1734 tradition

[David19]

Does anyone know anything about the 1734 tradition since i've heard about it on a few sites and am curious about it. Some say Robert Cohrane learned from a seperate witch coven (not Gardinarian) and others say he learned from a Gardinarian coven and made up the story, is there any evidence for a seperate witchcraft tradition, also are they a brand of wicca since i think they worship a goddess and a god but is it a seperate religion/tradition, also does it have ties with Judaism since on one site, it says, one of their names for their god is Tubel-Cain, is that the same guy from Judaism (and if it is, i didn't know he was a god).

Thanks, hope that made sense.

[Ben Gruagach]

Robert Cochrane set himself up as a competitor to Gardner and was quite vocal in his opinion that Gardner's style of witchcraft was not "real" witchcraft. I guess you could say it was one of the earliest (and most public) witch war. Part of this whole fuss involved Cochrane trying to claim the label Traditional Witchcraft for his group's exclusive use -- you'll find that today some people mean Cochrane's brand of witchcraft when they refer to "Traditional Witchcraft."

Cochrane would probably be offended to be lumped in the Wicca category which most people today consider to be at least Gardner-inspired if not Gardner-descended witchcraft. So it's probably safer to say that Cochrane's system is a form of English witchcraft (whether you consider it to be a religion or just a magickal system) and leave it at that. It does seem though that at least some people who practice Cochrane-derived or Cochrane-inspired systems do call themselves Wiccans.

Cochrane is another one who is famous for saying that he was merely passing on an intact ancient tradition which the historical evidence does not support. He's also been caught out in making some pretty bold lies publicly. For instance, Doreen Valiente (who worked with Cochrane and his group in the 1960s) relates in one of her books (I think it's "The Rebirth of Witchcraft") about how she had given Cochrane this nice copper platter she bought at a second-hand store with the intention that it be used to hold the ritual cakes. The plate had all sorts of very pagan designs on it -- and coincidentally it also had a date inscribed on it -- 1724 (not the more significant 1734 unfortunately.) In Justine Glass' book about witchcraft Cochrane displayed the plate (it's even in a photo of him showing it off) and insisted that the plate had been passed down for generations within a witchcraft family in his coven. So Cochrane was not above lying about all sorts of things which of course puts a lot of his historical claims into question.

Regardless whether Cochrane's history is true, regardless if his system was invented after Gardner's system, it's still a system that works for those who choose to follow it.

On the question of whether Cochrane's followers worship the same deities as Gardner-derived Wiccans -- it's not a straightforward "yes or no" answer. Wiccans worship a lot of different deities. We don't have just one god and one goddess that all Wiccans are expected to worship (although we do tend to emphasize the idea of worshipping a balanced pair of a god and a goddess however you want to depict them.) I'm sure there is overlap in the various deities that are worshipped by 1734 followers and Wiccans of Gardner's type.

Cochrane did tend to draw on Jewish and Christian myth in his system (like the Tubal Cain reference he was so fond of) but you'll find it exists in Gardner's Wicca as well. Both draw on ceremonial magick practices for some of their inspiration and a lot of the material available on that has a definite Christian or Jewish (Kabbala) flavour. So it's not really surprising that it pops up in modern witchcraft.

To learn more I'd recommend reading books like the following:
"The Roebuck in the Thicket" by Evan John Jones & Mike Howard.
"The Robert Cochrane Letters" by Robert Cochrane & Evan John Jones, edited by Mike Howard.
"The Pillars of Tubal Cain" by Nigel Jackson and Mike Howard.
"The Rites and Rituals of Traditional Witchcraft" by Tony Steele.

I'd also strongly recommend reading Doreen Valiente's "The Rebirth of Witchcraft" as it covers the history of Gardner's Wicca, Cochrane's witchcraft system, and others often from her own first-person viewpoint. She did work with both Gardner and Cochrane and definitely knew her stuff.

[omar]

I thought Doreen V. took over Gardeners group after he died?

[Ben Gruagach]

I thought Doreen V. took over Gardeners group after he died?

No.

Doreen left Gardner's group after Gardner tried to have her kicked out of her position as High Priestess for the coven (Gardner wanted a younger woman to take over the position) back in the late 1950s. Gardner had a number of other women as High Priestess of his coven after Doreen, including such notable women as Patricia Crowther and Monique Wilson. There are others too.

