Jotnar questions

[David19]

I'm hoping someone Heathens here will be able to help me out with something. Does anyone know if the Jotnar are gods or other things, i know they're giants, but are they also gods, as on a few sites, some say yes and some say no.

Also, does anyone worship the Jotnar, i've seen a few sites about worship of the Jotnar, and that there are some Heathens who do worship them, does anyone here, if so, is it basically the same as Asatru (except focusing on the Jotnar), or is it different.

I've also heard that Diana L. Paxson (i think she runs www.thetroth.com) has written an article on Jotnar worship, does anyone know if this is true and if so, is it available on the internet (someone said something about a book called Our Troth that was published by the troth and it's a free downloadable e-book, does anyone know where you can download it?).

Thanks, and hope that wasn't too many questions.

[Hærfest Leah]

As for some being like gods, I did find this thread for you on the subject......
http://www.asatrulore.org/thread.php?threadid=3464&sid=

I asked the worship part for you, maybe you will get the rest of your answer.

Hope I could help.

[Mjollnir]

I'm hoping someone Heathens here will be able to help me out with something. Does anyone know if the Jotnar are gods or other things, i know they're giants, but are they also gods, as on a few sites, some say yes and some say no.

Aegir is a Jotnar,Skadhi is a Jotnar,Freyrs wife Gerd is a Jotnar,Thors mistress is a Jotnar, and those are just a few,Aegir is hailed and honored by the brewers in the community and a few of my kin are Skadhi's men/women. Aegir also exemplifies hospitality, a heathen attribute.

Also, does anyone worship the Jotnar, i've seen a few sites about worship of the Jotnar, and that there are some Heathens who do worship them, does anyone here, if so, is it basically the same as Asatru (except focusing on the Jotnar), or is it different.

As I said, a few kin are dedicated to Skadhi, we held a blot in honor of Gerd just last May, Loki himself is also Jotun and a kinswoman is dedicated to him, and not the "does stupid stuff and say its cause of Loki type Lokean" but the serious kind.


I've also heard that Diana L. Paxson (i think she runs www.thetroth.com) has written an article on Jotnar worship, does anyone know if this is true and if so, is it available on the internet (someone said something about a book called Our Troth that was published by the troth and it's a free downloadable e-book, does anyone know where you can download it?).

Thanks, and hope that wasn't too many questions.

Their is a difference between worship of deities that are Jotnar and considered to be aligned with the Aesir, and outright baddie Jotuns like Surt,Hrungir,Hymir,Ymir and their kin or those that care to worship ones like Fenrir and Jormungand. If you have any more questions or want clarification,fire away.I have more to say but I am at work, just lemme know what ya wanna know.

[David19]

As for some being like gods, I did find this thread for you on the subject......
http://www.asatrulore.org/thread.php?threadid=3464&sid=

I asked the worship part for you, maybe you will get the rest of your answer.

Hope I could help.

Thanks for the site, it did help :).

[David19]

If you have any more questions or want clarification,fire away.I have more to say but I am at work, just lemme know what ya wanna know.

Thanks for the answers, they helped me understand some things, I do have another question though, if you don't mind, i know that some of (or all?) the Aesir(sp) have some Jotnar blood in them, and that people can be dedicated to those ones, but are there any who purely worship the Jotnar, on the link Seapearls gave, one poster said that there were worshippers of the Jotnar called Rokatru (or something like that) and that it was a bit different to Asatru, is it true, and how different would it be, like different rituals, offerings, etc (i've seen on some sites the Jotnar offerings usually include blood offerings, of any amount).

Also i've heard that the magic is different like Jotnar worshippers are usually more about blood magic, sex magic and other things, i think.

And just one final question, which i hope isn't too off topic, but how different are Asatru, Vanatru and Rokatru (i think that's it)?

Thanks.

[Mjollnir]

Thanks for the answers, they helped me understand some things, I do have another question though, if you don't mind, i know that some of (or all?) the Aesir(sp) have some Jotnar blood in them, and that people can be dedicated to those ones, but are there any who purely worship the Jotnar, on the link Seapearls gave, one poster said that there were worshippers of the Jotnar called Rokatru (or something like that) and that it was a bit different to Asatru, is it true, and how different would it be, like different rituals, offerings, etc (i've seen on some sites the Jotnar offerings usually include blood offerings, of any amount).

