CNN on Unschooling

[Ceres]

There is going to be a show on unschooling tonight on CNN that will likely have me throwing things at my TV, but of course I will have to watch anyway :lol: Its on Anderson Cooper at 10 pm EST. Here is a link to the article about it: www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/27/gutierrez.unschooing/index.html

[Shanti]

Link bad. :(

I hope thay are not going to bash homeschooling!!

My 7 year old is doing multiplication with multiple digit numbers and division, complex division to. Fractions and all of that with decimals to boot. She reads at a 3-4 th grade level.

Her sciences are fantastic!! Biology is great.
And much more!!

She is learning so much more than any school could teach her.

[Winter_wolf]

Unschooling is different than homeschooling. Basic idea is to let the kid do what they want...

Here's another link...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/27/gutierrez.unschooing/index.html


I know that format would not work for my kid... if you don't have it structured for her all she wants to do is play video games and watch tv. I guess it would work for some but I'm skeptical... real life ie jobs and such are for the most part structured...

[Shanti]

Unschooling is different than homeschooling. Basic idea is to let the kid do what they want...

Here's another link...
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/27/gutierrez.unschooing/index.html


I know that format would not work for my kid... if you don't have it structured for her all she wants to do is play video games and watch tv. I guess it would work for some but I'm skeptical... real life ie jobs and such are for the most part structured...

I do!!! We have no structure at all. And we are second/third shift so we do most stuff during the night!

[Shanti]

But we have rules!! TV is for educational. PC is for all the educational stuff I put on it. Play with permission. She was playing to much and got caught..pc went bye bye for a few days. Trust is important.

We do have to cover 7 basic subjects per year and she can pick extras.

I buy books that she must learn, read.

But I dont grade or test. Thats a waist of time cause she isnt allowed to learn new till she learns the present task 100%

But one day she may want to indulge in all math. The next on all science and so on.

She has no set hours but she has to do at least so much in the course of her awake time!

We also school not on just weekdays but weekends cause she gets bored!

School is more a way of life. not something done from 8am to 3pm.

[Ceres]

Yeah, unschooling doesnt mean there isnt structure or rules. My kids arent allowed to watch TV during "school" hours. Following your interests isnt the same as doing whatever you want :)
I dont structure what they learn or when, but they do that themselves by choice. My daughter is currently doing grade seven math by choice, setting up a regular schedule of getting it done by herself. She paints, draws, reads both non fiction and fiction, classics and fun stuff both. She reads newspapers, discusses her views on what she reads about with me, her dad and those friends of hers that can be persuaded to talk about things that matter. She can talk with adults and is interested in passing her knowledge on to smaller kids. I think its been a great experience for her!

[Chibi-Fallon]

My mom works with people who went to a school based on that idea. "Kids will learn when they want to" :yayah:
"Open School" they called it, and they've since changed tactics, but the kids still wear shirts that say "Oopn Skul."

Guess what, most of the people my mom works with can't do math very well, they can't spell very well, and they can't read very well.
But they did really like art, so they did that all day, everyday and that was just hunky-dory. Sadly life doesn't normally work out in a way that you can get away with that.

There probably are kids it can work for, very motivated ones. I know if I did it, I would have lots of art, social studies, some select sciences, reading, but no math and no spelling.

And it seems like a bad thing to set your kid up for later in life. I mean what work place is ever going to be like that?


"There is nothing like the texture of kids having contact with each other, making friends and relating to different adults in a school setting," said David Tokofsky, a longtime educator and member of the Los Angeles Unified School District Board of Education."

I'd have to agree with this after meeting various homeschoolers in college. They stand out like a sore thumb. And you just have to feel bad for them.
They miss a lot of pop culture type stuff, which frankly is important, especially socially. You basically have to sit then down for "I Love the 90's."
And... there really isn't a nice way to put this... a lot of them think they're real big wigs and look down on those with a *gasp* public education.
I've been asked if I was ever shot at or stabbed or if I was in a gang. Seriously. They often seemed surpised that people who weren't homeschooled can read or do basic math.

[Ceres]

And it seems like a bad thing to set your kid up for later in life. I mean what work place is ever going to be like that?

