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DoktorSick
February 3rd, 2006, 06:20 AM
ok I have seen various post up here that they are christian witches.
I understand that from reading and few tv shows that witchcraft in
various forms is pretty liberal and accepting but being a former christian
and having read the bible from cover a few times.I know that tolerance
of other gods and other so called truths is not highly accepted to say the least.
I was just wondering how do you justify the witchcraft ideology with the
christian ideology?

AlleyCat
February 3rd, 2006, 07:24 AM
When Ive asked Christian witches and said doesnt the Bible say its a Neddy-No-No the most common response I get was:

"No the Bible originally said thout shalt not suffer a POISONER to live" not a witch, so therefore they can be witches..

Theres probably a lot of other points they can use to justify it but as Im not one thats the limit of my knowledge from the ones Ive spoken to

aislin_ryann
February 3rd, 2006, 10:31 AM
I have wondered myself the same thing. My hubby and I were talking about this the other night and he brought up a good point. Jesus said that the only thing that was required to be a Christian is the belief that he is God's Son and that he is the Saviour. He denounced most of the old Jewish laws in his teachings anyway. So as long as the Christian Witches do believe in Jesus and accept Him as their Saviour, the can be witches as well. Afterall, Witch is not always a religion.

If you disagree, that is cool, I would like to know some other people's opinions on this. It is just my hubby's thoughts on the subject.

PoisonIvy
February 3rd, 2006, 10:54 AM
When Jesus was on Earth as a mortal man,(if you believe that theory) did he not preform miracles or use magick?(whatever ya wanna call it.)

Through the power of his father,God,Jesus rose people from the dead,healed people with the laying on of his hands,and fed 5000 people with a loaf of bread and a fish. Now if that's not the greatest witch that has ever walked this Earth,then I don't know what is!

I believe in the God and I believe that he's given me my gifts of empathy and healing to help others. I'm not a freak about it though.
Unlike the bible thumpin' christians (no offense to anyone here),I don't believe that I am right and everyone else is wrong,I think that a piece of everything makes up the truth,and I do believe that He does have a feminine side as well.
I like to hear what others believe and why they believe it.

*I'll prolly go straight to Hell after saying all of this blasphemous stuff*:lol:

LostSheep
February 3rd, 2006, 11:37 AM
Well, for me at any rate, I see there as being a difference - quite a big diference a lot of the time - between what the Bible says, and what Jesus said - or at least, what we're told that Jesus said ... he was dead against the idea of institutionalised religion, for a start ... funny that, isn't it,. Anyway, although I'm not a witch, I don't have any problem having a belief in Jesus with believing in pagan ideas, as a lot of what Jesus's teaching was based on isn't really that different from pagan beliefs - independence of how we should be allowed to worship, toleration, etc - and one of his central ideas was that God - the spirit, whatever - is in everyone, and isn't just 'out there' somewhere.

And don't forget he treated women as equals too, which is rather different from what the Christian church usually does.

misschief
February 3rd, 2006, 11:56 AM
ok I have seen various post up here that they are christian witches.
I understand that from reading and few tv shows that witchcraft in
various forms is pretty liberal and accepting but being a former christian
and having read the bible from cover a few times.I know that tolerance
of other gods and other so called truths is not highly accepted to say the least.
I was just wondering how do you justify the witchcraft ideology with the
christian ideology?it depends on what kind of christian you were.... not all denominations are like you're saying, lots of them dont' see the bible as a direct command, more like a guide or recommendation. i personally know some christian clergy members who have no problem with it.

NiftyWings
February 3rd, 2006, 12:07 PM
Not all Christians accept the idea of the Bible being literal truth. They believe that a lot of the "laws" regarding other religions, the status and role of women, homosexuality, etc were included in the Bible because of cultural bias, not Divine communication.