I have no clue as I have never heard of it, I would also have to wonder why one would want to worship Jotuns, and I am not talking about the Jotuns associated with the Aesir like the ones I mentioned.

Also i've heard that the magic is different like Jotnar worshippers are usually more about blood magic, sex magic and other things, i think.

LOL,ummmmm................ok? Sounds ridiculous to me, but hey.

And just one final question, which i hope isn't too off topic, but how different are Asatru, Vanatru and Rokatru (i think that's it)?

Thanks.

I know of no one here in the NorthEast Community who considers themselves strictly a Vanir follower, and I have met and know personally darn near all of em. The heathens here honor and work with both the Aesir and Vanir, none I know of work with any Jotnar other than ones I mentioned, and I honestly dont know why you would want to. It is the same as worshipping Fenrir or Jormungand.

[Carla O'Harris]

I have to second Mjollnir here. Worshipping the Jotuns (other than those included in the yards of the holy gods) is about as close to a) stupid and b) demonic as you can get in this tradition, with an emphasis on the former, as they're not too terribly bright and full of rage and chaos.

I understand that the "rokatru" are trying to construct some kind of darker Gnostique tradition, but worshipping Fenris and Jormungand is I think akin to wanting to worship a serial killer : sure, we might try to find the god that is hidden within that mess, but what's the point? At some point it just becomes revisionist nonsense : "oh, but Fenris and Jormungand have really just been misaligned!". Oh, really? and I suppose the same is true of Stalin, Hitler, and Dahmer as well? This is some weird combination of sloppy dark Gnostique and fluffiness --- you see, Fenris and Jormungand aren't all that bad anyway! Supposedly we "need both the light and the dark", they tell us. Hmmm, well if by that you mean that we need both night and day, and that life is lived in contrasts, sure, but if by that you mean that we "need" murder, rape, mayhem, etc., as if they were "necessities", I think that's nonsensical, and certainly against everything the holy gods desire.

And -- some Jotunns I think, of the more goblinish kind, crave some kind of worship, preying upon fear and greed and any human emotion or propensity they can propel out of control like the Roarer of Old (Ymir). What does one get out of that besides teen rebellion? And dangerous teen rebellion it seems to me.

[Hangatyr 13]

_handclapp

[Hærfest Leah]

Oh wait let me add another...._handclapp _handclapp

[Malcolm]

I'd be pissed and hate the Aesir as well if I was bound for the simple fact that I could be a threat. I don't think I'd have any qwalms about bitting someones hand of that tried, and succeded, in tricking me. For that matter if I'd been tethered my whole life, I might be a little anti-social. Sure Fenris is a dick, but I think he has good reason to be pissed.

To me its like blaming a dog that constantly gets poked with sticks for biting someone.

Edit: unless there is some part of the lore I'm forgeting....which could be the case.

[Mjollnir]

I'd be pissed and hate the Aesir as well if I was bound for the simple fact that I could be a threat. I don't think I'd have any qwalms about bitting someones hand of that tried, and succeded, in tricking me. For that matter if I'd been tethered my whole life, I might be a little anti-social. Sure Fenris is a dick, but I think he has good reason to be pissed.

To me its like blaming a dog that constantly gets poked with sticks for biting someone.

Aside from Hel, both Loki's offspring...Fenris especially...were already known to be the cause of great trouble and the downfall of the Gods, Vidar gets revenge by ripping Fenrir asunder after he swallows Odin, Jormungand is killed by Thor only to have Thor be mortally wounded himself,stumble back 9 steps and fall dead.


Edit: unless there is some part of the lore I'm forgeting....which could be the case.


Yup, a lot. There was no could be a threat, he was known to be a threat as he got older and knew what was going to happen.

[Malcolm]

Aside from Hel, both Loki's offspring...Fenris especially...were already known to be the cause of great trouble and the downfall of the Gods, Vidar gets revenge by ripping Fenrir asunder after he swallows Odin, Jormungand is killed by Thor only to have Thor be mortally wounded himself,stumble back 9 steps and fall dead.


