Will wicca die out?

[David19]

I was on wicca for the rest of us and came to this page (http://wicca.timerift.net/history_real.html), and the author says:

Honestly, on our present course, I expect Wicca to die out within 20 years - the serious practioners will have given up and moved on to other groups, and the Bunnies will no longer find it cool.

Do you think it's true, will wicca die out in 20 years (or more or less), if you're a serious practicioner, are you/have you considered leaving, what's your view on it.

Also, do you think this would affect 'paganism' in anyway, since wicca is (i think) the largest 'pagan' movement, would the others die out too (such as Asatru, Kemetism, Hellenic reconstructionism, etc).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

[semi]

I am not Wiccan and I have never had any interest at all in Wicca, but I will guess "No, it will not die out." If every Wiccan on the planet died right now and all records of Wicca were removed, someone somewhere would eventually subconsciously connect with the Earth and the Goddess in the way particular to Wicca and they'd follow that path. Others would feel a pull to that person and what they were doing. And the religion would be reborn. Possibly under a different name, but it would be back. My opinion.

[Ben Gruagach]

I voted no at least based on the reasons given. If Wiccans are really so shallow about their religion as to abandon it merely because of how others practice it then in my opinion they weren't very solid about Wicca in the first place.

Those who find Wicca meaningful will practice it regardless of whether it's popular or not, regardless whether or not other Wiccans agree with them or not on whatever specific topic we care to bring up for discussion. Wiccans who are solid in their religious practice aren't shattered by examinations of its history or preposterous claims made by those who don't really know what they're talking about.

[Edited to correct grammar mistake.]

[Lunacie]

Sure there have been changes in Wicca and the way it is practiced over the last half century, but the core beliefs of it are still pretty much the same whether you're a traditionalist or an eclectic. It's not dying out now and I don't expect it to.

[Snapdragon]

The answer depends, of course, on what you view Wicca as being. Those who think it is a modern invention by Gerald Gardner will likely take one kind of view; those who see it as a religion with roots in medieval society--or even further back into prehistory--will take another view.

My own view is magical. Wicca has always existed, since people looked up into the sky with awe and perhaps terror at the shining thing above them, felt their part in the movement of animal life, and partook of the life-and-death cycle, alone and in the company of other humans. Wicca does not come from any one person, nor is it a momentary infatuation of media-generated and commercially driven origin. It comes from and returns to the gods; it is the play of Power, the arena of creation and destruction.

In this sense, of course, the specific trappings of Wicca matter very little; people have always felt the Powers, worshipped them, attempted to understand, control, and propitiate them. This will not change until and unless humanity loses its sense of the sacred.

[Chibi-Fallon]

It may, but I believe that it will probably always be around but maybe not always by that name.

[Akhkharu Asgard]

The answer depends, of course, on what you view Wicca as being. Those who think it is a modern invention by Gerald Gardner will likely take one kind of view; those who see it as a religion with roots in medieval society--or even further back into prehistory--will take another view.

My own view is magical. Wicca has always existed, since people looked up into the sky with awe and perhaps terror at the shining thing above them, felt their part in the movement of animal life, and partook of the life-and-death cycle, alone and in the company of other humans. Wicca does not come from any one person, nor is it a momentary infatuation of media-generated and commercially driven origin. It comes from and returns to the gods; it is the play of Power, the arena of creation and destruction.

In this sense, of course, the specific trappings of Wicca matter very little; people have always felt the Powers, worshipped them, attempted to understand, control, and propitiate them. This will not change until and unless humanity loses its sense of the sacred.

It sounds like you are talking about religion in general. Not necessarily "Wicca."

[Brandon Bee]

It might. I think people will still believe in the basic concepts of Wicca anyways if it dies out.

[Rhisiart]

I dont think so, though I hope Wicca changes some. I think it may get a better foothold around the world because of all the wrongs done in other religions name and/or the unfulfillment many feel being a part of those religions. Will be a major world religion? Not anytime soon I dont think, simply because of the hold the others have right now, but I think it will grow more and may look more acceptable to those that are accepting and tolerant of others ideas and beliefs. I dont think I'll see a Pagan Church in my town anytime in the next 100 yrs though...

Mostly my view is on Paganism in total and not just Wicca.

[Lunacie]

I dont think so, though I hope Wicca changes some. I think it may get a better foothold around the world because of all the wrongs done in other religions name and/or the unfulfillment many feel being a part of those religions. Will be a major world religion? Not anytime soon I dont think, simply because of the hold the others have right now, but I think it will grow more and may look more acceptable to those that are accepting and tolerant of others ideas and beliefs. I dont think I'll see a Pagan Church in my town anytime in the next 100 yrs though...

Mostly my view is on Paganism in total and not just Wicca.

What changes are you hoping to see in Wicca?

Wiccans don't build churches eh? We've had a Pagan group in our town called WitchTemple for about a dozen years, but they didn't build a Pagan Church, they just met at the UU church. Unfortunately they encountered some problems last year when one of the leaders decided to screw one of the members who wasn't his wife - behind said wife's back. They are trying to get reestablished and some of the members are still teaching classes through a new Pagan shop.

[OpenHands]

I don't expect any religion to last forever. Wicca could last 20 or 2,000 years, but I imagine it will eventually go the way of the dodo.

[Meimi]

Religions don't exactly "die out", now do they? I mean, our current "mainstream" religions, so to speak, aren't any new ideas... It's borrowed and passed down. And as I'm sure we all know, so many other religions have incorporated Pagan beliefs without really any creditting to it and such... so... meh, religions don't die. They just...morph o_O

[Rhisiart]

What changes are you hoping to see in Wicca?

Wiccans don't build churches eh? We've had a Pagan group in our town called WitchTemple for about a dozen years, but they didn't build a Pagan Church, they just met at the UU church. Unfortunately they encountered some problems last year when one of the leaders decided to screw one of the members who wasn't his wife - behind said wife's back. They are trying to get reestablished and some of the members are still teaching classes through a new Pagan shop.

Heh dont get me started about Wicca..lol..kidding, Id just tlike to see more community, ya know? Most of the fighting, bickering and arguing I see and hear are between Wiccans or involve a Wiccan...Im not by the way...So Id like that to change...man I just know Im gonna hear somethin about this...

As for the Church, yes they meet at UU, up in Denver and Colordo Springs here in Colorado, but I live in a VERY Christian community in a small town, well 6000 or so, and though we have some 15 churches, ALL DIFFERENT, there are no Temples or Mosques here and Id bet there never will be.

I think the people here would gather up pitchforks and torches if I rented out a hall, started doing sabbats and esbats, drum circles, sigul classes and whatnot. Id have to buy the place because Id doubt anyone here would rent after they found out it was a PAGAN CHURCH....but Id bet Id get 20 or more people to show up!

[Elderbush]

I am very hopeful that Wicca will not die out although I certainly think that it will go out of fashion, ie lose it's coolness factor. A number of traditions have proven to have "legs" and will continue, some traditions will disappear. If it does die out it will be because it cannot change in oder to better serve the followers.

[Elderbush]

Religions don't exactly "die out", now do they? I mean, our current "mainstream" religions, so to speak, aren't any new ideas... It's borrowed and passed down. And as I'm sure we all know, so many other religions have incorporated Pagan beliefs without really any creditting to it and such... so... meh, religions don't die. They just...morph o_O

Religions do die out. A religion is a certain set of ideas. Just because one of those ideas is incorporated into another religion, that does not mean the first religion is alive and well.

[Scarletswalk]

I voted "other."

Every religion/path has its own ebb and flow. Paganism is popular, and when it gets too popular, it will die down a bit. It's a circle that will go on and on.

