assisted reincarnation...

[mato]

A series topic about some heavy stuff including freedom of religious expression freedom of choice in a society which over values life freedom to decide what you do and what is more basic than the choice between life and death?

What are your thoughts on the choice to die? If one is too sick to preform this task him/her self shouldnt they be assisted as their final wish? Let's take the easy to defend case of a terminal cancer patient for whom all methods of destroying the disease have failed, they will die a particularly painful death and will be on all sorts of medications for the rest of their life, bed ridden and completely dependent on others. So long as they are in a rational (relatively, I mean come on when your on your death bed let's see how rational you are, however you should still retain enough common sense to choose to live or die) state of mind and are aware of all the options shouldnt they have a choice to die quickly and easily instead of fighting a battle that they could never win?
On the flip side take the distressed teenager who just got dumped the night before the prom... Is assisted suicide going to adversly effect all of society into a state of apathy towards life, or maybe increase our reverance for life?

I mentioned religion, in some religions (shinto comes to mind) a ritual suicide is done when one has commited an unforgivible act against another or your family, it was a way to save face, both theirs and their family/religions. Yet these acts are outlawed in the US because of the choice to take ones own life. Now this is (to me) a transgression on everyones most basic human rights. While to others the allowance of such acts goes against their ideals of human rights... I would like opinions ideas and what the hell a conversation about this if at all possible.

My views, it is one of those relics from the old guard who has as yet to realise that he is outdated and turn in his side arm (the laws against the act not the act itself), forced/harshly suggested by imperialistic religious/governmental system(s). There is nothing wrong with it (so long as it is done moraly and humanly) and infact bears on freedom and its ideals as a whole.(IMO)

Please thoughts opinions considerations... all are welcome.

[Epona44]

People come into lives to experience certain things, depending on where on the road they begin.

When a person takes their own life and there are lessons yet unlearned, they have to come back to learn those lessons or experience those states of being.

When an old person ends their own life in order to end their pain -- and that's basically why anyone ends their life -- they fall short of months or years of an experience they were intended to have.

It could have been the kindness of a nurse, a loved one, or it could have been the experience of a long and slow death.

Because pain is such a terrible experience, we will do anything to avoid it, and there are two lessons.

Pain and avoidance.

[Myst]

That's a good point, but what if the person is meant to contemplate or even commit suicide? What if their lesson or goal in this life is to kill themself? It's not likely, but it is possible.

For instance my cousin who tried to kill himself and has since been in a coma. Maybe his lesson was to try, fail, and live the rest of his life half comatose. Who knows?

It certainly is a hard question to answer anyway.

[Epona44]

I was interrupted when posting my last message for onion pizza and soup, sorry. :lol:

Suicide can deprive a person of time they need for certain experiences.

I think because of the number of incarnations we have, we probably experience many types of death.

Including suicide.

Think about it. :eyebrow:

People can commit suicide accidentally, meaning they wanted to be found and helped, but no help came, or came too late. For each person in that relationship, the failed helper and the cryer-for-help-who-went-too-far, there is learning.

What does a soul experience after a suicide resulting from depression? Probably more depression.

What about say, ritual suicide, as in some cultures? Relief? Who can say, the responsibility is less on the suicide than on the society.

Suicide to end pain? I think that probably depends on whether the sick person is able to understand what they are doing. A person who is conscious of this may simply see no more reason for the pain. Thus the modern quality of life question.

A caregiver who has discussed the idea with the sick person when they were "of sound mind" and then participates? I think whatever the intention, that's a karmic bond.

Then there's the stupid suicide. The drunk or impaired driver with a death wish. They miss out on a whole lifetime of experience. I think they come back and do it over until they get it right.

I think there are accidents. Life is a mix of things we plan and things we don't.

