Will wicca die out?

[TheGreekLegend]

yea "Witan" helps to "soften" the pagan issue or burdeon on greek people that are coming from another religion. Widan is the "correct" way of spelling, but Witan is a "childish" (for lack of better word) of saying wicca/wiccan/

[Lunacie]

Can't say I've ever seen "Widan" before.

[TheGreekLegend]

exactly. it's just not said. the populace uses the more care-free word.

[TheGreekLegend]

and actually, the more you look at the site (if you can understand greek) they just sort of chose "witan" as a play on i guess the English. (We always kind of thought the English a bit slow...but that's more of a political agenda i think. :)) According to the site, Witan was the gathering of the old English nobles to help pick/explain a topic to the king.

so theoretically i guess it's the pagans of greece accepting a new religion over catholicism? and don't ask me why greeks don't like the english. i really don't know. ;)

[Lunacie]

and actually, the more you look at the site (if you can understand greek) they just sort of chose "witan" as a play on i guess the English. (We always kind of thought the English a bit slow...but that's more of a political agenda i think. :)) According to the site, Witan was the gathering of the old English nobles to help pick/explain a topic to the king.

so theoretically i guess it's the pagans of greece accepting a new religion over catholicism? and don't ask me why greeks don't like the english. i really don't know. ;)

Nope, I can't read Greek, and I didn't actually look at the website before. The part that was in English says that this new Witan group is based on the Corellian tradition, and there is some controversy about whether they are authentically Wiccan at all. http://mysticwicks.com/images/icons/icon11.gif

Ya know, that may well be where I read the word Witan, in reference to English history. :hahugh:

[TheGreekLegend]

:) yea it could be. i still to this day don't know why greeks think the english are "slow and dumb." i'm still trying to find the reason. i really don't think the greek even battled the english. am i wrong?

[and the "playful"ness of using the Witan word (which translated to greek would either be Widan or Wikkan, choose your flavor of greek :)) just helps to show that it's not meant as a greek-icized version of the usa wiccan.]

[TheGreekLegend]

so the intention is not to be wiccan, but have our own little form of paganism that shares ideas with Widan, but mostly borrow from italian witchery. i hope you understand as i'm begining to confuse even myself. :( :)

[Lunacie]

so the intention is not to be wiccan, but have our own little form of paganism that shares ideas with Widan, but mostly borrow from italian witchery. i hope you understand as i'm begining to confuse even myself. :( :)

Welcome to the CYC (Confuse Yourself Club), I've been a member for years. ;)

There are a growing number of blended religions such as Christo-Pagan and I'm sure some have been practicing Stregha-Pagan or Stregha-Wiccan for quite a while now.

[Carla O'Harris]

Every one of your posts has the tagline "I Fight The Backlash and Put It In Its Place!" -- which is pretty clear in its meaning. Those who disagree with you are the Backlash, the NeoPagan Agenda, and you are a holy warrior who is "putting us in our place!" in defense of the One True Belief.

Wow, you're doing a lot of projecting. Might want to take a look at that. The backlash goes waaay beyond paganism. You might want to reference Susan Faludi in reference to my quote. In general, since the 1960's, there has been a terrible cultural backlash, as a part of so-called "cultural wars". My struggle within pagan communities is only one aspect of that larger struggle.

It seems pretty clear -- and it's not a moderate stance by any stretch of the imagination.

This seems to me to be characteristic of an atmosphere I would call "playgan". "Playgans" find any show of passion, loyalty, and devotion to be extreme because so many of them are simply "soft agnostics" who take any sign of strength and intensity as a sign of something being wrong. I don't call lack of passion "moderation" ; I have another word for it : mediocrity. And lest that be taken as a sign of disrespect towards anyone in particular, I am using this as a rubric, and not as an insult towards anyone in particular. I am not accusing you of being a "playgan", but I am critiquing a general tendency.

