Kali

[Snapdragon]

Having searched and found no thread specifically devoted to Her, this begins a continuing discussion of and devotion to Kali. It is possible that you only have been exposed to Kali via "Indiana Jones" or possibly "Gunga Din"--both of which, in their different ways, portrayed Her as an evil goddess.

She is the blood-drinker, the harvester of souls, who rules the realm of death; accordingly, She is typically portrayed wielding a sickle and holding one or more severed heads...sometimes with a necklace of skulls or more heads. She is often shown standing or walking atop a supine male figure (Vishnu or Shiva--I often confuse those two). In the Hindu Vedanta, Kali is accounted as having been created by the great goddess Durga, in order to defeat demons who threatened all the gods. Kali was successful...but having destroyed them, Her power and Her fierceness did not just go away...so, to appease Her, in a gesture of loving and reverent submission, Shiva/Vishnu lay down, and She stood upon him. This pacified Her, and so creation was preserved from the unrestrained fury of Kali.

Whew! I'm not a Hindu, but I get the idea--do you? This Lady is a goddess of Power...and to many, She is the preeminent goddess of power. Unsurprisingly, Kali has come to be associated with the power of the feminine, of sexuality and passion. In Wicca, where we honor and "call down" many goddesses and gods, Kali is available to worship and as a meditation upon the nature of life, death, and the sacred. Since Wicca is a religion founded upon the principles of immanence--the sacred being immediately present and manifest--and the primacy of the feminine--in short, "female first"--Kali is a very suitable object of adoration.

I didn't begin my Wiccan path with Kali; it took me roughly two decades to come to Her, and She will be my primary focus until death. You might be interested to visit and view the Sharanya tradition, which unites elements of Wiccan and Hindu worship in veneration of the Dark Goddesses, especially Kali. Their site is located at www.maabatakali.org

I think that's all I'll say for this originating post. Blessed Be!

[Heart of Isis]

Yes, an acquaintance of mine (an HP) just dedicated to Kali at Imbolc. Usually he is dedicated to Isis. Yet for some reason he went with Kali this year. I can tell him he is in for a time with her. He has already experienced her fact that she commanded him to put away all Egyptian goodies and devotions to Isis and her family. It's been very hard for him. Kali does not play well with others. It was hard for me too, I worked with Kali for about two months years ago until I couldn't do it anymore. I respect her of course, but I don't go any further than that. I knew it would be rough going in and I was sort of forced to work with her (Coven thing..I'm glad that's long over). I was Wiccan at the time.
There is a temple of hers near where I live, but I haven't seen it yet. I may still go see it someday though....maybe. Being devoted to Isis as I am, Kali may not relish me visitng one of her temples.

Heart of Isis

[Snapdragon]

I don't think of the god/esses as being in competition with each other; I'm not even sure they are aware of each other. In any case, I'm happy to say that I have not encountered this sort of problem, nor heard of it from anyone else in my 20+ years with Wiccans...until now, in your case. BB.

[Heart of Isis]

I don't think of the god/esses as being in competition with each other; I'm not even sure they are aware of each other. In any case, I'm happy to say that I have not encountered this sort of problem, nor heard of it from anyone else in my 20+ years with Wiccans...until now, in your case. BB.

No, it's not a "competition" aspect at all. It's hard for me to explain, but suffice it to say it's about personality of said Goddess/God. For instance, whether or not Kali is aware of Isis or the Egyptian pantheon at depth remains to be seen. Kali being a Goddess though and technically a triple one at that would be aware of us as humans. Especially if we called on her or acknowledged her, let alone dedicated to her. At that point she would be aware of any other devotions we may have. The thing with Kali is that she demands (so to speak) unmetered attention to her. It's her way and if one wants to work with her one accepts that aspect of her along with the rest. My friend knew that going in, it just didn't mean it would be easier to put away and suspend devotion to Isis and pantheon for him after the time he has spent. All Goddesses and Gods as you know have their little ways about them and we are willing to accept that if we want to dedicate ourselves to them. That's I'm trying to say.

