Do all magic users believe in karma?

[David19]

I was going to say do all witches believe in karma, but i know some people use different words to describe themselves (sorcerer, wizard, mage, shaman, etc), but this is something i wanted to know, since i've seen a lot of people say things about karma whenever they work magic or whatever, and at first i thought it might only be wiccans (as it is a part of wiccan belief), but i've noticed a lot of witches and others who talk about karma.

Also do all wiccan's believe in karma or the 3 fold law?

Thanks.

[Wiccanizer]

I believe that what goes around comes around, maybe not threefold but with enough oomph to wake you the hell up.

I know quite a few others who don't believe this at all and they're Wiccan.

So I voted no. Not every magical practitioner believes in the karma concept.

[Rick]

Um... where's the category for "Not no, but hell no!!!"? :hehehehe:

[MysticWitch]

I do :D

[Phoenix Element]

Curious, why do you have us answering for the entire community? Wouldn't it be easier to tally results from a question on individual beliefs?

I believe in karma, to a degree, but I know for a fact that some magic users think it's absolute hogswallop (whatever that it)

[Mouse]

No, not all magickans do, and those that do think of it in different ways. I'm a Witch and I believe that like attracts like, as in the more negitive a person is then the more negitive things will be attracted to that person. And that "what goes around comes around". But I think threefold return is a load of bull, and I can't see the logic in paying for the last life's deeds in this life and so forth.

Then there are people who believe that karma (or whatever) is only a rule of magick, where others (includeing me) believe that this kind of "rule" should apply to all aspects of life.

Karma isn't a Wiccan belief, it came from a different belief system (though i'm not 100% sure which one). The 3 fold law is (as far as I'm aware) Wiccan, but like the rede many simply ignor it or class it as a guide. The two terms are not interchangeable. :)

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

I was going to say do all witches believe in karma, but i know some people use different words to describe themselves (sorcerer, wizard, mage, shaman, etc), but this is something i wanted to know, since i've seen a lot of people say things about karma whenever they work magic or whatever, and at first i thought it might only be wiccans (as it is a part of wiccan belief), but i've noticed a lot of witches and others who talk about karma.

Also do all wiccan's believe in karma or the 3 fold law?

Thanks.

no, all magick users do not believe in karma or anything of the sort. its individual...or set by tradition/belief system. However, all wiccans do believe in teh rule of three, as its a main tenat of wiccan belief.

personally, however, as a solitary witch, i believe in both...at least to some extent ^_^

[Tabbykitty]

Er, I'd say its a clear "no" to your question. After reading posts for about a year or so here there's enough evidence to indicate the not everyone believes in karma or the threefold law.

Just a short explanation on karma. Basically the idea of karma comes from Hindu and Buddhist beliefs. However, quite a lot of practicioners of asian religions in my region also believe in the idea of some sort of "retribution" for deeds done...

Karma basically means debt. Evey deed breeds its own kind of karma. So there can be good karma and bad karma. Mostly when people talk about karma they mean the bad kind. The understanding of how it works is that if someone does something like steal from a friend, then as a part of the "debt", that person will have to live through a simlar experience, either in this life or the next, where he is the victim of theft from a friend.

This "debt" then creates a cycle or pattern that perpetuates itself continuously until the individuals break it by making alternative decisions. Sometimes they have to do this a few times to break the pattern, sometimes many times. The pattern stops when the individual in question has fully learned the lesson behind the karma.

The reason for the recurrance of the pattern is part of the mechanism that balances the "debt" by having the victim become the cause and the cause the victim so that both get to experience both sides of the equation and thus over time, learn the lesson.

I hope that information was useful for ya.

[Janus109]

I've met a few negative magicians in my day, so I would have to say no. I most surely believe in the three-fold law and let that guide me.

[Happy Shrew]

I've always understood karma to be more along the lines of general consequences of your actions, not some sort of cosmic bank account. Then again, I read stuff by the Dalai Lama, and Tibetan terms seem to be big on subtlety.

It's like this - your choices in the future depend on your choices now. If you're a jerk, you won't have as many friends, so when you're in trouble you won't have the option of calling on others to help you. If you're kind and contribute to the community, others will be there for you.

Theoretically, then, you could do something nasty now and as a result have some better options in the future. If you're in an abusive situation and beat the snot out of the person in self defense, you'll have the option of walking away and starting over, whereas doing nothing leaves you with few options.