Why set your kid up to hate what they do every day for the rest of their lives? Better to set them up to be willing to work to do what they enjoy. A career can be made out of nearly every thing that people enjoy doing if they want it bad enough. I think its a sad thing to work from the age of four to get your child used to doing things they dislike all day so they will be willing to do it as adults. Its also important not to paint all homeschoolers with the same brush. A great many people homeschool to protect their children from the real world. Most unschoolers, however homeschool to teach their children about the real world not the school world.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Why set your kid up to hate what they do every day for the rest of their lives? Better to set them up to be willing to work to do what they enjoy. A career can be made out of nearly every thing that people enjoy doing if they want it bad enough. I think its a sad thing to work from the age of four to get your child used to doing things they dislike all day so they will be willing to do it as adults. Its also important not to paint all homeschoolers with the same brush. A great many people homeschool to protect their children from the real world. Most unschoolers, however homeschool to teach their children about the real world not the school world.

I didn't dislike school... I really liked it... :huh:

[Ceres]

I didn't dislike school... I really liked it... :huh:

What did you mean then about it setting them up for trouble later, int he workplace? :spaceman:

[Amethyst Rose]

I think she probably meant, and correct me if I'm wrong, Chibi, that once it comes to making a living, most jobs are structured 9-5 with specific tasks to perform at a specific time. School, imo, is meant to prepare you for the real world, which (perhaps unfortunately) is pretty rigid.

I, personally, wasn't thinking about the work place, however.... I was thinking about a college education, which public school also prepares you for. Working very hard, studying, taking tests, taking mandatory classes...some 3 hours long. I can't see how such a free learning environment can prepare children for that.

And then there's the whole socialization thing. I know that many homeschoolers do it in groups, or go on fieldtrips with other homeschoolers, etc. A lot don't have any other contact with other kids, though, and I do think it can hurt their social development.

I really don't have any experience to say for sure, however. I've only ever known one person who was homeschooled....and she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

[Shanti]

My eldest son was homeschooled without the 8am to 3pm thing and he is a manager in retail, working his crazy hours plus whenever his employees dont show or take time off and he is making a decent income I could only dream of!!

Also,
My SO works 1/2 second and 1/2 third shift!

My friends hubby works second shift and sometimes split shifts.
She works all differant daytime and evening hours and her days off are always differant!

I know none with a perfectly structured 9-5 job! I know they exist for some peole like the bank tellers and some office workers. But those are not the only kind of jobs people have!

I know a few on a first shift only job and they start work at like 5 am!!

[Amethyst Rose]

Well, yes, I realized there are all different times that people work at. What I was getting at is that there are very few jobs where you can just do what you want, when you want.

[Ceres]

I think she probably meant, and correct me if I'm wrong, Chibi, that once it comes to making a living, most jobs are structured 9-5 with specific tasks to perform at a specific time. School, imo, is meant to prepare you for the real world, which (perhaps unfortunately) is pretty rigid.

I, personally, wasn't thinking about the work place, however.... I was thinking about a college education, which public school also prepares you for. Working very hard, studying, taking tests, taking mandatory classes...some 3 hours long. I can't see how such a free learning environment can prepare children for that.

And then there's the whole socialization thing. I know that many homeschoolers do it in groups, or go on fieldtrips with other homeschoolers, etc. A lot don't have any other contact with other kids, though, and I do think it can hurt their social development.

I really don't have any experience to say for sure, however. I've only ever known one person who was homeschooled....and she's not the sharpest knife in the drawer.

And yet unschooled kids seem to adjust fine to both post secondary education and the working world. In fact, the Ivy League schools in America actively recruit them and have since the eighties when it was discovered that they not only were academically able, but tended to be more mature about setting their own study schedule.

Socialization is a huge question. I guess my argument to people asking about the socialization of my homeschooled kids is to ask what makes them think socialization in school is a better experience. It certainly isnt the real world - you are segregated by age and fratenization between people of different ages is actively discouraged by your peers. Originality in thought, dress or extracurricular activities is generally treated as suspect and measures are taken by the kids themselves to ensure conformity to the group consensus. For a culture so interested in maintaining freedom, it seems funny to approve of kids policing each other from any display of it.

I wonder why people tend to see kids as basically lazy? It seems cynical. Maybe its forcing academic tasks on them too soon and before they display an interest that makes them rebel by refusing to participate without being coersed by bribes in the form of rewards? Maybe I am cynical :lol: Its been my experience that given the freedom to persue their interests, they find a lot of things to be interested in.