Heart of Isis

[Toby Stimpson]

Any worshipper of Kali though has to see her multiple personas. She is not just the reaper but also the gentle Mata...come to the Eastern Forums board and we discuss kali in depth...theres also been many posts on her already, theres quite a few on this board who worship her. She has been at the top of my pantheon for about three years now and she was my avenue into Sanatan Dharma, and her varying personas can be quite uplifting at times. Although, to be honest there is a lot of culture in her.

Namaste

Tobias

[Snapdragon]

Any worshipper of Kali though has to see her multiple personas. She is not just the reaper but also the gentle Mata...come to the Eastern Forums board and we discuss kali in depth...theres also been many posts on her already, theres quite a few on this board who worship her. She has been at the top of my pantheon for about three years now and she was my avenue into Sanatan Dharma, and her varying personas can be quite uplifting at times. Although, to be honest there is a lot of culture in her.

Namaste

Tobias

I think your last sentence means a great deal, and goes a ways towards diluting your earlier statement about how "each worshipper must..." I'm sympathetic, as you obviously have done some reading and have awareness that Kali is not the evil sorceress of Hollywood movie portrayal. I am aware, on my own behalf, that She is seen as a tender mother by many Hindus.

I'm not a Hindu, though the tradition I favor--Sharanya--appeals to both Wiccans and Hindus who worship Kali. I am not drawn to Her maternal aspect or qualities, but to Her fierce aspect. It is freedom from the Wheel of sensation and the cycle of life-death-rebirth that I long for, and I believe as a Wiccan that the way to worship Kali is in my relationship to female beings and femaleness in general.

I don't care at all what the Vedas say, etc. So, with that hopefully clarifying matters a touch, here is something that I "coincidentally" came across in a book I'm reading, Narcissus and Goldmund, by Hermann Hesse:

In the middle of these thoughts Goldmund suddenly had a vision. It lasted only an instant, a lightning flash: he saw the face of the universal mother, leaning over the abyss of life, with a lost smile that was both beautiful and gruesome. She was looking at birth and death, at flowers, at rustling autumn leaves, at art, at decay.

Everything had the same meaning to the universal mother. Her chilling smile hung above everything like a moon, sad and pensive. The dying carp on the cobblestones of the fish market was as dear to her as Goldmund; she was as fond of the scattered bones of the Viktor who had once tried to steal his gold as she was of his master's proud cool young daughter Lisbeth.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Little Billy]

Having searched and found no thread specifically devoted to Her, this begins a continuing discussion of and devotion to Kali. It is possible that you only have been exposed to Kali via "Indiana Jones" or possibly "Gunga Din"--both of which, in their different ways, portrayed Her as an evil goddess.


Well, if she isn't evil her worshippers have been, historically.

Google "Thugee".

[Toby Stimpson]

I think your last sentence means a great deal, and goes a ways towards diluting your earlier statement about how "each worshipper must..." I'm sympathetic, as you obviously have done some reading and have awareness that Kali is not the evil sorceress of Hollywood movie portrayal. I am aware, on my own behalf, that She is seen as a tender mother by many Hindus.

I'm not quite sure how it dilutes seeing her multiple personas. I mean the indian culture is so varied but really there is a lot of kali which is culturally driven...and a lot of what kali is that is socially driven. Her multiple personas, as religion and culture are practicly inseperable from religion...and in thsi way Kali's multiple aspects and personas are reflected by the diversity of the religious traditions. I don't really see how that dilutes my earlier statement...I think for me, atleast...its important to reaize how diverse she really is becasue in many ways she is more appreciated through her many aspects. Blah Im tired must go haha.

Namaste

Tobias

[brymble]

Well, if she isn't evil her worshippers have been, historically.

Google "Thugee".

Woah there, Billy, that's a pretty broad brush you're painting with!

Saying that the worshippers of Kali are all like the Thugee is like saying all Christians are Satanists! (Or, for that matter, abortion-clinic-bombing fundamentalists.) The Thugee were a tiny, off-the-wall sect of Kali-worshippers, who, quite frankly, didn't "get it".

Kali continues to have many worshippers worldwide. To those who are unfamiliar (or misinterpreting) Her ways, She appears evil and bloodthirsty, but to those who understand Her, She is the loving, compassionate All-Mother, bringer of peace, freedom and healing, because what She ultimately destroys is the illusions of ego.