[Crimson Mage]

I guess I'm in the minority, because I believe it will die out. But it will die for reasons different than one might expect. There is a TON of individualism in this world these days - just look at the group here and all the different things represented. That variety is exactly why Wicca will die (harsh word - fade away I think is more appropriate). People tend to begin their travels thru Paganism with Wicca, more often than not because of its fame. After a while, they begin to learn there are so many more paths than just Wicca -- in fact, they learn you can become a solitary practioner and practice on your own, developing your own path. Even with that, you dont lose the "social" aspects of things like ritual or group gatherings. (Ever heard of Wiccan Pride Day - not me, its Pagan Pride Day, and Pagans of all paths are welcomed). One of the basic tenets of the Pagan Path is that there is no heirarchy - there is only self, and each of us as individuals decide our own Path. I truly think you will see that Paganism as a whole becomes primarily a large loose-knit group of ecletics with smaller groups of covens where we are able to gather a group that agrees in principle to practice their faith in a common setting and under common rules. Most of us came to Paganism through Wicca, and it deserves credit for that - but at the same time the attraction is the fact it can be individualized to suit one's needs and as it becomes evident to the "outside world" that being Pagan does not mean you must be Wiccan youll see more and more Pagans, and less and less Wiccans. It will never totally die mind you, but there will come a time where Pagan is the primary term used as opposed to Wiccan.

[Lunacie]

off-topic response here...


<snip>
I think the people here would gather up pitchforks and torches if I rented out a hall, started doing sabbats and esbats, drum circles, sigul classes and whatnot. Id have to buy the place because Id doubt anyone here would rent after they found out it was a PAGAN CHURCH....but Id bet Id get 20 or more people to show up!

Funny you should mention drum circles, our local drum circles were started by a couple of guys who play with a band for church worship every Sunday. :lol: One was rather shocked to learn that many people consider drum circles to be *gasp* Pagan.

[Meimi]

I didn't quite mean that the original religion was "alive and well", they fade, but the basis of certain religions continue to live through others.

[Rhisiart]

off-topic response here...



Funny you should mention drum circles, our local drum circles were started by a couple of guys who play with a band for church worship every Sunday. :lol: One was rather shocked to learn that many people consider drum circles to be *gasp* Pagan.

Yea the UU up in Denver always has them and everyone goes but they dont do much of anything else. I offered to do a Sigul class but was told they didnt have the room...thers like a hundred!!!

I know UU is very tolerant and open, and Iknow that in many places the do Solstice rituals and skits and cooking class and Id love to have something like that ALL the time down here wher I live...or just anywhere.

[SquareC]

I don't believe that Wicca will die out. There are too many Trads and Solitairies for the religion to just "fade away" or whatever. If you are referring to strictly Gardenerian Wicca, that could possibly fall by the wayside. But Wicca is practiced in very many ways. A great many of us exist who are not members of covens or circles. I've been Wiccan for almost 20 years, and I don't see myself changing my mind now!

[Little Billy]

I was on wicca for the rest of us and came to this page (http://wicca.timerift.net/history_real.html), and the author says:



Do you think it's true, will wicca die out in 20 years (or more or less), if you're a serious practicioner, are you/have you considered leaving, what's your view on it.

Also, do you think this would affect 'paganism' in anyway, since wicca is (i think) the largest 'pagan' movement, would the others die out too (such as Asatru, Kemetism, Hellenic reconstructionism, etc).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?


I think it's a very real danger...for the very reason that makes me LIKE Wiccans.

No cohesion. Prevents dogma. Dogma is the curse of religion...but also the only thing that holds it together.

[bbnflpn]

no it wont, why, because i have a feeling that the tides of religon are changing and swinging back torward goddess worship in some form. all this stuff we are seeing right now with the chrisitans vieing for more rights is a big sign, they feel they are loosing a hold on socioty as a whole and that is why they are working so hard to get more recognition.

[RhiannynWildseed]

I know UU is very tolerant and open, and Iknow that in many places the do Solstice rituals and skits and cooking class and Id love to have something like that ALL the time down here wher I live...or just anywhere.

They all aren't so tolerant and open. The local one here has shown itself to be rather intolerant of ANYONE spiritually inclined. A friend was asked to construct a...a...well, without getting to the end of the story too fast, I'll have to call it a thing for which to hold their chalice and their candle. He made the mistake of calling it an "altar" and a bunch of the members went off on him.

[PeTAKid]

I don't think it will die out, I personally think it's just evolving. I really don't know what it will evolve into though. It might branch off in different directions where all the monotheists go one way, the dualtheists go the other, and the polytheists go on in an entirely different direction. It's really hard to say where it will go..... I do have to say I don't think it will ever be unified because there is too much theory going in too many different directions.

I voted other :)

[Tigerlily]

I don't think Wicca will die out. I believe it will change and probably will become more "mainstream".

[NightShade]

I think Wicca will have to reform in some way. Right now Wicca appears, to the outsider, to be a trendy fad for teenagers to use to "get back" at parents. (Notice, I said it appears to be this way to the outsider). I think all of the different Sects are going to have to become a bit more solid for the public. As it is right now, Paganism isn't taken very seriously by people of other religions. And one of the main reasons I am told that it isn't taken seriously is because it doesn't appear to be solid. Of course, we have really come a long way since the first Pagans have come out of the closet, but most outsiders do not see this.

Personally, I think it's time we start publishing something that shows our most recent history. As it is right now, it's scattered amongst several different books and isn't a collective work at all. Maybe that's why it appears we are not as solid as other religions?

As far as Pagan Churches, we have a few in my area. I live in Northern KY, but right across the river in Cincinnati, Ohio we have a few scattered about UC. But, I don't expect to see anything like that in N. KY. as most people here are overly superstitious about Pagans, from a lack of any real knowledge of what we are about.

I hope to see all paths finally becoming solid in the eye of the public so that maybe we can be taken more seriously about our own beliefs.

[Rhisiart]

They all aren't so tolerant and open. The local one here has shown itself to be rather intolerant of ANYONE spiritually inclined. A friend was asked to construct a...a...well, without getting to the end of the story too fast, I'll have to call it a thing for which to hold their chalice and their candle. He made the mistake of calling it an "altar" and a bunch of the members went off on him.

Yea I know what you mean. Ive seen some that tolerate the more mainstream religions but still have issues with the PAGAN gods. UU is still mostly about ONE god but its how you wanna believe in "him". I use to go when I was in recovery and it was cool then but I still felt the intolerance towards some of the other beliefs. I know some arent like that but like Rhiannyn said, some are.

[MysticWitch]

Wicca won't die out. There will always be someone who practices. _wedgie_

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

I was on wicca for the rest of us and came to this page (http://wicca.timerift.net/history_real.html), and the author says:



Do you think it's true, will wicca die out in 20 years (or more or less), if you're a serious practicioner, are you/have you considered leaving, what's your view on it.

Also, do you think this would affect 'paganism' in anyway, since wicca is (i think) the largest 'pagan' movement, would the others die out too (such as Asatru, Kemetism, Hellenic reconstructionism, etc).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

No, it won't. but it WILL change & grow like every religion before it as its practitioners develope new understandings of its tenant's/beleifs/texts/etc.

[Dustypuppy]

No, i dont believe that it will die out, the personal and involvement and development plus contact with the natural world and caring for the environment is what i believe to be central to religious thought in this new millenium x

[Phoenix Element]

No, it won't die out. If it does dissolve in time, it'll be in a few decades. For one thing, Ideas and beliefs don't just poof away. They're more likely to morph and evolve in to other things. So in 50 years, who knows? But I'm willing to bet that Wicca will exist in some shape or form even then.

