mind".

The west on the other hand,began to soley rely on the rational mind to understand the universe.
Any thing irrational was considered wrong,unnatural.

But the suppressed irrational mind still managed to emerge.
During the middle ages, there were bouts of mass hysteria all over Europe.
Whole villages breaking out into long bouts of laughter,people sponteniouasly break out into dancing.

The rational mind reached it's apex during the Age of Enlightenment.
Science became the new religion.Everything can be rationalized.
For the next 500 yrs we saw a remarkable expansion of human knowledge.
Both science and religion tried to do away with the irrational mind.

At the dawn of the 20th century,scientists had pretty much figured they understood everything.
The universe was a mechanical universe.If you knew the position of every particle in the universe at every given time,you can accurately predict the future.It was thought that if you objectively stood outside and watched an experiment,you will get all the answers you seek.

Then came quantum physics.
Scientist studying the sub atomic world(that which underlines everything,since everything is made uf of the sub-atomic) made a startling discovery.
They discovered that our concepts of the the universe on the macroscopic scale is totally useless in describing events in the sub-atomic world.
It was impossible to observe the sub-atomic world without effecting what you are watching.
In the sub-atomic realm,determinism fell apart,and probabilities ruled.
In the sub-atomic realm,effect can preceed cause,it is possible for a particle to be at two places at the same time.
There are concepts in quantum physics that can not be understood by the rational mind.But the irrational mind understands them.

In the 50's Hill and Thornley wondered,since all western religions are based somewhat on the rational mind,what would happen if we looked at the universe through the irrational mind.
Thus discordianism was born.
Established pagans were outraged.
"Your beliefs make no sense"
"Discordianism won't last more then 6 months."

The more the early discordians studied Eris with the irrational mind,the more we discovered that discoveries were in line with what the quantum physicists were saying.
And what the eastern philosophies were saying for millenium.

We have problems communicating with the more "tradition bound" pagans(the eclectics don't seem to have as much of a broblem groking what we are saying)because what we say to them makes absolutely no sense to them,since they still use the rational mind to see things.But the irrational mind in them does understand.
When we say
Chaos underlines everything-thier rational minds are saying
"Thats utter rubbish"

But their irrational mind,stuck in that dark corner says'They are right ,you know".

The rational mind cannot stand to have the irrational mind understand something that it cannot.

That is why there will always be those who hate discordians.
We remind the rational mind that their are things it cannot understand.

There are things about the universe we discordians knowthat hierarchal pagans can never understand,bacause they won't let themselves understand.

The eclectics and solitary pagans are beginning to understand.

Tzhebee
January 31st, 2006, 04:33 PM
There is the old saying (I have no idea how old or who said it...) that people fear what they do not understand. I like to expand by saying people hate that which they fear.

The reason so many people "hate" discordians is because they don't understand...and even those who try to understand and "wrap their mind" around the thought process (or lack thereof) of discordianism....their programed rational thought gets in the way.

I don't think the rational mind cannot understand it...instead it chooses not to in order to protect itself. Because if we were all discordians...what would happen to the rational mind?

Rudas Starblaze
January 31st, 2006, 07:25 PM
so whats the opposite of a discordian? an accordian? cause my grandma knows how to play one of those.

Fire's Shadow
January 31st, 2006, 08:09 PM
I don't hate discordians. In fact, I find myself agreeing with what you say a whole lot of the times. I really enjoyed that point of view. Then again... I'm eclectic, hehe.

Vincent Verthaine
February 1st, 2006, 03:17 AM
There is the old saying (I have no idea how old or who said it...) that people fear what they do not understand. I like to expand by saying people hate that which they fear.

The reason so many people "hate" discordians is because they don't understand...and even those who try to understand and "wrap their mind" around the thought process (or lack thereof) of discordianism....their programed rational thought gets in the way.

I don't think the rational mind cannot understand it...instead it chooses not to in order to protect itself. Because if we were all discordians...what would happen to the rational mind?