She has a huge following worldwide (I know that the community of artisans who make the JBL/Sacred Source altar statues is a community of Kali worshippers, and they are most certainly not "evil", or in any way like the Thugee.) not just in India. She is one of the most widely worshipped and greatly loved deities in the world.

My ex bought a wonderful book on Kali when we were naming our daughter (Shakti.) I don't remember the title because I left it with him when I moved out, but I can find out if anyone's interested.

In many ways, She is not unlike your understanding of Eris, who, historically, doesn't have the most lily-white reputation Herself.

C'mon, man, I know you can do better research than that._tsk_

[Little Billy]

In many ways, She is not unlike your understanding of Eris, who, historically, doesn't have the most lily-white reputation Herself.


My what?

LB,
Isn't a Discordian, and has been giving them crap about Eris-the-Monster for YEARS. Oh, and there were PLENTY of Thugee.

[brymble]

*throws up hands*

fine. whatever. there were plenty of Thugee. If you say so. My sources say different, but half of them are in a box in Rochester in my ex's appartment. Even if there were, that doesn't change the fact that, in Hinduism, the murderous Thugee were *not* what Kali was/is about. Saying that Her worshippers were all "historically evil" is just plain ignorant.

[Snapdragon]

It's pretty clear you did no research, LB--just an off-the-wall "provocative" commentary from you. Disappointing.

[brymble]

Can anyone (who actually has done research) tell me anything about Kali and shakti, in relation to Kundalini yoga? I'm a new student of yoga, but I just had a revelation about Kali and her destructive aspect - a few minutes before stumbling upon this thread, actually - that was somewhat world-rocking.

[Little Billy]

It's pretty clear you did no research, LB--just an off-the-wall "provocative" commentary from you. Disappointing.

Sure I did. Nice of you to make an insulting comment without cause, though.

Later.

[Little Billy]

Can anyone (who actually has done research)


Nice.

Google William Henry Sleeman.

Later.

[brymble]

Is that all you've got? Did you do any research into Hinduism and the actual worship of Kali or did you stop at the experiences of the British military during their occupation?

Really, it's nice that you know how to use google. We're proud of you. But we're discussing a Goddess whose worship today is more widespread than Mary's, as stated before, one of the most widely worshipped deities in the world. She has millions of followers in India and elsewhere, that are nothing like the Thugee. The Thugee are to Kali-worship what pre-Laveyan Satanists are to Christianity. To paint them with the same brush is ignorant and insulting.

[Toby Stimpson]

With all due respect, Little Billy didnt say that all worshipers of Kali were Thuggee...he said "Well, if she isn't evil her worshippers have been, historically." I dont see that as saying all worshipers have been...but the Thugee unfortunalty are intrinsicly linkd to kali's worship as they were quite renouned.

OH kundalini Yoga Brymble...I jsut saw your posty in my forum in Paths but I have to say soemthing here. of what I know soemtimes Kali is conceptualized as the serpent Goddess at the base of the spine that through Kundalini Yoga awakens and slithers up the spine to the other Chakras ul;timatly awakening the crown. however this is metaphorical more than anything else.

Namaste

Tobias

[Little Billy]

With all due respect, Little Billy didnt say that all worshipers of Kali were Thuggee...he said "Well, if she isn't evil her worshippers have been, historically."

Careful...if you disagree, you will be branded as "ignorant", etc.

[Philosophia]

Some sites (yes, I used google, and yes, I am good at it :D ) on thugees:
http://www.sepiamutiny.com/sepia/archives/000322.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuggee
http://www.blackmask.com/books25c/thug.htm

[Snapdragon]

Next thing you know, someone will be telling us in shocked tones about Xianity and the Inquisition. You can find it on google, you know.

For those who are here to discuss and explore Kali, though, I think we can easily dismiss the historical aberration of an acknowledged cult with no remaining following.

An email from Amazon asking me to review one of the books on Kali I recently purchased from them reminds me to commend these two books to you (for those of us who read scholarly literature, that is):

Encountering Kali: in the margins, at the center, in the west. R. McDermott and J. Kripal, Eds. U of Cal Press, 2003.