Disagreement is definitely permitted but a line is crossed when those you disagree with are labeled as "not Real" Wiccans or Pagans or whatever. When we're labelled with derogatory monikers such as the NeoPagan Agenda (poorly cribbed from the Religious Right who identify their arch enemy as the Gay Agenda), or as a purported Backlash against "real" Wicca/Witchcraft/Paganism.

This is really projection. I haven't "poorly cribbed" anything from the Religious Right. This is absurd. People can have agendas. It has nothing to do with the semantics of the right-wing. Right-wing cultural politics are part of the backlash I am fighting against, so let's get real here.

You or anyone else may not consciously be part of an agenda, but inasmuch as a given individual follows the party line of authors who do have that agenda, the critique follows.

I find it fascinating that the extreme skeptics have no problem bullying their way about, but when someone actually stands up for themselves, they are suddenly being persecuted!! (Again, not saying that you personally Ben are bullying, but this kind of thing has gone on, and it has gone on on this forum.)



It's the tired old "fluffy bunny" argument taken to the extreme, with generous amounts of Religious Right martyrdom and One True Faith crusade attitude thrown in for good measure.

Oooook ... so ... now you're calling me an "extreme fluffy bunny" are you? (Or so characterizing my arguments?)

You're arguing with a straw man here, I'm afraid. I am neither fluffy bunny nor am I a martyr nor am I on a "one true faith" crusade. You're trying to peg me but you haven't got me. I'm far more formidable intellectually than any of this. And it seems as if you've taken the "Neo-Pagan" discussion of agenda with such a sense of insult, that you've decided to go tit-for-tat and upped the ante with some labels and accusations of your own.

My apologies to everyone for my part in stirring up this hornet's nest. I hope the people reading this thread, as well as other threads here on MysticWicks, will come away understanding that the extreme positions might be visible but they are hardly representative of our community as a whole. I hope the lesson of tolerance for diversity and even disagreement is clear (even with all the storm and bluster) and that newcomers, even those who know next to nothing and who might make a few mistakes in their first steps on their spiritual path are welcome and encouraged. We all make mistakes and with the blessings of the Goddesses and Gods we will learn from them and become better people.


Now this I do take extreme offense to. You are now trying to frame me as "extreme" as if my positions are somehow some sort of disgrace to the pagan community? Shame on you.

[Carla O'Harris]

Now there you go again, Carla using words like COMPLETELY silencing. By calling names you are attempting to silence dissent, however. It is a tactic known to every schoolyard bully and best outgrown.

Well, let's apply the label first to Hutton, who uses this kind of insinuation all over the place.

"Calling names"? All of this started over the fact that there is a mantra repeated over and over and over again (an accusation thrown at me btw) of "history doesn't matter". It's old.

Ridiculous that because I am passionately standing up for a position (perhaps taboo amongst those who prefer a cool religion) that I am somehow a "bully". Absurd.

And equally absurd to call me a bully because I make differentiations between those who believe this is a 50-year old thing and those who believe that it is far older. I don't tell the 50-year-olders what they can and can't believe ; I do tell them that they cannot claim a monopoly on historical truth, and counter with strong historical arguments. I don't consider myself to be in the same camp as those who are 50-year-olders. That doesn't mean I couldn't blot with them, but they most certainly wouldn't be part of my inner circle.

And if I've put an arrogant, unbalanced tendency claiming monopoly for its positions on the defensive, good. Turnabout is fair play.

Again you are calling people Neo-Pagan and asserting that anyone who disagrees wih you falls in cahoots with Kelly. I disagree with you and I disagree with Kelly too, so now you know that your statement isn't true.

But Kelly was the one who popularized the idea that the history doesn't matter, and he did it for an agenda. People who repeat that are falling in line with a particular kind of discourse. Strangely, they seem to repeat many of his positions.

I explained exactly why I believe that you are an extremist. You believe that you are following the True Religion and know the True History. Everyone who disagrees with your beliefs is labeled by you as a Neo-Pagan.

