I have a question about alcohol and marihuana.

[possum]

Hi everyone!!
I am new and need some help, I wonder if it is ok to drink or smoke both cigarettes and marihuana? I read that wine is used sometimes but what about harder liquars. And I think cigarettes are a no because you are hurting your body. But what about marihuana which is basically an anti-depressant? I thank anyone for whatever help they can give me! Have a GREAT DAY and night!

[Flar's Freyja]

Personally, I believe that there is no harm in marijuana if it is the only thing used - however, it is ILLEGAL. So that can bring its own set of problems. Alcohol can also be especially dangerous if someone is susceptible to alcholism and of course impairs certain activities such as driving. Cigarettes, of course are very harmful to the body and although I myself am a smoker who has been struggling with this addiction for a very long time, I don't believe that anyone should smoke. It really bothers me to see young people start. I have heard that marijuana can be just as harmful to the lungs as cigarettes. It's probably not a good idea to pollute the lungs with more than one toxic substance.

I have heard different opinions as to being under the influence while doing magick, and I strongly agree that using artificial or synthetic means to reach an altered state of consciousness is going to impair your magick. I don't know which path or tradition you follow, but mine holds that we focus on taking care of our bodies by eating right, getting enough rest, etc.

[Flar's Freyja]

Oops, forgot to add although I'm not sure you were asking...! That when we use alcohol during ritual, we pass a chalice around and everyone takes one sip to symbolize the offering of cakes and wine. I belong to an open circle and in our public rituals, we often use juice. At one ritual we had spiced cider and we made both an alcoholic and non-alcoholic batch.

That's not to say we haven't partied after ritual on a few occasions...............

Ever notice how hard it is to type alcoholic - I keep wanting to skip one of the "o's" and it turns out alcholic......

[stormyray]

Imo---alcohol does not belong in circle. When juice can be subituted. Let me tell you why. If a person in a circle has not wanted people to know they had a problem with alcohol in the past and has been clean for a while.An it is being passed around even a sip is enough to cause a fall off the wagon. If you are alone then use your own judgement. You can alway drink after the ritual is over , in celebration.

As for marijuana That is whwere I must bow out of this conversation. I had a serious drug problem six years ago and I dont condone any use of illigal drugs .

[Myst]

Obviously your circle has made arrangements with the alcohol, so I don't think that's a problem. If you want to partake, are allowed, and are legal to do so, I don't see how that could be a problem

As far as cigarettes and marijuana, does that have anything to do with your circle or Paganism, or are you just talking about recreationally? Marijuana is more likely to give you lung cancer then regular cigarettes (http://www.methodisthealth.com/cancer/lung.htm). I wouldn't do either myself.

[possum]

Thanks you for the help!! I think what I understand is that the use of alcohol is not used in the circle just juices which makes so much sense. And never use alcohol or drugs while doing any magick. As for smoking of any kind well it's not good for the body and it up to the individual. THANKS again !!!

[BeachWitch]

American Society has put such a stigma on the use of alcohol in any setting. This stems from the turn of the Century from 1899 to 1900 teetotaler days, and the Women's Sufferage. Briefly, part of the logic behind the teetotaler's was that alcohol was the basis for all acts of violence and abuse against women, which is why the Women's Sufferage adopted the stance of Prohibition in the 1920's. And it was in the 1920's that Alcoholics Anonymous was established "Are you a friend of Bill W.?"

The stigma of alcohol really has no place in the ritual. During Ancient Egyptian and again in the Middle Ages, wine was the only form of drink other than beer or water, and in some instances, wine or beer was the only option due to the water supply often being tainted. Since the making of wine was an arduous process, it was considered a "special" or sacred drink, which was why it was saved for special circumstances like rituals and ceremonies. But the wine of centuries past is far different than wine today.

I believe, the closest thing we can come today to the wine of ages past is either home grown mead (there are many recipes available on the net), or adding water to a red wine to make it more like a juice. Mead takes about a year to ferment, but when it's done right it is wonderful!

The truth is, that Egyptian and Celtic Priests & Priestesses did many things to their bodies, the least of which was ingesting alcohol, all in the name of the Goddess. In open circles, I have a problem with the alarmist attitudes of "no alcohol". If a circle-mate has such an issue with self-control, that they do not know the meaning of "Moderation", then they have no business being in circle to start with. If the individual can not maintain the self-control needed to ingest alcohol in moderation, to know when to say when, can you imagine the problems you will have during magick rituals? The energies called forth while in circle can be far more intoxicating than any wine or liquor. Knowing how to respect and honor those energies is part of the learning process an initiate goes thru in the traditional "year and a day" training. Ancient Priest/esses mastered one trait above all others, and that was self-control. IT is what established their position in both the Temple and society. Modern Priest/esses have this same duty.

