Proving Psychic Ability

[Jolixte]

I'm just curious, but why do you think that people that claim to have psychic abilities won't just go out and prove it?

And why didn't we have any psychics making hoopla on sept. 10th 2001 or before any other major event?

[Ron]

While I understand your cycnicism, I cannot sympathize with you.

I for one dreamed of the London bombings of last year, at the same time that they occured -- or perhaps it was mere coincidence. I've never been to the UK since infancy, and I have not seen many pictures. What I saw in my dream looked something more like the Toronto subway system, except more busy, and with more passengerways underground.

Why didn't I go crazy? I did. I woke up in the morning, and several hours later my mother told me of what happened in London. I told serveral people that I dreamed of very similar events. Some of them thought I was a little off my horse; so be it.

I don't claim to be a "pyshic," but there are things like this that happen, that make certain things impossible for me to deny.

[Kodachi]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm, maybe because I like my head right were it is - not off my body. [/sarcasm] Sorry to be like this but not every psychic is going to up and say "Hey! I can do this!" That would earn anyone mixed feelings just like if a Witch were to do the same.

There were predictions before 9/11 but who do you think is going to open their mouth and really say it or actually may know what is going on. Some psychics are phonies and pretty much any psychic will say that its a one-shot deal, especially with this. One time someone was trying to jump the White House fence screaming in Arabic "The WTC will be knocked down!" about two weeks before the event. What did they do with him? Deem him nutso and have him locked up. May not have been psychic but that shows something there. Not only but I personally believe that visions and things of the like come from (Your Creator Here) so if they want something to happen, they'll let it happen. Lets face it, US was in a lot of doo doo, karma was getting really tired of the scales not being set straight. I had my 9/11 vision day of attacks and that info came indirectly from a dream.

Then there's the fact that a psychic shouldn't have to feel pressured to prove themselves. I'm not an X-box, I'm not here for someone's entertainment. I normally don't really say that I'm a psychic out right because of the attention that it gets but I do say that if you want to find out bad enough, do it for yourself.

[Philosophia]

I'm just curious, but why do you think that people that claim to have psychic abilities won't just go out and prove it?

Maybe they have, on many occasions, except people won't accept it (usually claiming that the test is "flawed").

And why didn't we have any psychics making hoopla on sept. 10th 2001 or before any other major event?

Maybe they did. Maybe many did make a big hoola but nobody believed them.
I know I have "felt" major things occuring yet, when I have spoken out, I've been criticised and labelled "insane". So I don't do it anymore.

[Jolixte]

Maybe they have, on many occasions, except people won't accept it (usually claiming that the test is "flawed").


If something comes up with greater than statistical randomness a researcher has to do it again. Don't see why they wouldn't. I mean that's what parapsychologists do.


Maybe they did. Maybe many did make a big hoola but nobody believed them.
Well, then if the thing happened... wouldn't people remember that someone had told them about it before.



If people don't want everyone to think they are nuts then wouldn't it just be easier to prove that those abilities are out there. People were even offered a million dollars to be tested and nobody did it.

[Philosophia]

If something comes up with greater than statistical randomness a researcher has to do it again. Don't see why they wouldn't. I mean that's what parapsychologists do.

I think they have, and some have done it and proven it that psychic abilities do exist. However, do the scientific and/or sceptic community accept these results?

Well, then if the thing happened... wouldn't people remember that someone had told them about it before.

Of course, if they want to remember. Sometimes they say "Lucky guess." Other times, people forget you even mentioned it.

If people don't want everyone to think they are nuts then wouldn't it just be easier to prove that those abilities are out there.

I agree, however even if you can prove your psychic ability, does it really change the sceptics mind? Or maybe, as I stated, they classify the test as fraudulent/weak.

People were even offered a million dollars to be tested and nobody did it.