How wrong you are! People disagree with me all the time. It is only people who disagree with me in ways that fall into the general Neo-Pagan line ("the history doesn't matter!") who I place into the appropriate camp.

You people are really doing your best to paint me up as some kind of fundamentalist extremist, because apparently rational argument is not sufficing to make your points. Ad hominem me up, and I will still persevere in reasoning.




Those who believe that there is only One True Way in any religion are extremist.

Hmm. Maybe you should have a conversation with those who believe this. I am not one of them. I've already stated that I have a great deal of respect for Neo-Paganism, as well as a number of other paths.

You only have a theory about the history of Witchcraft. You believe your theory. It remains a theory.

Yah, except, you see, my theory is backed up by facts, so it remains a highly plausible, evidence-derived theory.

[Ben Gruagach]

yea "Witan" helps to "soften" the pagan issue or burdeon on greek people that are coming from another religion. Widan is the "correct" way of spelling, but Witan is a "childish" (for lack of better word) of saying wicca/wiccan/

Most people in the English speaking Pagan community probably encountered the term "Wittan" and "Witta" from a book by Edain McCoy, called "Witta: An Irish Pagan Tradition."

It was basically her attempt to produce a specifically Irish form of Wicca so she changed the name to something that she thought sounded more Irish.

Some with a more scholarly bent though probably know the term Witan in its historical meaning (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/witan) which is more or less the equivalent of the modern term "assembly" or "meeting" or even "councilperson" -- not quite an occult or necessarily religious term!

[Silver Crow2]

Wicca won't die out.

If Gardner did just make it up, he did a masterful job.

He took the most widespread theistic belief around the world (the concept of masculine god and feminine goddess, whether duotheistic or polytheistic). He came up with some ready made ritual (a very important part of human behavior, and not just in the spiritual sense), that has some loosely based roots in documented old Celtic and Anglo Saxon pre christian and barely christianized traditions.

He made Wicca have "roots" with nature and made nature sacred.

Also, at the time he wrote in the 1950s, it was sorta secret, avant garde, and definitely not the norm. Stuff like that always appeals to people :)

[Ben Gruagach]

Wicca won't die out.

If Gardner did just make it up, he did a masterful job.

He took the most widespread theistic belief around the world (the concept of masculine god and feminine goddess, whether duotheistic or polytheistic). He came up with some ready made ritual (a very important part of human behavior, and not just in the spiritual sense), that has some loosely based roots in documented old Celtic and Anglo Saxon pre christian and barely christianized traditions.

He made Wicca have "roots" with nature and made nature sacred.

Also, at the time he wrote in the 1950s, it was sorta secret, avant garde, and definitely not the norm. Stuff like that always appeals to people :)

People interested in this topic might want to read Chas Clifton's book "Her Hidden Children" which discusses the history of Wicca in the United States.

He has some very interesting things to say about how Wicca came to be considered a "nature religion" in particular.

[RainInanna]

Depends on how you are defining Wicca. I suspect the author of Wicca for the Rest of Us was referring to traditional Wicca when they used the term. Will traditional Wicca die out? I think it has really slowed down in popularity, but having talked to traditionalists I know there are many who are vehemently holding onto it. It might be harder to find, but it's still there.

[Lunacie]

Traditional Wicca was always hard to find. They've never issued mass invitations to join them.

[RainInanna]

Absolutely. And by "harder to find" I mean harder to find then Wicca that is not traditional. I think the author was probably suggesting that eclectic/neo-Wicca has become so popular that eventually it will drown out traditional. I wouldn't go that far.

[Circe3]

I choose other. While I don't think it will die out, I do think it will become less "cool" to be. The people that think wicca or witchcraft is what they see in movies and what they read in books will be less when they try to become it and see that it's a very different thing. This will deter them from wicca and they will return to whatever they were before. Also the ones that become wiccan or witches to I guess rebel, either from parents or more popular religion will hopefully eventually grow up either find that they went to a religion for the wrong reasons and find one that suits them or stay for the right reasons. I don't think it will be as popular as it is now but I do think it's here to stay.