This is all from ragnorock at the ramblings of a seer.

[Mjollnir]

This is all from ragnorock at the ramblings of a seer.


Ramblings that came to be, whats your point? Are you saying you agree with those worshipping Jotuns/Fenrir/Jormungand? That you yourself follow that? If so,why?

[Malcolm]

Of course not Mjollnir. I might lean towards Loki more than the rest of the Aesir but i certainly don't align myself with the jotnar.

I was under the impression that ragnorockk hadn't happened yet. So everything that was prophesized hasn't come to be yet. How do we know the seer wasn't yanking odins chain?

I'm just trying to point out that to often things get dismissed out of hand because the lore says so. I think that kind of blind loyallty to anything is dangerous.

No, I'm not calling you blind. its just my opinion.

[Mjollnir]

Of course not Mjollnir. I might lean towards Loki more than the rest of the Aesir but i certainly don't align myself with the jotnar.


And if I remember correctly, I sent you the information on him, correct? I hope you found it useful, any other stuff I come acrss I'll let you know, and did you get a hold of my kinswoman about him?

I was under the impression that ragnorockk hadn't happened yet. So everything that was prophesized hasn't come to be yet. How do we know the seer wasn't yanking odins chain?

Depending on who you talk to, it already has happened, it is happening, or it will.....................

I'm just trying to point out that to often things get dismissed out of hand because the lore says so. I think that kind of blind loyallty to anything is dangerous.

No, I'm not calling you blind. its just my opinion.

And anything not in the lore falls under the UPG category and must be mentioned as such as not to confuse people. It isnt like in the case of Loki, where a certain "duality' exists, he is sometimes on the side of the Gods, yet at other times he is the antagonist, Fenrir,Jormungand and the Jotnar...again,excluding ones mentioned and discussed...have one single minded purpose, and it isn't a pretty one.

[Malcolm]

And if I remember correctly, I sent you the information on him, correct? I hope you found it useful, any other stuff I come acrss I'll let you know, and did you get a hold of my kinswoman about him?


I did. It was very helpful thank you. I talked with her a few times. She definately knows her stuff.

Depending on who you talk to, it already has happened, it is happening, or it will.....................

Heh, yea. never a hard and fast answer in this whacky thing is there. :)

And anything not in the lore falls under the UPG category and must be mentioned as such as not to confuse people. It isnt like in the case of Loki, where a certain "duality' exists, he is sometimes on the side of the Gods, yet at other times he is the antagonist, Fenrir,Jormungand and the Jotnar...again,excluding ones mentioned and discussed...have one single minded purpose, and it isn't a pretty one.

Oh definately not. I see the jotnar as more "primal" forces. I don't want ot say unintelligent but more single minded in purpose.

Sorry for derailing this thread...

[Mjollnir]

I did. It was very helpful thank you. I talked with her a few times. She definately knows her stuff.

So you did get a hold of her? Awesome......



Oh definately not. I see the jotnar as more "primal" forces. I don't want ot say unintelligent but more single minded in purpose.

Sorry for derailing this thread...

Oh they definitely are and they are not unintelligent at all, at least some, look at Utgard-Loki as an example. You didnt derail the thread at all, these things need to be asked and answered.

[David19]

So, can basically the Jotnar that are allied with the Aesir(sp) are good and the one's that aren't are evil, right.

I've got another question, but hope it isn't too off topic, when you talk about Ragnarok, what happens in it, i've heard that most of the gods die, does that include the Jotnar or do they survive, also would Ragnarok only affect the Norse gods (for example, even if the Norse ones get 'killed', would Zeus, the other Olympians, Yahweh, etc survive?).

Thanks.

[Mjollnir]

So, can basically the Jotnar that are allied with the Aesir(sp) are good and the one's that aren't are evil, right.

For lack of better words,yup.

I've got another question, but hope it isn't too off topic, when you talk about Ragnarok, what happens in it, i've heard that most of the gods die, does that include the Jotnar or do they survive, also would Ragnarok only affect the Norse gods (for example, even if the Norse ones get 'killed', would Zeus, the other Olympians, Yahweh, etc survive?).

Thanks.