Oh Terrifying Mother: Sexuality, Violence and Worship of the Goddess Kali, by Sarah Caldwell. Oxford U Press, 1999.

I've read little of either, but I'm confident both will be worthwhile. Caldwell's is especially impressive for the perspective she has about anthropologists who go as "outsiders" to record the "natural" responses of the chosen objects of study...and thereby inevitably alter/affect the behavior of those being studied. Part of her book includes her own responses and how the work transformed her as she went along. Commendable.

postscript
I just finished reading Narcissus and Goldmund, one of Hermann Hesse's books. There was repeated mention of the universal mother sprinkled throughout the book, and it proved to be the major theme--which suprised me. Some of these extracts appear to me relevant to this conversation about Kali.

On the last page, the dying Goldmund speaks to his friend:

But how will you die when your time comes, Narcissus, since you have no mother? Without a mother, one cannot love. Without a mother, one cannot die.

[KaliHobbit]

I'm not a Hindu, though the tradition I favor--Sharanya--appeals to both Wiccans and Hindus who worship Kali. I am not drawn to Her maternal aspect or qualities, but to Her fierce aspect. It is freedom from the Wheel of sensation and the cycle of life-death-rebirth that I long for, and I believe as a Wiccan that the way to worship Kali is in my relationship to female beings and femaleness in general.


Hi Snapdragon,

When you say the tradition you favor is Sharanya, do you mean Sharanya, the Maabatakali Misson in San Francisco? I'm an initiate and member of the Mandir in SF. The tradition itself is called Sha'can, Sharanya's the name we used to differentiate from our Sister Mandir in India. Anyway, how did you come across us? This is the first time anyone else has mentioned Sharanya on MW (to the best of my knowledge).

A quick note about the Thuggees. However small (or perhaps large) their true numbers may have been (they've become such a part of folk culture we'll probably never know)they represent a very real aspect of Maa's worship...blood and sacrifice. How we choose to incorporate that into our practice it's of entirely personal discretion. One of the challenges of worshipping Maa (in my humble opinion) is learning to see her through the duality. The Thuggee connection is a great reminder that no matter how motherly She is, Kali is also beautiful, bloodthirsty and wild! She is the ultimate paradox. They are just an extreme example of the myriads of ways She is worshipped. Also, I think the whole India Jones representation was just Maa's way of blasting into the West. Honestly, bad press is good press right? She trusts all of her western Devotees enough to educate people about who she really is, she got her name out there and now it's up to us:)
Not sure if any of that was really relevant to the conversation, but that's my my two cents.

[Snapdragon]

I surely don't agree that murder is a way to "worship" anything--other than a deserved jail sentence.

That aside and in answer to your main question, it's true I've come to think of the tradition as Sharanya, but you're right, it's Sha'can. I have been aware of Sha'can for a number of years and have been in contact with Lady Chandra for that long. I was a moderator at the Daughters of Kali group for a time. Chandra has told me she's going to India again soon and will bring me back a Kali image that I've discussed with her. I'm looking forward to it.

Blessed Be.

[Philosophia]

Next thing you know, someone will be telling us in shocked tones about Xianity and the Inquisition. You can find it on google, you know.

You probably could. I guess you can probably find a lot of disinformation out there, but it does not

For those who are here to discuss and explore Kali, though, I think we can easily dismiss the historical aberration of an acknowledged cult with no remaining following.

Really? Are you certain that the "Thugee" cult doesn't still exist?

An email from Amazon asking me to review one of the books on Kali I recently purchased from them reminds me to commend these two books to you (for those of us who read scholarly literature, that is):

And there are a lot who do (including myself).

But how will you die when your time comes, Narcissus, since you have no mother? Without a mother, one cannot love. Without a mother, one cannot die.

Without a mother, one cannot hate. Without a mother, one cannot live. (Just my added opinion).

[KaliHobbit]

I surely don't agree that murder is a way to "worship" anything--other than a deserved jail sentence.

That aside and in answer to your main question, it's true I've come to think of the tradition as Sharanya, but you're right, it's Sha'can. I have been aware of Sha'can for a number of years and have been in contact with Lady Chandra for that long. I was a moderator at the Daughters of Kali group for a time. Chandra has told me she's going to India again soon and will bring me back a Kali image that I've discussed with her. I'm looking forward to it.