[Valkie]

Socialization is a huge question. I guess my argument to people asking about the socialization of my homeschooled kids is to ask what makes them think socialization in school is a better experience. It certainly isnt the real world - you are segregated by age and fratenization between people of different ages is actively discouraged by your peers. Originality in thought, dress or extracurricular activities is generally treated as suspect and measures are taken by the kids themselves to ensure conformity to the group consensus. For a culture so interested in maintaining freedom, it seems funny to approve of kids policing each other from any display of it.*applause* Heck... maybe I was just that much of a loser in school. School sucks for socialization of kids who do not fit the local mold. You're lucky if you can find 1 or 2 people who you can relate to on the most basic level. The rest of the time you're being taunted, cast aside, or just trying to stay out of everyone's way... How the heck does that benifit 'socialization'. That is nothing like the real world.

Children, especially elementry kids, have a very vague sense of respect and almost none for kids of thier own age. Respect is something that you have to give adults because you'll get in trouble if you don't. With other kids, it's no holds barred.

I didn't have a "real" friend until I got into 6th grade, and that was only 1. From 7-10 grade I had the grand total of 3.... ya, great socialization for school. It wasn't until I got to an age where it was ok to hang out with people that are younger or older than you that I started making more friends.

I wonder why people tend to see kids as basically lazy? It seems cynical. Maybe its forcing academic tasks on them too soon and before they display an interest that makes them rebel by refusing to participate without being coersed by bribes in the form of rewards? Maybe I am cynical :lol: Its been my experience that given the freedom to persue their interests, they find a lot of things to be interested in.I don't think you're being cynical at all. All the time that most kids spend in 'extra socialization time' (ie. going to the mall, hanging out at the friends houses, talking on the phone) I spent learning things that I wanted to learn. I spent it studying people, reading psychology and medical books and in the woods.

I remember being in the 8th grade... I was reading King's Misery... hefty book, I think it's around 4-500 pages... anyways, the other kids thought that I was insane because I was reading such a big book without being forced to (but then again, at this point in time I had the reading comprehension level of someone in college). They couldn't understand why I would 'waste my time' on something that big! And do what instead? twiddle my thumbs because I had be sooo socially accepted?

My parents never tried to bribe me. My grades where my grades, weather it was an A or an F. It was my doing and I was the one who had to live with it even if it ment me having to take the course again.

If I had the choice, I would've gladly taken the "unsocialized" structure of home schooling or unschooling over what I had to deal with in school.

[Jolixte]

I'm sorry this is a bit off-topic, but what happens if/when a child surpasses his/her parents in a subject? How are the children taught then?

[Ceres]

I'm sorry this is a bit off-topic, but what happens if/when a child surpasses his/her parents in a subject? How are the children taught then?

This assumes that one must be taught things by someone else. A lot of learning comes from reading up on it and teaching yourself. In fact, in the UK, when you becoming a lawyer, its called "reading" the law because thats how you learn it. I learned to cook by myself through much trial and error (the real trial was for those stuck eating the results).

Certainly there are things that you need a person to teach you or show you and many of these things we pay others to teach us, homeschooled, public schooled or adults who are done school. My daughter has been learning to ride since she was 5 because it interested her. I still dont know how to saddle a horse let alone care for one to own it! I am actually a little scared of horses _inabox_ I pay someone to teach my daughter these things. She has directed her education in riding and horses herself, choosing the English over Western, searching for a school that shares her now developed philosophy of horse/rider dynamics and progressing at her own rate. She doesnt like riding competitively and I have actually taken criticism from other parents of riders for "wasting" the money on lessons on a child who doesnt want to compete! Same with Karate: I pay someone else to teach two of my kids because they are interested and I am not. They enjoy it and progress at their own rate through the belts because they want to put the effort into it.

My son has far surpased my rudimentary understanding of electronics all on his own, with a kit on electricity he got as a gift and his Dad's cast off electronics parts from work. He also understands how motors work from studying the illustrations in a book on them. I dont have a clue :lol: He wants it bad enough and so he persues it and I help him find opportunities to do so.

When my kids are high school age, they may decide to go to school. It will be their choice and even at 12 my daughter understands it wont be for a superior education, it will be because she decides this is the most effective way for her to play the "game" so she can work in a field she wants or perhaps have the post secondary education she wants.

[Jolixte]

This assumes that one must be taught things by someone else. A lot of learning comes from reading up on it and teaching yourself. In fact, in the UK, when you becoming a lawyer, its called "reading" the law because thats how you learn it. I learned to cook by myself through much trial and error (the real trial was for those stuck eating the results).

