Gnostic beliefs

[David19]

Could someone help me out with Gnostic Christian beliefs, as i'm a bit confused about it. I know that Jesus dad is considered an unknowable god or something and that there's Sophia, and that Yahweh is considered evil or just power hungry (i more lean to see Yahweh as not good or evil, just a bit hungry for power, maybe for good ends, although i'm not Gnostic Christian), but i'm confused about what Gnostic's believe about Jesus, do they believe that Jesus was the son of god or, i've read some sites, that say, Jesus was an supernatural being/spirit that entered the body of a child and then left at the crucifixion or something like that.

Also does Gnostic Christianity believe in other gods, since i read on a few sites that, they believed there were many gods with their own realms (like the Norse, Celtic, Egyptian, etc) and where did Yahweh fit in (or if there are any Gnostic Christian's here, what do you believe about Yahweh).

And finally are there did Gnostic Christian's practice magic or are there any now that practice magic (and if so, what kind was or is used).

Anyway, thanks for any help.

[shuvanilu]

Phew! This could take a while! Well let me at least take the small amout of time I've got to answer the first part of the question...or at least try to. I'm drawn to Sophia, personally, and while I don't consider myself exclusively "Christopagan", I was raised Mormon (not a member for many years though) and still believe that the biblical tales, particulary when taken in an esoteric context, figure in perfectly well with my Craft. I guess I'm with Joseph Cambell where he says that Jesus is a perfectly good example of the dying-sacrificial/resurrected godman archetype. OK---now I'm going off in a whole different direction than your question (I do that sometimes...there's so much to say!) Needless to say, when I came upon Gnosticism in my studies, I found it absolutely fascinating. I don't agree with ALL of it, (much as I don't agree with ALL of ANY religion), but there are many elements of it that really grip me. OK---Yahweh...where to start, where to start....First off, there are many different sects of Gnostics (kinda' like the difference bewteen Catholic/Baptist/Mormon...or Wicca/Asatru/Druid). I don't know all of them right off hand, but some are the Cathars, the Valentinians, the Essenes, Manichaean, Mandaean, Hermetic, Sethian, Coptic, Ebionites....Geez, I'm most familiar with Cathar, Valentinian and Essene thought I think. There is also straight Jewish Gnositcism---Read The Book of Baruch where it is similar to The Zohar in that Yahweh is the Father and Elohim the Mother. OK---there I go again...on another brain stream. Back on track: The origin of the gods, in particular Yahweh. I've been studying this for a couple of years, but it's still hard to wrap my brain around, but I'll give defining it a whirl...In the beginning, the was The All (or The Unknwon God, The Highest One, The Great Mystery, God of Light, Parent Spirit(s)). The male principal existed for eterities with a female principle called the Ennoia (Thought). From their union, two archetypes were brought forth: Mind (male) and Truth (female). THen these two brought forth the Aeons (roughly speaking, kind-of like angels...) in male/female pairs. The Aeons filled the Highest Realm, known as The Pleroma, or fullness of God (not to be seen as distinctly apart from The All, but symbolic abstractions. The lowest/youngest of The Aeons were Sophia (Wisdom) and Christ. Some say out of fear from being separated from The All, some say out of rebellion a jealousy (those who believed that only the Mind/Male could comprehend/behold the Father), and some say by complete accident, Sophia brought forth another being, without her male counterpart (Christ) or the consent of The All, because she was so filled with passion to behold The All again---it was created through her passion and the four elements. It was a flawed emination though, known as The Demiurge. Demiurge roughly translates to "craftsman" or "architect". So the creator of the material realm. She was ashamed of what she had done, so she wraps the Demiurge in a cloud throne. He is completely unaware of his own mother, or any other being for that matter, because he is isolated, and therefore beieves that he is the only God. Hence, Yahweh---The Creator who believes he's the only One. It's a pretty sad story really. Anyway, in the Apocryphon of John, he talks about the Demiurge having 3 names: Yalbobaoth, Saklas and Samael. Yaldobaoth means "child, come here" (sophia trying to tell Yahweh that He is not alone?), Saklas means "fool", and Samael means "blind god". So some equate him with an evil being, Cain, even Satan. To me personally, it just means that he is completely oblivious if not egotistical. But the Gnostics did not see the material world as a good thing really. Their aim was to attin gnosis (knowledge) so that they could be reunited with The All and the Pleroma. Christ then comes to Sophia (he loves her) and her see the light again, bringing her out of her sadness. Anyway, Christ then enters the man Jesus on earth so that he can bring humans gnosis so that they can also return to the Light. (It is interesting to note that many believe Christ entered Jesus's body at baptism, hence the symbolism of Sophia, the dove, being present there). Many also believe that the physical body representation of Sophia was Mary Magdelene, explaining then also why she was Yeshua's Koinonos(sp), or special companion (wife, if you ask me). So here the are on earth, Knowledge and Wisdom, bringing Gnosis to the humans. Now as far as The Demiurge being evil---I don't know. It is said that even He has the Divine Spark, pneuma, or spirit---as He is of Sophia. He's just ignorant and flawed and therefore created a flawed world.

