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Valnorran
February 16th, 2006, 11:25 AM
I'm having some problems with my 12 year old son and was hoping I could get some different perspectives from you guys. I have absolutely no idea how to solve the problem and am utterly at my wit's end.

He has Tourett's syndrom, was diagnosed when he was nine, and had Obssessive/Compulsive and ADD thrown in, too. He'll be thirteen in April. I've lost track of all the meds we've tried. Three days ago we stopped giving him meds entirely as they weren't really solving anything, and at least one seems to be making his nervous ticcs worse. Ever since Monday (I'm writing this on Thursday, 2/16, 9:35 AM) he's been obstinate to the point that he almost appears delusional. For example, last night we told him to take his bath. He'd respond "I am" while sitting on the sofa and not moving. We finally had to physically pull him off the sofa while telling him to take his bath. All the while he insisted he was taking his bath and looked at us as if we were crazy. It blew up into a huge fight that went on for an hour or so. My wife says he's been doing this since Monday. My work schedule has shifted so that Mondays, Tuesdays, and Thursdays I don't get home until about 8:30 PM, so last night's instance was the first I personally saw. My wife's been dealing with it by herself. Now, this morning, she calls me at work to tell me he's doing the same thing. He wanted to bring some juice to school. She said no, the school wouldn't allow it. He bludgeoned her with the question of why. "Why, momma? Why?" Just constantly repeating that question, no matter how many times she told him the school wouldn't allow it. It's like talking to someone over a radio and he isn't receiving your transmission. His manner isn't one of hate or contempt or obvious wise-assness. I'm wondering if it's some sort of passive/aggressive type thing. Here are some things I've thought of:

1. This is some sort of withdrawal/detox sort of response to being taken off his meds. I can't remember what all we had him on, but I know some drugs can stay in the system for a long time.

2. The onset of adolescence might be a factor.

3. When I was home at night this wasn't a problem. My schedule changed four weeks ago. I'm the sole male influence in his life. It has been well documented, in humans as well as other social mammels, that male offspring without the guidance of an older male get very twitchy, to say the least. I saw an interesting program about elephants that addressed this issue. My father died when I was two, but I had an older brother and a grandfather to act as surrogates. Some of my son's acts are obvious and open defiance. He'll do it to his mother and both of his grandmothers, but he won't do it to me. These last three nights, though, were something else. It really was as though he wasn't hearing what he was being told, and he's not good enough at hiding his feelings for me to think it's an act on his part. I'm going to talk today with my supervisors and see how big a bite would be taken out of my meager finances if I stopped teaching my night class. It enfuriates me beyond words to have something so assanine as money make such a huge difference in my life, having something I consider so petty be such a big factor.

4. One of his greatest loves (obssessions, really) is farming. We live on a sugar cane plantation. He hobnobs with the men who work our fields. They let him drive the tractors and harvesters. The mill that we send our cane to closed down this past season, which ended in January. For my son, this was nearly the equivalent of a death in the family. He has literally cried over it. I believe this to be at least a factor in his behavior. My approach has been to simply let him be sad about the mill, though his mother is losing patience with it. She doesn't understand why he feels as strongly about it as he does. Neither do I, but I can't stop him from being sad, so I just let him feel whatever he feels, and if he wants to cry about it that's fine with me. I've told him that it's okay for a man to cry about some things.

5. His love of farming is expressed with his obssession over yard work and the riding lawn mower. It's a John Deere, just like what the field hands use. Recently he had a very close call with the riding mower. It had a safety system in the seat that would automatically cut the engine off if the driver's weight came off the seat. This was acting up in such a manner that the tractor couldn't be used. In searching for this problem, my son discovered a leak in the fuel system. He shut everything off and he and my mother went to the store to order some parts for the tractor. When they returned, my son had forgotten about the fuel leak and got on the tractor and tried to start it. He smelled the gasoline and remembered the fuel leak and had enought time to think "Whoops!" before the trator ignited. He got off wihout getting burned, but we discovered that somehow some small copper parts got lodged in his right buttock when something in the burning tractor blew. The charred remains of the tractor still sit in my front yard. I think the loss of the tractor, combined with the fact that it nearly took him with it, is still impacting him. This happened week-end before last.