Read about it here:
http://www.alternativescience.com/james-randi.htm
http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/Prescott_Randi.htm

[DoktorSick]

So far there has not been one shred of credible evidence to support the claims of psychics.So excuse me if i have doubt and question who claims
they can " make predictions",talk to the dead" or do whatever it is they claim
they can do that is beyond the normal range of the 5 senses.
And what gets me is the Nostradomus effect.That's when after an event happens psychics come out the wood work claiming they had visions and dreams about a particular disaster.
If a psychic had a vision or dream about some really accident or disaster.
I think that if tried to contact a newspaper or call the local news or email cnn or something.Or put info in a message board something.
The infomation would be out there.And it's like go to any website or new age
fair and all the psychics claim they want to help but when some major disaster happens oh now they are afraid of what people might say or do.
If psychics could do what they say they could I think there would be some sort of news coverage when a psychic helped find a missing child or solve a crime.Oh even found someones lost dog.But you don't see that.

[Philosophia]

So far there has not been one shred of credible evidence to support the claims of psychics.So excuse me if i have doubt and question who claims they can " make predictions",talk to the dead" or do whatever it is they claim they can do that is beyond the normal range of the 5 senses.

You're excused. ;)
Have your doubts, I do. I question everything and anything and I'm coming from personal experiance and what I have been told.
But I know what I do, and there is evidence out there that can support the claims of many psychics.

And what gets me is the Nostradomus effect.That's when after an event happens psychics come out the wood work claiming they had visions and dreams about a particular disaster.

Not all psychics do. I didn't and I felt it. The same with other people I know.

If a psychic had a vision or dream about some really accident or disaster. I think that if tried to contact a newspaper or call the local news or email cnn or something.Or put info in a message board something.

Maybe they do. But they get ridiculed and people label them as "crazy". So soon they don't do it anymore because they hate being laughed at.

The infomation would be out there.And it's like go to any website or new age fair and all the psychics claim they want to help but when some major disaster happens oh now they are afraid of what people might say or do.

The information is out there. If you want to look for it, you can find it easily.

If psychics could do what they say they could I think there would be some sort of news coverage when a psychic helped find a missing child or solve a crime.Oh even found someones lost dog.But you don't see that.

Actually, you do see it. A lot. There are many reports out there if you want to find them.

[DoktorSick]

"But I know what I do, and there is evidence out there that can support the claims of many psychics"
What evidence where?
Where has there a case where on a regular bases people have used psychics
to avoid some tragedy?
I have yet to see a psychic on cops helping to located murders and rapist
Or on american most wanted helping track down some missing kid or escaped convict.

"Maybe they do. But they get ridiculed and people label them as "crazy". So soon they don't do it anymore because they hate being laughed at."

I have yet to see this as disclaimer on any psychic website or any psychic store in a strip mall.So instead of putting informations that could possible say lives.All of sudden they are afraid of being laughed.I thing they are afraid of being laughed at because there predictions wouldn't happen.And making predictions like that would make it easy to check to see if what they really did come true.

"Actually, you do see it. A lot. There are many reports out there if you want to find them."
I have looked up some of the reports of helping the police and what i have found that the information they do give is vague and pretty much off the mark.And if the case is solved by police the psychic will try and back track and try to reshape there previous predictions to fit the new informations.

http://www.parascope.com/en/articles/psychicSleuths.htm
http://http://www.livescience.com/othernews/vor_psychics_041109.html
http://skeptically.org/skepticism/id10.html

Retrofitting that's the word i was looking it would seem psychics use this alot when they try to help the police.

Here's a neat little article how the L.A police department did a study to see
if psychics could actually help.http://http://www.valleyskeptic.com/psychic.htm

Well so far I have find one case where a psychic was actually in
solving a case or finding a missing child.
What is there some grand conspiracy to suppress the evidence to
support the psychics?

[Cristelle]

There are a lot of different types of psychic abilities out there. I'm sure someone out there could prove their ability by predicting something that couldn't be a mere coinsidence. I don't have much knowledge of all the different abilities but I do know there are many claims of them out there.