Yup, a few gods survive, everything else is pretty much laid bare, as far as who or what Ragnarok effects, I would have to say from our viewpoint, its buh-bye.

[David19]

Yup, a few gods survive, everything else is pretty much laid bare, as far as who or what Ragnarok effects, I would have to say from our viewpoint, its buh-bye.

Thanks, when you say that the Norse gods will die, how does it happen? this may be a dumb question, but do the Norse ones have corporeal bodies or do they die in human terms (e.g. can't come back) or is it more like beings 'mystically or supernaturally' imprisioned somewhere?

Also about other gods, the Greek ones are called beyond death and the immortals, so, in your opinion or anyone else's, would they survive?

Hope that made some sense :)

[Mjollnir]

Thanks, when you say that the Norse gods will die, how does it happen?

Fenris kills Odin, Fenris is killed by Vidar, Jormungand and Thor kill each other, Tyr and the hound Garm kill each other, Heimdall and Loki kill each other, Freyr is killed by Surt....cause he gave his sword to his servant Skirnir to woo Gerd...some survive to start over, most are gone, at the end Surt destroys everything by setting the world ablaze as fire flings from his sword, supposedly 2 humans, Lif and Lifthrasir also survive.


this may be a dumb question, but do the Norse ones have corporeal bodies or do they die in human terms (e.g. can't come back) or is it more like beings 'mystically or supernaturally' imprisioned somewhere?

According to the lore, they die, Odin took on human form on his visits to Midgard, they also needed to consume the golden apples Idunna was in charge of or they started to "grow old", see the myth about The Theft of Idun's Apples



Also about other gods, the Greek ones are called beyond death and the immortals, so, in your opinion or anyone else's, would they survive?

Hope that made some sense :)

I do not want to speculate on other pantheons, I feel each creation/end of world myths are unique to the peoples they belong to.

[David19]

Thanks, that's answered a lot of the questions i've had about the Norse gods, i've also heard that Ragnarok was prophecised(sp) by a powerful volva (i think that was the name), is this true, and also if it is, are Volva's human or are they supernatural beings.

Also, in the lore, does it say when Ragnarok takes place, or what signs will lead up to Ragnarok?

Thanks.

[Carla O'Harris]

Thanks, when you say that the Norse gods will die, how does it happen? this may be a dumb question, but do the Norse ones have corporeal bodies or do they die in human terms (e.g. can't come back) or is it more like beings 'mystically or supernaturally' imprisioned somewhere?

Also about other gods, the Greek ones are called beyond death and the immortals, so, in your opinion or anyone else's, would they survive?

Hope that made some sense :)

We know for certain that Balder, Hodur, Hoenir, Njord, Vidar, Vali, Magni, and Modi survive Ragnarok (that is eight gods for certain ; seven of the Aesir, one the clan chieftain of the Vanir) to rule over a new Golden Age, which is the entire point of Ragnarok. Some Asatruars lose sight of this fact, but our cognate Zoroastrian brothers demonstrate this conclusively : the point of Ragnarok is to rid the world of the evil forces so that the Golden Age can rule again and to that end the jotunn who are also thurs are destroyed in that battle.

There could be a case made for Mimir surviving ; obviously the Wyrd Sisters also survive, and a case could actually be made for the survival of Odin, although that would be controversial, and even, if one wanted to stretch it, of Thor.

Your question about the nature of their death is a good one. This could be argued either way. Other beings have to die two deaths to be fully dead ; those who go to Niflhel die the second death from which there is no recovery, for example, while those who go to regular Hel (a blissful ancestral place) still have their life, and enhanced, in fact. When Balder died, he had obviously not died the second death because he returns. Ragnarok has an edge of finality to it, so you could argue that it affects the gods at the deeper "second" level, but then again, it may be that the gods that have died go into the underworld to rule down there as underworld gods after Ragnarok. The fact of the matter is that in such matters the material is so sketchy that each person is probably going to have to make their judgement call based on the evidence ; for example, you couldn't argue in open court that the Eddas say that Odin will survive, or you'd be laughed out, but you certainly could make a case --- how many people would accept it would be another story altogether.

[Carla O'Harris]

Also about other gods, the Greek ones are called beyond death and the immortals, so, in your opinion or anyone else's, would they survive?