6. He has twice tested for gifted and talented at school, but he didn't qualify. His younger sister is now testing for it, and I think he's jealous as hell.

7. We've been sending both our kids to a private Catholic school, but they've hiked up their tuition and we simply can't afrord it anymore. Next year they're going to public school, much to my dislike. I think he's scared about that, though he does well socially. He's much better at making friends than I ever was, especially at that age.

My wife and I have considered sending him to a hospital in Alexandria, Louisiana that might help him. I've been strongly opposed for both emotional and logical reasons, though I freely admit the emotional reasons are the primary ones. I just have a very deep, primal, instinctive reaction against sending him there. Family helps family. Family solves family problems. To me that concept is as firmly fixed and indisputable as gravity. By sending my son to outsiders, I feel like I'm abdicating my duties and responsibilities as a father. I feel like I'd be surrendering and admitting my irreversable failure. My logical reason for resistance is that maybe he'll do fine at that place, but what happens when he comes back home? At school, at other peoples' homes his behavior is fine. It's only at our home that he gives this kind of trouble, leading me to conclude that there is something about the home atmosphere that sets him off, though what that could be I have no clue. I don't think I can truly articulate just how crazy his behavior makes us. It probably doesn't sound so bad, the way I describe it, but living with it is pure madness. As a Tourettic, his episodes are easily set off by certain things. I think to some degree, all of the factors I've mentioned are part of it, and maybe some I don't know about. Talking to my son is an exercise in pure frustration because the only answers I can ever get out of him are "Nothing" or "I don't know."

The upshot of all this is that my family and I have a very big problem that needs to be solved right now and I have absolutely no idea how to do it. Any thoughts or suggestions anybody has I'd love to hear.

Lunacie
February 16th, 2006, 11:40 AM
Aww, I'm so sorry. Yeah, I'd say some is the age he is, and some is there have been so many changes and those are hard for anyone of any age even without any disabilities.

I haven't done much research into Tourette's and OCD but I know they're related to ADD/ADHD and BiPolar and Depression. But I've sure done some research on ADD/ADHD because my granddaughter and I both have ADD.

I don't have health insurance so I can't afford expensive testing, and since I'm allergic to so many things I don't like spending lots of money on prescription drugs that I may react to and have to throw out most of the bottle. My research has led me to Omega 3 oils - found in fish oil and flax seed oil. I've been taking an Omega 3 supplement and find it really helps me with my concentration and thinking clearly.

We were talking about this on another thread here on MW last week (I think it was called Do You Believe There Really Is ADD/ADHD?) and someone else said they have been buying eggs at the supermarket that have lots of Omega 3 and little cholesterol, sounds like a good way to get Omega 3 into the diet, eh?

Have you also been doing some kind of behavior therapy for your son along with the meds? I believe it takes both Pills and Skills in many cases. Your son is old enough and with the added challenge of changing to a public school next year you might look into getting him a coach to help him plan his homework and study time. When a family member tries to coach it comes off more like nagging, so getting someone else to coach is much more helpful.

Good luck to your whole family with all the changes and challenges in your lives. :hugz:

Ceres
February 16th, 2006, 12:05 PM
I dont know how open you are to alternative therapies, but we brought our son to a homeopathic doctor when he was a preschooler and some upsetting behaviors were starting to surface. I had already been seeing this doctor myself and my husband had been seeing him as well and we found the therapies helpful for us. For my son, they didnt solve all the problems, but it made his behaviors bearable. At least if they dont work for you, they will do no harm, which cant always be said of drug therapies.
If you decide to use that resource, find a Doctor of Homeopathic medicine who has been practicing a long time. The ones who got into it twenty or thirty years ago tend to be better trained in our expirence. Newer ones often combine many different therapies so you dont know what you will get from one to the next.

The remedy used is entirely dependent on your son's symptoms - both as he describes them and as you do. Expect to be asked about his emotional and physical symptoms, as well as a deep delving into his past, medically and emotionally. Just doing this can sometimes be cathartic for the client.

Since he does show passion for some things, perhaps he will be better in doing the things he loves to do. I am not sure if homeschooling is a possibility for him, but it might just allow him more time to pursue his interests. It may also be a consideration while his behaviors are erratic since that can be very difficult for kids, socially speaking.