To clarify, and I should have said this earlier...... Obviously in family circles where children (aka participants under 21 or the legal drinking age) are participants, alcohol is a big no-no, but that is the only time. Anything less is using both the circle and the craft as a crutch for the individual's lack of self control.

As for marijuana - I agree, that unless it is a closed circle with limited coven members - and is used for meditation purposes only - no marijuana!!
And using any drugs while working magick is just ridiculously stupid.... assinine! Instead, why not just walk out to the middle of a highway during rush hour - it would be faster and far less painful for the people around you.

Smoking? I'm not going to say a word - I'm a smoker and I believe that people in glasses houses should never throw stones!:D

I know my views are a little on the "purist" side, so remember they are my views and that I do not try and impose these ideals on other people. To each his own!

BB,
Onagh

[stormyray]

Originally posted by BeachWitch


If a circle-mate has such an issue with self-control, that they do not know the meaning of "Moderation", then they have no business being in circle to start with. If the individual can not maintain the self-control needed to ingest alcohol in moderation, to know when to say when, can you imagine the problems you will have during magick rituals?
BB,
Onagh

I have to dissagree with you here. Acholism is a diease. Some can not control themselves when it come to it. Saying they do not belong in the circle is wrong. Does this mean because I am a recovering drug addic I dont belong in a circle????

sorry if I offended but this is a subject very colse to my heart.

[Sequoia]

I don't personally think that smoking should be associated with rituals and such, nor MUCH drinking. But I don't see the problem in a shared glass of wine or something, even for children. A sip won't kill them. I wouldn't give them a glass, and they probably wouldnt' like the tiny sip, anyway.

IMO - if you have to get drunk or stoned to do magick, then you probably shouldn't be doing magick.

[Flar's Freyja]

I respect your opinion and congratulate you on your recovery! Six years is some serious sobriety. However, I must agree to a certain extent with BeachWitch. Any alcoholic or addict is going to be exposed to their drug of choice at certain times whether it be circle, a bar, a friend or family's house or even some churches. It is a fact of life and must be dealt with. The individual needs to decide, in advance, what their plan of action will be if and when they are placed in a risky situation. This is called a Relapse Prevention Plan and is part of most treatment and aftercare programs.

It is not feasible to restrict activities on a consistent basis. In our circle, we usually use juice. We use wine or mead on special occasions. When that chalice is passed, everyone is fully informed as to what is in it and has the option of passing it on. I'm of the opinion that if an individual is prepared for this possibility and doesn't have a plan to abstain from the alcohol, then their sobriety is not stable. I'm also not of the opinion that one small sip of alcohol or cough medicine is going to send someone on a raging relapse, but that's another discussion.

Keep going, and be strong no matter what the rest of us say! Please don't be offended, and remember that these are just opinions.

[lucidfire]

I agree with what Puma said;
out of all of them though, marijuana's probably the most harmless. Sometimes I'd rather include something like budd than wine, being as wine is basically rotten fruity/vegetable water; in my humble opinion though, I think it all comes down to association; there's a strong power there..

[BeachWitch]

Ahh - I knew the disease card would be thrown down against my post. Stormray, you have a great and valid point - and I commend you on your path to recovery.

The responses to your post are well informed, but there is one small point everyone seems to have overlooked:

The circle, and the rituals performed within that circle, is a SACRED event. The wine in the chalice is wholly associated with all things Goddess, all things Sacred, and should be treated as the reverential drink it is intendended to be. By associating the wine in the Sacred Chalice with common alcohol debases not only the ritual, but also the intended purpose as an offering to the Goddess.

Part of the Self-Control issue for a recovering addict is the Relapse Prevention Plan, just as Freyja pointed out, and should be incorporated within an initiates path. The "year and a day" study period is only a guideline - it is entirely possible that a recovering addict may take longer than the suggested year and a day to make the Recovery Relapse Plan a regular part of his/her Path.

I know several "addicts" who, through guided meditation and constant work, have overcome the "disease" and have incorporated a sense of Self-Control that is to be commended. These individiduals have worked through the issues underlying the addiction, and as a result, have a sense of Moderation that is to be envied among non-addicts.

Part of the craft is working on the whole person, including the Spirit. In many cases, the source of the addiction is an emotional one, buried so deep that it is nearly impossible for the individual to overcome. One of the beautiful things about our collective Paths is that we are able to find the resources neccesary within circle/ritual/meditation to overcome the emotional barriers that keep us from being "whole people".

In speaking to the self-control issue, I stand by my post. If an individual has issues with intoxication, Magick is not an option for them. The energies called forth within a circle, during a ritual and while practicing Magick are far more powerful than any drink or herb. If common drink/herb causes an inssue of control for someone who is an addict, than the energies will cause a much more powerful addiction - who's to say that an individual does not substitute the energies from circle/ritual/magick for the intoxication of drink/herb?