Blessed Be.

I don't think I said I personally saw murder as a way to worship, so it would seem we feel the same on that subject. My point is that (again my opinion) everything is Maa, regardless of how I feel about it. The Thuggee cult has probably been blown way out of proportion, and while I obviously don't agree with anything they stood for, I look my discomfort as a catalyst for transformation and understanding of Her.
On a side note, I'm sure Chandra will bring you back something amazing. I had the blessing of going to India with her last year and hope to return soon.

[Snapdragon]

Anything you'd ever care to say about that visit--or about the Temple, etc.--would be of interest.

Jai Kali maa! Blessed Be.

[David19]

I'm not Hindu or a follower of Kali, but from what i've heard of her, she does seem to be a cool goddess, one that wouldn't take any bs from anyone (human, god or demon, i think Hindu's have demons don't they?). She sounds a bit like Lilith, a Hebrew goddess, who won't bow to anyone, and does what she likes.

[Toby Stimpson]

mhm, I agree...shes exactly like Ambaji that way. Yep Hinduism do have lower forms of life called 'Asuras' who are the evil ones. They come in many different forms and can either be malevolent or ambivalent.

Namaste

Tobias

[Snapdragon]

I look [think you meant 'took'] my discomfort as a catalyst for transformation and understanding of Her.


That's an excellent point and insight. I just wanted to acknowledge that.

[Kalika]

There are actually a bunch of threads here on her. :)

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=38653&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=36296&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=85893&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=109268&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=95605&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=68898&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=71775&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=61408&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=61410&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=52402&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=11645&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=27941&highlight=Kali

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=7901&highlight=Kali

Quite a few have some good info in the pages. :) (Sorry, didn't have time to post the individual link names rather than just the thread)

[Snapdragon]

Whew! Thanks for that, Kalika! I'm still trying to figure out how my original search for 'Kali' turned up not one thread. Well, it's brought me to here.

Feeling pretty good about how this thread is going, I'll share a little lighthearted Kali tune with you (someone else has undoubtedly thought of this one):

Well, hel-lo Kali, well, hel-lo, Kali,
It's so nice to have You back where You belong;
You're lookin' swell, Kali, I can tell, Kali,
You're still goin', you're still growin', you're still goin' strong...

You know the song, "Hello Dolly," of course. Anyway, thanks again Kalika...I've dipped into about six of those threads thusfar and will look more in the future.

Blessed Be.

[Kalika]

Whew! Thanks for that, Kalika! I'm still trying to figure out how my original search for 'Kali' turned up not one thread. Well, it's brought me to here.

Feeling pretty good about how this thread is going, I'll share a little lighthearted Kali tune with you (someone else has undoubtedly thought of this one):

Well, hel-lo Kali, well, hel-lo, Kali,
It's so nice to have You back where You belong;
You're lookin' swell, Kali, I can tell, Kali,
You're still goin', you're still growin', you're still goin' strong...

You know the song, "Hello Dolly," of course. Anyway, thanks again Kalika...I've dipped into about six of those threads thusfar and will look more in the future.

Blessed Be.

I had to do an advanced search to get them to come up. :) I knew there was at least 2 though, because I had started a couple of threads about her.

Your thread is going well though... lets keep it up!

[Toby Stimpson]

We've had quite a few fun kali threads...good to relive soem of them :).

That reminds me, I was down on Gerrard and Coxwell in Toronto a few days ago and I saw an english copy of the Srimad Devi Bhagavatam...now I am only familiar with the epics, the Upanishads, and the vedas...only now looking at other scriptures (I pickd up a nice copy of Shiv Purana) but I was wondering if anyone could just tell me a little about it. i have tried to do websearches but came up with about 1000 ISKON sites on the Srimad Bhagavad. Any insights from the desis here?? :D

Namaste

Tobias

[Snapdragon]

One of the things that happens in the transaction called 'worship' is that learning takes place. I think that's one of the reasons a person is drawn to a particular god and not another, or moves on from one to another--some things will be learned from this Power and no other.