All someone would need to do is predict something that does not happen to the majority of people. It would take something really bizarre to be predicted and to actually happen.

For lack of a better example, say someone has a vision of a friend losing a hand due to a random thing. Some activity that the friend is not usually around. Perhaps the friend hates riding bikes (so it is not likely for the friend to be in a bike accident due to the fact he/she is scarcely around them) and one day decides to ride a bike without telling anyone. What are the chances a phony could vision exactly how his friend is injured a day before it happens without anyone telling him or him seeing that his friend went on a bike ride?

People tend to believe psychics are not real because:

A. there are many fakes out there that generalize answers to the extent that the predictions are very average like "Today you will have a meaningful thought" or they have a way of knowing something about the person before a reading.

Example: A phony television show psychic could hire people to make small talk with people in the audience then tell the host the info and have the host pick all the people who were talked to for a reading.

And

B. Even the real psychics cannot predict every single detail of something.

Perhaps there is someone that claims to be psychic that can predict 10 out of 15 things that you are thinking.
If you are still skeptical, have people who do not in any way claim to have psychic abilities and ask them to do the same thing. I doubt the norms will come up with more correct answers than the psychic.

But then again, there are so many ways people can be deceiving. For example, what if you lie about what you were actually thinking? What if you write down on a sheet of paper what you think before they predict to prevent anyone from saying you lied about his/her predictions. But then again what IF this "psychic" found some way of finding out what was written on your paper? Tests on this are very hard to be proven accurate as there are so many possibilites/explanations on the subject of psychics and skeptics.

So, if the whole testing thing doesn't float your boat, think about this:
With all the people in the world, you hear about psychics in practically every city. Yes, there are fakes, but what are the chances that every person in the world that claims to be psychic is lying? Is the world that compulsive? What would the people giving free readings get out of doing "fake" readings? Why waste their time trying to convince others of an ability that is not there?

It is hard to believe what people say because of the fact that lying exists. But you have to remember people will lie about the simplest things:

Example - A mother wants her son to take his regular medication, but he simply flushes his pill down a toilet while she is gone and tells her he took it. The mom won't suspect he is lying if he normally takes his meds because the lie seems so regular.

But if he swore on his life that he saw a purple oaf/cat/alligator/rabbit with yellow spots, people would have trouble believing this since it is not a regular thing to say.

The only person that will ever know if his encounter was real is himself. The people who hear of his claims can only use their best judgment from what they know about him in order to decide whether or not they believe him. Because in reality, it is possible that everything that comes out of someones mouth could be a lie.

A person who does not usually lie is often more believed on an odd statement than one who usually says things that are proven untrue. But who really knows if a common liar is for once telling the truth?

And that is my 2 cents on the subject :abanana:

[Philosophia]

What evidence where? Where has there a case where on a regular bases people have used psychics to avoid some tragedy? I have yet to see a psychic on cops helping to located murders and rapist Or on american most wanted helping track down some missing kid or escaped convict.

Then you're obviously not looking very hard. From CNN:
http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0404/29/lkl.00.html
And other websites:
http://www.noreenrenier.com/articles-psychic-crime-solver.html
http://www.crimelibrary.com/criminal_mind/forensics/psychics/index.html
http://members.aol.com/garypos/Renier_chap.html
http://www.rense.com/general31/docu.htm

I have yet to see this as disclaimer on any psychic website or any psychic store in a strip mall.So instead of putting informations that could possible say lives.All of sudden they are afraid of being laughed.I thing they are afraid of being laughed at because there predictions wouldn't happen.And making predictions like that would make it easy to check to see if what they really did come true.

Have you met every psychic? Have you met every person who has had predictions?
Of course, they are afraid of being laughed at. Everybody is at some time. There predictions may be right, you don't know.

I have looked up some of the reports of helping the police and what i have found that the information they do give is vague and pretty much off the mark.

So there has been more than one report? I thought you stated otherwise.