Until an initiate can enter Circle knowing full well that they can maintain the self-control necessary to meet the Chalice of wine without fear of Relapsing, than the initiate is not ready to be practicing Magick or spellwork of any kind. It's like driving a car - you don't give a 10-year old a driver's license and set them loose on the freeway. A "lerner's permit" is given and the person is allowed time to practice driving with a supervisor until they have mastered the skill. Magick is just the same.

Stormray - of all the Paths you could have chosen, the one you are on is the best possible choice you could have made for finding the path to your permanent recovery. :heartthro BIG :heartthro HUGS :heartthro !!!!
Alcoholism is a disease, but it is not incurable. I have found that the pest practioners of Magick are permanently recovered (ie: cured) addicts!!
BB
Onagh

Obligatory disclaimer:
Please note that my comments are only related to circle/ritual/magick - since I am a smoker, and I drink (wine is my vice), and I have been known to partake of ...... you know....., I have no business giving anyone advice on the subject

[Myst]

I vehemently and wholeheartedly disagree.

This is a circle, and the concentration and higher consciousness required do not necessitate the total absence of addiction or habit - but then as you said you are a smoker, so do you never ever enter a circle?

[BeachWitch]

Originally posted by Myst
I vehemently and wholeheartedly disagree.

This is a circle, and the concentration and higher consciousness required do not necessitate the total absence of addiction or habit - but then as you said you are a smoker, so do you never ever enter a circle?

Sorry Myst - which part do you disagree with?

I did not say "total absence of addiction or habit", I believe I quite clearly said Self Control and Moderation - there is a big difference in the words you used to summarize my comments and the concepts I actually used.

I really would like to hear your opinion, but I am having a hard time understanding what part you disagree with. Do you not agree that the energies called forth, the focus of "concentration" and the resulting effects on the "higher consciousness" can be intoxicating? (My flippant reply to my own comments are, If it's not intoxicating than you're doing it wrong! :rotfl: ) And isn't the lack of Self Control / Moderation an abuse of that intoxication? Isn't lack of Self Control / Moderation the basis for addiction (not the deep rooted emotional basis but the "band-aid")? And if an individual lacks the Self Control and Moderation in relation to alcohol (for the purposes of this debate only), thean isn't it a logical assumption that the lack of Self Control and Monderation applies to the intoxicating energies raised during Circle/Ritual/Magick?

I really feel the last part of your post was meant as a flame. My "disclaimer" stated quite clearly that my comments related to ritual and circle only and not to the secular activities outside of the Sacred environment.

Cheers
Onagh

[Myst]

Originally posted by BeachWitch
If an individual has issues with intoxication, Magick is not an option for them.

This implies if you have an addiction you haven't overcome you cannot enter the circle. Thus if you are struggling with addiction you're simply expected not to do any magick until you are "able to control yourself" when alcohol is passed around.

That's what your post implied, and that's what I'm responding to. If what I gathered from it is not what you meant, I apologize, but that's what it looks like to me.

And btw, I don't "flame" people, I respond and comment.

[stormyray]

Even for ones who have put their addiction behind them . We are never truely cured.To belive that we no longer have an addction is to open ourselves up to the same behavour.
as for selfcontrol with the wine. Let me quote from AA and NA (yes I am a Bill W fan) " ONE IS TO MANY AND A THOUSAND IS NEVER ENOUGH"

No mater how long you are clean and no matter what you say you will always have a problem. Even a sip can cause major problems. It has nothing to do with self control it has to do with the way addicts brains work.

[Flar's Freyja]

I believe it's a combination of brains and body chemistry. To an extent, a person can be predisposed to alcoholism/addiction by family history and mental illness. Many addicts have body chemistry or mental health issues and use alcohol or drugs to self-medicate, because it really does make them feel better. When a person is prescribed the right drug, it is amazing how the craving for their drug of choice can diminish.

I totally agree with BeachWitch that it is a spiritual disease - and this is stated right there in the twelve steps. And I also agree that you are on the best path that you can possibly be on.

I confess, I am a professional who deals with these issues. I have seen too many individuals blame their disease for every problem in their lives and are not willing to develop coping skills other than getting drunk or high to resolve their life issues - although another tenet of the 12 step program is To Live Life on Life's Terms. And I have seen too many who have been terrified to seek mental health treatment because some bozo in the program told them that taking psychotropic drugs is wrong. And too many who go through their lives being terrified of their drug of choice - never developing the belief in themselves and their own power and ability to recover. The 12 step programs have saved many lives, but there are a few problems with them - actually, with some of the members that make up the groups - and I have seen them do damage as well. Enough said, don't get me started.....

Sweetie, I understand that for the time being you need to hang on to your program with white knuckles and I commend you for doing so. Do what you need to do to take care of yourself. If what is being said here threatens you, do not listen. You know what is best for you at this time in your life. When your sobriety is stable, when you have dealt with all the other issues connected with it, it is likely that you will have a different perspective. For right now, be selfish, be stubborn, stick to your guns and stay clean. May the Goddess wrap you in her arms and protect you always.