In 20 years, it may be less of a fad than it is now...but it'll be far from "dead."

[Astara Seague]

it hasnt yet
it may have to be descret but I feel it will always be there

[mtpathy]

The majority of pagan beliefs are so spread out,that even practitioners
of the same system's can't agree upon more then the very basic of practices.
In order for paganism to prosper,there's going to have to be some concious
orginization beyond going to cUUps meetings every weekend.
All of the Circles/Covens within the different areas are going to have to come
out in the public's eye,and start giving into the community through various
services, And in turn shed this skin of being a belief for "rebelling teenagers,
and drug users,devil worshippers".
The pagans that are coming out as individuals, within there community aren't
going to get anything but problems. But if the Circles and Covens within the
various communities come out together, and with organization.
there wouldn't be a one individual to point a finger at and blame,they
"the community" would instead have to point a finger at a group of people
which would give the pagan community a huge oppertunity to state our
beliefs and practices in a open forum to all, And show that we are a
productive part of the community.
But till that happens you risk you'r life being that individual that comes out
of the broom closet,it'll take that attention off of me.

[Ptah]

I was on wicca for the rest of us and came to this page (http://wicca.timerift.net/history_real.html), and the author says:



Do you think it's true, will wicca die out in 20 years (or more or less), if you're a serious practicioner, are you/have you considered leaving, what's your view on it.

Also, do you think this would affect 'paganism' in anyway, since wicca is (i think) the largest 'pagan' movement, would the others die out too (such as Asatru, Kemetism, Hellenic reconstructionism, etc).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

I think it pretty much already has. The name won't die and people dancing in circles and calling it Wicca will be around for a while. However, the actual practice takes too much discipline for today's instant gratification, microwave society. I wonder how many who voted "it won't die" are presently or have ever been involved in a Wiccan coven.

[Vincent Verthaine]

It is better for wicca to die out,them become an acceptable,mainstream religion,filled with monolithic dogmas,status seeking practicioners going to the wiccan temple just to show off their latest pagan fashions,inquisitions of heretics who don't worship the God and Goddess the "proper way",shameless merchandizing of "pagan jewelry,altar paraphanalia,tarot readings,etc",High Priest/Priestesses only interested in power and wealth,magic practicioners who think they supreme spellcasters at age 16...

Oops, too late.

[DebLipp]

One of the reasons I have always stuck to a Traditional path is that I believe it is possible for Eclectic Wicca to die out, but I believe that Traditionalism (Gardnerian, Alexandrian, Mohsian, etc.) will survive. We pass intact Traditions yet allow for individual autonomy. We respect established ritual enough to teach it and pass it down, and we respect individual expression enough so that people need not feel stifled.

I don't trust that what I do as an individual will necesarily last, and the idea of something lasting matters to me. So I am a part of a Tradition and I trust that it will last.

[Myrr]

Traditional Wicca will live on, as seen on TV Wicca will die out, probably sooner than later.

[Little Billy]

No, it won't. but it WILL change & grow like every religion before it as its practitioners develope new understandings of its tenant's/beleifs/texts/etc.

Heh. More likely, it will become a haircut and a T-shirt.

[Greyharp]

Wicca is here to stay. It's lasted 50 years, I think if it was going to fizzle out, it would've done so by now. Every big religion started off small. Here in Australia, Wicca and paganism in general were the fastest growing religions of the last two census held. The fad side of it will pass, but Wicca is established.

[Rhisiart]

Wicca is here to stay. It's lasted 50 years, I think if it was going to fizzle out, it would've done so by now. Every big religion started off small. Here in Australia, Wicca and paganism in general were the fastest growing religions of the last two census held. The fad side of it will pass, but Wicca is established.

Well, it took Christianity over 300 yrs to really MAKE IT! What Wicca needs is an Emperor with a bossy mother...and a dead prophet set to return any day now...yup thatll do it...

[juliaki]

All religions die out. Religions are human-made creations. Eventually humanity will die out, thus taking all religions with it. Whether Wicca survives until the end of humanity or not, who knows. I'm willing to bet that aside from a very small sect of Traditionalists that will carry the lines along, what Wicca is 50 years from now will not look anything like even the "standard" Neo-Wicca that most people seem to follow today. The name will live on longer than the religion that it describes.

[Meabh23]

Wicca won't die out. It is growing much too fast, both in terms of numbers of people and in terms of how to organize communities, etc.

I believe the writer of the article on WFTRU was simply making the point that if people water it down, there is a good chance of it dying.

I don't think it will get watered down. There are too many serious practitioners who have experience around who you may never run into or hear of. Just because of all the fluffy books being published along with all the fluffy websites, doesn't mean Wicca will die out.

It is an interesting topic to discuss though.

[thundersdisciple]

I think Wicca is going through tough times, but just as Christians were once fed to lions for their belifes we shall flourish! we will grow and educate!
I know this may not sound like alot but as we speak I am writing/planning two books aimed at non-wiccan audiences to educate them on our true thoughts and intentions!
one is for adults to show them we are not evil devil worshipers and the other is for kids to help the young learn early about our peaceful path

[Infinite Grey]

I think it'll die out, and fizzle. Wicca has no solid core, every other religion of long lividly has core belief which is found in all its denominations.

[Lunacie]

I think it'll die out, and fizzle. Wicca has no solid core, every other religion of long lividly has core belief which is found in all its denominations.

I believe Wicca does have a solid core. Unfortunately there are a number of people who are not looking for that core and accept the Wicca-lite literature that's been published as being Wicca. Those people may or may not continue to call themselves Wiccan and follow whatever path they call Wicca, but that has very little indeed to do with what Wicca always has been and will continue to be (IMO).

[Infinite Grey]

I believe Wicca does have a solid core. Unfortunately there are a number of people who are not looking for that core and accept the Wicca-lite literature that's been published as being Wicca. Those people may or may not continue to call themselves Wiccan and follow whatever path they call Wicca, but that has very little indeed to do with what Wicca always has been and will continue to be (IMO).



From what I've heard of Wicca's origins (Collectively secondhand) there isn't really a stable foundation, beside being a Nature orientated religion. Even if there is a solid core belief, I haven't seen many wiccans agreeing on it, or even having one. Look at any of the successful religions, you point out what their core belief is, that keeps the denominations under the title of the religion.

I'm going to be ironic and refer to a biblical parable; The house build on sand and the house built on rock... which will stand the tests of time?

[Lunacie]

In my experience Wiccans do agree on at least half a dozen core concepts. However, if you only talk to those who have only read and studied the Wicca-lite literature they don't have any idea that there even are any core concepts. But if you present those core concepts to them, they say, "OH yes, I agree with those."

How many core beliefs does it take to make a religion valid, to enable it to stand the "test of time"? Don't most of the larger religions have only one or two core beliefs?

The major belief of any religion is the belief in a particular diety. In Wicca one of the core beliefs is that there are many gods and that those gods are both male and female, and that the reason for that is for fertility and the continuation of life. How much more do you need?

All religions have debates about how to practice the religion, such as the Christians agreeing that baptism is necessary but not agreeing on how that should be done. Do all Wiccans everywhere really have to agree on something like The Rede? There is a core belief that we should all be accountable and responsible for our own actions and our own choices.

So there is one core belief and one core practice. And believe me, there are other commonly held or "core" beliefs and practices.

[Elderbush]

I disagree, Infinate Grey. If you study the different denominations of Christianity you will find that they disagree on many things and even who falls under the Christian umbrella. As do Wiccans disagree. The core beliefs in Wicca are there but not all traditions that are Wiccan agree on those core beliefs - again like Chrisitanity.