The rational and the irrational minds have to work together.

At one point in time,you would have been considered very irrational (you'd have been very lucky if thats all that happened) if you said that the earth is not the center of the universe,or that the earth revolves around the sun (Look what happened to Galileo when he said it).

"Love thy neighbor as you would love thyself" was once considered a very irrational statement.

Relying solely on the irrational mind is no better then relying solely on the rational mind.There has got to be a balance.There is a need for both.

The point we discordians are trying to make is that western culture relies on the rational mind way too much.

History is filled with atrocities commited by very rational people.

Just because we suppress the irrational mind,doesn't mean we've gotten rid of it.

It will just come out in ways that my not be in ones best interest.
How many times have we heard this one on the news

"But he was such a nice quiet boy.Always said hello. Who knew he was capable of eating the entire population of Podunk."

We discordians are trying to learn how to connect with the irrational mind,and then channel it to learn things about Goddess/universe the rational mind cannot understand.Then the rational and irrational mind can "discuss" what each knows,so that there is greater understanding on both sides.

Technically,the opposite of a discordian is a Greyface.
Someone who over-rationalizes everything.Someone who takes things way too seriously..:lol:

Rowan Darkmoon
February 1st, 2006, 04:34 AM
Doesn't it make more sense to think that chaos underlies everything? If order underlied everything, then why would we need to create it? Everything would already be orderly, and everything would function the same. I find it more comforting to believe that chaos underlies everything because then when everything goes to hell I'm not surprised. :lol:

But then again, I spend my days with the mentally ill. Not a rational bunch, but they always make sense in their own way.

Vincent Verthaine
February 1st, 2006, 05:11 AM
Doesn't it make more sense to think that chaos underlies everything? If order underlied everything, then why would we need to create it? Everything would already be orderly, and everything would function the same. I find it more comforting to believe that chaos underlies everything because then when everything goes to hell I'm not surprised. :lol:

But then again, I spend my days with the mentally ill. Not a rational bunch, but they always make sense in their own way.

In Islam,the mentally ill are considered,"touched by Allah",under his protection, and are to be respected and cared for.

Chaos isn't always destructive or a bad thing.

At a rather low peroid of my life,I was hanging out at the local goth club,looking fabulous and hating life.I was bored of the dating scene.
I had given up serious dating for a year.
Around my way,I have a rep as the guy you can always come to when you need straight answers (you may not like what I have to say,but I don't beat around the bush).

This tall,good looking redhead I've seen around my social circles comes up to my table and asks me advice on how to get rid of the mooching,won't get a job,fools around all the time and never treats her right boyfriend of hers.
I give her a straight answer and we just hang out and talked.Find out that she's a leo also.I admit my interest is piqued,but I know better then to mess with a women who still has some luggage.So I didn't pursue .

3 month's later,at that same club,she walks up to my table holding two beers in her hands. That definately got my attention.It may have been the low cut dress she was wearing also.
I asked her how things went.She said she dumped the loser,and took a little time off to get her life straight.
I offer to buy the next round,but she says she'll get it if she can ask me one more question.Well,who am I to turn down free beer.
She returns with the beer.
I ask her(after taking a nice big swill) "So,whats your question?"

She comes right out and says,"I'd like to go out with you".
After the initial shock died down,I said "Sure.You know I've never had a women ask me out before".
She smiled at me and said "Hail Eris".
And I knew my life would never be the same again.

We've been married for five years now.
Thank you Eris.

Rowan Darkmoon
February 1st, 2006, 05:37 AM
In Islam,the mentally ill are considered,"touched by Allah",under his protection, and are to be respected and cared for.

I agree that's why I work with them. Like I said, they are not always "rational" about what they are feeling, seeing, or expressing, but it always makes sense. It is rational in it's "irrationality," in that our concepts of rationality or irrationality are limited, not because they are what I would consider irrational.