[BeachWitch]

Wow! Awesome words indeed!

[myristica]

no,no,no. at least when you're doing magick. i have personal reasons that keep me from using anything, but i don't think using anything is a good idea. and marijuanna is not an anti-depressant. it coats your brain cells with a layer of fat so the messages sent to your brain don't get through as well as they should. alcohol also poisions your body by tearing up your liver and thinning out your blood. the reason you pass out after drinking too much is because the blood is so thinned out that not enough oxygen can get to your brain. i would say that it would be ok to use wine in ritual if that is what you like to do, but i wouldn't. i know i sound like a mom but cut me some slack; i know what i'm talking about.

[myristica]

no,no,no. at least when you're doing magick. i have personal reasons that keep me from using anything,( i know Bill W's cousin), but i don't think using anything is a good idea. and marijuanna is not an anti-depressant. it coats your brain cells with a layer of fat so the messages sent to your brain don't get through as well as they should. alcohol also poisions your body by tearing up your liver and thinning out your blood. the reason you pass out after drinking too much is because the blood is so thinned out that not enough oxygen can get to your brain. i would say that it would be ok to use wine in ritual if that is what you like to do, but i wouldn't. i know i sound like a mom but cut me some slack; i know what i'm talking about.

[violetrose]

*I come from a family of cigarette smokers and Alcohol drinkers.Both are probably the biggest KILLERS on this planet....One or the other has either killed one of my family members or someone dear to my heart.I kicked the cigarette habit 3 years this April.It was the hardest thing I have ever accomplished.Mary Jane on the other hand has never been proven to be a killing factor in our lives..How many people do you know that has died from a toke???
My personal preference, and that is all it is...I would rather my children smoke a bud then drink a bud.....But then, that was not specifically what this topic was all about....The research that I have done, requires you to be free of all TOXIC substances in your body BEFORE doing any *Magic*.I think that would include all of the above.

[Flar's Freyja]

I completely agree that magick should never be done while under the influence of anything. I feel that marijuana is the best tranquilzer in the world, and have never seen anyone do anything evil when using weed alone. It also can help with pain and is prescribed for patients with glaucoma and Aids. The problem is, that when it is mixed with other substances there are some real problems and there are too many people who drink or do other drugs along with it. I totally agree with you that alcohol and cigarettes kill too many people. In fact, last time I checked, ALCOHOL was responsible for more deaths than cigarettes and illicit drugs COMBINED. And that doesn't even include the child abuse, domestic violence and other damaging effects on the loved ones of those in the throes of the disease.

There is a big difference between genuine "social" drinking and using a little wine in ritual. Wine is still used in some Catholic churches for Holy Communion.

Anyone who is predisposed to an addictive disease through family history should defnitely stay away from all of it. If I'd known that I was such an addictive personality when I lit my first cigarette, I may have thought twice about it. However, when you look at cigarettes - isn't it strange how some people smoke all their lives and never get lung diseases or cancer, while some who never smoked at all get them anyway? Could it be that someone may be predisposed to a lung disease and it wasn't the smoking that actually caused it, but just made it worse?

[violetrose]

Now this is where I have to disagree.Yes, maybe that little phrase "once an addict, always an addict, applies......But, I believe having mind control and being STRONG in the mind has alot to do with whether you get addicted to a substance or not.Why do I say this.....There are people that has had strokes that were addicted to substances before their attack and don't remember that they were addicted.You can't tell me that their body "reminded" them of this addiction.....
When I quit smoking cigarettes, I was strong enough in the mind to do this, and yes, everyday my body....told me I wanted another,but my mind told me I didn't need another, so my point is...If you are strong enough in the mind, you can quit ANY addiction...or be strong enough in the mind not to start one....But then again......You have to WANT to quit it also.

[Emerald Sky]

Wow, lots of good discussion going on. Let me add that I'm proud of all of you for keeping it civil. This can be a very touchy subject. Let me start by saying that my name is Emerald, and I'm an alcoholic. I have five years of sobriety. To the following statement I have this to say, alcoholism is a mental, physical *and* spiritual disease. It's three-fold. I know this not only because the Big Book says so, but because I'm an alcoholic and have first hand knowledge.

I totally agree with BeachWitch that it is a spiritual disease - and this is stated right there in the twelve steps.

To Beachwitch I have to say - I respect that what you have stated is your opinion, and in no way do I intend to try to change your opinion, but only to maybe give you some food for thought.


In open circles, I have a problem with the alarmist attitudes of "no alcohol". If a circle-mate has such an issue with self-control, that they do not know the meaning of "Moderation", then they have no business being in circle to start with. If the individual can not maintain the self-control needed to ingest alcohol in moderation, to know when to say when, can you imagine the problems you will have during magick rituals?