RainInanna
February 3rd, 2006, 07:15 PM
There is an entire subforum here for Christian Witches, please feel free to read the many threads there to learn about their beliefs. The link is http://mysticwicks.com/forumdisplay.php?f=223. I know there are a couple threads that discuss this very question, so you can see a wide range of responses and practices here :)

Little Billy
February 3rd, 2006, 07:26 PM
When Ive asked Christian witches and said doesnt the Bible say its a Neddy-No-No the most common response I get was:

"No the Bible originally said thout shalt not suffer a POISONER to live" not a witch, so therefore they can be witches..

Theres probably a lot of other points they can use to justify it but as Im not one thats the limit of my knowledge from the ones Ive spoken to


I just looked in 3 different bibles, and it says "witch".

RainInanna
February 3rd, 2006, 08:50 PM
Yes, King James changed it to witch, but as AlleyCat pointed out it originally said poisoner. At the time witch meant poisoner, not Wiccan or neo-Pagan practitioner of folk magic.

Little Billy
February 3rd, 2006, 08:53 PM
Yes, King James changed it to witch, but as AlleyCat pointed out it originally said poisoner. At the time witch meant poisoner, not Wiccan or neo-Pagan practitioner of folk magic.

In which version did it say "poisoner"?

And I can't find any reference that desribes witches as poisoners.

In fact, Saul was chastised for going to a seer, to question the deceased/"taken up" Elijah.

RainInanna
February 3rd, 2006, 09:06 PM
Any version that existed prior to the late 1500's when King James changed it and wrote a book called Daemonologie to counter Reginald Scot's book explaining what the original word and meaning was.

http://www.hollowhill.com/fun/halloween/witch-bible.htm
http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/hunters/james.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_dict.htm
http://members.aol.com/mpwright9/james.html
http://realm.empirenac.com/Bible1.html

As the first site points out "In other words, if people hadn't been so afraid of King James and mindful of his vivid imagination regarding Witches, that Bible passage might have been correctly translated. In that case, we might never have to deal with such preposterous prejudice in the Bible".

As has been mentioned in this thread, many do not consider the Bible to be the ultimate one and only true divine authority on Christianity. Many recognize that it was written by people, not god, and was used by many to gain power and prosperity.

Little Billy
February 3rd, 2006, 09:14 PM
Any version that existed prior to the late 1500's when King James changed it and wrote a book called Daemonologie to counter Reginald Scot's book explaining what the original word and meaning was.

http://www.hollowhill.com/fun/halloween/witch-bible.htm
http://www.shanmonster.com/witch/hunters/james.html
http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_dict.htm
http://members.aol.com/mpwright9/james.html
http://realm.empirenac.com/Bible1.html

As the first site points out "In other words, if people hadn't been so afraid of King James and mindful of his vivid imagination regarding Witches, that Bible passage might have been correctly translated. In that case, we might never have to deal with such preposterous prejudice in the Bible".

As has been mentioned in this thread, many do not consider the Bible to be the ultimate one and only true divine authority on Christianity. Many recognize that it was written by people, not god, and was used by many to gain power and prosperity.

Actually, the best way to settle this is to go to source material.

Lemme look at the Torah.

Anubis
February 3rd, 2006, 09:52 PM
ok... I'm confused... (I have blocked most of the bible from my mind.. so humor me here...)... I know some Christian Wiccans... which will spout the ten commandments in a heart beat while dusting off their goddess figurines.. now wasn't there something in the ten commandments about not having "false gods".. and "idols".. or am I confusing this with something else?.. because that's where I don't understand the christian WICCAN thing... Now I can understand a christian WITCH.. because anyone can be a witch... but the other is where my brain cell turns to jello.. lol.. HELP! (and no.. don't bring cool whip for the jello)

Rudas Starblaze
February 3rd, 2006, 10:04 PM
now wasn't there something in the ten commandments about not having "false gods".. and "idols".. or am I confusing this with something else?..

actually the ten commandments say "thou shall have no other gods before me" which means means just that. it dosent say there are no other gods or goddesses, it just means dont forget who the bad ass of all bad asses is and to put him first, the rest second.




because that's where I don't understand the christian WICCAN thing... Now I can understand a christian WITCH.. because anyone can be a witch... but the other is where my brain cell turns to jello.. lol.. HELP! (and no.. don't bring cool whip for the jello)

i agree totally!