Seeing as how so many people here talk about considering the consequences of things before doing them, I have a feeling that most if not all of them believe in this general idea. As for actually getting back what you send out, hells no.

[Theres]

Do all magic users believe in karma?

yes, every damn one of them, without exception.

[laserhazel]

When I think of Karma, I always think of Sir Isaac Newton's rule about for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. The thing about this is, that when I started working with witchcraft, I read about the 3-fold rule. I always think that the three fold rule is only true if you believe it, and in a similar way, I believe that the application of karma to Newton's rule of return is that if you believe in it, it will appear to you.

It is a very interesting topic, and it always best to remain neutral when talking to other people about it.

[Fire's Shadow]

Blanket statement: try again please.

[Sundragon]

If I may be so bold as to quote myself on this subject if only because I feel the same now as when I originally wrote this. :) (some changes to clarify my position):

As a Wiccan I should state that I do not believe in the Three Fold Law because it seems to be, to me, an artificial and arbitrary construct not found in any other of the worlds traditions and seems excessively punative in regards to "negative" actions. I just don't see the rationale for a 3 fold return for either "good" or "evil" magickal acts. Also it seems to be a little simplistic for a nuanced faith whose only real prime directive is the Wiccan Rede.

I do not believe in Karma as generally accepted in the Wiccan/magickal community. I see Karma as erupting from within us in result of actions that seperate us from the Divine within and it is based on learning and understanding and not on punishment. The universe doesn't inflict anything on us, it is we, our souls or spirits that desire our full evolution into an external representation of the Divine (God and Goddess) spark within us. Our souls/spirits attempt to nudge us onto the path of reunion with the Divine that oftimes we choose to leave for any number of reasons. Sometimes we stray due to ethical/moral laziness and expedience and sometimes through ignorance. In either case we are nudged either softly or strongly back onto the path to God and Goddess.

Karma as a teacher comes softly at first as our souls/spirits/the Gods seek to bring us back into alignment with our personal evolutionary path. Things only get dicey when we ignore the messages and the messages will get louder and louder (in this life or another) until such time that they become a shout. At any time, true awareness, understanding, forgiveness of self and when appropriate making right what was wrong (even if all that can be done is an apology or an act of kindness) will negate any further messages and eliminate any further Karma.

And past lives, in regards to the karma they generate, influence us, they do not direct or dominate. Our previous existances are the glasses that shade our perceptions and habitual patterns in this life. I have done many regression therapy sessions with clients and have found this to be true. It is also true that one need never look into past lives for solutions unless one is interested in such things. The point of change, transformation and magick is ALWAYS NOW and never in the past.

Karma as understood by many Wiccans is portrayed some strange balancing wheel between good and evil is an overly simplistic view of the mechanism and is more in alignment with simple minded good and evil duality found in Christianity, Islam and Zoroastrianism.

Too many Wiccans talk about moral balance. Balancing light and dark (as in evil) as if Wicca was a Dungeons and Dragons role-playing game with its childish system of alignment loyalties (for those familiar with the system). There is no such thing as moral "balance" there is seeking the infinite light and love of God and Goddess or there is not. I want to see an example of this moral balance. Does one immediately go out and kick a puppy after helping an old woman across the street?

There is balance between polarities of masculine and feminine, passive and assertive, being and becoming, light and shadow (an integrated shadow is very positive) but not between good and evil. What is good brings us closer to the Gods (this can be found as a thread through most faiths....and not surprisingly it is a cliched idea.... LOVE). What is unloving is harmful and "evil" if I can use the term.

The greater our communion with the Gods the less negative "karma" we incur naturally because the greater our communion with Goddess and God the more we naturally function out of love, compassion and wisdom, all qualities that assure us of not needing hard lessons.


Blessed Be,

Chris


PS. I should have voted "other" on the poll instead of no.

[Astara Seague]

if they dont they probaly should

[Prophecy]

Karma or retribution? Karma is believed to follow from life to life and started from the Hindu belief system. In my travels on the Witch/Wiccan/Kahuna etc (religion) paths in my life and all the initiations I have gone through and attended/witnessed I have found that the predominant belief to be the 3 fold law or Law of Retribution. When one is first initiated into the craft one USUALLY makes the oath of the Witches/Wiccan rede/law. Law of Retribution is what one does in this life time one gets back whether it be good or bane.
If one does good then one begets good if one does something of a baneful act then watch your ass. It is ok to ask for help from whatever Deity you worship in whatever the case. ALways seek guidance.

