Kemetic 'apocalypse'

[David19]

I was just reading about Ragnarok in another thread and was just wondering, in the ancient egyptian religion, was there ever a prophecy or anything similar, about an apocalypse, i know there are lots of creation myths, but are there any that talk about an 'apocalypse' or Egyptian 'Ragnarok', if so, what is involved in it, like in the Norse Ragnarok, some of the gods die, is there something similar in the Kemetic belief or are the gods immortal (like can't die), which also brings up something else, if the gods are immortal, howcome Osiris can die?

Thanks, and hope that made some sense :).

[Ishtara]

The answer very much depends on how you define apocalypse.
If, like myself, you define it as the ultimate destruction of the world accompanied by the salvation of the righteous, I would say there is no such thing in the Ancient Egyptian religion.

There is, however, a Kemetic end of times when there will be no Gods and no men. Only the primeval God and Wesir will remain. The physical world will return to the Nun (primeval water).
The end of the world is not a very common theme in Egyptian literature. Like you said, the Ancient Egyptians apparently much preferred creation myths. The reason might be that the end of the world had to do with chaos / isfet and that they thought best not to write too much about it.

Yes, the Ancient Egyptian Gods can die. Besides Wesir, it could be said that all the solar Gods, being reborn every morning, have to die every night. The Book of Caverns also clearly shows the sarcophagi and corpses of various Gods.

This is all to be put into the context of the constantly renewed cycle of life and death, though. Most Gods do not die "for good" and will be reborn in the morning. The end of the world itself is seen as taking place in a very distant future. It is a like the death of the sun: we know that it will happen, but since scientists tell us that it will not be before another 4 billion years, we do not exactly obsess over it :)

[TaysatWesir]

There is, however, a Kemetic end of times when there will be no Gods and no men. Only the primeval God and Wesir will remain. The physical world will return to the Nun (primeval water).


That's how I would define it too.

[David19]

The answer very much depends on how you define apocalypse.
If, like myself, you define it as the ultimate destruction of the world accompanied by the salvation of the righteous, I would say there is no such thing in the Ancient Egyptian religion.

There is, however, a Kemetic end of times when there will be no Gods and no men. Only the primeval God and Wesir will remain. The physical world will return to the Nun (primeval water).
The end of the world is not a very common theme in Egyptian literature. Like you said, the Ancient Egyptians apparently much preferred creation myths. The reason might be that the end of the world had to do with chaos / isfet and that they thought best not to write too much about it.

Yes, the Ancient Egyptian Gods can die. Besides Wesir, it could be said that all the solar Gods, being reborn every morning, have to die every night. The Book of Caverns also clearly shows the sarcophagi and corpses of various Gods.

This is all to be put into the context of the constantly renewed cycle of life and death, though. Most Gods do not die "for good" and will be reborn in the morning. The end of the world itself is seen as taking place in a very distant future. It is a like the death of the sun: we know that it will happen, but since scientists tell us that it will not be before another 4 billion years, we do not exactly obsess over it :)

Cool, thanks for the help, it explained a lot to me, but when you say there will be no gods, only the one and wesir, how come, will the others die, and i think the one is netjer, but who is wesir?

[Ishtara]

The Primeval God is usually interpreted as being Atum. I did not name Him directly because as you know Ancient Egyptian myths often differ on who is the Creator God. Here, what really matters is that the Primeval God is the one who was there before the very beginning and will be there after the very end.

Wesir is the "real" (ie Egyptian) name of Osiris. Osiris is the Greek version.

I do not think that I ever came across a text that stated explicitly what would happen to the other Gods. Hopefully someone better read than I am will help us here.
Maybe the Gods simply stop being reborn in the morning. The way I see it, They may just stop existing independently as Names of Netjer and return to the indifferentiated state that came before Creation.
Since the Names are Gods, I do not think that the modalities of life and death apply to Them exactly the way they apply to mankind. Maybe They can cease to exist without experiencing death in its physical sense.

[Temwa]

The way I've come to understand it, there is no huge "end of the world - FOREVER!" line of thought in the Kemetic world view to speak of, at least not in the way of Ragnarök. Rather, the universe goes through cycles of renewal and destruction all the time. Each day is a symbol of that - the day dies and the world is "destroyed" every night, and born again each morning. Zep tepi, over and over. :)

[Erincelt]

In terms of "only The One and Wesir" remaining, remember that Wesir is not only a God, but also a title of the Akhu (Blessed Dead). So maybe it says that Netjer and the Shining Kingdom in the West will persist even after this world is no more and the next is blossoming. (Yes I assume there will be a next.)

[Ishtara]

In terms of "only The One and Wesir" remaining, remember that Wesir is not only a God, but also a title of the Akhu (Blessed Dead). So maybe it says that Netjer and the Shining Kingdom in the West will persist even after this world is no more and the next is blossoming. (Yes I assume there will be a next.)

That is a very interesting way to look at it. I, too, believe that there will be another world after this one ends. After all, from what the texts say, the world will return to the state it was in before creation, it is not as if all potential for life and creation is irremediably destroyed.

[David19]

Thanks, for all the help, guys, it's made me understand a bit more about Kemetic beliefs :), hopefully when the next class starts, i should understand a bit more.

One thing, when i read that the gods stop existing or die (if they can die), i had an idea that maybe it means in the 'end' (whenever it is), maybe Apothis (and chaos, i think, i can't remember the Kemetic name) manage to take 'out balence' Maat and that causes the world and gods to 'suffer', then after only the dead and Netjer survive.

I probably don't make much sense and probably sound like i watch too much Buffy or Charmed, but, it made more sense in my head :), anyway, i hope it made some sense.

[amunakht]

There is, however, a Kemetic end of times when there will be no Gods and no men. Only the primeval God and Wesir will remain.

Ishtara, I had it understood that there will be a time when the universe "uncoils" itself and so it and the gods will be gone but you talk about only the creator (amun, nun, atum) and Asar (variant spelling:Wesir) being the only remaining gods. Can you explain this further?

[David19]

Ishtara, I had it understood that there will be a time when the universe "uncoils" itself and so it and the gods will be gone but you talk about only the creator (amun, nun, atum) and Asar (variant spelling:Wesir) being the only remaining gods. Can you explain this further?

That's a good point as i'd also be interested in learning about the Kemetic 'end times' (i've got some kind of wierd 'fascination' with apocalyptic scenario's, Lol), so if anyone knows anything, feel free to add.