Chaos isn't always destructive or a bad thing.

Your plans can go to hell and end up something wonderful, or they can go to hell and end up going to hell. I suppose it depends on how committed you are to your plans. It has always made less sense to me to try to force order when things are obviously bent on falling apart, then to just roll with the punches.

I met my husband Rudas Starblaze on this forum when I PM-ed him to personally (but politely :) ) disagree with him. I planned on being very angry at him for making a lame-o comment, but we started talking and my plans changed. For me, finding comfort in chaos is not necessarily a form of pessism in thinking that chaos is a destructive or bad thing, but the idea that for all of the best laid plans in the world, things can happen to change them for better or for worse. Why be peeved off when that happens vs. viewing it as a normal and intergal part of the system?

Vincent Verthaine
February 1st, 2006, 05:42 AM
I agree that's why I work with them. Like I said, they are not always "rational" about what they are feeling, seeing, or expressing, but it always makes sense. It is rational in it's "irrationality," in that our concepts of rationality or irrationality are limited, not because they are what I would consider irrational.



Your plans can go to hell and end up something wonderful, or they can go to hell and end up going to hell. I suppose it depends on how committed you are to your plans. It has always made less sense to me to try to force order when things are obviously bent on falling apart, then to just roll with the punches.

I met my husband Rudas Starblaze on this forum when I PM-ed him to personally (but politely :) ) disagree with him. I planned on being very angry at him for making a lame-o comment, but we started talking and my plans changed. For me, finding comfort in chaos is not necessarily a form of pessism in thinking that chaos is a destructive or bad thing, but the idea that for all of the best laid plans in the world, things can happen to change them for better or for worse. Why be peeved off when that happens vs. viewing it as a normal and intergal part of the system?

From the Book of Eris:
"If your really want to make Eris laugh,make plans".

Rowan Darkmoon
February 1st, 2006, 06:05 AM
From the Book of Eris:
"If your really want to make Eris laugh,make plans".

:rotfl: I like that.

Meabh23
February 1st, 2006, 06:37 AM
Doesn't it make more sense to think that chaos underlies everything? If order underlied everything, then why would we need to create it? Everything would already be orderly, and everything would function the same. I find it more comforting to believe that chaos underlies everything because then when everything goes to hell I'm not surprised. :lol:

But then again, I spend my days with the mentally ill. Not a rational bunch, but they always make sense in their own way.

What I have gathered is that "chaos" is not the opposition to order. Order is opposed by disorder. Chaos is simply these two principles in balance, much like the classical Chinese idea of "Dao". (Or what the Tibetans call "rikpa"). So chaos is what is what we all are. The emptiness of intrinsic reality. The emptiness of any limitations.

Rowan Darkmoon
February 1st, 2006, 05:21 PM
What I have gathered is that "chaos" is not the opposition to order. Order is opposed by disorder. Chaos is simply these two principles in balance, much like the classical Chinese idea of "Dao". (Or what the Tibetans call "rikpa"). So chaos is what is what we all are. The emptiness of intrinsic reality. The emptiness of any limitations.

I forgot that, thank you! :)

Hawk Shadowsoul
February 2nd, 2006, 12:58 PM
Now this is an interesting thread.

I am glad to see there are still those among who are willing to share ideas in an intelligent manner. I have tried in the past to catagorize myself, and it seems to be beyond my grasp. I finally decided that to be balanced in my approach to life and my path is critical to my remaining sanity. How often we forget the simple rule that is core to the creation, and the rule of MW. Respect. I truly do enjoy listening to views that may differ from my own. It allows me to expand myself and perhaps to learn something along the way. I had no idea what a discordian was, and was afraid with all the name calling and finger pointing, I would never find out. To question everything is crucial. Blindly following and accepting is the road to absolute monarchy, and the one thing I do know about myself, is I would suffocate under that mantra.
I thank you for this thread, and hope it remains an open and friendly exchange of ideas and philosophies.