I don't think most recovering alcoholics would object to *any* alcohol being present, only that there be an option to partake of something other than alcohol - most likely grape juice. All of the circles I have been a part of offer both out of consideration and non-judgmentalness. They don't assume that if you partake of juice that you must be in recovery or that you have no will power. For all they know, you could be allergic to wine.

As for your thoughts on people not having any business being in circle if they have no self-control... ouch. I can understand your point of view, however. As I've said, I *am* an alcoholic. I *do* believe that alcoholism is a disease and that it isn't just a matter of will power. I do know of some alcoholics that one sip would be enough to send them into relapse. Perhaps that means that they haven't completely fixed some of the underlying problems that helped lead them to becoming alcoholics, but *I* don't know that. I haven't lived in their shoes, and therefore, I don't judge them and tell them that they have no will power. Every case is *not* the same. I believe that part of living the spiritual life includes not assuming things about people and not being judgmental. I'm not saying that you're being judgmental, but in my opinion, you do seem to be assuming things about *all* alcoholics in general. I believe that if you haven't dealt with the problem first hand, you can never truly know what it is like. I know many people who have strong opinions on certain topics until they, themselves are in that situation. At that point they have an understanding of why certain people have certain beliefs, and their own beliefs/opinions change.


The circle, and the rituals performed within that circle, is a SACRED event. The wine in the chalice is wholly associated with all things Goddess, all things Sacred, and should be treated as the reverential drink it is intendended to be. By associating the wine in the Sacred Chalice with common alcohol debases not only the ritual, but also the intended purpose as an offering to the Goddess.


Now, to this, I somewhat agree. When I was still Christian, I took communion. Juice was not offered - only wine. My opinion was that in Christianity, the wine is the holy blood of Jesus Christ. It is *not* wine. I had faith and belief that God would remove any alcohol attributes from the wine. I believed that it wasn't wine, but the holy blood of Jesus Christ, as I said, so it wasn't an issue. I agree with BeachWitch that the wine in the chalice is wholly Sacred. *For me* I could have the same faith/belief as I did when I was Christian... that the wine is no longer wine, but it is a representation of the Goddess, and therefore, it wouldn't be an issue. Not everyone can make that leap, but in no way is it my job to assume that it's because they just don't have enough faith or they haven't truly worked a program of recovery or that they don't belong in circle because they aren't ready for it. I think experiencing the intoxicating energies encountered during ritual could actually be quite helpful to a person's recovery. If they were denied the opportunity to feel the energy of the Divine within circle, how would that help them to heal or better themselves? I would think that if you get a taste of that Divine power you'd be more likely to *want* to become whole - if you know what I mean.


Until an initiate can enter Circle knowing full well that they can maintain the self-control necessary to meet the Chalice of wine without fear of Relapsing, than the initiate is not ready to be practicing Magick or spellwork of any kind


I can truly understand your thinking on this, and in some way I may even agree, but again, it's not my place to tell others when they are ready to practice Magic or spellwork. That is between that person and the Divine. If a person feels they are ready when in reality they aren't - whether it's from an addiction or for *any* reason - that is the responsibility of that person. I do not have Divine knowledge yet. I don't know what's in that person's heart. I cannot make a judgment from outside appearances. *I* may think the person isn't ready, but what I think doesn't matter. Hopefully, if someone is not ready, they will come to that realization and do what needs to be done to become ready.

Again, I think both sides have some very good points, and I can understand where both sides are coming from. Sometimes it's hard to open up your mind enough to try to understand the other point of view. I'm interested to hear more discussion.

[Flar's Freyja]

Emerald Sky - I LOVE your leap! That's an excellent way of putting it, that it's *not* wine due to the sacred intention of using it in ritual. I think that's what some of us (at least me) have been trying to say and have not put it in such an excellent words!

As for people not being in circle due to this - I'll say it again - if someone isn't stable enough in their recovery, as you are, they are not going to be able to be exposed to alcohol anywhere. The stuff is always gonna be there and one must ask for strength, as you have, to protect themselves.

Violetrose: I didn't know that. Maybe I should work on having a stroke!;) Actually, I am well aware of the reasons I smoke and as you said, the will to quit just isn't strong enough yet. If you want to send me some positive energy toward this effort - I would welcome it!

[violetrose]

I probably would not have believed it if I had not witnessed it myself and if it were that easy, I believe half this planet would be addict free......But since it isn't, some of us have to take other measures....I had my reasons for smoking but my reasons for quitting seemed to out weigh my reasons for continuing.....I am sure that when you ARE ready, you will not need strength from another to conquer this.My best friend's Aunt is the one who had smoked for 20+ years before she had her stroke-attack and do you know to this day, no-one has reminded her that she use to smoke......It has been well over 15 years.