[mtpathy]

I do not believe in karma within the traditional "wiccan",sense of the word.
Karma to me is created through interaction,We as a social species
interact with other to create this "space",we call reality.
If you react negativly or positivley to another persons actions,that is
karma.
If you hate yourself inwardly,then you act on that hate outwardly that
is karma.
If you love yourself inwardly,then you act on that love outwardly that
still is karma.
If you define yourself through your thoughts,emotions,and outward
manifestation "reality",then you exist and create karma.

[mtpathy]

I've met a few negative magicians in my day, so I would have to say no. I most surely believe in the three-fold law and let that guide me.
Many left-hand practitioners believe in karma as well,simply put they use
karma as a way of confronting self obstacles to overcome themselves,and
by this putting a end to karma "uprooting self",instead of seeing karma as
a system of if you do good or bad,good or bad will come back to you "....."
amount of times.

[Philosophia]

I know many magicians who don't believe in karma; thats there choice. Whether or not they should, is not up to me to decide.
I believe in karma but in a physics/ripple effect way, i.e. for every action there is a equal and opposite reaction.

[Rasenna]

I voted no, but I *do* believe in toxic mood contagion.
-R

[Rasenna]

If I did, I wouldn't bother with curses/hexes at all...
-R

[Garm]

Me and my imediate magical peers were [past tense is important here, a disproptionate number are dead now] the self taught, learn as you go, adapt and improvise, damn the torpedoes full speed ahead types of practictioners and resultingly I got to see some excellent examples of karmic blowback.

I didn't start a beleiver in Karma but...

For instance, I saw a 17 girl hospitalized after doing a hex, she had the physial symptoms of a heart attack but the doctors couldn't find anything wrong with her. The intended target in this case had already been messed with quite a bit. He had taken a beating for some ill advised jokes about bestiality to a dog owner who was mourning the loss of his doberman. Now, she and her co conspirater couldn't resist the opurtunity provided by his disciplining to get a lock of his hair and push the envolope a little further. And presto, blowback.

It was taken for granted hexing was a risky bussiness.

I supose the elder trained would put it down to sloppy spellcasting but whacking yourself in the face a few times is the best way to learn how the balance works.

And as you do that, you learn how to use the balance.

It's kind of like skateboarding in that way.

[Teresa]

I can not answer for others , just for myself personally. I believe that what you give out to the world does come back to you.EX: If you pass out smiles to everyone you meet then one day when You need a smile one will come back to you. If you give out negative energy then it will come back to you at some point. I do not believe in the three fold law but I do believe that the energy you give out comes back be it positive or negative.

[Rasenna]

Yeah, but it could just as well be that you smile at people all the time and no one EVER smiles back. I've literally spent ENTIRE days smiling at people and saying hello to them, only to have them look at me like "Drop dead!"
-R

[David19]

Yeah, but it could just as well be that you smile at people all the time and no one EVER smiles back. I've literally spent ENTIRE days smiling at people and saying hello to them, only to have them look at me like "Drop dead!"
-R

Yeah, sometimes that's happened to me, lol.

[laserhazel]

Another good question is why to or not to believe in Karma. If Karma is real, then there is a pretty good reason not to cast evil spells and if it is not real, there is not a good reason not to cast evil spells. Of course "evil spells" are kind of silly and childish and the belief in the three-fold law keeps a lot of people from partaking on such an endeavor.

So, though a witch might not believe in the Buddhist Definition of Karma, a witch probably believes in the three-fold law, which is just another version of the Law of Cyclic Return, whereas all that you send out comes back to you, at least in equal amounts. However, it is possible to send out a spell without the cyclic return principle...something like you launch an Air to Surface Missile and it won't return to you.

However, a lot of energy circulates in the air about Yin and Yang being in perfect balance. This is probably where the perception of the law of cyclic return is rooted. If I send you love and light, there is a chance you might not receive it, and if you did receive it, you might not have the capacity to return it, so the law of cyclic return dies here too.

It is likely that Karma truly does exist, but only to those who maintain the law of cyclic return in all things...that an act will have an equal and opposite reaction.

[Xirian]

No, I do believe in the consequences of my actions, but I don't necessarily believe in karma.

Isn't karma based on the fact that you will be saved and reincarnated? If you don't believe in reincarnation, it seems wrong (to me) to take on the belief in karma, because you would only be believing in the cause-and-effect portion and not the "I do this because this will happen to me when "x" happens."