Malcolm
February 2nd, 2006, 01:25 PM
*shrugs*

I could care less about either one. Chaos is fine, I don't mind order either. Just don't tell me which one is more important or harder to understand. They both equally confuse the crap out of me.

Meabh23
February 3rd, 2006, 01:08 AM
*shrugs*

I could care less about either one. Chaos is fine, I don't mind order either. Just don't tell me which one is more important or harder to understand. They both equally confuse the crap out of me.


From what I can gather in my sifting through the tons of Discordian writings, that confusion means you actually do understand. If that makes sense.

Malcolm
February 3rd, 2006, 01:10 AM
well how bout that...

Meabh23
February 3rd, 2006, 04:46 AM
well how bout that...

Funny how these things work, isn't it?

EJ1096
February 6th, 2006, 05:32 AM
Now this is an interesting thread.

I am glad to see there are still those among who are willing to share ideas in an intelligent manner. I have tried in the past to catagorize myself, and it seems to be beyond my grasp. I finally decided that to be balanced in my approach to life and my path is critical to my remaining sanity. How often we forget the simple rule that is core to the creation, and the rule of MW. Respect. I truly do enjoy listening to views that may differ from my own. It allows me to expand myself and perhaps to learn something along the way. I had no idea what a discordian was, and was afraid with all the name calling and finger pointing, I would never find out. To question everything is crucial. Blindly following and accepting is the road to absolute monarchy, and the one thing I do know about myself, is I would suffocate under that mantra.
I thank you for this thread, and hope it remains an open and friendly exchange of ideas and philosophies.

My deepest appreciation for putting my thoughts into words. Thank you

Vincent Verthaine
February 7th, 2006, 03:18 PM
In a world of caterpillars,it is the butterfly that is a danger to the way things are
Phil Hine


BELIEFS ARE DANGEROUS.
BELIEFS ALLOW THE MIND TO STOP FUNCTIONING.
A NON-FUNCTIONING MIND IS CLINICALLY DEAD.
BELIEVE IN NOTHING.
Book of Eris.

To the rational mind,nothing is to be hated and feared more then that which threatens the staus quo.The rational mind speands all its energy trying to analyze,generalize,compartmenize,catergorize,and caramelize everything it experiences into something it calls "beliefs about reality".
Once everything is set into "beliefs about reality",the rational mind feels it is no longer necessary to ponder it any longer.It no longer asks questions.

Rather it accepts its "beliefs about reality" and begins to mistake it FOR REALITY.It has become gospel to the rational mind.The map has become the territory.

Problems arise when the rational mind encounters something (or some one) that refuse to fit into their "beliefs about reality".
Albert Einstien couldn't accept the fact that quantum physics(which ironically,was based a lot on his work on Special Relativity) seemed to indicate that at the quantum level (that which makes up everything) God DOES play at dice.He spent the remaining part of his life trying to disprove that,and failed.
The rational mind wants to maintain it's belief structure at all cost,even to the point of becoming irrational to maintain it. The rational mind HAS to be correct in its assessment of reality( or else the irrational mind will say,"Gee,maybe you don't know everything after all"),and will do,and has done,everything to maintain the integrity of it's belief structure.

Man is a social animal,and like all social animals,tends to fall into either the alpha catagory(leaders) or beta catagory(followers).
Alpha's(more then beta's) have a more vested interest in maintaining the groups reality structure,maintaining the status quo.Anything that threatens the status quo is taboo.
New ideas that doesn't support the current paradigm of the rational mind is to be fought literally tooth and nail.Anyone who espouses ideas that runs counter to the current paradigm of the rational mind is to be destroyed at all costs.

But there is something that the irrational mind fully accepts,something that the rational mind does not wish to face.
Things change.Pure and simple.Things change.

