Doreen Vialante and the 3 fold law

[David19]

I think it was in the book, The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0806524073/qid=1142787497/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/002-0778611-8152026?s=books&v=glance&n=283155), it said that Doreent Vialante didn't believe in the 3 fold law, even though many wiccans did, has anyone else heard this, since i thought it was a major wiccan beleif, but after hearing that and considering Vialante was called 'the mother of wicca' i think, then who originally put the 3 fold law into wicca, was it purely a new age thing that a writer just invented or did someone else put it in there.

Also, are there any other wiccans who don't believe in the 3 fold law or karma?

Thanks.

[Theres]

it's Valiente.

and i didn't buy into the 3-FL when i was Wiccan, although i have always understood the workings of karma.

[Morgandria]

*raises her hand* Wiccan. Don't believe in 3-fold or karma, and not particularily fond of the Rede, either.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

*raises hand* Wiccan, and don't believe in the tree-fold law OR Rede. There is a distressing tendency among people at the WCC to say that since you're a magical practitioner it comes back times NINE, which I think is just a one-upping, ie, "See how much more moral we are than you?!?"
Saying that something's gonna come back and get you several times over is merely a scare tactic enforced on us by the fluffiness of the 1980-1990's when people were anxious to make Wicca seem ever so nice and harmless. The bastardization of karma is really anooying to me. I don't think karma would work that way. I think that if you did something 'bad' with absolutely no justification, you'd probably get thwapped upside the head in some way or another. Revenge is just righting a (occasionally percieved) wrong done against you or someone you know and care about. It's settling the score, and anything beyond that would (to my mind) constitute agression.
Now, as for 'Harm none', the oldets reference I have for that is Gardner's Old Laws, which explain that the Wica should harm none for the simple reason that if no-one is being hurt through witchcraft, no-one can be accused of it, and therefore witch hunting will come to an end. Since we no longer have Christian spies running around thinking 'An I can but catch one of the Wicca, I shall scape this firey pit' the idea of 'harm none' was irrelevant from the very beginnings of Wiccan practice.
Now, that said, I don't think that there's a general magical 'license to kill'. I mean, really, a curse or binding should only be used when you need to and possibly, when all other options are impossible. For example, I once put a Binding on a certain polititian (guess who?) because his actions affect the entire world and I am not a citizen of his country, so I have no legal say in what he does.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Here's the exact part of the Laws I was quoting:

In the olden days when we had power, we could use our Arts against any who illtreated any of the Brotherhood. But in these Evil Times, we may not do so, For our enimies have devised a burning pit of everlasting fire, into which they say their God casteth all the people who worship him, except it be the very few who are released by their priestes spells and Masses. and this be chiefly by giving money and rich gifts to recieve his favour, for their Alther Greatest God is ever in need of Money.

But as our Gods need our aid to make fertility for men and crops. So the God of the Christians is ever in need of mans help to search out and destroy us. Theyir priests tell them that any who get our help or our cures are dammned to this Hell forever, so men be mad for the terror of it,. But they make men believe that they may scape this hell if they give victims to the tormenters. So for this reason. All be forever spying, thinking an I can but catch one of the Wica I will scape this fiery pit.

But we have our hidels, and men searching long and not finding say, "there be none, or lf they be, they be in a far country." But, when one of our oppressors die. or, even be sick, ever is the cry "This be Witches Malice." and the hunt is up again. and though they slay ten of their people, to one of ours, still. they care not, they have many thousands, while we are few indeed.

So it is Ardane, that none shall use the Art in any way to do ill to any. how evermuch they have injured us. And for long we have obeyed this law. "Harm none" and nowtimes, many believe we exist not. So it be Ardane that this law shall still continue to help us in our plight. "No one, however great an injury or injustace they recieve, may use the Art in any to do ill or harm any."