And if the case is solved by police the psychic will try and back track and try to reshape there previous predictions to fit the new informations.

How so? They can't change what the police have on tape.

Retrofitting that's the word i was looking it would seem psychics use this alot when they try to help the police.
Here's a neat little article how the L.A police department did a study to see
if psychics could actually help.http://http://www.valleyskeptic.com/psychic.htm

Nifty. So the study showed every single psychic, or only the ones they could find?

Well so far I have find one case where a psychic was actually in
solving a case or finding a missing child. What is there some grand conspiracy to suppress the evidence to support the psychics?

See above to the links I've provided.
Conspiracy? Nope.

[Philosophia]

While I agree with most of your post, there are a few things I disagree with...

The only person that will ever know if his encounter was real is himself. The people who hear of his claims can only use their best judgment from what they know about him in order to decide whether or not they believe him. Because in reality, it is possible that everything that comes out of someones mouth could be a lie.

And this is a problem with psychics. I could swear til I'm blue in the face that I spoke with my dead grandmother last night, but some people still won't believe me until I shown them proof (which I can't because the only thing she left is her scent).

A person who does not usually lie is often more believed on an odd statement than one who usually says things that are proven untrue. But who really knows if a common liar is for once telling the truth?

I disagree. From my own experiance, many people aren't going to believe a person (a liar or not) when they say a prediction.

[aislin_ryann]

If people were to come forward about the 9-11 attacks, or any other terrorist attack before it happens, and then it does happen, do you know what happens? Then those people are labeled terrorists and are grilled and followed for months while they try to clear themselves of any wrong doing. And what good would that do?! The government knew about possible terrorist attacks but were still not able to stop them. Sometimes coming forward with information only makes things worse.

As for proof, it doesn't matter what is found and presented, there will always be someone who doesn't believe it and demands more proof. Its a vicious cycle and I try not to get into it. I know what I know and I only have to prove it to myself. People are intitled to their opinions, no matter what they may be.

[DoktorSick]

So which is it ? Is there evidence to support psychic powers or are those powers a matter of opinion?

[Philosophia]

So which is it ? Is there evidence to support psychic powers or are those powers a matter of opinion?

There is evidence out there. I've given you plenty.

[DoktorSick]

what evidence?
maybe i missed something?

[Ron]

what evidence?
maybe i missed something?
http://mysticwicks.com/showpost.php?p=2456413&postcount=11

Just because you can't see it doesn't mean it is there.

In the world of proof and disproof, one can only prove. Due to the infinite number of variables that are unknown, it is impossible to disprove anything completely.

Perhaps one day, you will have personal experience with "psychic ability" which will allow you to prove it. Perhaps not. It is irrational to deny its existence just because you have not encountered it directly.

Would you reveal yourself to someone who denied you?

[DoktorSick]

who said anything about disproving?
Either you have evidence or you don't.
Oh and the personal expericene thing.
I was wondering when that would show up.
Do personal expericenes against count?

[Philosophia]

who said anything about disproving?

Then why do you want us to prove it?

Either you have evidence or you don't.

And I've shown you evidence.

Oh and the personal expericene thing. I was wondering when that would show up. Do personal expericenes against count?

:eyebrow: Personal experiance has been used throughout this discussion. Have you been reading the posts?

[Ron]

Either you have evidence or you don't.Right, so years ago when there was little evidence to support Darwinnian evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution), Lamarakian evolution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamarckism) was what was actually happening in the Universe?

Or years ago when the Ancient Greeks thought fire a liquid, it was? And then in later times when we learned that it was elsewise, fire automagically ceased to be a liquid.

As I said earlier, we can only prove, not disprove, due to the inifinite number of variables that we are unaware of.

Oh and the personal expericene thing.
I was wondering when that would show up.
Do personal expericenes against count?
Firstly, in defense of the gross English language, "experience" is spelled like so.

Secondly, I was the first to reply to this thread, and my post talked almost wholly about personal experience.