LostSheep
February 4th, 2006, 04:42 AM
ok... I'm confused... (I have blocked most of the bible from my mind.. so humor me here...)... I know some Christian Wiccans... which will spout the ten commandments in a heart beat while dusting off their goddess figurines.. now wasn't there something in the ten commandments about not having "false gods".. and "idols".. or am I confusing this with something else?.. because that's where I don't understand the christian WICCAN thing... Now I can understand a christian WITCH.. because anyone can be a witch... but the other is where my brain cell turns to jello.. lol.. HELP! (and no.. don't bring cool whip for the jello)
one way of looking at it, maybe, is depending on whether you see the gods & goddesses as individual beings, or as representations of the One, the Spirit, the Universal Life Force, call it what you like; put into a form comprehensible to ordinary folks. Looked at that way, maybe it's not too different from the Catholic way of venerating relics of saints, statues of the Virgin Mary etc, not worshipping them as gods in themselves, but as symbols of God/whatever, in a form comprehensible to ordinary people.

I'm not a Wiccan or a witch, but I do think of myself as a pagan who also believes in Jesus, and that's the way that I think I'm coming to think of it. Sorry if no one else agrees with me, but that's just the way I look at it.

:)

RhiannynWildseed
February 4th, 2006, 05:01 AM
Actually, the best way to settle this is to go to source material.

Lemme look at the Torah.

Here's an interesting link with a whole article on that phrase.

http://www.draknet.com/proteus/Suffer.htm

I do recall also reading that the Greek version used a word that we currently derive the word "pharmacy" from, but I can't find my resource on that at the moment.

LostSheep
February 4th, 2006, 05:24 AM
there's some stuff about it here:
http://paganwiccan.about.com/od/sufferawitch/

LadyCelt
February 5th, 2006, 06:13 AM
Moses, Solomon, Jesus, the prophets etc all seem to me to have been witches, or something like that. very powerful ones too. I don't liek organized chriistianity with the propaganada and things, but I do have high respect and faith for Jesus. i am feeling less and less sin exists andthat is why he died. my fiancee says the bible says sin is to miss the mark and, that's a lot of stuff.

I also feel each deity is an aspect of one deity that's male and female. I feel this deity may have created other deities, but really are still aspects. If a person puts churchabove spirituality in the organized sense, its an idol above the lord the same with the pope or a bishop. Jesus also spoke of not being able to serve the lord and money so, for some, money is their god.

misschief
February 6th, 2006, 04:10 PM
no disrespect to this discussion you guys have going on here..... but REALLY.. come on.

what's a witch first of all?

i bet you all have a different definition.

centuries ago... the witches were the people who made the medicines, teas, ... all healing things, they were thought to make crops grow, etc. the term "witch" that you see in the bible pretty much refers to a heretic. think about it... without "witches" they wouldn't have had any cures for anything... stop taking everything so literally for the sake of debate. if "witches" were so anti-christian... why would several... actually MOST, of the clergy i know personally not have a problem with it? almost all of them are baptist, if anyone would have a beef with it they would. so...... yeah. arguing for the sake of debate isn't going to change the fact that "witch" has had many entirely different meanings over the ages and the word being in text (text that has been changed many many many times over the years) really doesn't mean alot.

Meabh23
February 6th, 2006, 05:06 PM
Good question.

The word is one of those that means something different to everyone.

Akhkharu Asgard
February 8th, 2006, 01:57 PM
Say goodbye to your justification. Christianity does not want you:

"And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:

Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.

And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."