Several things strongly suggested themselves to me today about Kali--how Her leading has resulted in my coming to this board and what I've found here. A lot of the learning is about chaos, to which Kali is very much akin: the Power of breaking apart, of ex-stasis, of separation and also of identity. She is not one for merging with others, but instead of having Her way with them--or else!

I saw a red, burning face today, and it caught me, this realization about chaos, something I thought I was seeing in someone else but then realized is speaking to me. What does She want me to learn about chaos--its passion, its difficulty, its danger? I'm not sure chaos is akin to freedom; Kali is free in a sense, but She has Her own nature, and everything I've ever known of Her is that She lives in peril of Her own excess--not that She would mind the universe's coming to an end, so long as it was a result of Her own, unrestrained dancing!

How the heck did I ever end up with such a "heavy" dame? This Lady demands...everything! Maybe that's why She has proved to be the destination of my travels on the Wiccan rail; after Her, who else could possibly be left?

The following extract is from Encounting Kali: in the margins, at the center, in the west; this is taken from the first essay, which is by David R. Kinsley, simply entitled Kali:

Iconographic representations of Kali and Shiva nearly always show Kali as dominant. She is usually standing or dancing on Shiva's prone body, and when the two are depicted in sexual intercourse, she is shown above him. Although Shiva is said to have tamed Kali in the myth of the dance contest, it seems clear that she was never finally subdued by him, and she is most popularly represented as a being who is uncontrollable and more apt to provoke Shiva to dangerous activity than to be controlled by him.

xxxxxxxxxx

Blessed Be.

[Kalika]

How the heck did I ever end up with such a "heavy" dame? This Lady demands...everything! Maybe that's why She has proved to be the destination of my travels on the Wiccan rail; after Her, who else could possibly be left?



:hugz:

One thing to keep in mind is that she'll never demand more than you can give... she's usually just giving you a nice big shove in the direction you need to go. ;)

[Snapdragon]

:hugz:

One thing to keep in mind is that she'll never demand more than you can give... she's usually just giving you a nice big shove in the direction you need to go. ;)

I went away for a few hours, and that clarified this a bit for me. It makes sense that She would not demand more than I can give, but I'm not sure that would even stop with my life. Perhaps She would require me to be reborn in order to learn something further. This is my greatest fear--I don't want to continue in any way, shape, or form, not even if it be in the realm of the gods. I want the Wheel to stop.

Kali is not in the business of giving me what I want! She's not exactly the Good Humor Wagon of the pantheon; I can see quite clearly what She is to Shiva, and that speaks for itself!

So far as the nice and big shove goes...well, that may very well be an expression of what you are currently feeling. :hearthear I say this neither in a spirit of refutation nor of correction...but of recognizing differences. I can't imagine two people's experience of Kali being symmetrical; if there's an asymmetrical goddess around, I think it's got to be Her.

[Kalika]

I went away for a few hours, and that clarified this a bit for me. It makes sense that She would not demand more than I can give, but I'm not sure that would even stop with my life. Perhaps She would require me to be reborn in order to learn something further. This is my greatest fear--I don't want to continue in any way, shape, or form, not even if it be in the realm of the gods. I want the Wheel to stop.

Kali is not in the business of giving me what I want! She's not exactly the Good Humor Wagon of the pantheon; I can see quite clearly what She is to Shiva, and that speaks for itself!

So far as the nice and big shove goes...well, that may very well be an expression of what you are currently feeling. :hearthear I say this neither in a spirit of refutation nor of correction...but of recognizing differences. I can't imagine two people's experience of Kali being symmetrical; if there's an asymmetrical goddess around, I think it's got to be Her.

Hmm. I honestly don't think that she would ask that... but I could be wrong. I know that the majority of people tend to see her as a bloodthirsty goddess, by which your soul could fall into that very category. I hope that she wouldn't... we'd like you to stick around for a bit. :D

You're right in saying that any two peoples experience is going to be different when it comes to her. :) It is pretty universal, however, that she is a pusher... she tends to push most where you don't necessarily know you need to be pushed. ;) And often where you think you don't want to be pushed. She tends to "adopt" those who need her most.

A trait her children tend to have in common is stubborness. ;) (As I am an obvious example... :lol: ) We don't like to be pushed around, and are often the ones that are most in need of it.