Karma is an eastern based belief, and is not a part of my belief system right now.

[Ptah]

If I did, I wouldn't bother with curses/hexes at all...
-R

You shouldn't anyway... They solve nothing, in the long run, they accomplish nothing but retribution.

[Verthandi]

You shouldn't anyway... They solve nothing, in the long run, they accomplish nothing but retribution.

You say "accomplish nothing but retribution" like it's a bad thing.

[Verthandi]

No, I do believe in the consequences of my actions, but I don't necessarily believe in karma.

Isn't karma based on the fact that you will be saved and reincarnated? If you don't believe in reincarnation, it seems wrong (to me) to take on the belief in karma, because you would only be believing in the cause-and-effect portion and not the "I do this because this will happen to me when "x" happens."

Karma is an eastern based belief, and is not a part of my belief system right now.

Total agreement, Xirian. I too believe in consequences, but I don't believe there is some cosmic force that's going to bitch-slap me because I bind/curse/hex someone.

I believe in reincarnation, but I still don't believe in karma; my path isn't an eastern one, so why try to make it fit? My actions in this life won't affect my next life, which is essentially what karma is for.

[Xirian]

Total agreement, Xirian. I too believe in consequences, but I don't believe there is some cosmic force that's going to bitch-slap me because I bind/curse/hex someone.

I believe in reincarnation, but I still don't believe in karma; my path isn't an eastern one, so why try to make it fit? My actions in this life won't affect my next life, which is essentially what karma is for.
I tend to have similar thoughts. I believe in reincarnation, but only the reincarnation of energy. I don't happen to believe that energy is good or bad and therefore whether I was bad in this life has no bearing on whether the energy that comes from my body is bad or good. It just is energy and will be useful to the entities that need it when I pass on.

[Sage Rainsong]

I believe in consequences but I don't like using the word karma because in reality any karma is considered a bad thing because it binds one further to the cycles of the universe. I don't believe in that, so I guess technically I don't believe in karma.

[Ptah]

You say "accomplish nothing but retribution" like it's a bad thing.

Not a thing is accomplished through retribution...



I believe in consequences but I don't like using the word karma because in reality any karma is considered a bad thing because it binds one further to the cycles of the universe. I don't believe in that, so I guess technically I don't believe in karma.


Karma is only the result of an action and that doesn't have to be a bad thing. What would be the result of taking the right action?

[Darius]

I voted other because I believe in a form of Karma, though not the karma that most people adhere to. I don't believe in the wiccan "3 fold law" or "and harm none" stuff, blahbitty blah blah. I also believe that if you practice Black magick, to escape becomming one with the source, you can also escape karma.

[arianrhods_daughter]

I don't believe karma to be a simple thing or something that can be understood and rationalised by our way of thinking. So in that instance I chose other because although I believe in a "karma-like" phenomena I don't think it works how many believe it to be..

[dr_zeus440]

i said "no" because im a magic-user that doesnt believe in karma. kudos for your use of the word "magic-user".

karma is probably a lot more complex than i'd care to assume, than most people would care to assume. but my understanding of karma is that one's good deeds and bad deeds are balanced with ones rewards and punishments. i have a hard time believing in a cosmic system of reward and punishment, i straight up disbelieve the existence of good and evil, and i squint at the notion of balance because i dont understand how it exists but i still think it probably does in some way. so i dont believe in my understanding of karma. but its probably more complex that i understand it to be. oh well.

[Aequitas]

Certainly not. But, as a magician, I do employ a "dont sh*t where you sleep" mentality.

[coeur]

Certainly not. It should be known that most magicians do not believe in karma. This is not to say that they don't believe in consequences, that is not the case. But the very fact of the matter is (let's face it):

Good things happen to good people
Bad things happen to good people
Good things happen to bad people
Bad things happen to bad people

From this information, where all four statements are true, I don't see how I should be expected to believe that divine retribution exists. And, as far as ideas of past-lives are concerned, I think that it's utterly brutal (for me) to believe that children in Africa are starving and dying of malaria because of something they did in their 'past lives.' Not to mention it is largely unproven as to whether or not past lives actually do exist or not.