[Flar's Freyja]

Thanks, Sweetie :smooch:

You're right, I need to work on being ready - although a good deal of the time I hate everything about it. I am aware that it is a distraction for me. I have chronic pain that responds to no drug and fibromyalgia. I've told my doctor that it doesn't really make the pain any better but I do tend to want to smoke more when I am really hurting. He agrees that it's a distraction. I just hope I don't have to get really sick in order to be ready to quit.

[BeachWitch]

I do not take offense to any of your observations, in fact I am impressed with your debating skill!;)

In regards to:
As for your thoughts on people not having any business being in circle if they have no self-control... ouch. I can understand your point of view, however. As I've said, I *am* an alcoholic. I *do* believe that alcoholism is a disease and that it isn't just a matter of will power.
I have two points I'd like to make in rebuttal.

1) First and foremost, the spiritual power that is present while doing magick IS intoxicating. I repeat what I posted earlier, If you don't feel the intoxication of the magick, you're doing it wrong. That lightness of being, the giddiness, the pulse racing joy and happiness, THAT is the effect of magick. When we connect with the Divine thru magick or ritual, our humble human bodies have a hard time managing the surge of joy, pure love and pure light that comes with it.

That said, how then do you expect an alcoholic, an individual who admittedly has control issues with alcohol, to be able to manage the intoxication from the circle/ritual/magick? And what of substituting the intoxication of alcohol with magick? Doesn't the alcoholic run that risk?

I truly would love to hear commentary on this. We are talking hypothetically here, I don't think anyone here has or is substituting their vices. :D

2) Please don't get me wrong on the AA issue. It has and continues to help many many people, but as Freyja has stated:
The 12 step programs have saved many lives, but there are a few problems with them - actually, with some of the members that make up the groups - and I have seen them do damage as well. Enough said, don't get me started.....
I have seen evidence of this myself with my own friends & family. Too many times, I have seen programs attribute all of an individual's problems in life to a "disease". As a result, no work is ever done to resolve the underlying issues, which caused the disease in the first place.

Take colon cancer for example. Replace "alcoholism" with "colon cancer", and "program" with "treatment". In the early stages of colon cancer, the bowel becomes blocked, causing bacteria to spread within the body. In many cases, the bacteria causes cysts on the patient's body, and instead of treating the true illness, colon cancer, precriptions to cure the cysts are given. The patient may spend vital months applying creams and taking antibiotics to cure the cysts. (this actually happened to me - I had ovarian cancer which spread to my colon)

It really is the same thing, and sticking to a moral code, as many programs advocate, only makes the underlying issues worse.

Alcoholism takes years, sometimes lifetimes to develop. It is a cancer of the psyche, of the soul. By treating and addressing the true issues, I adamantly believe an individual can be cured of the disease. Honestly, I know that addressing the underlying issues, facing them and reconciling with them can be the most difficult thing a person can do.
I *do* believe that alcoholism is a disease and that it isn't just a matter of will power.
ABSOLUTELY!!! Will Power is just not enough to combat alcoholism. I am truly sorry if you picked that up from my post. That's a little like telling a person to build a house and giving them no tools, no resources, no suport, no direction. That person is going to fail no matter what s/he tries.

However, I do believe that our collective paths offer the tools necessary to resolve the past trauma of the soul, and help to repair the damage that was done.

When I said
If a circle-mate has such an issue with self-control, that they do not know the meaning of "Moderation", then they have no business being in circle to start with. If the individual can not maintain the self-control needed to ingest alcohol in moderation, to know when to say when, can you imagine the problems you will have during magick rituals?

I should have clarified my position. In traditional circles, there are active and non active participants. Active being calling qarters, leading the ritual, etc......... non-active being an attending member. A person who is in recovery is not ready to be an active participant. Until that individual reaches a point in their recovery where the meaning of Moderation is clear and concise, it is cruel to expect them to handle the intense spiritual energy that is raised during rituals. This intense energy can trigger and release the emotions lying buiried deep within the psyche. Expecting a person in recovery to handle that kind of emotion, a sort of reliving the spiritual trauma that triggered the alcoholism to begin with, is just plain cruel. The other members of the circle need to be prepared to open their arms to embrace the individual, to help them release whatever emotions come surging tot he surface and help them let that emotion go back tot he Universe to be recycled into positive healing energy.

You seemed to imply that I meant an addict NEVER has a place in circle, and that is just not true. I said:
The "year and a day" study period is only a guideline - it is entirely possible that a recovering addict may take longer than the suggested year and a day to make the Recovery Relapse Plan a regular part of his/her Path.
At some point during the training, the individual will have released enough of the negative energy behind the disease to be an active circle/ritual participant, and in fact, may be instrumental in helping other recover-ees down the same path.

Thanks for reading my tangent, and for those of you who do have issues with addiction, I send my biggest hugs, my deepest empathy and loads of positive energy!!

[Myst]

Originally posted by BeachWitch
That said, how then do you expect an alcoholic, an individual who admittedly has control issues with alcohol, to be able to manage the intoxication from the circle/ritual/magick?