[mato]

There are things left to learn that will go unlearned in this incarnation, even in natural death, but what if suicide is a lesson in and of itself? Should the government and well meaning individuals interfere with the souls growth, even in such desputed practices as suicide? Suicide in a yoga meditation (through starvation were the individual if lucky dies in the lotus position) is done to achieve wisdom of some sort, does the government have the right to lock those individuals who practice it up medicate them beyond all resonable ideas of medication theorpy (as is done in mental hospitles to control the patients when they pose a threat to themselves or others, despite the fact that chemical restraints are generally considered worse than physical) and try to get them to break their vows (or whatever) in forgoing all meditation.

Suicide as a means of protest... Freedom of speech (through action)?

[Epona44]

Henry David Thoreau once said, and I paraphase:

"If I knew for certain that a man was coming to my house with the conscious intent of doing me good ... I would run for my life."

[mato]

Originally posted by Epona44
Henry David Thoreau once said, and I paraphase:

"If I knew for certain that a man was coming to my house with the conscious intent of doing me good ... I would run for my life."

:lol: so true, so true...

[Sequoia]

I, personally, believe a lot in the idea that everyone has a destiny of some sort. A goal, if you like, for each life and for their overall soulifetime.

As far as that goes, I think death could be something anywhere from "I have comletely disgraced my life, and I need a way to regain that honour and start over." to "(god) ok now, I need to get him to panama to build that canal. . . . YES! he's in panama. . . -_-; oh crap he just got killed by malaria. Welp, time to try again!" to "I've figured out everything I can from this life" to "ok I'm gonna live a short, tortured life, because I'm learning the nasty painful lessons of love and death and devotion and family beyond time. . . and appearantly it's not time to fufill my destiny yet. . . so I"ll just stall for time :cutie: "

I think there are as many reasons for living as there are souls that have lived. And we'd be fools to try to understand them all!

And each soul has probably scuzzicided once. Perhaps more. It woudl depend where they lived, what they did in life, how many lives they did this, etc etc hehe

But no, I don't think assisted suicide should be outlawed. Or suicide in general. I think those laws are more for the "victim's" families than the people themselves. Families don't usually want to let go. They'll cling reguardless of the condition their family member is in. And then they get angry once they DO die.

Give people a little dignity, you know? I'd rather die, KNOWING I had a terminal disease, and still looking happy and healthy, than dying three months later, decrepid, decayed, hideous, and frightening to children or family. If I'm gonna die anyway, let me be remembered as a happy, full-of-life person, not some sickly young woman on her deathbed!

(although honestly knowing me, if I had a husband and children, I would probably choose to live as long as I could, as to be with them.)

[nehelia]

there are too many people in this world for suicide to be considered illegal, immoral, etc.

i understand your ideas/reasonings, Epona, but part of the human experience is making our own choices and living with them. the experience of suicide may be exactly what someone needs to prod them into more active realization of their destiny in another life. . .

ive never put much stake in the idea that you relive lessons you failed to learn in the last life. i feel that its true, but that in many cases it wasnt important to learn the lesson the first time around, but to have the experience of the repeated lesson. when it comes to spiritual growth, the average human is generally rather slow at it anyway, and having to repeat a lesson often makes the lightbulb go off, to be colloquial and abstract

in some cases the act of ritual suicide is a very important formative experience for the people involved with it. i do think that thought-out, well-intentioned suicide definitely brings people face to face with both the sanctity of life and its inevitable end. commercialization of suicide (euthanasia centers, for example) would probably detract from the heightened awareness of life as the constant presence would desensitize the people around it. the sacredness of death must always be addressed in some form by a suicide for it to be "beneficial" in any sort of way.

and, in the specific cancer patient example, its my personal opinion that the people who were meant to live through the pain would not consider suicide, and the people for whom the experience would be unnecessary would consider suicide. in my personal case, ill be damned if i spend more than a month lying around when there's an afterlife i could be running around in.

[Epona44]

I sounds as though you agree to disagree, or agree in part. That's why this forum is so useful.

I stick to the assumption that it's sometimes necessary to repeat situations or relationships ...

But there's a lot of food for thought here.