But, they may, after great consulations with all, use the Art to prevent or restrain Christians from harming us and others. but only to let or constrain them and never to punish. To this end. Men say, "Such an one is a mighty searcher our and persecutor of Old Women whom he deemeth to be Witches. and none hath done him Skith. so this be proof they cannot, or more truely, that there be none." For all know full well, that so many folk have died because somone had a grudge against them, or were persecuted because they had money or goods to sieze. or because they had none to bribe the searchers. And many have died because they were scolding old women. So much so, that men now say that only Old Women are witches. And this be to our advantage, and turns suspicion away from us. ln England tis now many it year since a witch hath died the death. but any misuse of the power might raise the Persecution again. So never break this law, however much you are tempted. and never consent to its being broken, lf you know it is being broken in the least, you must work strongly against it, And any High Priestess or High Priest who consentes to it must be immediatly deposed. For tis the Blood of the Bretherin they endanger. Do good, an it be safe, and only if it be safe, for any talk may endanger us. And strictly keep to the Old Law, never accept money for the use of the Art, for money ever smeares the taker, Tis Carcerors and Conjurers and Priests of Christ who ever accept money for the use of their Arts. and they sell Dwale and evil love spells and pardons to let men scape from their sins. Be not as these. "Be not as these" lf you accept not money, you will be free of temptation to use the Art for evil causes. All may use the Art for your own advantage, or for the advantage of the Craft, only if you be sure you harm none. But ever let the Coven debate the matter at length, only if all are satisfied that none may be harmed may the Art be used. lf it is not possible to achieve your ends one way without harming any, pervhance the aim may be achieved by acting in a different way, so as to harm none. May the Curse of the Goddes, be on any who breach this law. So It be ardane.

I got this from http://wicca.timerift.net

[Greyharp]

As a Wiccan, I don't believe in the 3 fold law and instead think of it as the Law of Return. But then even before I became a Wiccan, I always believed in what goes round comes round.

[Carla O'Harris]

I think it's a good guideline. Revenge is evil in most cases, because most humans are far too narcissistic and unable to hold and distinguish good boundaries to be acting like punitive gods. I think it's a very, very good guideline to warn people against taking revenge or harming others. I don't think anyone without a very rigorous ethical system has any business messing in things that can affect others. That has nothing to do with fluffiness, and everything to do with good sense and humility. It is not our job nor place to act as magical star chambers acting as judge, jury, and executioner. I've seen far, far too many cases where people "feel" they have been "injured", and it's just their own narcissistic wounding wanting an excuse to lash out. We've all experienced this, and since witchcraft has a tendency to attract marginals (amongst many others), I think it is very important to emphasize very strict ethical guidelines.

As to whether things come back at one "times three", who knows? But again, I'd interpret it in the way that Gardner intended many of these things. His "An ye harm none, do what ye will" is less some literal ancient law passed between people, and more an articulation of a kind of sense about things, a libertarian ethic embracing broad, expansive rights and pleasures --- that end at the nose of the rights and pleasures of one's neighbor. It's a very succint, pithy ethical guideline. In this case, I think the point is --- 'you'd better be very, very careful, because magic tends to iterate, and once released, cascades beyond your control, and will end up affecting you'. It's a guideline to be careful about the kind of world we want to create. I don't mean to drag Kant in here but his categorical imperative seems relevant -- to will such that if your will were to become the general will, you'd be ok with that. Or as Jesus and many others have said, you'll be measured by the measure you mete out. Obviously there are always exceptions, and witches attend to exceptions. Historically we've been the one to attend to the exceptions that no lawbearers have wanted to acknowledge, and we often heal through those exceptions. But this "threefold law" is I believe reminding us of our immense responsibility, and an acknowledgement that whatever we do will affect us, and will come back to haunt us, good or bad, sometimes in highly magnified ways. That doesn't mean postulating some kind of cosmic "accountant" tabulating "tit for tat" and sending out punitive cosmic "fines" or "punishments". In a way, it's just a rule for those participating in the awesomeness of godliness to acknowledge --- your creative powers affect the world around you, so be sure your actions are in tune with your intentions --- not the intentions of the moment, but your desires for the kind of world that you really want to live in --- and acknowledge that creativity has a life of its own and once you create it will expand even beyond your own will.