The big difference that is touted is that there is no central authority, but wait! Not so big after all. Traditions and covens have a central authority just like the Presbyterrians do. Traditions will falter and fail when they no longer serve the needs of their members and cannot attract new membership, just like like Christian denominations do. The ones that survive will work for people and change as the needs of the membership change.

As for the solitaries, there are an awful lot of unchurched Christians, too. Many stay that way all their lives. It must work for them.

[Infinite Grey]

In my experience Wiccans do agree on at least half a dozen core concepts. However, if you only talk to those who have only read and studied the Wicca-lite literature they don't have any idea that there even are any core concepts. But if you present those core concepts to them, they say, "OH yes, I agree with those."

How many core beliefs does it take to make a religion valid, to enable it to stand the "test of time"? Don't most of the larger religions have only one or two core beliefs?

The major belief of any religion is the belief in a particular diety. In Wicca one of the core beliefs is that there are many gods and that those gods are both male and female, and that the reason for that is for fertility and the continuation of life. How much more do you need?

All religions have debates about how to practice the religion, such as the Christians agreeing that baptism is necessary but not agreeing on how that should be done. Do all Wiccans everywhere really have to agree on something like The Rede? There is a core belief that we should all be accountable and responsible for our own actions and our own choices.

So there is one core belief and one core practice. And believe me, there are other commonly held or "core" beliefs and practices.

just my opinion -shrugs- I can see this debate heating up, :idea: so contrary to my normal nature I'll leave it be

[Elderbush]

Oh, don't leave the debate. Neither Lunacie or I mind if you disagree, plenty do. :)

[Lunacie]

I think we have had different experiences of Wicca or Wiccans. I think it's interesting to discuss those differences and give others a chance to see this question from different perspectives. So please don't walk away just because we don't agree.

[Infinite Grey]

Oh, don't leave the debate. Neither Lunacie or I mind if you disagree, plenty do. :)

LoL and plenty get all bent out of shape when I go after something, it's not necessarily you two I'm talking about either 8O

[Lunacie]

Oh, don't leave the debate. Neither Lunacie or I mind if you disagree, plenty do. :)

I enjoy hearing from people who disagree with me. It gives me a chance to think about my own opinions and the reason I hold them. Sometimes I find myself changing an opinion, but sometimes I don't. And even when I don't change my opinion, I often learn something new and add that to the reasons that I hold the opinion.

However, I don't like circular arguments, or ones that resemble a tennis match where each person just keeps saying the same thing in the same way as if that proves they are right.

[Kalika]

No, I don't think it will.

It may seem like a "fad" to a lot of people right now, but I also think that there are those serious practitioners who will keep traditions alive and pass them on to the next generation.

As with just about any religion. :p

[Meabh23]

For those of you who see no "central" or "solid" core in Wicca, I would like to ask you which Pagan tradition or religion does have one? The Druids argue among themselves. So do other Pagan groups. Perhaps what is going on here is that Wicca, like other Neopagan religions, is decentralized. There are many strong organizations that are Wiccan and have brought many covens and groups together. The idea of a decentralized religion is actually successful. It is actually one of Wicca's strengths.

The downside is that there is a lot of room for people to get flaky and such. The fluffy bunnies are an example. (Wicca-lite.) This is actually a phenomenon that is rife in other religions as well, including the large and centralized institutional religions. What Wicca's particular problem is is that there are people who are confused and who think that Wicca is whatever they want it to be because they read so-and-so write in a book that that is what Wicca is.

As people have pointed out, there are some core beliefs in Wicca that can be seen expressed in various Wiccan trads and groups. All religions have these variations around core beliefs. Just because there are a lot of confused people out there who are attempting to define Wicca as anything they wish it to be, doesn't detract at all from Wicca itself. It just makes those of us Wiccans look bad in terms of image.

Decentralization and confused people who don't know how to live with basic definitions will not make Wicca die out.

[Lunacie]

I know there are a number of Wiccans (particularly traditionalists) who feel the fluff-bunnies give us all a bad name. I don’t feel that way.

I don't look confused or fluffy just because someone else looks confused or fluffy. Anyone who makes a judgment about me based on what someone else does or says is not using good judgment. Anyone who makes a judgment about an entire group of people based on those who are doing it because it's trendy is not using good judgment. The more information we have about any thing (religion included) the better the judgment we will be able to make about that thing.

Some of the fluffs may choose not to delve any deeper into Wicca because they don't like rules and authority and having to agree about definitions. But I think most of them have just gotten poor information. With good information they would either choose to delve deeper into Wicca, or they would decide that Wicca isn't right for them after all. There are thousands of similar paths that are simply called Pagan and one of those might be a better fit.

Yeah, there will still be those who say “I can do whatever I want and call it whatever I want,” but do they really have any credibility as representatives of Wicca? I don’t think so.

[Nantonos]

I think it'll die out, and fizzle. Wicca has no solid core, every other religion of long lividly has core belief which is found in all its denominations.

Just out of interest, what central core beliefs has Christianity had among all its followers at all time periods?

Just because the central intersection on the Venn diagram is the null set doesn't mean there isn't plenty of overlap elsewhere.

[Lady Aeris]

I dont know if wicca will die out, i dont think it will, though if it does something along the same lines will be born- witchcraft will not die out and neither will general paganism... I guess its hard to tell. I hope it doesnt, that would be quite a shame to put something so beautiful to rest- ever. Then again, what religion doesnt die out? Some have longer runs than others, i'll admitt, but even the oldest religions have died out... honestly, i think the only way wicca would die out would be if the entire human race lost touch with nature, with their own spirits, with everything- basically becoming robots- and i dont think there's much chance of that happening.... soon anyways. damn...now im worried. *laughs*

[Aquarian_Moon]

I think if you want to call yourself Wiccan, Christian, Budhist, whatever... u should be allowed to. Others might not agree with you, but it's what you believe you are. Your set of core beliefs is not necessarily somebody elses set of core beliefs, and every Christian is different, the same as every Wiccan is different. And considering I sometimes call myself Wiccan, even though I'm far more a blend of New Age/Pagan, I don't think Wicca will ever die out :)

[Lunacie]

I agree with that - up to a point. Trouble is, I have a migraine and can't think how to express where I begin to disagree. I'll be back ...

[LostSheep]

Maybe not having a central set of core beliefs isn't a disadvantage, as it avoids the situations of civil war where both sides hold on to the central set of beliefs and insist that theirs is the only true way, they're the guardians of the sacred flame, and the other groups and factions are heretics. By having a decentralised belief system maybe, just maybe, there's more chance of agreeing to disagree?

just a thought, please don't bite me.

_inabox_

[Elderbush]

What? We don't have that already?:)

[Narkath]

A lot of good stuff here, though I tend to agree with the points made in the more negative posts—those which proclaim the death of Wicca. I don't think it will die out completely, personally, as those who belong traditions will continue to do so. But it may for Wicca, as it is today, for a lot of the solitary and newly formed traditions, with it's fads and bad attitude toward fundamentals or core beliefs. Yes there is a core Wicca, or at least there should be. And that's part of the problem: Very few of the newer practitioners are willing to accept what was set down originally as Wicca (Gardner's Originals), or for that matter, come together, on their own or with the trads, and decide on an idea of what these core beliefs or practices are.