Cassie
February 16th, 2006, 12:08 PM
Valnoran I would guess a combination the first 5 reasons you quoted are responsible for your son's present condition. In particular, taking him off the meds. Did you do it slowly or cold turkey? The body can take quite a while to adapt to a change in it's chemical make-up.



My wife and I have considered sending him to a hospital in Alexandria, Louisiana that might help him. I've been strongly opposed for both emotional and logical reasons, though I freely admit the emotional reasons are the primary ones. I just have a very deep, primal, instinctive reaction against sending him there. Family helps family. Family solves family problems. To me that concept is as firmly fixed and indisputable as gravity. By sending my son to outsiders, I feel like I'm abdicating my duties and responsibilities as a father. I feel like I'd be surrendering and admitting my irreversable failure.

Could you try to look at this in another way. Family helps family yes; but part of that help is insuring that family gets the best care and attention possible from experts in the field of need. It is not abdicating your responsibility, quite the opposite; it is insuring that your son has every possibility to get better and become all he can be. I am sure you would not just leave him at the hospital, you would be in regular contact and you can always take him out if there is no sign of improvement. Perhaps it is worth a try?

Whatever you decide, I wish you and your family well and all the strength you need to deal with this. :hugz:

atropa
February 16th, 2006, 12:48 PM
Sorry Valnorran that you guys are going through this. It seems as though there have been an awful lot of changes for him lately. Maybe there are some herbal therapies you could look into as far as meds go. Maybe you could make a deal with him that if he mows a few lawns or does odd jobs you would pool your money in with his to get a riding mower for him. It would probably help his self esteem some to have a responsibility and make some money at the same time. As far as the facility you were looking into, you are not a failure. I totally understand what you're saying with family helping family though. I hope you can work this out through family but if you need help, it doesn't mean you're failing him, it means that you're doing every single thing you can to help him. I wish I had some answers for you, Valnorran. Chances are the drugs are still in his system, he's had alot of loss lately, he's entering adolescence, you've changed your schedule, etc. It's alot for him. It did worry me that he seemed somewhat delusional though. Again maybe it's remnants of drugs... Please keep us posted, okay?

Temptation
February 16th, 2006, 01:21 PM
Val, I think you need outside help.

It seems that you've done all you could possibly do. Sometimes the best thing to do is to turn to someone who's not so emotionally involved in the situation.

Your son's answers "Nothing" and "I don't know" struck a particular chord in me because these are the answers I used to give my parents as well.
I went through a very rough patch from 8 to 12 years old as well. Unfortunately my folks did not have the intelligence to see that I needed help. They thought I was just being difficult on purpose. Lucky for me, I had my grandmother to help me through all that crap. I wouldn't be here today if it hadn't been for her.

"Nothing" for me translated as "There's so much I want to say but I have no idea where to start" and "I don't know" meant "It's just too damn hard to even begin to find the right words to make you understand".

Getting outside help doesn't mean that you've failed as a dad.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do. :hugz:

Ceres
February 16th, 2006, 02:12 PM
I agree that outside help is a good idea, but it doesnt neccessarily have to mean sending him away to stay at a hospital. Family SHOULD be there for family, but I dont think anyone is well served by trying to handle situations within the family that are beyond your scope. Perhaps there are some other options that arent so dramatic?

Valnorran
February 16th, 2006, 04:03 PM
We've tired psychiatrists. It seems every single one in our area believes medication to be the answer. After several years of trying so many meds I forgot which ones they were, I've lost a certain amount of faith in the pharmaceuticle industry. Oh, I forgot to mention my son is believed to be bi-polar, as well.

Yesterday my wife took him to a (probably mispelling this) tratuer (French-type pronunciation), which is sort of a folk healer/spiritual/psychic kind of thing. Wife seemed to like the results. I wish I could've been there to see it for myself. We're going to keep trying him for a while and see how that works.

I do believe that, one way or another, I have to be home at nights. I've been scanning the want ads, an exercisie in depression if ever there was one. Around here if you're not some sort of machinist you're at a big disadvantage. Most work centers on the petro-chemical industry, which means working shifts two weeks long or longer on offshore oil rigs.