-Micah 5: 12-15

LostSheep
February 8th, 2006, 02:49 PM
was the word witchcraft in the original? We'd only know if we had it in the original language (Hebrew? Aramaic?) in front of us... which is always the problem with the Bible, every word we see in it is a translation, and translated according to what meaning that particular writer wanted to slant it towards. ...

(and the connection between the old testament and Christianity is another matter entirely, ne-est'ce pas?)

Akhkharu Asgard
February 8th, 2006, 02:54 PM
was the word witchcraft in the original? We'd only know if we had it in the original language (Hebrew? Aramaic?) in front of us... which is always the problem with the Bible, every word we see in it is a translation, and translated according to what meaning that particular writer wanted to slant it towards. ...

(and the connection between the old testament and Christianity is another matter entirely, ne-est'ce pas?)

We could sit here arguing whether the word "witchcraft" was in the original, but people whould be ignorant to completely miss the point. We all know what was meant, no matter the word.

Well, I'm sure Yahweh still thinks this is pretty important, even if it isn't in the New Testement (Revelation anyone?).

LostSheep
February 8th, 2006, 03:19 PM
oh yeah, Revelation ... now that's fun.

(Personally i only take notice of the Apocrypha, anyway.)

Akhkharu Asgard
February 8th, 2006, 03:27 PM
oh yeah, Revelation ... now that's fun.

(Personally i only take notice of the Apocrypha, anyway.)

Darn right it's going to be fun! I want a front row seat for that stuff.
(The Apocrypha is pretty cool too)

LostSheep
February 8th, 2006, 03:35 PM
Darn right it's going to be fun! I want a front row seat for that stuff.

well, we know when it's gonna be don't we?

Hope you've got a table booked for Decemeber 21, 2012.

Akhkharu Asgard
February 8th, 2006, 07:13 PM
well, we know when it's gonna be don't we?

Hope you've got a table booked for Decemeber 21, 2012.

You *know* I do!!! I'll be sitting on my front porch with a shotgun, picking off invading Mayans left and right.

Little Billy
February 8th, 2006, 08:20 PM
was the word witchcraft in the original? We'd only know if we had it in the original language (Hebrew? Aramaic?) in front of us... which is always the problem with the Bible, every word we see in it is a translation, and translated according to what meaning that particular writer wanted to slant it towards. ...

(and the connection between the old testament and Christianity is another matter entirely, ne-est'ce pas?)


1. Actually, if you are saying it isn't, then it is up to you to prove that "Soothsayer" doesn't mean "Soothsayer".

2. Nope. "I have come not to destroy the law..."

Little Billy
February 8th, 2006, 08:21 PM
oh yeah, Revelation ... now that's fun.

(Personally i only take notice of the Apocrypha, anyway.)


Revelation is a hoot. I am very glad that the council of Nicea included it.

St John "Anything for a Laugh" of Patmos is the best writer in the whole book.

Rudas Starblaze
February 8th, 2006, 09:51 PM
Say goodbye to your justification. Christianity does not want you:

"And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thine hand; and thou shalt have no more soothsayers:

Thy graven images also will I cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee; and thou shalt no more worship the work of thine hands.

And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee: so will I destroy thy cities.

And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."

-Micah 5: 12-15

actually after reading that entire chapter in the king james version, the tanakh, the new international version and the new king james version (cause i like to get the whole story). it seems that its refered to the enemies of isreal. not to eveyone in general. in days of old, leaders used sorcerers (or what not) to aid them in battle situations. so in my opinion, it means that as long a witchcraft is not being used against God's laws (so to speak) then its acceptable. as in using the craft to heal someone. it does say specifically in the bible to be a good samaritian. using the craft to help people in a good way isnt a crime against God unless a person takes the glory for themselves or gives it to another diety according to christians.

Little Billy
February 8th, 2006, 10:00 PM
actually after reading that entire chapter in the king james version, the tanakh, the new international version and the new king james version (cause i like to get the whole story). it seems that its refered to the enemies of isreal. not to eveyone in general.