The closer one gets to Gardnerian, the more of the core beliefs or systems are apparent. There were those that were based on this tradition, and then those that were based on them in turn. It's like every system changes just a little something, and then the next lot think, “well, I'm basing my tradition on the 3345th incarnation of The Flying Dragon Tradition of the Lion Goddess, which is sort of loosely related to something that kind of resembles Gardnerian, so I guess what I do is Wicca.” ...until it's changed into something still pagan, but no longer Wiccan. The religion should evolve, yes, even incorporate more fundamentals, but never remove that which made it what it was. It doesn't matter if it is related to any Gardner inspired tradition or not, only that it adheres to some of the few things that defined it originally as a distinctly different pagan religion.

I started typing out what I consider fundamentals, but this would take time, and I'm lazy. I would just like to say, here, that Wicca, like was said in the link, used to have a undeniably European feel to it. The Lord and Lady were seen, so far as I'm aware, and near the top of the deity tree, as the crescent one/triple goddess and the horned one, regardless of their names on that level of the tree. The main images would vary from tradition to tradition, AFAIK, but this remained consistent. What I see these days is more like a deity soup, which is fine, IMO, at lower levels, when working with specific characteristics of the gods, but not so much when acknowledging the full archetypal duality.

But Christianity does on the whole, have a certain set of beliefs which define it as a separate and unique religion. A singular all-other-gods-are-false god, Jesus as a demi-god, and that he died for our sins. That's it as far as I know. There is less agreement from there on, IMO.

Funny how this topic crops up in the middle of my own (now sort of sorted out) semi-dilemma. I saw it just before I posted my topic the other day.

NB: I may have skipped a page or two. I'm not sure. I was reading and then suddenly I'm on page 7. *shrug*

[Lunacie]

OFF TOPIC: For those who don't know this, you can choose how many posts will show up on each page (for me this thread is only 2 pages long).

Left side of bar at top of screen - click on User CP (control panel)
Left side of next screen - scroll down and click on Edit Options
Scroll down to Thread Display Options and choose 5, 10, 20, 30 or 40 posts per page. I don't even remember what the default setting is, probably 5 per page. I chose 40 posts per page.

[Elderbush]

The thing is Narkath, (and I'm not really argueing for Wicca per se) is that if you look at any religion it will have changed considerably over time and in many cases gets very far from what it was the religions founder had in mind. Christianity is a case in point. The Romans "romanized" it so much that it looked little like what it did before.

Cultures change - you say Wicca is getting away from it's Western European roots? Well, if it is being practiced in America or Australia, why shouldn't it? Physically and culturally that is far from Europe. If the religion cannot change, cannot adapt to other cultures and localities then it will stay a minor little religion tied to locality.

To my way of thinking a vibrant religion is one that is changing, that has all the little sects that suit different people. Humans are not a "One Size Fits All" people and unless we do only want one kind of person to be Wiccan we are going to have to accept that Wicca can be altered a bit to suit. Sure, there will be groups or solitaries who have altered Wicca so much that it isn't considered to be Wicca anymore, but most living religions have groups like that, too.

Right now, Wicca is the Wild West of religion. I think that is a good thing.

[Meabh23]

I think if you want to call yourself Wiccan, Christian, Budhist, whatever... u should be allowed to. Others might not agree with you, but it's what you believe you are. Your set of core beliefs is not necessarily somebody elses set of core beliefs, and every Christian is different, the same as every Wiccan is different. And considering I sometimes call myself Wiccan, even though I'm far more a blend of New Age/Pagan, I don't think Wicca will ever die out :)

Here you must concede that this idea can lead to all sorts of problems. For instance, you can' just declare yourself a Buddhist unless you at least agree with it's basic core beliefs (life can be unsatisfactory, our clinging to desires makes us not want to see this so we cling harder to our desires, there is a way out of it, and the Buddhist path incorporates a way out, etc). With Christianity, I thought it was about salvation through accepting Jesus' sacrifice. Other religions have core beliefs too. Without them, it is hard to say that a person really practices the religion, as opposed to just dabbling.

Dabbling is fine. Just don't be so quick to claim a religion as yours unless you are willing to accept its beliefs. Otherwise just say you are influenced by it.

[Nantonos]

With Christianity, I thought it was about salvation through accepting Jesus' sacrifice.

That was my point about the null set earlier. There have been Christian schools of thought that denied the divinity of Christ and saw Jesus as an examplar, in a 'we can all become the son of god' way. Once you look at some of the original writings,they can be wildly divergent. Sometimes a core is just a combination of coercion and good PR.

[juliaki]

When all humans die out (and eventually we will....we're finite beings in an infinite universe), who will continue to practice Wicca?

[Ben Gruagach]

When all humans die out (and eventually we will....we're finite beings in an infinite universe), who will continue to practice Wicca?

Why, cats of course!

[Elderbush]

My vote is for cockroaches. :)

[juliaki]

My vote is for cockroaches. :)


*snicker* So eventually Wicca will evolve into a religion for the cockroaches of the world? There's such a good tagline in there somewhere....

[Hazel BlueMoon]

Only because aren't the present day Wiccans teaching their children the ways of the Earth? That's like saying another religion will as well die out. I mean, of course never say never.
Blessed Be.

[Aquarian_Moon]

Here you must concede that this idea can lead to all sorts of problems. For instance, you can' just declare yourself a Buddhist unless you at least agree with it's basic core beliefs (life can be unsatisfactory, our clinging to desires makes us not want to see this so we cling harder to our desires, there is a way out of it, and the Buddhist path incorporates a way out, etc). With Christianity, I thought it was about salvation through accepting Jesus' sacrifice. Other religions have core beliefs too. Without them, it is hard to say that a person really practices the religion, as opposed to just dabbling.

Dabbling is fine. Just don't be so quick to claim a religion as yours unless you are willing to accept its beliefs. Otherwise just say you are influenced by it. Oh yeah... I mean, i'm guessing it's highly unlikely you're going to proclaim yourself Chrisitan if you don't believe in Jesus (for example), but I see your point with the core beliefs. i knew i forgot something when trying to express my thoughts. :p

[Meabh23]

Oh yeah... I mean, i'm guessing it's highly unlikely you're going to proclaim yourself Chrisitan if you don't believe in Jesus (for example), but I see your point with the core beliefs. i knew i forgot something when trying to express my thoughts. :p

It's understood. That's why we are here, to help polish each other.

[WokeUpDead]

Of course it will. Everything does.

[flipfish]

I'm not sure, but it doesn't seem to me that wicca will die just just because the religion is so vague in many aspects. I'm sorry if this doesn't make sense, it's hard for me to explain.

[SSanf]

Well, there are three generations of Wiccans in my family so I think we are hanging in there, at least.

[DracoJesi]

no, i wont, at least not as long as time around , it might spilt into many different things i suppose but the traditions and customs will never die out, at least I dont think it will

[SquareC]

I think it pretty much already has. The name won't die and people dancing in circles and calling it Wicca will be around for a while. However, the actual practice takes too much discipline for today's instant gratification, microwave society. I wonder how many who voted "it won't die" are presently or have ever been involved in a Wiccan coven.

I spent 2 years in a coven. I've spent 18 years as a solitary. That is part of why I said what I said:

I don't believe that Wicca will die out. There are too many Trads and Solitairies for the religion to just "fade away" or whatever. If you are referring to strictly Gardenerian Wicca, that could possibly fall by the wayside. But Wicca is practiced in very many ways. A great many of us exist who are not members of covens or circles. I've been Wiccan for almost 20 years, and I don't see myself changing my mind now!

The strict practice as set out by Gardener could fade away. Wicca has grown and evolved too much in other ways and directions for it to just go away though!