The more I'm thinking about this the more I'm fixating on the withdrawl from meds theory. Tourettic children are not easy to raise, but what I saw last night was quite different from the usual shenanigans. When my son procrastinates, it's with the usual heming and hawing and "just a minute" and whatnot. Last night it was like he really wasn't hearing or was totally oblivious to his own inaction. I've never seen him like that. Wife got so disgusted with the medical industry she just took him off the meds cold turkey. Maybe we should get him back on some (one was some ritalin derivative. There's no way I'm putting him back on that stuff.) and gradually weening him off. Ritalin can intensify the nervous ticcs of Tourett's, and some researchers thing ritalin can actually cause Tourett's. Just one of the things you learn in the on-the-job training of raising a Tourettic. Wife's also been on and off numerous meds for depression and blood pressure. Add to that her own paralyzing self-doubt and there's a decent chance she made the wrong decision. I'll ask her tonight when I get home.

DragonsChest
February 16th, 2006, 04:18 PM
I have no medical expertise, but my gut feeling says that stopping his meds cold turkey was a bad idea. Weaning him off them would probably have been a better solution. Have you contacted the doctor to find out if his spacing out could be related to that?

Yes, he's going to be acting more and more like a teenager now, and with that comes the attitude. His sounds like it will be magnified because of his other problems. (Vetteman and I have an 18 yr old boy and a 15 yr old girl - attitude can sometimes be their middle names.)

This is a very tough situation your family is in. I know you want to be the protecting father and beat off the wolves at your door trying to get your son, but perhaps the best way you can protect him is to allow outside help to help you. There is no shame in asking for and accepting help. If the hospital doesn't help him, you will remove him and try something else.

I haven't got a clue what you must be living through, but I send you my heartfelt wishes for a good outcome and energy for your family to continue to pull together. :hugz:

Valnorran
February 16th, 2006, 05:16 PM
Oh, crap. I just had another thought.

Last week I started doing a ritual to get a new job, one that would enable me to be home at nights. There were two, maybe three times that I decided to use my anger and frustration as a means of powering the spell. I did not direct the anger at anyone, I'm just angry about the situation, and I worked within a circle, but maybe I set something in motion? I thought I might have had a constructive outlet for all the frustration, but maybe it just made things worse.

Semele
February 16th, 2006, 05:37 PM
Damn Val, sounds like a whole lot of things all going on at once for him right now. Age wise he is at a pivotal place where things just naturally start getting a little hairy for kiddos anyway. Add in a bunch of unbalancing medications and then start withdrawing them either all at once or weaning and that will cause confusion, along with all the situational stressors that pop up on a daily basis. All the same items that are stressors for us as parents, stress out the little members of the family for different reasons. They don't know why they are stressed out over money, just that they are responding to our stress levels with their own.

I think the most important thing is that you are aware of the problem and seeking answers to it. You are aware of his grieving the mill and letting him do so freely and I think that is the right thing to do. Perhaps he could plant a garden and have a project that he could focus energy on himself this summer. I know that is more for later in the year, but he could begin planning for it now.

I feel your frustration over the money issue and having to make it a focus in our lives in order to be able to do what we need with our children. It is hard to make it a priority without letting it take over all the time. Tricky but not impossible. Just make sure the time you do get to spend with them is good time and not embittered right?

Philosophia
February 16th, 2006, 05:51 PM
I have no medical expertise, but my gut feeling says that stopping his meds cold turkey was a bad idea. Weaning him off them would probably have been a better solution. Have you contacted the doctor to find out if his spacing out could be related to that?

I agree with DragonsChest. Going cold turkey on medication, especially something as pivotal as this, isn't a good idea and can be rather harmful. When lowering or leaving medication, its best if its weaned off.
However, if you do go back to the doctor, don't allow him to give you any more medication for your son. If you do, it can start a wave of new medications that do nothing except treat the symptoms.
I also agree with Radikalwomyn about homeopathic medicines. Have you tried Nutritionists and behavioural specialists?
There was a program on Australian tv which talked about a suggested cure for ADD. It was about aligning the minds systems with space technology. Here's the link for it: http://aca.ninemsn.com.au/stories/2034.asp

Kalika
February 17th, 2006, 10:45 AM
First of all, :hugz: I can't even begin to imagine what you're going through, or the stress it is putting not only on your son, but on the family as a whole.