Let's see some scriptural backup for this?

Rudas Starblaze
February 8th, 2006, 10:11 PM
Let's see some scriptural backup for this?

Micah 5

Little Billy
February 8th, 2006, 10:17 PM
Micah 5

I see. Nice work.

However, that doesn't say that they are okay in general.

Off topic, you have to LOVE the language of the Bible: "15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."

RAH! Makes you want to pillage a small town, doesn't it?

LB,
Thinks God was listening to Wagner again.

Rudas Starblaze
February 8th, 2006, 10:22 PM
I see. Nice work.

However, that doesn't say that they are okay in general.

Off topic, you have to LOVE the language of the Bible: "15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."

RAH! Makes you want to pillage a small town, doesn't it?

LB,
Thinks God was listening to Wagner again.


LMAO! hell yeah bro! so many towns so little time!:lol:

Little Billy
February 8th, 2006, 10:26 PM
LMAO! hell yeah bro! so many towns so little time!:lol:

Or Deuteronomy 29:20:
"The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven."

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWW!

Now, THAT'S the way a PROPER mountain diety talks!

Meabh23
February 10th, 2006, 07:18 AM
Or Deuteronomy 29:20:
"The LORD will never be willing to forgive him; his wrath and zeal will burn against that man. All the curses written in this book will fall upon him, and the LORD will blot out his name from under heaven."

YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWW!

Now, THAT'S the way a PROPER mountain diety talks!


Sounds like a third rate mountain deity to me. Now, Himalayan deities. They are the truly entertaining ones.

Simply Puzzled
February 11th, 2006, 07:31 PM
I see. Nice work.

However, that doesn't say that they are okay in general.

Off topic, you have to LOVE the language of the Bible: "15 And I will execute vengeance in anger and fury upon the heathen, such as they have not heard."

RAH! Makes you want to pillage a small town, doesn't it?

LB,
Thinks God was listening to Wagner again.

The discussion is quite clearly over Christ (Christianity), and yet the bulk of comments have been directed at the words of the god YVHV Eloheem. This seems to confuse the topic. People in this culture are so used to Christianity being one thing that they are incapable of looking at it any other way. Let me propose an alternate model of thinking:

In the beginning were the gods, and the gods created the world. Together they made animal, plant, the moon, the sun, the sea, and man and women. Then one particular god decided that he should create his own man to watch over his garden. He endevored to keep him ignorant of that which might make the man capable of being fully human, the knowledge of good and evil. But, despite the gods will, the might serpent was able to free man from the ignorance. Enraged, the god cast the man and women from the garden, denying them eternal life. He gave them rules they could never possible keep in order to justify his decision. For example, he kept them ignorant of witchcraft so that they might never learn the deepest secrets of the universe, that they might become as powerful as he.

Then, one day, another god realized the terrible things that this god was doing. He realized the floods he unleashed. He released the cities to destroyed, the people he killed. He relized that these people were being denied eternal life. He went to the god, born as man, and said "here I am. I am a perfect sacrifice so that never again will you be able to enslave them. Never again will you be able to deny them eternal life because they do not meet your standards. Never again will they burn lambs in your honor." "For without sacrifice." he said "you said there can be no forgiveness of sin. While here I am. I am the perfect sacrifice for these people." But before he went, he taught them many things. He taught them to pray to gods far more good and just than their god. He taught them to heal the sick. To feed the hungry. To cast out demons. He taught them to speak in foreign languages. All these things he taught so that they might be free of their creator. But these things were forgotten. Their creator still held sway, and his true message was lost, except among those who carry on the inner teachings of the Christos.

Do I believe this story? No. Have I heard it before? Yes. Is it just as valid an interpretation of the Bible as what Baptists are taught in Sunday School? Absolutely.

BlackMagicalCat
February 11th, 2006, 09:42 PM
Well,we all know the bible condemns witchcraft of all types.Most of the church world follows suit in thier condemnation as well.