She may not give you what you want directly - but I would hazard to guess that if you look closely, she gives you the means to get what you want - you just have to put yourself out there in order to get it. That's one of the things I like most about her - nothing I've ever wanted has been handed to me on a silver platter, but with her guidance, I am usually able to obtain it through my own means. ;) Sometimes I just need a not-so-subtle push in the right direction.

:hugz: She's definitely demanding, and often hard to live with... but its well worth the ride. I have a feeling you'll learn alot. I know I have... and I know that I'll continue to learn as long as she stays with me.

I hope that you have as enlightening of an experience! :lol:

[Snapdragon]

Gods present themselves variously, depending on what a worshipper brings to them in the way of intention, understanding, and desire. Kali is a good example of that, since She is very different to different people, both respective to individuals and cultures. I've read some more books about Her since last posting here, and this seems to be the main point.

I might add that it's useful to read widely, since some things that are held as knowledge appear, on further (re)search, to be highly questionable. An example is that of Thuggee, which "everyone knows" was a cult of Kali-worshippers. Not so, according to my accumulating store of information on the subject. There was never a specific priest, temple, or organized sect of any kind that corresponded to the (hazily defined) Thuggee phenomenon. What there was in abundance, was British colonialist racism, which especially focused with horror and contempt on Kali. It appears that the "Thug" cult was the manufacture of this Western imagination.

I am drawn to Her black aspect because it is Her as destroyer and also as predominant in the realm of death, that fits most closely with my karmic concerns. Let this world be burned away, and let there be no other. Hail Kali, liberator!

[celticfire]

i just wanted to throw in (after reading this great thread), that I have experienced a side to Kali Ma not really discussed. yes, she is all mentioned above, but as tobias said, there are many personas to her.

i'll begin by saying i am primarily a devotee to Pele, although i am very 'celtic' in practice...and at Imbolc before last, I asked her to give me my heart's desire. to me, that was the job of my dreams...to finally settle in one realm of work and be content. NOT! she gave me that which i didn't know i needed and definitely hadn't thought of wanting...i conceived my daughter that night. during my pregnancy, Pele was still near to me but i had dark dreams that often made it very hard for me to sleep at all. over a period of weeks, this went on...it was nearing Beltane when i found some 'peace'. i slept one day during the day for a long, long while...fitful dreams and then in the darkness there were many arms about me. i wasn't afraid of the arms, their strength offered security and sheltered me from my dreams. but i knew it wasn't a man because it was the body of a woman...tall for a woman, muscular, but not hard. she was protecting me and for the first time in weeks, i slept soundly.

when i woke up, i wrote it all down in my journal/bos. i talked to my hp's about it the next day as well. they weren't sure of what to make of it. a few days later, i was watching discovery or something along those lines and it was discussing the Gods/Goddesses of Indian/Hindu culture. as soon as i saw the images (paintings and statues) i had my suspicions. i began to read what i could find on Kali Ma and she would come to me when i would have bad dreams again...and even when waking, when i wasn't well, i could feel her presence with me, surrounding me...giving me her strength. i had a few complications with my pregnancy and she was there...my protector.

that is how she came to me and how i still have her in my life. Pele is my passion, creation, vitality...and Kali Ma is my protection, solice and strength. Kali Ma doesn't come to me as much now, even though i feel i need her just as much...but i know she is there.

[Snapdragon]

This is something we discussed earlier, and I've now read enough of another book that satisfies me that the Thug ("strangler") association with Kali is entirely a product of colonial British orientalism and racism. Anyone who questions this should of course look into the matter for themselves, but one good place to begin is with my most current reading that pertains to this subject. The book in question is Children of Kali, by Kevin Rushby. Walker & Co., New York, 2002.

He specifically went to the areas where Sleeman (the Brit most responsible for perpetuating the Kali/Thug myth) lived and operated. That there were thieves, murderers, and abductions is beyond dispute--as were the many executions carried out at Sleeman's direction. What there is NOT, is any connection between religion at all, and these people.

[Rebecca E.]

First, I just have to say that this is a great thread and I'm glad I clicked on it!