Have you spoken with a doctor about his behaviour, and all of the factors that you listed below in order to give them the full picture?

The simplest answer could be that too much has happened for your son all at once, and he is having a difficult time processing everything - and this is how he reacts.

If you're worried that your anger was released and your son is picking up on it, you might try cleansing your house and grounds, if at all possible. Even doing so without the negative emotions around can be a good idea, as it'll help calm the whole family.

Kalika
February 17th, 2006, 10:48 AM
Yesterday my wife took him to a (probably mispelling this) tratuer (French-type pronunciation), which is sort of a folk healer/spiritual/psychic kind of thing. Wife seemed to like the results. I wish I could've been there to see it for myself. We're going to keep trying him for a while and see how that works.


.

Traiteur I think it is. :)

And, a simple alternative method such as this could work wonders, since no medicines to date have worked.

You might see if you can find a specialist on his most serious condition - tell them what has been going on, that you do not want medications, but alternative therapy, and see if they can make a recommendation for you.

Valnorran
February 20th, 2006, 08:41 AM
Thanks for all the support. I waited the week-end before responding to see what would happen. He had been on Ambilify, Paxil, and something with Ritalin in it, but I can't remember its name. Thursday night we put him back on the Ambilify and Paxil and things have returned to normal. Well, as close to normal as things get with someone with Tourett's, OCD, bi-polar, etc. He seemed to enjoy his visit with the traiture and wants to go back. Tourettics experience something from time to time, a period during which their symptoms intensify. I think last week was one of those weeks. I'm also convinced the onset of adolescence is in play here. At any rate, things seem to be back on track. Thanks, everyone, for your support.

Cassie
February 20th, 2006, 08:43 AM
Pleased to hear things are getting back on track. I'm sure the onset of adolescence doesn't help! ;)

tarotgirljess
February 20th, 2006, 09:23 AM
hey there, Just wanted to offer a word of warning about paxil. My hubby is on it and It's bad bad stuff to quit cold turkey. It causes everything from electrical zaps to halucinations. definatly wean him from that one very very slowly. I was searching side effects of paxil and stumbled upon a website support group for people who were trying to come off of it. many said it caused changes in how they felt some it made suicidle others it made them violent or just plain mean. I urge you to google the effects of coming off paxil cold turkey. That may have been a huge part of the problem.
Jess

Valnorran
February 20th, 2006, 10:52 AM
hey there, Just wanted to offer a word of warning about paxil. My hubby is on it and It's bad bad stuff to quit cold turkey. It causes everything from electrical zaps to halucinations. definatly wean him from that one very very slowly. I was searching side effects of paxil and stumbled upon a website support group for people who were trying to come off of it. many said it caused changes in how they felt some it made suicidle others it made them violent or just plain mean. I urge you to google the effects of coming off paxil cold turkey. That may have been a huge part of the problem.
Jess
I agree. Last Thursday night I found some websites devoted to paxil withdrawal and came away convinced that was the majority of the problem. That was the last night of problems. That was when we resumed his meds. He's been fine since.

Just a few minutes ago my morning class ended. Several of my students were freely discussing their problems, problems that required anti-psychotics. It was sobering. My son's tourett's and OCD and whatnot doesn't seem nearly as bad as paranoid schitzophrenia, which two of my students openly admitted to having.

Lunacie
February 20th, 2006, 11:15 AM
Yeah, only a generation or two ago people with schitzophrenia were locked away in institutions. Now they take meds and mingle with the rest of us. The problem is that schitzophrenics and bi-polars take the meds and feel better and think they're okay so they stop taking the meds and have this rebound like you saw with your son. It's not really your job but you may want to keep an eye on the two self-admitted schitzos in case their behavior changes abruptly.

The doctor wanted my daughter to take Prozac or Paxil when she was suffering from post-partum depression but after checking it out on the internet she chose not to take the meds. Any time you stop taking them suddenly you're going to have some kind of reaction, usually not a good one. In the right dosage they can be very helpful though.

misschief
February 20th, 2006, 11:46 AM
this probably seems like it's from left field... lol... but, has he had an EEG?