Then every sunday,many go to thier churches and light candles and burn incense and put thier seed money into the offering,so God will give them the blessings he promised them (car,job,ect),Give and it shall be given unto you,prove me now and see if I will not pour you out a blessing,when you pay your tithes.They are told to speak the thing and it will come to pass,because our words mean something,and if we believe,mountains can be moved.

Revelations speaks about candles in heaven representing the churches,and incense being mixed with the prayers of the saints.
And witches light candles for those who are in need.

Then there is the belly spell.

Items needed are,temple dust,an alter,an earthen bowl,holy water.

Numbers 5 :17

And then the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel,and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle,and put it into the water,,

And then say the chant,,
And mix it up,and make the woman to drink it.what woman?The one who is suspected by her husband of being unfaithfull to him.
(sorry women,there isnt a spell for you if you feel like your husband has been unfaithfull to you,at least not in the bible)

Well,then she drinks it,and if she has been unfaithfull ,her belly will swell and her thigh will rot.I know that sounds awfull.,,,,Baby?,,,What about the baby who may be growing inside the womans womb?,,Well,,,,I dont know,,we cant harm the baby because,well,its not a fetus,its a child,,,and the child had nothing to do with this unfaithfull act of adultery.
----------------------------------------

Well,then there is the SHE Bear curse,,,I know the bible says not to curse anyone,but a prophet in the old testament got mad at some teenagers who were making fun of him,and they were calling him,,,Thou Bald Head,,,
Now,,I know that is blashemy in its worse form,,,so the prophet turned and cursed the children and 2 she bears came out of the woods and ripped the children to shreads.Hey,they had it coming Im sure.

Well,then what about the woman with the moon under her feet,and a crown of twelve stars on her head?(Revelation 12:1)This sounds like a Goddess,or perhaps its Mary,now that the catholics got hold of the bible and changed it to thier liking,,,after all,,we sure cant have a woman in heaven who we can worship as God,because we dont need woman getting to high minded and thinking they can tell a man what to do.

Yes I know the bible says there is a woman who is a tree of life to those who lay hold on her,and she loves them who love her,and she pours out her spirit to those who love her,and she laughs at the judgment of the wicked,because they refused her instruction and despised her reproof.Yes she does crown us with a crown of glory and grace,and all her ways are peace,and she was with God in the begining of the creation,as one brought up with him.

But the same ones who swear by every word as absolutly true without error,will say,,,,John,,you are seeing a whole lot that just isnt there,and the she actually means ,,,IT,,sorta like when you call your car a she,,you dont really mean SHE,but IT.

But it says SHE,not IT.And your car cant love you or pour out her spirit unto you.Shall we change all the verses that call God a He into an IT?
I think Not.

---------------------------------------
The bible says the heavens hearkened unto the voice of a man,who commanded the sun to stand still in the dial of Ahaz,and the sun stood still,while the enemys of Israel were destroyed.

Then there are the four angels of the four winds of heaven in the book of Revelation(the opening of the four Quarters)North South East and West.They were commanded to stop the four winds of the earth from blowing.Have the gods of the pagans and witches been turned into angels and saints?Does anyone remember the name Brigid?

My conclusion is,the bible is full of magic and witchcraft practices ,in word as well as in ritual.Both on earth and in heaven,with candle sticks in Revelation,to censors and cups and brass serpents in solomons Temple.God gave very detailed instructions on how he wanted the tent of the Tabernacle and the Ark,with the mercy seat,,how he wanted it built.
It was patterned after the heavens the New Testament says.

Let US create man in OUR image,so male and female created he them,,bible

I personally have found love and kindness here among the witches and pagans who dwell here,more than in most churches I have been too.
And God is love,and a tree is known by the fruit that it bears.

I know not all are loving here,and not all churches are bad,there are good and bad in both camps.God knows who belongs to him,and who does not,because he knows the heart of men.