If you check out "The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism" edited by Shelley Rabinovitch and James Lewis you'll find some informative entries that explain the basic roles of various people in the history of modern Paganism and Wicca in particular.

[Dawa Lhamo]

If you check out "The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Peopleism" edited by Shelley Rabinovitch and James Lewis you'll find some informative entries that explain the basic roles of various people in the history of modern Peopleism and Wicca in particular.hehe, I thought about answering this, but then I thought, well, BenG will answer it better AND include sources, so I might as well wait. Gee, I must be psychic or something. ;)

Other than that, I just wanted to subscribe to this thread to see where the conversation goes. I've heard of 1734, but I've never met anyone who practices it.

Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[Semjaza]

Does anyone know anything about the 1734 tradition since i've heard about it on a few sites and am curious about it.


As far as I know, 1734 began in the US. It was created by a man (Joseph B. Wilson) who had corresponded with Robert Cochrane (Roy Bowers). There were other influences on the tradition besides Cochrane, so while it may be similar to Cochrane's witchcraft, I don't know who would be able to judge for sure. Wilson's site seems to only exist as an archive now, but the link is: http://web.archive.org/web/20041014063809/www.1734.us/index.html
Does anyone know if Wilson is still alive?


Some say Robert Cochrane learned from a seperate witch coven (not Gardinarian) and others say he learned from a Gardinarian coven and made up the story, is there any evidence for a seperate witchcraft tradition, also are they a brand of wicca since i think they worship a goddess and a god but is it a seperate religion/tradition, also does it have ties with Judaism since on one site, it says, one of their names for their god is Tubel-Cain, is that the same guy from Judaism (and if it is, i didn't know he was a god).



I'd say only Cochrane himself knows (knew) the answer to that. This site: http://www.ecauldron.com/historywicca.php says that he was initiated by Gardnerians. However, Cochrane's witchcraft seems to be quite different from Gardnerianism. It could be possible that, like many others, he was initiated into more than one tradition (or developed his own).

I don't know much about Tubal or the Judaism ties, but I do recall reading somewhere that Cochrane saw his witchcraft as a mystery tradition, and accepted that some of Christianity's mysteries were very similar (Mary and the resurrected Christ were Christianized versions of the Goddess and reborn God). Maybe Valiente?

But anyway, now I'm rambling. I'll just add that I wouldn't consider 1734 to be Cochrane's tradition, though it is inspired by him.

Cheers,

Semjaza
FFFF

[Ben Gruagach]

Unfortunately Joseph "Bearwalker" Wilson, who founded the 1734 denomination, is no longer with us. That's why his excellent 1734 website is now only available through things like the internet archive website.

His website (the link to it in the internet archive is http://web.archive.org/web/20041014063809/www.1734.us/index.html again for anyone who hasn't checked it out yet) is really the best one for understanding what the 1734 tradition is about. Joe Wilson didn't keep any secrets there.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

The book with the platter is Justine Glass' 'Witchcraft , the Sixth Sense - and Us'. It's still in print, I recently saw a copy at the WCC's Occult Shop in Toronto.
To be cruel and blunt, the spat between Cochrane and Gardner was more or less a contest in the 'I invented modern pagan witchcraft before YOU invented modern pagan withcraft' vein.

[Ben Gruagach]

The book with the platter is Justine Glass' 'Witchcraft , the Sixth Sense - and Us'. It's still in print, I recently saw a copy at the WCC's Occult Shop in Toronto.
To be cruel and blunt, the spat between Cochrane and Gardner was more or less a contest in the 'I invented modern pagan witchcraft before YOU invented modern pagan withcraft' vein.

The way they were putting the spat was "my witchcraft is the REAL traditional witchcraft and yours is just a fake modern invention."

Personally I'm not convinced that either existed in the form they presented prior to either Gardner or Cochrane. Witchcraft practices did, but not Gardnerian or Cochrane-style witchcraft.

[Dave Finnin]

Hello,

For more information about 1734 and the Clan of Tubal Cain, read Ann Finnin's
'The Forge of Tubal Cain'

FFF, Dave Finnin

[Ben Gruagach]

Hello,

For more information about 1734 and the Clan of Tubal Cain, read Ann Finnin's
'The Forge of Tubal Cain'

FFF, Dave Finnin

I've read Ann Finnin's book and found it to be very interesting. Its focus though is on the American branch of Cochrane's teachings and only includes a bit of historical information about the UK branch.