Greek gods don't exist within the Norse pantheon, so the Norse pantheon has nothing to say about them one way or another.

And to be more precise, in many ways, the Greek gods are the cognates of the Norse gods, with some variations and exceptions, of course.

The racialists and folkists are fond of invoking some kind of fruit salad multiple pantheon whereby depending on your ancestry, you have different gods ruling the heavens and the earth, but personally, I think this is a silly and contradictory idea.

[Carla O'Harris]

Thanks, that's answered a lot of the questions i've had about the Norse gods, i've also heard that Ragnarok was prophecised(sp) by a powerful volva (i think that was the name), is this true, and also if it is, are Volva's human or are they supernatural beings.

Also, in the lore, does it say when Ragnarok takes place, or what signs will lead up to Ragnarok?

Thanks.

That's a good question. Generally speaking volvas are human ; however, in this realm, they may be said to partake of divinity. Tacitus indicated that prophetic women amongst the Germanic folk were considered to partake of divinity, and this would definitely apply to Veleda.

Strong arguments have been made that the vala in Voluspa is either Gullveig or Wyrd (Urd), but I think the stronger argument has been made for the latter.

Vigrid is the plain where Ragnarok will take place ; that's documented in Vafthruthnismal. There are many signs :

45. Brothers shall fight,
and slay each other;
cousins shall
kinship violate.
The earth resounds,
the giantesses flee;
no man will
another spare.

46. Hard is it in the world,
great whoredom,
an axe age, a sword age,
sheilds will be cloven,
a wind age, a wolf age,
ere the world sinks.

Plus the "fimbulwinter", a winter beyond all other winters.

So it's pretty hard to escape it. It's similar to signs of the Apocalypse in Revelations, which is no wonder, as that vision is grounded in an IndoEuropean context as well.

[David19]

Greek gods don't exist within the Norse pantheon, so the Norse pantheon has nothing to say about them one way or another.

And to be more precise, in many ways, the Greek gods are the cognates of the Norse gods, with some variations and exceptions, of course.

The racialists and folkists are fond of invoking some kind of fruit salad multiple pantheon whereby depending on your ancestry, you have different gods ruling the heavens and the earth, but personally, I think this is a silly and contradictory idea.

Thanks for the answers, to both you and Mjollnir, it's helped a lot. I know that the Greek gods aren't a part of the Norse pantheon, i just wanted to know whether, in people's own personal opinions, whether they think Ragnarok would affect any of the other gods, apart from the Norse, since just because they're not part of the Norse pantheon, doesn't mean they don't exist, same with Yahweh, the Egyptian gods, Sumerian gods, etc.

[Rasenna]

Good question, David. I've often wondered that myself...
~R

[Hangatyr 13]

The racialists and folkists are fond of invoking some kind of fruit salad multiple pantheon whereby depending on your ancestry, you have different gods ruling the heavens and the earth, but personally, I think this is a silly and contradictory idea.I can't speak for the racialists, but I can correctly speak for the folkists when I say that our answer to "What happens to the Greek gods at Ragnarok?" is "Who cares?"

[Malcolm]

Nothing happens to them because they aren't there.

[Mjollnir]

I can't speak for the racialists, but I can correctly speak for the folkists when I say that our answer to "What happens to the Greek gods at Ragnarok?" is "Who cares?"


It makes sense, does it not? I mean, do you think the Kemetics,Druids,Celtics or any other group is concerned with what happens to another?

[Mjollnir]

Nothing happens to them because they aren't there.


They were a minute ago, DAMMIT Malcolm, I TOLD you to keep an eye on them....................

[David19]

I'd thought i'd bump this up as i've just read this interesting article by Diana Paxson, i think a co-creator of The Troth or something, called 'Utgard: the role of the jotnar in the religion of the north' (http://www.hrafnar.org/norse/utgard.html).

It's interesting 'cause it examines various things about the jotnar and also does go and say there's evidence some were worshipped or honoured.