[Narkath]

I don't mean to push an old point, but it is because of it's "evolution" that it might. What will survive, besides the hard core trads, is the label, because each incarnation will slightly resemble its originator, and the practitioners will have no reason to call it anything different. The last incarnation of the religion, however, will probably not resemble the first practice very much. What we are seeing on the net today is not a problem with Wicca but with it's practitioners.

There won't be this mass extinction of Wicca, or a dying out of the practice, as many of you probably see it, but an inevitable disinterest and adaption of the main form.

I predict it to eventually resemble something of an Earth (and I use that word very loosely) based philosophy. Like a malleable construct into which other current New Age trends and buzzwords fit.

[dr_zeus440]

something will continue. hell, something has continued. whether the former will be wicca, or whether the latter is wicca, who can say with any authority?

in much the same way that pre-christian folk practices arent dead, in the same way that christianity in all of its various gaudy forms isnt dead, in the same way that gardnerian wicca is not dead, that is the way that wicca will continue. it wont be the same. its possible that next week we'll all be worshipping a pork chop (stranger things have happened, i point you in the direction of the cantiga 'non sofre santa maria'). but, the practices and beliefs of a religion invariably (read: usually) resemble, whether through appropriation or by opposition, the religious context of their 'birth'. look at wicca.

so it will continue. for better or worse. maybe.

[RedRaven]

I selected "Other" because I feel that this is a yes and no answer. Yes, Wicca will die off if things keep going as they are where the majority of people are the "eclectic solitary wiccan" type. If this style if wicca continues to be the norm then the tradition based inititory wicca will probably die off, in my opinion of course. however, Wicca may not die off because its changed so much in the past 10 years that ive been practicing that maybe the traditional group has run its course and maybe Wicca has just become too big and popular where the traditional form doesnt fit anymore. Besides, everyone and their grandma can call themselves "Wiccan" now. Quite honestly the word is losing its meaning in my opinion. So I guess so long as well all start to say that "Wicca" is the new term for "Paganism" then it wont ever die off lol

RR

[RainInanna]

I disagree that the serious practitioners will stop being Wiccan, having heard enough of them say as much. "Just because someone else uses the term incorrectly", said one, "doesn't mean I'm going to stop using it!". Trad Wiccan belief doesn't seem that fragile on the whole. One's faith in gods does not end because of the way others use a word.

More likely, I think, that those who aren't serious will eventually get bored of it and move on leaving Wicca to mean what it originally did.

[Crystal_Raye]

Hopefully it will die out soon amoung the fluffies.

[Glanecia]

I'm not sure if anyone quoted this yet. At any rate, I thought this bit of info was inspiring:

Wiccan growth rate:

"A second important statistic is the rate of growth of the Wiccan community. "In May, 1998, the Chicago Tribune reported that, though difficult to quantify due to lack of formal organization, neo-paganism is the fastest-growing religion in North America with the Internet being the prime means of proselytizing." 1 Ms. Curott estimates a doubling in size every 18 months. This growth rate seems quite high, but appears to have some credibility in the Wiccan community. The ARIS survey of the American adult population indicates a growth in the Wiccan community of 17 fold between 1990 and 2001 - the highest of any faith group monitored. This would indicate a doubling in numbers of adherents about ever 2.5 years. 2

If the latter growth rate is accurate and if it continues, then Wicca would be the third largest religious group in the U.S. by about 2012, behind Christianity and Judaism."

Found Here: http://www.religioustolerance.org/wic_nbr1.htm

[morningstar2651]

Everything that lives must eventually die.

[morningstar2651]

I am not Wiccan and I have never had any interest at all in Wicca, but I will guess "No, it will not die out." If every Wiccan on the planet died right now and all records of Wicca were removed, someone somewhere would eventually subconsciously connect with the Earth and the Goddess in the way particular to Wicca and they'd follow that path. Others would feel a pull to that person and what they were doing. And the religion would be reborn. Possibly under a different name, but it would be back. My opinion.Unless, of course, we go extinct and/or the Earth is destroyed.

[SalemWitchChild]

I voted no at least based on the reasons given. If Wiccans are really so shallow about their religion as to abandon it merely because of how others practice it then in my opinion they weren't very solid about Wicca in the first place.

Those who find Wicca meaningful will practice it regardless of whether it's popular or not, regardless whether or not other Wiccans agree with them or not on whatever specific topic we care to bring up for discussion. Wiccans who are solid in their religious practice aren't shattered by examinations of its history or preposterous claims made by those who don't really know what they're talking about.

[Edited to correct grammar mistake.]

I think this gentleman said it best. :)

[jcldragon]

I voted "Yes", simply because something even better will eventually come along. I'm not expecting that at any time soon, and whatever replaces Wicca, will naturally incorporate all the best things in it anyway...

For example, official & very public communication with extraterrestial species, will have profound effects upon the religions of humanity. Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, Shamanism, & Wicca, would be less affected than the other religions & philosophies, since the possibility of such contact is already at least a little bit a part of those religions already. Extraterrestials will want us to be in touch with the planet we are living on, since Gaia is a living being, more than worthy of being respected as a Goddess.

[ShadowcatX]

Nope, Wicca's becoming a power of it's own. It may grow and change but it won't die.

"There's no end or beginning, there is only change."

[shuvanilu]

Excellent way of putting it, ShadowcatX!---shuvanilu

[Tanya]

Yes I do think Wicca will die out. I hope it will die into a larger merging of spiritual awareness and ethical behavior which transends religious definations. I do not see that happening in this or the next few generations, but I look forward to it.

[Philosophia]

No, Wicca won't die out. It'll evolve and grow with the changing society, and probably take on a lot more systems and traditions.

[Maverynthia]

I think the term Wicca will die out, considering there are people that think you can be both Christian and Wiccan. (One or the other, or call yourself and ecclectic religionist). Also, people see Wicca as a "make your own religion" since some books make it seem that you can do whatever, I guess including replacing the God and Goddess with just "one true god".
I think the other forms of Paganism however will keep going since they seem to have more solid roots and don't adhere to the "make stuff up" rule.

[SilentDreams]

I voted "maybe".

I think Wicca could die out. But then, so could a lot of religions.

Truthfully, I see Wicca hitting a "climax" in a sense. I see its popularity rising and rising to a final point. Then (perhaps due to something drastic) I believe it will cool off. I think after that point we'll begin to see the growth rate of new Wiccans drop. But I think this is a good thing. Wicca has so many problems at the moment. Well, perhaps not the religion itself, but problems with followers. As has been said time and time again, *way* too many people are just joining for the wrong reasons. Some being to anger their parents and rebel, others sometimes doing it to be "cool". I don't think anyone should "join" a spiritual path for such reasons.

Yet these things are very common these days. So I'm hoping Wicca does hit that "climax" and it does cool off after that. So that we'll stop seeing this flood of people who aren't really interested.

[coeur]

I don't think Wicca will die out because there are people who are Wiccan and raising Wiccan children (serious Wiccans that is). However, the religion itself is sort of weak in structure compared to say, Christianity. I think that Wicca will become more unified over time and become more defined. It will flesh out acquire different sects of thought and possibly fracture in ways that might be less peaceful than the way it is now.

In other words, it needs to develop a stronger theology, but, I think that it will within 100 years (if it lives that long which I think it will).

[thought_on_a_wind]

It seems rather far fetched that it will die... the "modern" definition of it? Yes. However (myself at least) I started practicing because I felt the pull of of nature to go into Wicca because it seemed more grounded than those "secular" faiths that have been stagnating for 2000 years. Why? Because it does evolve. Always has and always will. Just because it is melding with other traditions doesn't mean too much, just that Wicca as a whole is adapting. It is kind of trendy to be a wiccan now, however, even if it falls out of the limelight, you still have people who've been passing it from generation to generation for a decent amount of time, thus ensuring it's survival... and, for some odd reason, I doubt that there are too many people that want to go back to a religion that makes you feel guilty for just about everything, and has a lack of the sense of personal connectedness that Wicca provides, not to mention (enhancing the first statement) the forced masochism (mentally speaking that is). As far as accepting other gods and the such. I've had friends who invoked Kali for some hardcore protection, but they were still pretty wiccan.