I'm teaching myself calculus at the moment so I know it is possible to do. I was just wondering because I learned things in school that my parents had no knowledge of, nor had I read about. Granted, I've also learned even more outside of school than in it.

[Ceres]

I've also learned even more outside of school than in it.


This was my own experience as well.

[eldora_avalon]

The socialization is about learning to work with people, to interact with different kinds of people. I have only encountered one person who was home schooled and he was not good at this. If you gave him something to do he was OK, but he didn't always listen, he did it his own way. Sometimes that works, sometimes not. Not sure if most home schooled kids are like this or not.

[Ceres]

The socialization is about learning to work with people, to interact with different kinds of people. I have only encountered one person who was home schooled and he was not good at this. If you gave him something to do he was OK, but he didn't always listen, he did it his own way. Sometimes that works, sometimes not. Not sure if most home schooled kids are like this or not.
I think homeschooled kids are a lot like any kids in that there are all kinds. Some like thorough step by step instructions and some prefer to glance at the directions, do it their own way and then refer to the instructions when they run into trouble. My husband regards instructions with this cavalier attitude :lol: but then he is a Maintenance Mechanic as well as a Machinist. I am more apt to trust in the wisdom of the instructions and see how it comes out, though this usually means I dont really understand how the thing I put together works and couldnt duplicate it on my own.

I often argue that because my children, having been unschooled have worked with many different people who are of different ages and social backgrounds that they are BETTER socialized in this manner. My daughter works out her schedule and what she will learn with her riding instructor - I dont. At Karate, my kids work with adults and kids, sometimes teaching those who are newer, sometimes being taught by those with more experience without regard for age. We do stuff with our homeschooling groups and the kids they interact with are of all different ages and often all the collective parents are on hand so they are interacting with them as well.

Some kids just arent very social, no matter where or how they are educated and I think its rather narrow to assume the bulk of socialization, for good or bad, goes on at school.

[Shanti]

I'm sorry this is a bit off-topic, but what happens if/when a child surpasses his/her parents in a subject? How are the children taught then?

This is an excellent question with an answer that worked for me!! And one I believe in totally.
My son is 25 now and the main thing I taught him is 'how' to learn and that learning never stops.

What I didnt know..I taught myself, with him!!
And from that I also taught him how to teach himself, which I feel is the most valuable lesson they can learn.
Once school is over and your out on your own, the learning doesn't end and you can continue to learn by teaching yourself.

When he asked questions, I seldom 'gave' answers, even when I knew the answers.
My response was...lets look it up. Lets 'find' the answer.
How is he going to find answers once he is on his own if he doesn't learn the skills to do it himself?

Together we both learned...and with a parent being open about the fact that just because we are adults, it doesn't mean we know everything..I feel it sets the example to question your world.

Heck a doc has a degree but that doesn't mean you should take his word right away concerning your health...you ask questions. You go off on your own and learn all you can about what he said. You empower yourself with your own knowledge! Then you can know what is the best health solution you want.

Your never past learning yourself and anyone can learn new on their own if they work at it..and thats the most important teaching I fell anyone can give.

[brymble]

blessings to any parent whose homeschooled kid really needs structure. mine - at least, my oldest who is "school-age" - are the exact opposite. i find with damie the best way to guarantee he won't learn something is to try to "teach" it. like reading! i was stressed out and under pressure from traditional school-teacher relatives, and i tried readers, worksheets, computer programs, and then finally decided, what the hell, school kids get weekends and summer vacations, we can give this one subject a break for awhile. and then...video games! he taught himself to read playing video games with text-based dialogue and instructions! right on schedule, too - for a homeschooler, at any rate. structure would probably be easier for me, though!

he's so far ahead in science i have to resist the temptation to hold him back. i'm afraid one night, during one of the first spring thunderstorms, i'll hear cries of "IT'S ALIVE!!! MAD! THEY CALLED ME MAD!!!!" coming from his bedroom. i worry he's going to try to build a nuclear bomb for his fifth grade science project, like the kid from Bloom County.

we're currently having a bit of trouble with socialization, because we're in a new area with no transportation, and having tough financial and family times, and people around here seem pretty hostile towards paganism/tarot cards/dreadlocks/parents with multiple facial piercings. but half an hour away is wonderful ithaca, and this: http://www.northernlightlearning.org/ where i'm planning on enrolling him in the spring. (it's full up now, although i'm looking into seeing if we can participate in some of the social activities or at least get a head-start networking with other parents.) there are a lot of homeschoolers here, and the school district people are great. the public schools - at least the high school, where my second cousin attends, seem really good, too, at least in terms of encouraging individuality and enjoyable learning.