Thirdly, "seeing is believing" at least for me. I have a hard time believing in something that I can not see. Unfortunately, Thomas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doubting_Thomas), one does need rather special eyes to see G!d everywhere.

[Tanemon]

I'm just curious, but why do you think that people that claim to have psychic abilities won't just go out and prove it?

And why didn't we have any psychics making hoopla on sept. 10th 2001 or before any other major event?

Please excuse this... I don't mean to offend anyone. But I find that a lot of people posting to MysticWicks are incredibly ignorant of the psychic-research and parapsychology literature that has been written in (or translated into) English over the last couple centuries, and particularly in about the last 80 years. This is not a new subject for people of science to look into.

A writer named D. Scott Rogo wrote a short overview, a couple decades back (you may be able to find a copy through a used-book finder), titled something like 100 Years of Psychical Research... a very good overview of parapsychology inside and outside laboratory settings. If interested, search for it by his name (Rogo)... I may have the title slightly wrong here.

In any case, haven't you ever heard of famous psychics and spiritual healers like Eileen Garrett, Stuart "Blue" Harary, or Olga Worral who gladly worked with scientists over many years to explore their abilities? There have been many others too.

You might like to read Edgar Cayce: an American Prophet by Sidney Kirkpatrick. Cayce was investigated by Dr. Hugo Munsterberg, a professor at Harvard, and Cayce fully cooperated with him. Dr. Munsterberg became a believer (a baffled believer, but a believer).

One of the difficulties is that few psychics have all or even any of their abilities "on-tap" just exactly when they or the scientists want them. I do not call myself 'a psychic' but I've experienced telepathy more times than I could possibly recall, and have had a number of experiences of pre-cognition (foreknowledge), and a couple of out-of-body experiences. Can I do these things just when I want in a lab? I doubt it. But some people can - at least, after they get used to the lab environment.

About the question as to whether these abilities exist: I had a psychic reading once from a woman in Australia, someone I never met, and in fact someone I was just e-mailing because we both had been participating in the same Reiki forum. I didn't even ask for a reading, she just told me things - absolutely accurate, specific, insightful things that still blow me away, two years later.

The information about the reality of psychic stuff is out there if you want to dig into the subject.

As to 911 type events, well who can say? But it's a slightly different topic than whether psychic abilities exist... kind of a sub-topic maybe.

:sunny: Tanemon

[Jolixte]

Interesting. Thanks. It occurred to me somewhere along the way that it doesn't really matter to me if it is proven or not, but the topic is interesting, none the less.

[Tanemon]

In case anybody is interested, I looked up the title of the D. Scott Rogo book that I mentioned in my previous post. I had it a bit wrong (as it was from memory, and it's been five or six years since I last read it). The actual title is: Parapsychology: A Century of Inquiry.

:sunny: Tanemon

[DoktorSick]

I think it must be very difficult to hear talk about psychic phenomena without ever having experienced it. Some people find the idea of psychics very disturbing and often try to cover their fear and discomfort with ridicule and baiting. I have experienced this from the Earthbound people I know and have learned that teaching someone about the invisible realm depends upon their willingness to open to the unknown. Many people resist the unknown.
How can you teach someone about something that is unknown.
If it's unknown it means there is no information about it.
That is what the unknown means.
So what you are really saying is that you are teaching people
based on your personal beliefs.
Just when i think I have heard it all. Someone remains never to
underestatment the human imagination.
By calling something psychic and giving properties and or examples of it.
It is no longer unknown.

[Ron]

@Drsick: The concept of the unknown, that my distinguished collegue speaks of, is that of uncertainty -- the inability to know, or to be perfectly certain of what exists in this universe.

For example, I tell you that there I saw a mother rabbit eat her offspring. Since you did not see it, you can not be certain that I speak true.

The concept of uncertainty also extends to the unknown future, in that we must accept that we can not be certain of a tomorrow; the unknown past, in that we must accept that we cannot be certain of history.