I think these are good lessons.

[Dawa Lhamo]

I firmly believe the Rede is an ethical guideline (AKA advice) and a good one, not a moral directive.

I still have qualms about the "threefold law"... The only way I can justify it in my mind is that perhaps it's a reminder that our actions work on others and ourselves in multi-dimensional ways (3D?), not just "eye for an eye". As far as *amplification* or *magnification*, I just can't see it in those terms. I have yet to hear a good metaphysical argument why it would magnify 3x.

So that would be a metaphorical/ethical interpretation, not a literal/metaphysical/moral interpretation, I suppose.

Karma or the Law of Return work just as well, IMO.

As far as Doreen Valiente goes: However, even those who worked closely with Gardner, such as Doreen Valiente could offer no definitive answer to Gardner's personal take on the Three-fold Law (http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/3fl-3.shtml). In an interview in 1991 Valiente states, "I think old Gerald cooked it up in one of his rituals, and people took it terribly literally."
Tashi delek!
Dawa Lhamo

[HetHert]

While Valiente might be the mother of witchcraft/wicca (there is a bit of confusion on the title as I have seen it stated as both) she states that she didn't use the term, she preferred to think of herself as belonging too and practicing "the old religion".
http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos620.htm
Just thought I'd throw that in there.
And this link adequately lays out the history of the 3fold law and it association to Gardenarian/Alexandrian tradition.

As for me...I believe that if you believe it and will it as a moral/rule/virtue you live by than you will manifest it as a force within your universe.

[Stephanie Taylor]

I like Grimassi's take on the subject, from his book The Witches' Craft:

Witches believe that both positive and negative energies return (in some related aspect) back to the originator of those energies. This is sometimes referred to as The Three-Fold Law. Essentially this law addresses a magickal principle in which energy creates a cause and effect relationship. This energy reaction affects us on three levels: the mind, spirit, and body. This is why it is called the Three-Fold Law. In modern Wicca, this principle has been altered to mean that whatever energy one sends out, comes back three times that amount (in a cause and effect relationship). However, there is no corresponding law of physics to match this neo-Wiccan concept.

Our thoughts are energy-forms that influence our aura. The state of our aura soon becomes the state of our physical well-being. Our physical condition then influences our mental state. This in turn influences our spirituality, and therein lies the law of three-fold return. In other words, our thoughts and deeds create energies that draw back to us energies of a like nature. Once absorbed into our aura they penetrate into our mind, body and spirit. This is the three-fold nature.

We experience this interplay of energy quite often even in our mundane lives. Sometimes the mere presence of a person, who is unknown to us, can be disturbing and we do not want this person near us. Other times we may not want to sit in a certain area, or be in a certain place for no real apparent reason. There are times when we sense that a place or situation "feels wrong" and we want to leave. These are all mundane examples of how an aura receives energy that in turn causes changes within our consciousness.

[Ben Gruagach]

Doreen Valiente discusses her understanding of the ethics of witchcraft (at least in the Wiccan form of witchcraft that she practiced) in her book "Witchcraft for Tomorrow." Chapter 2, "Witch Ethics," goes into pretty good detail.

She is pretty clear that she believed in Karma, and that Gardner was a strong believer in it as well. However her explanation of what Karma is doesn't sound much like the oversimplified stuff that some pass off as Wiccan philosophy these days. Valiente's explanation of Karma sounds to me to be pretty standard Hindu philosophy (based on my own limited knowledge of Hindu and Buddhist philosophy of course.) Valiente also discusses the Wiccan Rede in that chapter and other issues of ethics regarding witchcraft and is definitely worth checking out.