my daughter may require more structured homeschooling, or do well in school, but it's kind of early to tell yet. the one certain thing about her is she is full of surprises.

as far as preparing for a job - who says my kid has to have a traditional job? preparing for a job was the worst thing i ever did. i should have been grooming myself for self-employment. with his independent spirit and creative ideas (not to mention talent with money, even at 8) he'll make a fine entrepeneur some day! in fact, many homeschoolers end up going into business for themselves, because they're used to the independence, self-motivation, dedication, and hard work that self-employment requires.

[mystyheart]

We have just put our three previously homeschooled children in public school, for various reasons including a diagnosis of autism.

The school administration has been very welcoming; however there were certain teachers we met on day 1 that seemed reticent. One actually seemed to assume that we were evangelicals who were trying to shelter our children from the world O_o????? My husband actually laughed out loud at that one.

After having a few days to interact with our wonderfully adjusted, socially inclusive and active children these same educators have done a complete turnaround.

The thing we have to remember is that each family, each individual, each and every motivation is sooooo different. We tend to label and decide so many things based on just our experiences and perceptions and we forget that there's a whole world out there that's going to differ from our tiny pin-point in the multi-verse.

JMHO ---
Blessings,

[lynn271]

The socialization is about learning to work with people, to interact with different kinds of people. I have only encountered one person who was home schooled and he was not good at this. If you gave him something to do he was OK, but he didn't always listen, he did it his own way. Sometimes that works, sometimes not. Not sure if most home schooled kids are like this or not.

No. They're individuals, every one of them unique like every other kid.

My public schooled stepkid learned far more useful social skills in a few months at her first job than she did in 15 years of public school (her mother sent her to preschool at 3, poor kid.) At work, you see, she had to interact and work with different kinds of people--college students, dropouts, parents, retired folks supplementing their pensions, married people, divorced people, immigrants with shaky English, et cetera, et cetera. At that time, at school, she was only ever around other teenage high school students.

[Amethyst Rose]

(her mother sent her to preschool at 3, poor kid.) .

What's wrong with starting play/preschool at 3? I plan on sending my son to playschool when he turns 3....I think any opportunity he gets to be with other kids is a good thing.

[Ceres]

There are some experts who are now saying perhaps putting kids in a preschool enviroment isnt always in the best interests of the child. Certainly some veteran mothers and grandmothers have always thought so. Some kids may enjoy it, but many just need their moms. My last child would have happily gone off to preschool - he was just a really extroverted happy go lucky kinda kid. He was actually quite surprised to hear he wasnt going to elementary school either. Apparently he thought he was even though his older siblings had never been.

As for preschool, I didnt feel his going was in his best interests and I certainly didnt think it was in the best interests of the other kids, nor the teachers for that matter :lol:

[lynn271]

What's wrong with starting play/preschool at 3? I plan on sending my son to playschool when he turns 3....I think any opportunity he gets to be with other kids is a good thing.

Are you planning to send him for 50 hours a week? My stepkid was in preschool/daycare Monday through Friday from about 8am to 6pm. I have no problem at all with part-time playschool if the kid enjoys it. When mine was 3 she went to one three afternoons a week and had a ball.

If human children were meant to spend most of their childhoods being just with other kids their own age, they'd be born in litters. Not that they should never spend time with other kids their own age, but it shouldn't be to the exclusion of socializing with people of all ages.

Edited to add: No, it wasn't economically necessary for my stepkid to spend 50 hours a week in preschool/daycare.

[Amethyst Rose]

Are you planning to send him for 50 hours a week?

Oh, no! I'd never do that. :) The play school here only goes 4 hours a week.... Tuesdays and Thursdays, two hour sessions.


If human children were meant to spend most of their childhoods being just with other kids their own age, they'd be born in litters. Not that they should never spend time with other kids their own age, but it shouldn't be to the exclusion of socializing with people of all ages.


Seeing as how my son is the *only* child in my entire family/friend circle, (and probably will remain so for at least another 5 years) the only interaction he has with other kids is two hours, once a week, when we go to our moms and tots group. So, that's why I want him to do playschool. :)