Here's some of what she says:

We need the giants as we need the wilderness, as a source of the nourishment required for our physical and spiritual survival. They provide psychological stability by aligning the powers of nature and protection at the species level, for they are the spiritual ancestors of all living things. Even apparent chaos may hold a hidden harmony. This does not mean abandoning intellect and technology and returning to the primitive, but as we use the gifts of the gods, we should remember that even Thor does not attempt to completely exterminate his enemies. These days perhaps we ought to be supporting the Jotnar rather than fighting them.

Anyway, just wanted to get peoples opinions on this :).

[Carla O'Harris]

I like Paxson tremendously, but I do think in general this is a modern view. I think it tends to misunderstand that jotunns do not represent merely "natural forces" but out-of-control natural forces that are out of proportion. I am familiar with this quote, however, and it certainly does represent an interesting perspective. It's interesting, but I disagree with it.

[ModernKnight]

So it's pretty hard to escape it. It's similar to signs of the Apocalypse in Revelations, which is no wonder, as that vision is grounded in an IndoEuropean context as well.

Either that, or it could be a direct /christian influence. After all, it was written in Latin letters and only clergy could teach them. In fact, since the last couple stanzas clearly reference the Christian god as overlord over all gods, I rather suspect that the whole tale of Ragnarok is a Christian influence. Iceland had been converted for around 200 years before Voluspa was composed, and Norsemen had contact with Christians for hundreds of years before that.

[Carla O'Harris]

Voluspa was composed far before then. And I do not find the reference to "clearly" refer to the Christian god at all.

[Hærfest Leah]

I'd thought i'd bump this up as i've just read this interesting article by Diana Paxson, i think a co-creator of The Troth or something, called 'Utgard: the role of the jotnar in the religion of the north' (http://www.hrafnar.org/norse/utgard.html).

It's interesting 'cause it examines various things about the jotnar and also does go and say there's evidence some were worshipped or honoured.

Here's some of what she says:



Anyway, just wanted to get peoples opinions on this :).


That is a good article, I read it not long ago as it was included in the Jotnar section of Our Troth.

[ModernKnight]

Voluspa was composed far before then. And I do not find the reference to "clearly" refer to the Christian god at all.

It's a poem from an oral tradition, written down by a Christian trained at a monestary in a country where Christianity has been the only legal religion for 200 years and Vikings interacted with Christians longer than that, and you don't think any Christian influences could have come into the poem during all that time? This is not credible, and reveals an ignorance of how oral traditions work. The fact is, Stanza 64 is obviously a Christian interpolation.

64. Then comes the mighty one
to the great judgement,
the powerful from above,
who rules o’er all.
He shall dooms pronounce,
and strifes allay,
holy peace establish,
which shall ever be.

There are other obvious Christian influences laced all through the lore. They're not hard to find, once you get an idea of how to look for them.

[Carla O'Harris]

Bullsh** is that Christian influence. You're just importing that concept because you don't understand the import of the stanza.

I don't think there are Christian influences in the poem because the Indo-European influences are far too extensive, and besides, this issue was already decided in the debate against Bugge over a hundred years ago, and it was decided against Bugge.

[ModernKnight]

I was ready to provide archeological evidence for the Christian influences in the Eddas, but your post to the human sacrifice topic sufficiently demonstrated that you are dogmatic in your opinions, and you are willing to ignore any evidence that conflicts with your them. Have fun with your dogma.

[Hærfest Leah]

I was ready to provide archeological evidence for the Christian influences in the Eddas, but your post to the human sacrifice topic sufficiently demonstrated that you are dogmatic in your opinions, and you are willing to ignore any evidence that conflicts with your them.


:jawdrop: No way...

[Carla O'Harris]

I was ready to provide archeological evidence for the Christian influences in the Eddas, but your post to the human sacrifice topic sufficiently demonstrated that you are dogmatic in your opinions, and you are willing to ignore any evidence that conflicts with your them. Have fun with your dogma.

Bring it on ... I may get a kick out of how you are going to demonstrate archeological evidence for Christian influences in the Eddas. Through runestones? Because that's about the only thing I can imagine being argued to have any influence. Assuming that a similarity in motifs represents a Christian-to-Eddic directionality has no priority ; it could just as easily represent an Eddic selection of motifs found in common. But bring it on ... I'm curious to see how you'll argue this.