[Amythyst]

No, there will always be an endless stream of upcoming generations searching for their path.

[Karyan]

I chose yes. But by choosing yes I mostly mean that there's a damn good chance. But I didn't see "There's a damn good chance" as an option. =P The reason I think there's such a possiblilty is because history has a tendency to repeat itself.

<Edit> Haha! I suppose I could have just chosen "other." But I'm blind as a BAT. lol.

[MorningDove030202]

I have this to say:

1) No one person can know of all the various Wiccan Traditions and Groups that exist. No one, not even the so called Famous Wiccan Authors. There probably are traditions that arn't even online, that don't have web pages, etc. What I'm getting at here, is that dispite all the criticism that "Wicca" gets, it's impossible for anyone to make such vast assumptions about "all of Wicca".

2) Alot of Wiccan groups will die out and have died out. Covens come and go all the time. I think the next 50 years or so we will see some strong, healthy, well lead, intellegent traditions emerge. They might not be the most popular, or the most published, but some some groups will be sucessful.

3)There will always be solitary Wicca for as long as the books are available.

Dove

[Lola]

I think that we don't have anything to fear in loosing Wicca as a way of life in this life time especially since there are no Witch Trials and such. It just seems to me that there is much more respect/understanding...or maybe people are just leaving things alone a lot more and not making a big deal about people who think or look different; at least in my part of the world.

I am not Wiccan, but of the Earth Religion frame of mind, in the same realm, and I known that will NEVER DIE because it is the first spirituality and it seems that people as a whole never forvet the origional of things.
Like the Little Black Dress.
The First, It Fits Everyone, It Makes Sense.

[HorseCrow]

No, I don't think it will die out, but I'm sure it will evolve.

[Bethra]

I ticked the obligitory other because I don't believe it will die out as such. I'm not a wiccan nor have I ever considered myself to be wiccan but I don't see how something can die out really. I think it may change and alter and may not always look like wicca looks today, just as yesterdays wicca looked different than todays. All things must evolve if they are to stay alive and I believe wicca can evolve in its own way and survive the changing fashions and times. It might not always be so popular or always be the buzz of the moment but no I don't expect it will die out.

[pickleofdoom]

I do not believe it will die out completely. It will, of course, fade from the popular limelight. It will stop being the trendy rebellious thing to do amongst sheeple, there will be less of the shallow "Wicca kits" for lazy consumers, and we'll see less trendy little pentacle stickers and such at places like Hot Topic. At least god I hope so. The beauty about trends, as annoying and shallow as they are, they don't last long. Soon it will be something else.
I wonder, if after Wicca becomes less trendy, if there's going to be a turn back to traditional Wicca. Less of the "Wicca is whatever you want" attitude and such.
I sure am just rambling.

[Romani Vixen]

It will die out. Every religion dies out at some point. There's no saying when it will die out though. (20 years is probably cutting it a bit close though)

The universe is cyclic. Things go away and things comeback in a different form. But they do go away.

I am Kemetic Orthodox. The Kemetic (Egyptian) faith was so much a part of everyone's life that they didn't even have a seperate word for religion. The faith lasted longer than Christianity has. But it didn't last. It did die out eventually. And it has come back again, ever so slightly modified.

I do find Hinduism interesting. That one has lasting power! But I do feel that it will die out eventually too.

What will continue on is the basis for all religions. There is an underlying truth to everything, and the religions are just trying to show that truth, but they are metaphorical, and metaphor is imperfect, and so it shall die out eventually. But each religion will help more people come to know the truth (aka enlightenment, gnosis, etc).

Senebty and Namaste

[MorningDove030202]

I do not believe it will die out completely. It will, of course, fade from the popular limelight. It will stop being the trendy rebellious thing to do amongst sheeple, there will be less of the shallow "Wicca kits" for lazy consumers, and we'll see less trendy little pentacle stickers and such at places like Hot Topic. At least god I hope so. The beauty about trends, as annoying and shallow as they are, they don't last long. Soon it will be something else.
I wonder, if after Wicca becomes less trendy, if there's going to be a turn back to traditional Wicca. Less of the "Wicca is whatever you want" attitude and such.
I sure am just rambling.

I think that as healthy well established groups grow, it will be easier for people to find opportunities for in-person training and today's very realistic need for what you call "Lazy Wicca Kits" will decrease. As quality training increases, you will find that "lazy people" will probably either

a) find something worth studdying and be more inclined to dedicate themselves to the Practice of Wicca
OR
b)find something else to be lazy about.

I think the "Lazy Wiccan/NeoPagan mentality" is a product of lack of healthy established groups who provide training, more than people just being lazy. I don't think that comercialized "Wicca Kits" make people lazy.
The kits my fall very much short of the full flavor of Wicca, but it's still a resource and it's up to the individual to make the most of their resources.

Dove

[Druchii]

All systems of belief will ebb and flow from drought to fertile at some point. I am not familiar enough with Wicca as it stands to really say that it will stay or not. But I do believe that even if the nomenclature changes and the level of social tolerance and/or acceptance changes for better or worse, some aspect of it will survive. Albeit, reinterpreted and inevitably changed... but such is the way of any rhetoric or concept based off the principal's of any set of individual's thoughts or ways, kwim?

[gonk]

All religions, given a long enough time line, will die...some will resurface (i.e. Wicca has resurfaced several ancient religions), but nothing is forever

[wolfjan1]

I agree; dogma IS the curse of religion. Being new to certain Wiccan studies, I find that reading everything I can get my hands on is quite helpful. I am finding, however, that older, more traditional books are more helpful to me in the forms of herbal and other remedies. As far as finding my own path, We all do that to some extent.
I will learn more, continue to do no harm and continue to care for others and the earth as I always have.
Blessed Be.

[Romani Vixen]

Unless, of course, we go extinct and/or the Earth is destroyed.

He really does have a point here.

How old is the Earth? Roughly 4.5 *billion* years old.

How long have humans been on the Earth? 100,000 years.

Do we really have the balls to think that humans will *never* go extinct? Even if we don't die due to changing environmental factors, we will kill ourselves out!

I choose not to be so presumptious. But that's just me.

:)

[Dave the Druid]

I doubt it. There are too many young ones starting. Wicca may go into the closet for a while but it won't die out.

[mystic_zoe]

I doubt it. There are too many young ones starting. Wicca may go into the closet for a while but it won't die out.

i agree! i think people will always at least have an interest in wicca and paganism.

[twentyeyes]

Wicca has a beginning, so it will have an end. I can't see it dying out within our lifetimes, though.

[Lovehound]

The answer depends, of course, on what you view Wicca as being. Those who think it is a modern invention by Gerald Gardner will likely take one kind of view; those who see it as a religion with roots in medieval society--or even further back into prehistory--will take another view.

My own view is magical. Wicca has always existed, since people looked up into the sky with awe and perhaps terror at the shining thing above them, felt their part in the movement of animal life, and partook of the life-and-death cycle, alone and in the company of other humans. Wicca does not come from any one person, nor is it a momentary infatuation of media-generated and commercially driven origin. It comes from and returns to the gods; it is the play of Power, the arena of creation and destruction.

