Faith and Feelings

[Rasenna]

I recently had a young Asatru person make a crass remark about
something in front of mixed company. When I called him on it, instead
of either apologizing or taking responsibility for what he said, he
passed it off as essentially "the Heathen way." What do older
Heathens think of this outburst as pertaining to the Nine Noble Virtues
(particuarly Honor and Hospitality) and his rationale? My personal
feeling is that if a person wants to say something in a rude way--
which I don't think it right--but then at least have the guts to say
it. But if it offends somebody, then own up to it instead of feeding
the offended person a bunch of dogma.
Other opinions, please?
~R

[Mjollnir]

I recently had a young Asatru person make a crass remark about
something in front of mixed company. When I called him on it, instead
of either apologizing or taking responsibility for what he said, he
passed it off as essentially "the Heathen way." What do older
Heathens think of this outburst as pertaining to the Nine Noble Virtues
(particuarly Honor and Hospitality) and his rationale? My personal
feeling is that if a person wants to say something in a rude way--
which I don't think it right--but then at least have the guts to say
it. But if it offends somebody, then own up to it instead of feeding
the offended person a bunch of dogma.
Other opinions, please?
~R

Well...........what was the comment? what was the setting? and what was the "mixed group" it was said in front of? I cannot give my thoughts with so little to go on.

[Rasenna]

Well...........what was the comment? what was the setting? and what was the "mixed group" it was said in front of? I cannot give my thoughts with so little to go on.

Very well. This was with a local college pagan group. This guy and his fiance are the only two heathens in the group. Now, I know that heathens are conservative, and I know that, as such, they may often feel as if they are a minority within the larger pagan culture. I myself follow a reconstructionist path, albeit a much more liberal one. There were a lot of Wiccans and liberals in the group, and this young fellow expressed his opinion about alternative sexualities in a less than palatable manner, not considering his audience. When I later pointed out that *I* am of an alternative sexuality, and that I was offended by his comment, and that he should be more diplomatic with how he expresses his opinions in the future, he retorted to me that this was the heathen view on sexuality, quoted Tacticus at me, and told me that I should just accept it because it was "just an opinion." I have lived long enough to know that there is a difference between expressing an opinion and being obnoxious. For example, if I were to say: "I don't care for heathenry and it's not a path which I would choose for myself," THAT is expressing an opinion. If, on the other hand, I were to take his tactic and spit out "Ppfftt!! Heathenry!!" in a VERY sarcastic tone of voice, as if I were about to choke on the word and all it stood for, THAT could be interpreted as obnoxious, agreed? MY stance is that, if you want to say something, then say it, but don't be rude about it. And, if you're caught being rude, then TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for what you've said, and either apologize or stand behind it, but don't hide behind Tacticus or anyone else and say, "that's the way our ancestors felt, and so that's how *I* feel!" Take ownership for what you say. Period.
Now...
Thoughts?

[Rick]

Remind the young fellow that Tacitus was a Roman, an enemy of Heathens (and while we don't wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater, Tacitus is largely uncorroborated, so I have a hard time taking him without the grain of salt)... sorta like Christians following a Jew, ain't it?

[Mjollnir]

Remind the young fellow that Tacitus was a Roman, an enemy of Heathens (and while we don't wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater, Tacitus is largely uncorroborated, so I have a hard time taking him without the grain of salt)... sorta like Christians following a Jew, ain't it?


Houseful of heathens, just had a Freya blót, I promise I will get back to you ASAP.

[Rasenna]

Remind the young fellow that Tacitus was a Roman, an enemy of Heathens (and while we don't wanna throw the baby out with the bathwater, Tacitus is largely uncorroborated, so I have a hard time taking him without the grain of salt)... sorta like Christians following a Jew, ain't it?

Actually, Tacticus was a Greek who lived most of his life in Rome. But I still don't understand what a so-called Germanic Heathen is doing quoting a Greek in order to explain why he believes something is "wrong" or "unjustified." Let's just say that whatever he's puttin' in his brownies, *I'd* sure like some LOLOL!!
~R

[Nantonos]

Actually, Tacticus was a Greek who lived most of his life in Rome. But I still don't understand what a so-called Germanic Heathen is doing quoting a Greek in order to explain why he believes something is "wrong" or "unjustified."
~R
Because Tacitus is one of our few historical, as opposed to archaeological, sources on the pre-migration period. Its perfectly fine to quote Tacitus if, for example, challenged on a statement such as "first century Heathens did X", whatever X is. Its just as natural and has the same problems as Heathens quoting 12th century Christian writers (or the same for Celtic recons actually), which they often do.