Meabh23
February 7th, 2006, 03:23 PM
In a world of caterpillars,it is the butterfly that is a danger to the way things are
Phil Hine


BELIEFS ARE DANGEROUS.
BELIEFS ALLOW THE MIND TO STOP FUNCTIONING.
A NON-FUNCTIONING MIND IS CLINICALLY DEAD.
BELIEVE IN NOTHING.
Book of Eris.


Phil Hine, huh? One of the best occult writers on the block.

As for beliefs, you would be loved by Tibetans for your stance.

Vincent Verthaine
February 7th, 2006, 04:04 PM
Phil Hine, huh? One of the best occult writers on the block.

As for beliefs, you would be loved by Tibetans for your stance.
Thanx sweetie.I have always had a deep love and respect for Tibet and it's culture and it's people.

About a decade ago I pulled some major strings and got to take my daughter to the Newark Museum to see the Dali Lama bless a Tibetan buddhist temple
the museum had on display.
It has got to rank as one of the most beautiful experiances I ever had.(the Dali Lama is one of my personal heros.)

Meabh23
February 7th, 2006, 04:12 PM
Thanx sweetie.I have always had a deep love and respect for Tibet and it's culture and it's people.

About a decade ago I pulled some major strings and got to take my daughter to the Newark Museum to see the Dali Lama bless a Tibetan buddhist temple
the museum had on display.
It has got to rank as one of the most beautiful experiances I ever had.(the Dali Lama is one of my personal heros.)


His Holiness is cherished by all of us of Tibetan heritage, even the black sheep like me. It's good that others have been able to get to know him too.

Hawk Shadowsoul
February 7th, 2006, 08:19 PM
Vincent, I am not chaos based, just the opposite, which is exactly why I find myself agreeing with you on may points. We do not create reality, it just is. Our lack of ability to understand this does nothing to alter this fact. We seem to have come to a point of balance. You and I cannot exist without the other. Damn connundrum, ain't it?

Meabh23
February 7th, 2006, 08:25 PM
Vincent, I am not chaos based, just the opposite, which is exactly why I find myself agreeing with you on may points. We do not create reality, it just is. Our lack of ability to understand this does nothing to alter this fact. We seem to have come to a point of balance. You and I cannot exist without the other. Damn connundrum, ain't it?

Better a conundrum than a doldrum. Badoomdoomching!

Little Billy
February 7th, 2006, 10:46 PM
What I have gathered is that "chaos" is not the opposition to order. Order is opposed by disorder. Chaos is simply these two principles in balance, much like the classical Chinese idea of "Dao". (Or what the Tibetans call "rikpa"). So chaos is what is what we all are. The emptiness of intrinsic reality. The emptiness of any limitations.

That's something I have always disagreed with. Balance is for Buddhists.

Pushing things over is for Discordians. At least the fun ones.

LB,
I could knock the world over, if you gave me a big enoug lever, and a place to stand.

Meabh23
February 7th, 2006, 10:57 PM
That's something I have always disagreed with. Balance is for Buddhists.

Pushing things over is for Discordians. At least the fun ones.

LB,
I could knock the world over, if you gave me a big enoug lever, and a place to stand.

You couldn't get anywhere if you couldn't stand up on two legs. That takes balance. Even if you grew old and used a granny cart, you'd fall over and rack you head open into a coma, if you couldn't balance the cart. You need balance even to just tip something over, unless you want to go over with it.

However, since you like spinning around so much, they do have drugs for that. You know this, I hope.

Little Billy
February 7th, 2006, 11:07 PM
You couldn't get anywhere if you couldn't stand up on two legs. That takes balance. Even if you grew old and used a granny cart, you'd fall over and rack you head open into a coma, if you couldn't balance the cart. You need balance even to just tip something over, unless you want to go over with it.

However, since you like spinning around so much, they do have drugs for that. You know this, I hope.

1. Actually, I thought of that, and bought a golf cart.

2. You just told me I couldn't have any. I'M SO CONFUSED! :awilly:

Meabh23
February 7th, 2006, 11:25 PM
1. Actually, I thought of that, and bought a golf cart.