I have always had an interest in Kali, I think she has a fierce mother/warrior feeling that on some level I can really connect to.

If anyone is interested in a really unique take on Kali in fiction can I suggest Midnight Blue: The Sonya Blue Collection by Nancy Collins. Not factual on ANY level, just a really interesting evolutionary perspective on Kali...and other facets of faith as well. It's what I read that made me go...who is Kali really and what is she about.

[Snapdragon]

Lady Chandra, the High Priestess of the Sha'can devi mandir (goddess temple) in the Bay Area, recently returned from her annual pilgrimage to India. While there, she kindly obtained for me a statue of Ganges clay that was hand-painted to show Kali in Her black aspect standing astride Shiva...a very famous and widely viewed image. I'm grateful for this not only because my worship and active magic are effectively centered on Kali, but also because it is Her black aspect that I find most beautiful and attractive. This attraction has grown from my original worship of Venus/Aphrodite, over my decades in the Craft, as I seem to have traveled a widdershins direction...coming to prefer night to day, sleep to wakefulness, and death to life. To hear all that without an understanding of Kali and a corresponding concern to be released from the wheel of karma, might agitate some people! However, it is the focus of my spiritual life to live without attachment and, with any luck at all, to not be reborn. Kali is the slayer of illusions and the ruler of death, so it is to Her that I turn in devotion.

Jai Kali maa!

[Snapdragon]

As I've posted elsewhere, there in fact were no Thugs. The popular (mis)conception originated with a British colonial official with the last name of Sleeman, who cobbled together hearsay, his own, considerable prejudices, and the Occidental horror (and secret enjoyment of) "Oriental depravity" to product the Thugs. There was no cult of murderers who worshipped Kali; it's simply a lie.

Google is hardly an authority on the matter.

[Toby Stimpson]

As I've posted elsewhere, there in fact were no Thugs. The popular (mis)conception originated with a British colonial official with the last name of Sleeman, who cobbled together hearsay, his own, considerable prejudices, and the Occidental horror (and secret enjoyment of) "Oriental depravity" to product the Thugs. There was no cult of murderers who worshipped Kali; it's simply a lie.

Google is hardly an authority on the matter.

Oh really?...you think so eh? Hmmm...show me evidence for such a sweeping statement Snapdragon.

[Snapdragon]

I do indeed, and it was a change of mind; like most people, I thought it might have been overstated, or a long time ago, or an aberration...but have come to the conclusion that the entire thing is (yet another) racist fabrication of the British colonialists. I'm at the computer that doesn't have my books/notes on it, and I'm too lazy to change...but I recall one of the books that played a role in my changing of view is entitled Children of Kali. You can find it at Amazon, if you like...I thought it was a "travelogue," and it has that aspect, to be sure--a very readable and intriguing book. But the author very effectively interwove history with the various places he visited and personages he either met or discussed, and much of what he wrote was about the Thugs.

I encourage you to question sources that discuss Thugee, especially (but not only) if Sleeman was their only or primary source. It is a fine example of "historical gossip," where people repeat what others say and they in turn repeat what others say...and there's your "evidence." That's what I found; stranglers there were, to be sure; thieves there were, indeed; and worshippers of Kali, there were aplenty. What there is no evidence at all for, is a temple or sect or leader that is the proof for a cult of Kali worshippers who performed ritual murder in Her name. Simply a lie.

Happy researching.

[David19]

I only heard of the Thugs last semester at university, in one of my modules, it was about terrorism and talked about various terrorists throughout the ages, and into the modern day, and in fact, it was interesting, since many people, automatically, think terrorist = Muslim, when terrorists were and are a part of every religion, including Hinduism.

From what i've read, i think the Thugs were people who would set out to capture people on roads and commit human sacrifice to Kali, that's not to paint Kali in a bad light, just as Al Queda don't paint Allah in a bad light.

[Snapdragon]

I've found no reliable documentation of that, David; as I've indicated in other posts, I think it's one of those things that many people know--but just ain't so. Take away "Gunga Din" and the Indiana Jones movie with Kali as the devil and Shiva as [the Christian equivalent] "good" God, and most people would have no opinion in the matter.

The rest of the documentation I've found is no more reliable than those Hollywood images.