The bible condemns killing too,but then commands are given to kill witches,adulterers,and many others.

Rudas Starblaze
February 11th, 2006, 10:29 PM
The bible condemns killing too,but then commands are given to kill witches,adulterers,and many others.


Exodus 20:13

thou shall not murder.


theres a big difference between murder and killing. murder is killing your own kind with out religious or moral reason. most people confuse killing and murder and thats where they get the idea that hunters and people who kill for food reasons are bad. in which case they are not bad, not by any means.

Akhkharu Asgard
February 11th, 2006, 11:04 PM
actually after reading that entire chapter in the king james version, the tanakh, the new international version and the new king james version (cause i like to get the whole story). it seems that its refered to the enemies of isreal. not to eveyone in general. in days of old, leaders used sorcerers (or what not) to aid them in battle situations. so in my opinion, it means that as long a witchcraft is not being used against God's laws (so to speak) then its acceptable. as in using the craft to heal someone. it does say specifically in the bible to be a good samaritian. using the craft to help people in a good way isnt a crime against God unless a person takes the glory for themselves or gives it to another diety according to christians.

Foiled again!

Rudas Starblaze
February 11th, 2006, 11:27 PM
Foiled again!


lol theres always more to it when it comes to the bible. i find the verses before and after any verse to be just as important as the verse being said. ive even nailed preachers and preists! infact ive been waiting for over ten years for a reply from three different ones. (they used the old king james version of the bible and i think it said "replentish" the earth in Genesis and i asked "then does that mean there was something here before? did God create and then destroy before what is said in our bible?" they said "we would have to check in on it and get back with you"....... yep, ten years and still waiting i am!):lol: ofcourse we all know that the king james version is not close to being exact so i have since then discounted it as a good version..pretty to read, but not accurate. i have four different versions of the holy bible and soon to have the latest version (and cd rom with extended explanations) which from what ive heard is the hardest to understand as it is the direct translations from hebrew and greek.

Akhkharu Asgard
February 12th, 2006, 02:10 PM
lol theres always more to it when it comes to the bible. i find the verses before and after any verse to be just as important as the verse being said. ive even nailed preachers and preists! infact ive been waiting for over ten years for a reply from three different ones. (they used the old king james version of the bible and i think it said "replentish" the earth in Genesis and i asked "then does that mean there was something here before? did God create and then destroy before what is said in our bible?" they said "we would have to check in on it and get back with you"....... yep, ten years and still waiting i am!):lol: ofcourse we all know that the king james version is not close to being exact so i have since then discounted it as a good version..pretty to read, but not accurate. i have four different versions of the holy bible and soon to have the latest version (and cd rom with extended explanations) which from what ive heard is the hardest to understand as it is the direct translations from hebrew and greek.

I have to say, that part you mentioned about "replentish" reminded me of the atory "The Magician's Nephew" (the prequel to The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe) where to woman who will become to White Witch destroys a world and then it's recreated by Aslan into Narnia. But hey, there seems to be a lot of, not really foreshadowing (because it's the past, but whatever the opposite is) that there was stuff going on before "Genesis."

I enjoy talking about the Bible to people and am always happy to meet someone who knows more about it than me (not a facade, too many Christians I have met walk around "acting" like they know it). You rock dude!

LordHelmet
February 12th, 2006, 04:08 PM
EXO 15:3 The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
ROM 15:33 Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
Old to New?

PSA 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
JER 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
The nice God was there in the Old to?

JOH 10:30 I and my Father are one.
JOH 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
Hmmm...

Try this on for size, you have two Kingdoms, Isreal, (Children of El [Elohim]) and Judea (children of JHVH). Suppose that YHVH and Elohim are seperate charecters. Usualy in the Old testament when there's a contradiction, Elohim does whats right with unwavering maturity and patience, and YHVH gets pissed at everything and throws a tantrum.

JHVH claims "I am that I am", which can be 'because' or 'whoever' I am. The letters of the name imply, symbolicaly, everything. What was Satan Cast down for? Thinking he was God, or better than God, right? Hmmm...