2. You just told me I couldn't have any. I'M SO CONFUSED! :awilly:

Those are the hormones. Sorry.

Little Billy
February 7th, 2006, 11:28 PM
Those are the hormones. Sorry.


Hmmm...Maybe I need some more. Give me the stuff in the BLUE jar, this time.

Meabh23
February 7th, 2006, 11:31 PM
Hmmm...Maybe I need some more. Give me the stuff in the BLUE jar, this time.

Sorry. All out. The nurses around here had a fiend session last night.

We only have the red jar left.

Little Billy
February 7th, 2006, 11:46 PM
Sorry. All out. The nurses around here had a fiend session last night.

We only have the red jar left.

Ohhh...well, okay! I'm up for any program!

Meabh23
February 7th, 2006, 11:47 PM
Ohhh...well, okay! I'm up for any program!

That's the attitude I like!

Keep that up and you'll go far with this program.

Little Billy
February 7th, 2006, 11:51 PM
That's the attitude I like!

Keep that up and you'll go far with this program.


Hot damn! Does that mean I'll eventually get to wear a helmet when you do that awful THING?

Meabh23
February 7th, 2006, 11:53 PM
Hot damn! Does that mean I'll eventually get to wear a helmet when you do that awful THING?

That and a flak jacket. Don't bother hiding behind any walls, they'll be first to go.

Little Billy
February 7th, 2006, 11:57 PM
That and a flak jacket. Don't bother hiding behind any walls, they'll be first to go.


I know. I saw what happened to MGD. But we're running out of convents, you know.

Meabh23
February 8th, 2006, 12:03 AM
I know. I saw what happened to MGD. But we're running out of convents, you know.

Convents? Who needs those?

Bunch of nuns sitting around getting free rides.

Little Billy
February 8th, 2006, 12:09 AM
Convents? Who needs those?

Bunch of nuns sitting around getting free rides.

We do, if we want the maximum score.

LB,
Thinks you overdid it last time, though.

Meabh23
February 8th, 2006, 12:14 AM
We do, if we want the maximum score.

LB,
Thinks you overdid it last time, though.

It is just not "done" unless it is overdone.

Little Billy
February 8th, 2006, 12:21 AM
It is just not "done" unless it is overdone.

Well, yeah, but...Ugh. That was hideous.

I had to laugh, though, at the one that thought she got away.

Meabh23
February 8th, 2006, 05:25 AM
Well, yeah, but...Ugh. That was hideous.

I had to laugh, though, at the one that thought she got away.

It's always best to let a few of them think "they've gotten away." More entertainment for later on.

eldora_avalon
February 10th, 2006, 02:50 AM
Vincent, I am not chaos based, just the opposite, which is exactly why I find myself agreeing with you on may points. We do not create reality, it just is. Our lack of ability to understand this does nothing to alter this fact. We seem to have come to a point of balance. You and I cannot exist without the other. Damn connundrum, ain't it?
Chaos is a balance of order and disorder, we are all Chaos. The mystics and the Mathemagicians, I mean Mathemeticians are meeting around back on this one. Systems that seem to be very ordered aren't always. Systems that seem disordered aren't always.

The history of Chaos Theory is actually a pretty good example of this. There were weather guys, bio guys, computer guys and math guys. OK, guys means people, anyway, they were all working on bits of the same puzzle, but none of them seemed interested in anyone elses pieces. One guy was named Lorenz, he was a weather guy. He realised that weather is a chaotic system. That initial conditions that aren't measured very precisely can throw off the results you get, like the butterfly in the Amazon creating a hurricane, or the caribou fart creating a blizzard. He studied things like water flowing from a faucet and the Lorenz Attractor is named after him.

Sorry, I got lost in the world of fractals :wave:
http://astronomy.swin.edu.au/~pbourke/fractals/lorenz/