Someday I hope someone in the know will write books about Cochrane himself and the early days of his group (in the 1960s before Cochrane died), sort of like how Philip Heselton has done with Gerald Gardner.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Holy thread necromancy!

Something else that occurs to me is that the 1734 number is derived from numerology from The White Goddess. If that's not a hallmark of something being made up, I don't know what is :P

(Please note that Gardner's reliance on Margaret Murray's work is also a hallmark of something being made up)

[Ben Gruagach]

Holy thread necromancy!

Something else that occurs to me is that the 1734 number is derived from numerology from The White Goddess. If that's not a hallmark of something being made up, I don't know what is :P

(Please note that Gardner's reliance on Margaret Murray's work is also a hallmark of something being made up)

Doreen Valiente talks a bit about the history of the number 1734 in Cochrane's system in "Rebirth of Witchcraft."

[Dave Finnin]

Hello,

1734 is not a date but as Robert Cochrane said a group of numbers that mean something to a 'Witch'.

When he asked Joe Wildon if he understood the order of 1734, he meant the symbolism the numbers represents.

In the same letter Robert Cochrane suggested Joe to look at the writings of Robert Graves

Also please remember 'The Rebirth of Witchcraft' was not writing until 1989.

FFF, Dave Finnin

[Ben Gruagach]

Also please remember 'The Rebirth of Witchcraft' was not writing until 1989.

I'm not sure I follow how that's relevant. The book is about the history of modern Wicca and Witchcraft (in England anyways) written by someone who gave a lot of first-hand accounts, including accounts of her involvement with Robert Cochrane and his group.

[Dave Finnin]

I'm not sure I follow how that's relevant. The book is about the history of modern Wicca and Witchcraft (in England anyways) written by someone who gave a lot of first-hand accounts, including accounts of her involvement with Robert Cochrane and his group. __________________
;)
Ben Gruagach


Hello Ben,

Until Ann and I visited John Jones in 1982 she did not know about the letters to
Joe Wilson or the information in them.

The book did talk about the plate with the number 1724 she gave Robert Cochrane.

But she does not talk about 1734.

FFF, Dave Finnin

[Ben Gruagach]

Until Ann and I visited John Jones in 1982 she did not know about the letters to
Joe Wilson or the information in them.

The book did talk about the plate with the number 1724 she gave Robert Cochrane.

But she does not talk about 1734.

FFF, Dave Finnin


Hi Dave.

I'm still confused -- when you say "she did not know about the letters to Joe Wilson" do you mean Ann or Doreen?

Regardless, I didn't mean to imply that the American tradition called 1734 was discussed in Doreen Valiente's book -- sorry if I gave that false impression. What I was saying is that Doreen Valiente worked with Robert Cochrane during the 1960s, and wrote about him (along with many others) in her book "Rebirth of Witchcraft." And you are right that she doesn't mention 1734 in "Rebirth of Witchcraft" -- although she does relate how an old plate with the number 1724 engraved on it came into Cochrane's possession (Doreen gave it to him rather than Cochrane having inherited it from a family member as he claimed publicly.)

[Dave Finnin]

Hello Ben,

I did mean Doreen, 1734 is Joe Wilson's tradition and Clan of Tubal Cain is Roy Bowers. I would say that her 'Witchcraft a Tradition Renewed' is the book to get to read about the Clan of Tubal Cain.

FFF, Dave Finnin


Hi Dave.

I'm still confused -- when you say "she did not know about the letters to Joe Wilson" do you mean Ann or Doreen?

Regardless, I didn't mean to imply that the American tradition called 1734 was discussed in Doreen Valiente's book -- sorry if I gave that false impression. What I was saying is that Doreen Valiente worked with Robert Cochrane during the 1960s, and wrote about him (along with many others) in her book "Rebirth of Witchcraft." And you are right that she doesn't mention 1734 in "Rebirth of Witchcraft" -- although she does relate how an old plate with the number 1724 engraved on it came into Cochrane's possession (Doreen gave it to him rather than Cochrane having inherited it from a family member as he claimed publicly.)