Now I'm forgetting the rest of your question, and I don't want to risk hitting my back arrow for fear of loosing everything I just typed! I think it was somethign to do with The Gnostics practicing magic? Well, the original Gnostics, alla Nag Hamadi library, were of a more mystica/esoteric nature than your average Christian/Jew. But as far as spells? I think you're thinking further up the time line. The Knights Templar, The Hermetics, The Rosicrucians, Zoroastrians, The Free Masons...are all influenced by Gnosticism. So yes, much of the Occult knowledge can be traced back to Gnosticism. OK---my brain is starting to hurt! Help me out guys! Fill in all the stuff I'm missing! Until then, try www.wikipedia.org my favorite place to look stuff up (along with www.sacred-texts.com). Then search "Gnostics", "Sophia", "Demiurge", and "Hermeticism" and see where you get. Happy reading!---:awilly: My eyes hurt.---shuvanilu

[shuvanilu]

Oh---and pardon all of my typos. Radiskull tired.

[LordHelmet]

here, I don't know as much about gnosticism, but that might make it easier for me to describe it in a way someone else can understand.

The gnostics where various offshoots of christianity that didn't fit into the accepted version way back in the day (like first century). They weren't called gnostics and they weren't connected to each other.

Shuvi listed some examples of christian traditions that were branded 'Gnostic'. Most gnostic groups saw there teachings as symbolic, rather then litteral, probably the biggest reason they were such a threat to orthodox christianity. They also tended to have reversed roles of different major chars. For instance Jehova the enemy, or bad kid and Sophia his mother, or Jehova and el maried, or Jehova and sophia married, or Jesus and Mary Magdalyn a couple. This probably had more to do with how it added up for their symbolic uses then historical recolection. Think about it, if it's all just a way to explain an idea, who cares if you reverse the roles to make a better version. Naturaly this kind of thinking didn't fit well with the church fathers.

Many of the gnostics teachings were magickly inclined. Much of their magickal tradition has been carried on by different groups. Like Shuvi was saying.

[cartweel]

I don't mean to bitch and moan, but please... please use paragraph breaks of some sort. It would be a lot easier for any reader (and probably for any writer) to keep track of what's going on. It also helps with the organization of ideas. Also, it's polite. And less damned scary.

Thanks!

[LordHelmet]

re paragraph breaks idea: I'm not sure if that was aimed at me to but I know what you mean in reference to shuvis post. Yea, it happens when your thoughts are about as orginized as shuvis were.

Actualy I understand completly why that happened. If you notice she points it out through out the post. Trying to understand a topic like gnosticism is a freaking brain twist. While the different sects have their own belief systems they interelate like the sentences of a discordian. Yep!

Different Gnostic sects had symbolism and ideas that turned eachother inside out. Ex:
Jehova (yewah), he was the jewish high god (God) for the people of jerusalem. However, do not confuse this with isreal, as they are to seperat people... or at least I think they were. Historicly it's the only logical answer.
Elohim, Top god of the Isrealites (worshipers of El). He was not a war god like Jehova, he is also 'God' in the bible as well as 'the lord'(I think). Elohim is a lot nicer then Jehova, most of the time.

One might say that Jehova is the bad guy and El is the nice guy, and apply that to god and satan. Then again one might associate Satan with el and say that satan is opposed to the 'Evil Jehovah'. Why not?

There's also a few more factors with just these 2. Elohim can also be 'The Gods'. Elohim could represent polytheism. In a way he could represent the bridge between mono and polytheism, being the unity of many gods. these gods would be the 'Angels' (Ang Els). But El and Jehova can be very well opposed ideas. Is it starting to get complicated?

There's more to the whole Jehova and Elohim thing. A lot more. Add that I Haven't figured in anyone else. We still have Ashera who's known in greek as Sophia, however they have differences between them.

Then again, there's some differences between versions of either that carry over to the other. Then there's Jesus, Joashua, Samual, Sammeal, Belial, the serpant, the dragan, other dragans in the old testemant, the different apostales, Mary, Mary magdalyn, John and John the baptist who could be mary magdalyn, Jesuses brother James that could be associated with John the baptist, Paul, Paul of tarsus who could be the same guy, Peter, Simon who was probably made to be peter in the bible. Do you think I'm done with this list? HELL NO! I just don't feel like putting any more down.

With all these people having complicated relations to one another, and having complicating roles in the whole matter, things get real complex! I hate it.

Well hopefuly this gives whoever you are reading this stuff a better idea of what gnosticsm was all about. Edit: Or at least what understanding it is like...

[zionwood]

Actually i'm pretty sure that the word "angel" came from the Greek word for "messenger."

[Agaliha]

You asked this before...about Gnosticism, I think.
Did you read though those links I gave you before?
Christian, Hebrew and Gnostic Goddesses links (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=103102&highlight=gnostic)
And Here: http://www.mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2150193&postcount=4
There might be something in those that can help. Especially the second link.

[David19]

Actually i'm pretty sure that the word "angel" came from the Greek word for "messenger."