Is an alcoholic also addicted to cigarettes, weed, dope, and sex? No. And yet IMHO sex is more intoxicating then alcohol. One addiction does not necessitate the need for another.

Originally posted by BeachWitch
I should have clarified my position. In traditional circles, there are active and non active participants. Active being calling qarters, leading the ritual, etc......... non-active being an attending member. A person who is in recovery is not ready to be an active participant.
Until that individual reaches a point in their recovery where the meaning of Moderation is clear and concise, it is cruel to expect them to handle the intense spiritual energy that is raised during rituals.


Yes there is a considerable difference between that and saying someone who is an alcoholic has no business being in circle. However, what about someone who works as a solitary? Are they just not supposed to ever be in circle or practice rituals or spells? I don't think so.

Originally posted by BeachWitch
You seemed to imply that I meant an addict NEVER has a place in circle, and that is just not true. I said:

Actually you said..

Originally posted by BeachWitch
If a circle-mate has such an issue with self-control, that they do not know the meaning of "Moderation", then they have no business being in circle to start with.

but have since clarified that.

[BeachWitch]

so then your position is that a circle member, who has only begun study, who has an issue with addiction is perfectly cabable of being an active participant?

I did say that I should have clarified my position, which I did.

This makes flippant reply number 2, should I be taking these replies personally?:confused:

[Myst]

And I *did* point out that you had clarified it.

If you feel offended report the post to a mod. I'm not going to justify the "tone" of my posts here, sorry.

[Flar's Freyja]

BeachWitch wrote:

The circle, and the rituals performed within that circle, is a SACRED event. The wine in the chalice is wholly associated with all things Goddess, all things Sacred, and should be treated as the reverential drink it is intendended to be. By associating the wine in the Sacred Chalice with common alcohol debases not only the ritual, but also the intended purpose as an offering to the Goddess.

And Emerald Sky wrote:

Now, to this, I somewhat agree. When I was still Christian, I took communion. Juice was not offered - only wine. My opinion was that in Christianity, the wine is the holy blood of Jesus Christ. It is *not* wine. I had faith and belief that God would remove any alcohol attributes from the wine. I believed that it wasn't wine, but the holy blood of Jesus Christ, as I said, so it wasn't an issue. I agree with BeachWitch that the wine in the chalice is wholly Sacred. *For me* I could have the same faith/belief as I did when I was Christian... that the wine is no longer wine, but it is a representation of the Goddess, and therefore, it wouldn't be an issue. Not everyone can make that leap, but in no way is it my job to assume that it's because they just don't have enough faith or they haven't truly worked a program of recovery or that they don't belong in circle because they aren't ready for it. I think experiencing the intoxicating energies encountered during ritual could actually be quite helpful to a person's recovery. If they were denied the opportunity to feel the energy of the Divine within circle, how would that help them to heal or better themselves? I would think that if you get a taste of that Divine power you'd be more likely to *want* to become whole - if you know what I mean

No matter what our opinions, I think we need to respect that each individual will progress at their own individual level in recovery. There are some who decide to quit and quit for good, immediately. In my experience, these are quite rare. Most of the time, an individual makes repeated attempts at recovery before being able to stay clean and sober - and some never do. There are some who can have a sip of wine in a sacred circle without using it as an excuse to relapse. I believe that someone who says that a sip of alcohol triggered a relapse had been dying for a drink for a long time and this was the excuse to get started.

A person who is truly in recovery will very rarely relapse no matter what. A person who is truly in recovery will be going to meetings, keeping in touch with their sponsor and changing their lifestyle as much as possible to avoid picking up a drink again.

I have seen too many who will use something like being exposed to alcohol at ritual or elsewhere for all that it's worth to justify having a relapse. Or a relationship. Or the boss. Or the wife or the kids or the dog or the speeding ticket or the flat tire.

One of the characteristics of the alcoholic personality disorder is the tendency to blame everyone else for their disease and to fail to take responsibility for their own behavior. For a long time, people could even get disability payments for alcoholism and I have known a few individuals who would go on a binge every now and then to take a nice long vacation. I don't think that this is allowed any more.

Oh, dear - I'm sorry - I'm getting me started!

And it's time to come out of the closet. I have been a recovered alcoholic for 14 years. I attended AA for 8 years. I still say that it saved my life. I stopped going for various reasons - one of them being that I was neglecting my own children somewhat by putting my meetings ahead of their activities. When I went into my professional field, I did not want to run into clients at meetings - well, not that many of them actually went when they were supposed to. As I said in an earlier post - there are many problems with the group dynamics and I have considered writing a book for a long time. It would definitely piss a lot of people off. Carolyn Myss writes about these folks "living on their wounds" in one chapter of Why People Don't Heal and I'd like to expand on that theory.

I'm one of the rare ones who got sober the first time I tried. I made the decision and that was that. I was very functional. I had a good job and my kids were taken care of. The only thing I really lost was a husband who gave me several broken noses and broken fingers.