[maeli]

I choose other. While I don't think it will die out, I do think it will become less "cool" to be. The people that think wicca or witchcraft is what they see in movies and what they read in books will be less when they try to become it and see that it's a very different thing. This will deter them from wicca and they will return to whatever they were before. Also the ones that become wiccan or witches to I guess rebel, either from parents or more popular religion will hopefully eventually grow up either find that they went to a religion for the wrong reasons and find one that suits them or stay for the right reasons. I don't think it will be as popular as it is now but I do think it's here to stay.
Exactly what I was going to say. I do on the other hand see pagan religions becoming more the norm and accepted as time goes on.

[magickal_realism]

Wicca is a new(ish) and evolving religion. The drop off of trendiness is just a growing pang as it becomes more mature.

[Kudzu]

I think that the public face of "Wicca" will continue to fade from popular interest. However, I do not believe that Traditional Wicca will die.

[Shaw]

All religions that won't adapt eventually die out. As history has shown. I think Christianity is closer to dieing out than any form of Wicca.

[WhoseLineBabygirl]

i doubt that it will unless everybody in the intire world just stopped being wiccan

[Russ]

I voted yes. Probably should have hit other and leaned to more than likely.

The fluffies are scaring off potential students. Of the four Traditionalist groups I know of. Only one takes in any significant number of new students.

The other three are dieing out because one went way to eccletic an it's already dieing. The other two are of the "THOU ART NOT WORTHY!" Attitude. Thus I doubt they'll be able to replace there numbers as members leave and die out.

This is the big thing for Wicca. Percentage wise it's growing rapidly. In fairness however when you get a coven of six that gets three new members that IS a 50% grow right there. There is also the factor that Wicca has one of the higher turn over rates. I think it's like 2 out 10 or something like that. This counts cradle Wiccans and converts.

I truly believe when Wicca start absorbing everything under the Sun that was it. People will leave to find a faith that is more grounded. They can give purpose and direction. Or truly I should say Neo-Wicca has become an overly PC faith that is scared beyond reason of Dogma. It's literally gone from too much Dogma to far to little.

An I fear when the Neo-Wicca fad dies it'll give a killing blow to the traditionalist groups. Causing them to not be able to replace numbers. Thus death.

But time will tell.

[Stormcat]

I voted no. Even if the visible, eclectic form of Wicca goes the way of the Dodo, which I doubt, those belonging to the various traditions will still practice from the shadows and people will still be drawn to the Mysteries.

[jetpiston]

The Wica are alive and well, and even continue to increase in number, albeit slowly. From what I can tell, most of us prefer it that way.

[David19]

The Wica are alive and well, and even continue to increase in number, albeit slowly. From what I can tell, most of us prefer it that way.

But what version of Wicca - modern day Wicca or traditional (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, etc)? and which one do you prefer to see growing - traditional or modern?.

[jetpiston]

But what version of Wicca - modern day Wicca or traditional (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, etc)?
I suppose I'd have to say traditional, wich is the 'version' I am most familiar with, being a Gardnerian myself.

and which one do you prefer to see growing - traditional or modern?.I would prefer to see people find whatever path fulfills their needs, whether it is Wicca or not, however, it does please me that there seems to be a trend towards an increase in the numbers of people finding their way home and seeking initiation into the Gardnerian path.

As far as 'modern' Wicca, I assume you mean something similar to 'eclectic' Wicca, which, in my experience, has only superficial resemblance to the Wicca I am familiar with. If it grows and that pleases it's adherents, then I am content, though I don't think I would say that I 'prefer' to see one or the other grow for any but selfish reasons.

Jet Piston
Gardnerian 3*

[pkm]

I don't think that it will ever go away because the religion at it core was here before Wicca was even a word.

I am sure that there will be fluffies that will come though on passing fades but the ones who are sincere about the religion will still be here.