For exmaple, we cannot be certain of a tomorrow due to the fact that we may be hit by a car, or blown to pieces in a USA nuclear explosion, et cetera.

For example, we cannot be certain of the past that we have not lived through -- of pre-natal history -- because we were not there ourselves to experience it. We were not there to hear first hand accounts of the events. We must, in this fashion, be uncertain. Nevertheless, through repeated accounts, historical resources and personal research, as well as archaeology et cetera, we can develop a certain understanding of the past.

In this fashion the concept of uncertainty must also extend to the present; that we are unaware of all events occuring at this moment.

All of this is the concept of the unknown.

[Lunacie]

My rune set and tarot deck both include a rune or a card for "the unknown". They represent something that must stay hidden until the proper time.

Sometimes having a preconcieved idea of the outcome will weigh too heavily on how we handle a situation, at those times it's best to simply explore our choices, using our own instincts and intuition.

Or that rune or card may signify that the possibilities are endless in this situation.

[Rasenna]

Look, if a psychic went before the media pre-9/11 and tried to warn people, would anyone have taken him or her seriously? I mean, COME ON!!
~R

[DoktorSick]

@Drsick: The concept of the unknown, that my distinguished collegue speaks of, is that of uncertainty -- the inability to know, or to be perfectly certain of what exists in this universe.

For example, I tell you that there I saw a mother rabbit eat her offspring. Since you did not see it, you can not be certain that I speak true.

The concept of uncertainty also extends to the unknown future, in that we must accept that we can not be certain of a tomorrow; the unknown past, in that we must accept that we cannot be certain of history.

For exmaple, we cannot be certain of a tomorrow due to the fact that we may be hit by a car, or blown to pieces in a USA nuclear explosion, et cetera.

For example, we cannot be certain of the past that we have not lived through -- of pre-natal history -- because we were not there ourselves to experience it. We were not there to hear first hand accounts of the events. We must, in this fashion, be uncertain. Nevertheless, through repeated accounts, historical resources and personal research, as well as archaeology et cetera, we can develop a certain understanding of the past.

In this fashion the concept of uncertainty must also extend to the present; that we are unaware of all events occuring at this moment.

All of this is the concept of the unknown.

If you said you saw a mother rabbit eat young i can say that could happen
and believe what you said because it is known for a fact when under stress
a mother rabbit has been known to eat there young.
And to the other stuff you said.Whatever works for you.

[DoktorSick]

When I speak I know I am just expressing my opinion, not declaring reality. I need to clarify that. I know that reality is subjective, we make our reality by our experience, beliefs, traumas and the way we are wired.
What I mean about learning about the unknown, (you bring up a very good point Doktorsick) is changing the way we relate to the unknown. I think there is a difference between the unknown and the unknowable. It is all about how we relate to the mystery of life, and whether or not we are comfortable with an open ended universe (with a unified theory lets say that contains a lot of x's and y's, a flexible theory!) or we expect all of the cute little numbers and formulas to add up exactly, all the time! Have you ever read any quantum physics?
You remind me of my brother, a physicist who has the hardest time with this woowoo psychic stuff---the funny thing is, now he says to me "You are the exception to all the rules!" I think I actually helped to crack his cosmic egg when I challenged him to read quantum physics---now that is a mind blower!
I have spent a lifetime experiencing reality different than so many other people, and now am visualizing a way to build a bridge of understanding with others who simply have not experienced these things. This is not easy to do. Have a happy one~smiles~
yes I have.

[Ron]

If you said you saw a mother rabbit eat young i can say that could happen
and believe what you said because it is known for a fact when under stress
a mother rabbit has been known to eat there young.
And to the other stuff you said.Whatever works for you.
Why must you dismiss my discourse? You misunderstood what windoe said, and I attempted to help you understand. This all has nothing to do with "what works for me".

I used the rabbit example to show a metaphor -- a case: If I tell you something, or even if I bring you proof of what happened, you cannot know precisely what happened because you were not there to witness it.