They say it's a selfish program - well, I'm not sure that I agree completely with that. I had three little people who needed their mother - I did it for them as much as me, and they kept me going through this and lots of adversity - like their father living three doors down from us with his girlfriend. And I didn't kill either of them!

I can take a sip of wine or mead at ritual and have absolutely no desire to go on a drunk. I handle my emotions appropriately. I take care of myself. I am Warrior Goddess and I am blessed.

[Flar's Freyja]

Come on, you guys. Emerald was so proud of us.............

[Myst]

Lovely post, Freyja :)

[BeachWitch]

No Myst, no reporting necessary, I'd rather hear your voice. You are an enigma sometimes and your "tone" is hard to determine.
No hard feelings, it's just debate :D

Quote:
If they were denied the opportunity to feel the energy of the Divine within circle, how would that help them to heal or better themselves? I would think that if you get a taste of that Divine power you'd be more likely to *want* to become whole - if you know what I mean


This is exactly what I was referring to but Emerald put it much better than I did. I think our path helps to heal as well as provide a spiritual outlet.

[Myst]

First, Divine isn't felt only in circle, but in every day life (not that I'm implying you said it was only felt in circle, but I wanted to point that out as something to think about). Second, I don't think anyone should be denied the opportunity to be part of a circle, regardless of their experience, health, or physical conditions.

[Flar's Freyja]

And I am of the opinion that the Circle should not have to take responsibility for individuals who have issues with alcohol if alcohol is being used in the ritual.

As I stated in an earlier post, our circle always informs the participants of what is in the chalice (or what will be poured into a cup if it's a really big circle). No one is obligated to participate. No one pours it into their mouths or tells them that the magick won't work if they don't drink it. It is up to the individual to take responsibility for their own choices.

I don't feel that any circle should even consider barring anyone with addiction issues from participating.

I don't know what other circles practice, but alcohol is used so infrequently in our public rituals that it isn't a major issue.

[Myst]

hehe creative colour coding... :)

[Flar's Freyja]

Yes, thanks to you, Sensei! Actually, I'm having trouble with the enhanced mode and am doing it manually, but it works!

[FelixFire]

I am no longer part of a coven (well, we called it a circle), but I spent a bit over a year and a day with an ecclectic Wiccan group when I was first starting out.

In our group, wine was always used in the chalice. Anybody that opted not to drink would still accept the chalice as it was passed, but would kiss it instead of drinking from it. Never did anybody have a problem with that, and anybody was welcome to partake or not partake as they saw fit. Me, I come from a family full of alchoholics and addicts, so most of the time I chose to kiss rather than sip even though I don't personally seem to have a problem with liquor. (Except for not really liking the taste of most wines) To our group, it was the sharing of the symbol of the sacred chalice that was the vital part, not *how* we shared it.

Our circle was also marijuana-friendly, though it was always kept for the end of the ritual as celebration and thanks to Mother Nature along with the cakes and wine. The majority of us did smoke recreationally as well, but one member of the group grew his own weed specifically for sacred use *only*, that we would share as a circle in a consecrated 'sacred pipe' that was handmade by a circle member and used only for ceremonial smoking. Our ceremonial smoke was much like the ceremonial sip of wine - one toke per person was about all there would ever be, not nearly enough to get our group of stoners even moderately high. And anybody not wishing to smoke had the same "kiss" option for the sacred pipe as well.

Afterwards, on the other hand...anything went. ;-)

[Flar's Freyja]

That sounds a lot like my circle, except that we do not use any marijuana. When we use a pipe, it is loaded with ceremonial tobacco and herbs.

As you said, not nearly enough is passed to make anyone drunk or high. So - I'm beginning to feel rather silly arguing about it!;)

[Psyche Ague]

Well, within a circle, I can't say that I really approve of heavy drinking or anything...although I'm not one for circles, anyway. I prefer the solitary life. Outside of a circle or after a ritual, I see no problem with drinking and/or smoking marijuana. But I firmly believe that is the individual's choice. I'm lucky enough to say that a smoke and a drink do not hurt me (well, aside from the obvious long-term hazards), but as I say, it is my choice.

I'm not going to debate about alcohol with anyone; I don't feel I belong in that conversation.

[GingerBurkley]

I believe the question was just alcohol and marijuana use in general, not necessarily as part of a ritual. And as a solitary eclectic, I believe I should be able to do as I please - as long as it harms none. I smoke pot and I drink, but neither while I'm casting.

[Flar's Freyja]

;) Yes - and lil ol' possum - who started this whole discussion - was never heard from again!

[violetrose]

I think it got too deep for him...lol....

[Myst]

It tends to happen around here sometimes :)

[Flar's Freyja]

:p

It was a good discussion. Lots of good points were brought up and it got everyone thinking, didn't it?