Where it comes adrift is the infrerence from the small to the large - saying "some first century Heathens did X" is not the same as "all heathens in all time periods did X" or "all modern Heathens must therefore do X".

If he disagrees, tell him you have a wooden cart that needs washing ... :cheers:

[Driffinna]

Houseful of heathens, just had a Freya blót, I promise I will get back to you ASAP.


O.O what are you doing online when you have a house full of heathens?

[David19]

By alternative sexuality, does it mean anything related to LGBT, because if he did refer to that, then maybe he should look into Loki and Odin as they had sex (also i think there are many myths of Loki and/or Odin, shifting into female form = transgender, this was told to me by another heathen, also this site is good http://home.earthlink.net/~ekerilaz/heruli.html).

[Mjollnir]

There were a lot of Wiccans and liberals in the group, and this young fellow expressed his opinion about alternative sexualities in a less than palatable manner, not considering his audience.

Ok, I have now the time to devote to answering this, and Driff, we missed you!!!!!!!

I will assume you mean he was making a derogatory remark involving homosexuals. As host, I would personally have tossed him out of the house by his britches while reminding him Loki was a shapeshifter, assumed the female form of another animal to give birth to Sleipnir,Thor dressed up as Freya to get Mjollnir back, and Odin was run out of town for practicing seiðh work, which was considered womanly while hopefully getting that all in before his ass hit the sidewalk.

Loki and Odin trading barbs in Lokasenna:

"Granted I gave,as give I should not,
mastery to worser men:
thou winters eight wast the earth beneath,
milking the cows as a maid,
and there gavest birth to a brood:
were these womanish ways I ween."

and it was then that Loki replied:

"But thou,they say, on Sáms Isle once
wovest spells like a witch:
in warlock's shape through the worldst did fare:
were these womanish ways I ween.:




When I later pointed out that *I* am of an alternative sexuality, and that I was offended by his comment, and that he should be more diplomatic with how he expresses his opinions in the future, he retorted to me that this was the heathen view on sexuality, quoted Tacticus at me, and told me that I should just accept it because it was "just an opinion."

Your friend needs not only a lesson in manners but in his own faith as well, homosexuality was not looked upon as so much as a bad thing, but what was frowned upon was the recipient. The whole thing is that any activity that falls outside of the norm, homosexuality included, is not encouraged. It is therefore OK to use a dick as a dick, but not an asshole as a vagina - in other words, one man can use his dick up anothers ass if he is a man, but it is not OK to be the guy that receives the first guys dick. That's for women and is unmanly.

If you really want to whip up a hornets nest, Ynglingasaga clearly says that women only should practise seith because it involves so much ergi (unmanliness), and yet Odin is the God of seith. He learned it from Freya. I would ask your friend how he views that.

Your friend also needs to realize, that as a worldview, we heathens are also looking through a modern filter when reading and translating what the lore means, he needs to bone up, if he wants to take the lore as "gospel" maybe he should become and evangelical kristjan.


I have lived long enough to know that there is a difference between expressing an opinion and being obnoxious. For example, if I were to say: "I don't care for heathenry and it's not a path which I would choose for myself," THAT is expressing an opinion. If, on the other hand, I were to take his tactic and spit out "Ppfftt!! Heathenry!!" in a VERY sarcastic tone of voice, as if I were about to choke on the word and all it stood for, THAT could be interpreted as obnoxious, agreed? MY stance is that, if you want to say something, then say it, but don't be rude about it. And, if you're caught being rude, then TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for what you've said, and either apologize or stand behind it, but don't hide behind Tacticus or anyone else and say, "that's the way our ancestors felt, and so that's how *I* feel!" Take ownership for what you say. Period.
Now...
Thoughts?


I just find it odd he mentioned Tacitus, yet as I pointed out the 3 mentions in the lore of things being done that could be considered unmanly, he conveniently chose to ignore. I think your friend needs to read a little more, understand what he is reading, and keep the hole under his nose shut when in mixed company....either that or he can find a path that agrees with his views because all of the heathens I know do not.

[Rick]

Here, here!!!

[Driffinna]

Ok, I have now the time to devote to answering this, and Driff, we missed you!!!!!!!

I missed you guys too! I really hope I can make the next months.

Oh and your reply to Rasenna - couldn't put it better myself.

[Rasenna]

Well, if any of you want to know EXACTLY what transpired, I saved all the e-mails of the event.
Lemme know <eg>
~R

[Mjollnir]

Well, if any of you want to know EXACTLY what transpired, I saved all the e-mails of the event.
Lemme know <eg>
~R


e-mail me, and by all means take what I said and show it to your "friend".