Actually, i think the 'angel' comes from a Greek word, but that a translation of a Hebrew word, in Hebrew, i think the word for messanger was used to describe any messanger, whether they were human or supernatural beings, i think the Greeks, when they were translating something from Hebrew, made a distinction between a supernatural being (angel) and a human messanger.

But the actual supernatural type of angel (like Michael, etc) is Hebrew in origin.

[Agaliha]

origins of "angel"--- {dictionary.com}

[Middle English, from Old English engel, or Old French angele both from Late Latin angelus, from Late Greek angelos, from Greek, messenger.]

***

The English word originated from Latin, angelus, which is itself derived from the Greek ἄγγελος, ángelos, meaning "messenger" (double gamma "γγ" is pronounced "ng" in Greek). The closest Hebrew word for angel is מלאך, mal'ach Hebrew word #4397 in Strong's, also meaning "messenger". "Angel" is also used in the English Version of the Bible for the following three Hebrew words:

אביר, abbir Hebrew word #47 in Strong's, Psalms 78:25 (lit. "mighty")
אלהים, Elohim Hebrew word #430 in Strong's, Psalms 8:5
the obscure שנאן, shin'an Hebrew word #8136 in Strong's, in Psalms 68:17Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel) "Angel"

No idea if that helps or not.

[shuvanilu]

I appologize for my original looooooong, un-broken post. As Lord Helmet said, I was in "stream of consciousness" mode, and I just kept writing as the thoughts came---and I didn't have time to come back and edit.

I just wanted to add in a little about the origin of the word "angel". As Agaliha posted, it means "messenger of God". I just wanted to add that any time you see a name ending in "el" in scripture, it's a suffix that means *roughly* "of God", as "El" is one of the oldest names of God. Hence Micha-El, Rapha-El, Gabri-El, Dani-El etc...Just thought I'd add that.---shuvanilu

[Ninjakitten]

I just wanted to add in a little about the origin of the word "angel". As Agaliha posted, it means "messenger of God". I just wanted to add that any time you see a name ending in "el" in scripture, it's a suffix that means *roughly* "of God", as "El" is one of the oldest names of God. Hence Micha-El, Rapha-El, Gabri-El, Dani-El etc...Just thought I'd add that.---shuvanilu


That is so cool! I never noticed that before (though I knew about the meaning of El).

<runs off to find out the meanings of the words "ang", "micha", "rapha", "gabri", and "dani">

[Agaliha]

Let me know what you find, Ninja (if you do look it up). I'm curious! :)

[Ninjakitten]

Gabriel = "warrior of God" or "man of God"
Michael = "Who is like God"
Daniel = "God is my judge"
Angel = "messenger of God"
Rapha (couldn't find Raphael) = "tall"... I guess Raphael is the "tall of God"?

[Agaliha]

So then Gabri must mean "warrior of" if "-el" just means "God/of God" right?

[Garm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_names_referring_to_El#El_theophory

[shuvanilu]

Nice link. Ahhhhh, Wikipedia......:) ---shuvanilu

[cesara]

I realize this thread is a little old, but I thought I'd make a small correction if I can.

The gnostics where various offshoots of christianity that didn't fit into the accepted version way back in the day (like first century). They weren't called gnostics and they weren't connected to each other.

You are correct in that they weren't called gnostics, however they were not an offshoot of christianity and, in fact, were pre-christian in origin stemming from Jewish and Hermetic teachings.

[David19]

I realize this thread is a little old, but I thought I'd make a small correction if I can.



You are correct in that they weren't called gnostics, however they were not an offshoot of christianity and, in fact, were pre-christian in origin stemming from Jewish and Hermetic teachings.

Thanks for adding that, so does that mean Gnosticism has its origin in Judaism, or the Palestine area?.

[cesara]

Most certainly in Judaism, specifically Kabbalah. Scholars are, for the most part, in complete agreement. Though there is speculation as to exactly how the influence developed, there is indeed, no question that it did.

From Jewish Origins of Gnosticism (http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/jew_gnostic.htm):

This Gnosticism, against which Philo attacks, came early to Palestine; and the rabbinic polemics against the Minim are directed specifically at such Gnostics. Christian Gnosticism is simply a secondary version of the older Gnosticism' which attached itself to the emergent Christian sect and appropriated for itself the figure of Jesus Christ.

It's long, but a good read if the subject interests you! :)

[David19]

Most certainly in Judaism, specifically Kabbalah. Scholars are, for the most part, in complete agreement. Though there is speculation as to exactly how the influence developed, there is indeed, no question that it did.

From Jewish Origins of Gnosticism (http://www.sullivan-county.com/nf0/nov_2000/jew_gnostic.htm):

This Gnosticism, against which Philo attacks, came early to Palestine; and the rabbinic polemics against the Minim are directed specifically at such Gnostics. Christian Gnosticism is simply a secondary version of the older Gnosticism' which attached itself to the emergent Christian sect and appropriated for itself the figure of Jesus Christ.

It's long, but a good read if the subject interests you! :)



Thanks for the link :).