I didn't know that Wicca even existed until I was in highschool but I have always been a witch. I didn't need books or videos or anything else to tell me what was right in my heart, still don't but I love the reference I get from them.

As long as people seek out the information it will be there, some people look for a lifetime others look for a week.

[Fairy_Princess]

One can only hope.... (P.S. 50 years is nothing)

[Stormcat]

The Wica are alive and well, and even continue to increase in number, albeit slowly. From what I can tell, most of us prefer it that way.

Indeed, JetPiston, Indeed... and if there ever were a need for the Wica to draw back into the shadows, we are quite capable of doing so.

[Fairy_Princess]

i doubt that it will unless everybody in the intire world just stopped being wiccan

Everyone in the entire world is Wiccan? Does Canada know this?:lol:

[Endless Rain]

I don't think it will. Over time, it'll change, like everything changes. But that's not a bad thing. I guess changes are necessary to keep something alive. Everything changes over time, our society does, our morals do, so does religion.

[Lauren Michele]

I voted no due to the fact that it is one of the fastest growing religions today. :wave:

[Coinin]

I don't think it will. Over time, it'll change, like everything changes. But that's not a bad thing. I guess changes are necessary to keep something alive. Everything changes over time, our society does, our morals do, so does religion.

I dn't think I could have put it any better myself...

[David19]

I voted no due to the fact that it is one of the fastest growing religions today. :wave:

Is it really growing in popularity, though?, as I've read Islam is actually the fastest growing religion in the world (anyone know different?).

[Ben Gruagach]

Is it really growing in popularity, though?, as I've read Islam is actually the fastest growing religion in the world (anyone know different?).

There's an interesting article on claims regarding which religion is the "fastest growing" one at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claims_to_be_the_fastest_growing_religion

As with most statistics it seems this claim has been made by a variety of different people with different results.

[Sorcha2007]

I don't know about everywhere else but in the US Wicca is one of the fastest growing religons in today socity.

[Russ]

I don't know about everywhere else but in the US Wicca is one of the fastest growing religons in today socity.


You know I often wonder about this. Because the say Druidry and Nordic believes are the growing faster than Wicca.

I finally came to the conclusion that it would be more accurate to say Paganism is the fastest growing religion. Since many times you just have Wicca to choose from so must Pagans just check Wicca and leave it at that.


But I can't back that up with anything.

[David19]

You know I often wonder about this. Because the say Druidry and Nordic believes are the growing faster than Wicca.

I finally came to the conclusion that it would be more accurate to say Paganism is the fastest growing religion. Since many times you just have Wicca to choose from so must Pagans just check Wicca and leave it at that.


But I can't back that up with anything.

I've heard Islam is also one of the fasest growing religions in the U.S. which was somewhat surprising to me considering the current climate, but I'm not too sure how true it is (apparantly, Islam is growing in Texas, which is very ironic).

[Russ]

I've heard Islam is also one of the fasest growing religions in the U.S. which was somewhat surprising to me considering the current climate, but I'm not too sure how true it is (apparantly, Islam is growing in Texas, which is very ironic).

An supposedly the fastest growing people in the Nation are Mexican-Americans who are mostly Roman-Catholic...

Man I wish they'd put religion back on the Census so we can see whats going on...


As I understand in the world by 0.04% more than Christianity.

An Paganism is growing most rapidly by percentage or so the critics say; HOWEVER they refuse to answer why that growth is stable...

[Seasaidh]

I don't know if I've posted in here but...

Wicca (as we know it... er, as the many ways we know it) may, I guess, evolve, but I don't think it will necessarily die out... It will most likely be absorbed into the 'majority' religion that follows it.

I've also heard that Wicca and Paganism in general is growing rather rapidly. I think Wicca is first after the Abrahamic religions, Hinduism, and Buddhism... lol. (If I remember correctly from my research paper I did a while ago, I think it's spreading the most in Australia...)

(Soon the whole world will be infected by teh ebil Wicca! _whistle_ )