[wolfjan1]

I think a bit like Tabby. What a person puts out in to the universal flow seems to come back to them, good or bad. A kindness for a kindness, anger for anger. Building up positive or negative energy inside your self tends to bring on or exacerbate illnesses. Perhaps working with positive energies helps one to heal more quickly and completely. "Do no harm" being a VERY important factor, Wiccans tend to work on the positive side and use karma as an example. Of course, I could be wrong. i still try to do no harm.
Merry evening to all.

[Jessica]

Total agreement, Xirian. I too believe in consequences, but I don't believe there is some cosmic force that's going to bitch-slap me because I bind/curse/hex someone.

I believe in reincarnation, but I still don't believe in karma; my path isn't an eastern one, so why try to make it fit? My actions in this life won't affect my next life, which is essentially what karma is for.

I tend to have similar thoughts. I believe in reincarnation, but only the reincarnation of energy. I don't happen to believe that energy is good or bad and therefore whether I was bad in this life has no bearing on whether the energy that comes from my body is bad or good. It just is energy and will be useful to the entities that need it when I pass on.

Verthandi and Xirian sum up my opinion.

[Meadhbh]

No, well I don't anyway. There is a karma-like action in the universe but that is a personal choice. It is karma in the way that you reap what you sow. Its not karma in the way that it only effects you in the way you think it should. If you feel you were a horrible person in your last life then you'll take steps to make up for it in your next. However if you thought you were the kindest most wonderful person that there you will not choose a life that allows to make up for wrongs you didn't feel you caused.

[Rudas Starblaze]

Um... where's the category for "Not no, but hell no!!!"? :hehehehe:


i agree totaly with Rick!

[Amythyst]

I do believe in Karma, but that doesn't mean I would hesitate to get down and do some foot stompin', dirty, dark, witchcraft if the circumstances called for it or if I had reached my limit with certain persons.

[CheshireEyes]

Can't speak for everyone, only myself, I believe in karma...

[SylverStar]

I don't believe in karma in the Wiccan sense...and I consider myself a witch.

[Ninjakitten]

I'm a Christian and a witch, and I've become too jaded by people getting away with crap for me to believe that there's karma and Divine justice.

[IvyWitch]

I was going to say do all witches believe in karma, but i know some people use different words to describe themselves (sorcerer, wizard, mage, shaman, etc), but this is something i wanted to know, since i've seen a lot of people say things about karma whenever they work magic or whatever, and at first i thought it might only be wiccans (as it is a part of wiccan belief), but i've noticed a lot of witches and others who talk about karma.

Also do all wiccan's believe in karma or the 3 fold law?

Thanks.

I don't believe in karma.....or rather that is to say that I don't believe in the modern watered down new-age version of the Hindi or Buddhist Karmic system.

Even if I did believe in a law or return of some sort, since I am not following a Hindu or Buddhist path I wouldn't call it Karma.

[acorn elf]

Eh. Haven't thought about it, really-doesn't concern me. I guess I haven't been up to anything naughty :)

[maphdet]

For me personally I do believe in Karma.
And in karmatic magic (if there is such a thing).
In other words, Any magic I decide to do, I will
have to be aware that it will come back to me. Even if
I am doing magic for a 'good' cause, I will still have a payment to make
of some kind, somewhere along the way.

OR Something like that.

[Ninjakitten]

For me personally I do believe in Karma.
And in karmatic magic (if there is such a thing).
In other words, Any magic I decide to do, I will
have to be aware that it will come back to me. Even if
I am doing magic for a 'good' cause, I will still have a payment to make
of some kind, somewhere along the way.

OR Something like that.


Kind of like "no good deed goes unpunished"? I guess I can think of my own karma being like that :)

[Romani Vixen]

I do believe in something similar to Karma.

It's important to understand that what most Neo-Pagans call Karma, isn't. Karma is a very specific part of Hinduism, and it works in a particular manner. What Neo-Pagans call Karma is similar, and still is a system of return, but it isn't karma. I may be doing the semantics thing, but I don't feel that it is fair to Hinduism to take one little aspect of it, change the way that it works, but still keep the name. Karma is so intertwined with Dharma and the Caste system... that without acnowledging those things, it isn't Karma. If we, as Neo-Pagans, borrow things from other cultures, we need to honor and respect those cultures as much as possible.

I believe that the universe will balance itself out. I believe that what you put out into the universe will return to you. That may or may not happen in this lifetime.

[Luminessence]

I don't really believe in karma. I believe that what you send out is what you get back, but I believe that mostly what happened in our lives is influenced by what we're supposed to be learning, more than good and bad things we've done in previous lifetimes.