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_meritt/bible-contradictions.html

BlackMagicalCat
February 12th, 2006, 05:42 PM
Another thought,,,,Some pagan Goddess are the daughters of other Goddess,
The idea that a God or Goddess is born,predates the birth of Christ.
God getting together with Mary somehow,and Mary giving birth to Christ,who claimed to be equal to God,and recieved worship as God.

Then there is the story about the ,,Sons of God who saw the daughters of men,that they were fair,and sons were born unto them.

Why is this even in the bible when we all know that men finding woman and having babies is no big deal.Unless the Sons of God were not men.
Genisis 6:1-5

Verse 4 There were giants in the earth in those days,and also after that,when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men,and they bare children to them,the same became mighty men which were of old,men of renown.

So,if you look at this verse,something about it is not clear,,,

Who were the sons of God?
Who else was around besides the sons of God?
Who were the giants,and where did they come from?
Why when the sons of God had sex with the daughters of men,did it produce mighty men of renown?

My point is that the church world has everything all figured out and in a nice neat little package,a package that doesnt include anyone else but thier own followers,and if you dont follow thier teaching,you are not included in thier little kingdom.But they leave behind a string of questions that remain unanswered,like,, who is the woman in the first 8 chapters of proverbs who is a tree of life to those who lay hold on her.And how can she pour out her spirit unto us?

And why is it okay for the wise men who followed a star to the birth place of Christ,because they saw his star in the east,yet pagans and witches are not allowed to even consider astrology without being called satanic?

And then the apostles casting lots to find out who God wanted to replace Judas?Judas is the apostle who betrayed Christ,and went and killed himself.
Doesnt casting lots sound sorta witchy?Like Runes?

Why didnt they just ask God directly?Since they were so close to him anyway,and heard his voice regularly.Why cast lots?
Why entrust such an important position to someone by casting lots?

Well,what do I know.

LordHelmet
February 13th, 2006, 04:33 AM
The babe in Proverbs, that's Ashera. She was YHVHs consort before the reformation of Josiah, she embodied wisdom and understanding. Her name is translated for what she represents.

KJV is actualy one of the better translations I've ever seen, for it's time it's a real accomplishment. However religious views, not being able to change the words on paper, simply twist, and over time change, the meaning. Now I'm not saying that it wasn't seriously lost in preconception, but following translations are generaly just a partial language and preconception upgrade.

If you want a couple good translations... They're available in their completeness, online, like all the rest, on www.biblegateway.com

Amplified Bible : The Amplified translation is the single best translation I know of. It is literal and it flows. Granted a quarter of it is in paranthesis, but it still flows better than any other litteral translation. It flows like it was written this year, not 150 years ago and revised. Furthermore I have yet to find any real indescrepincies in it. As much as it's a work of art it's more a work of objectivity and I assume extremly painstaking research and editing.

The Message : This Flows like the Amazon, and it's entirely translated from original, KJV doesn't have any mark on it that I've seen. It is not however a literal translation. It is paraphrased. In spite of this I have tested so many translations in various places (mostly new testament) and I always end up thinking that what was realy meant is portrayed in this translation. In many places you can notice that the way it flows is much like how the passage was written, but you don't notice it in a litteral translation. For instance Acts is written a lot like Paul Bunyan. I didn't notice this until I read some of it in the Message, but now I look at Acts in a normal translation and I see it. With Pauls letters I didn't really notice the informal way they're written, until I read it in the Message. I highly recomend this translation for reading a chapter or more. If you want to check a specific verse and other verses around it, especialy if your contesting it, this isn't the translation This translation is paraphrased, that means the guy who wrote it did so in his own words. All in all though it's beautiful.

The worst translation Iv'e come accross is the NKJV with NIV being a good runner up. However I haven't tried a good portion of the list and I'm sure someone has maneged to screw it up worse.