In this sense, of course, the specific trappings of Wicca matter very little; people have always felt the Powers, worshipped them, attempted to understand, control, and propitiate them. This will not change until and unless humanity loses its sense of the sacred.

While I do feel, very seriously, that I have transcended labels like "Wicca" and whatnot, I have to admit I don't care for this line of thinking.

"Wicca has always existed since people looked up into the sky..." This is the kind of thinking that leads to people assuming that no matter what you do, it's Wicca. Just lighting a candle and saying a wish is Wicca, according to this viewpoint. Going to mass at St. Peter and St. Paul Cathedral and receving the body and blood of Christ is Wicca. Everything the first people of the Americas do is Wicca.

No it isn't. There's a reason Wicca is Wicca and not Anglicanism, not shamanism, not Hinduism, etc - because it has specific qualities that separate it and make it different from anything else.

To try and say it's all the same thing, that everything is Wicca and Wicca is everything, is to do a tremendous disrespect to diversity of religious expression and faith.

Let Wicca be Wicca. And if it does or does not survive - that's up to the people who walk that path.

I have to admit there are moments when, over the years, I've lost a lot of respect for Wiccans, because they seem to practice anything BUT Wicca. I don't know what it is they DO practice, but it can't be called Wicca any more. I think most of these people need to find a new name for what they do.

[Lovehound]

I had a really evil thought in responding to this question. It went something like this:

Q: Will Wicca Die Out?

A: Dear Gods, I Hope So!

I can't believe I went there.

[aluokaloo]

I'm not a wiccan, but I voted no, because wicca is wicca, no religion truely dies out, and wicca if anything is pretty large as a spiritualpath. If people don't want to follow it because it evolves and changes that is their problem, the practitioners of wicca will continue topractice it.

[KylalaKitty]

Yes I believe Wicca will die out. I used to be wiccan until I got tired of it. It just was too confusing because of all the junk thats been thrown into it. Wicca is nothing more than a bunch of religions thrown together into one. In time Wicca is going to become unrecognizable because EVEN more junk is going to be thrown in.


Honestly, on our present course, I expect Wicca to die out within 20 years - the serious practioners will have given up and moved on to other groups, and the Bunnies will no longer find it cool.

[Cornflake_Girl8]

No. Why?

People are looking to alternate sources for not only food and fuel, but for spiritual enlightment. Granted, you'll find a lot of people who have no idea what they're talking about even they are calling themselves Wiccan.

It's the organic way to go. :flowers:

[WiccanGoddess]

Why would any religion die out?

[Lullebulle]

Yes, of course. All human will die, sooner or later. Wiccans aren't immortal. I don't belive it will have anything to do with new crap being thrown into it. Just look at christianity, everything that's changed and it still exists

[robinrowland]

People who follow the wiccian path have been around before the time of any organized religons, and I believe thet we will be here long after these things too, :wave: fall away. We have a belief that does not go away. When you plant a garden, when you use natural healing, when you offer up a prayer to the mother, you are practiceing wicca.

[Crystal_Raye]

Hopefully it will only die out among the fluffies

[Snapdragon]

Hopefully the world will not die; that is my active concern, since human beings seem determined to kill Her. If the world survives, there will be Wicca...for Wicca is at heart nothing other than the worship of and service to Her.

May She continue to live for many eons.

[ravenhecate999]

there are too many wiccans like myself who will not let that happen. we will pass it on to our children, and teach it to whoever will listen. religions dont just "die out". to the people who worship the gods, they are real!!! and somthing that real dosent just dissapear.

[covenofkeys]

:javaswim::nyah:

[CoyoteShadow]

The answer to this question lies in comparing it to other religions.

Look at Christianity. It didn't die out. It became a massive global structure built with different hierarchies, divided sects, and with varying dogmas.

So if we compare, chances are Wicca won't die out but just change beyond recognition as time moves on.

[River]

I say no for all the reasons above.

[Mesektet]

I was on wicca for the rest of us and came to this page (http://wicca.timerift.net/history_real.html), and the author says:



Do you think it's true, will wicca die out in 20 years (or more or less), if you're a serious practicioner, are you/have you considered leaving, what's your view on it.

Also, do you think this would affect 'paganism' in anyway, since wicca is (i think) the largest 'pagan' movement, would the others die out too (such as Asatru, Kemetism, Hellenic reconstructionism, etc).

Anyway, what are your thoughts?

Nowhere is it written that any faith must last forever.
Though 20 years from now? That sounds a bit cynical.

[Theres]

People who follow the wiccian path have been around before the time of any organized religons
really?

When you plant a garden, when you use natural healing, when you offer up a prayer to the mother, you are practiceing wicca.
excuse me , but i do all those things and i am most definitely NOT practicing Wicca.

[CoyoteShadow]

People who follow the wiccian path have been around before the time of any organized religons, and I believe thet we will be here long after these things too.

Actually, Wicca is a modern day religion founded by Gerald Gardner in the 1950s some time after the British Witchcraft Act was repealed.

[Phoenix_Blue]

So if we compare, chances are Wicca won't die out but just change beyond recognition as time moves on.
Is it still Wicca if it's unrecognizable a few generations from now, or even a few centuries?

I wonder what Christ would think of Christianity.

[CoyoteShadow]

Is it still Wicca if it's unrecognizable a few generations from now, or even a few centuries?

I wonder what Christ would think of Christianity.

Excellent point. Some would argue yes. I would not. Come to think of it, if it only survived by name, I doubt you could say it actually survived at all.

[Carla O'Harris]

Actually, Wicca is a modern day religion founded by Gerald Gardner in the 1950s some time after the British Witchcraft Act was repealed.


That's a biased, polemical viewpoint. Yes, some people hold to this viewpoint. But it cannot be represented monolithically as "the truth".

In fact we know that Gardner did not found it, but was initiated into an existing witch-group that practiced pagan-religious witchcraft. There is speculation over how old this coven was, but that it existed is hardly in question any longer. Some claim it merely formed in the early 1900s, while others claim it originated in the Napoleonic age (supported by oral lore within the coven), while others claim it originated in Elizabethan times (also supported, not as strongly, by oral lore within the coven). Of those who hold that it has at least an Elizabethan tenure, there are speculations about its possible Mediterranean Mystery Cult sources, and even some aspects that may have Bronze or Neolithic Age themes.

In any case, whether the cult formed in the mid 1800's or the early 1900's as part of a romantic revival, or whether it indeed had a long pedigree, its structure is absolutely consonant with variants of fairy-religion found all over Europe since the Dark Ages, and this fairy-religion traces directly from pagan times.

Of this fairy-faith there is no historical doubt whatsoever. People honored (and held in awe) a pantheon of fairies presided over by a Queen and King fairy-deity figure, by leaving offerings of food and drink, and people joined them for seasonal celebrations. The debate is over how far past ecstatic-visionary experience this "joining" involved. It is clear that some people were thought to have actually become fairies, so they participated in fairy spirituality themselves, and were co-extensive with the fairy-divinity. In such states, they learned about healing, herbs, and magic. It is also clear that people dressed up in costumes imitating fairy and forest spirits at special holidays all over Europe, and in many of these cases were thought to transform into such beings during the costuming. At these holidays, they cavorted, danced, sang, made love, and travelled from house to house, just as the witches and fairies were said to do at their sabbats. Thus, on the one hand, we have religious mystics joining the fairies on special days in ecstatic out-of-body visionary states, where they would participate in the sabbat, where the fairies danced, feasted, and made love ; and on the other hand, we have popular festivals where people dressed in costumes, went from house to house, danced, feasted, and made love, just as the fairies did. We have converging evidence suggesting both visionary experience and popular enactment. But the visionary experience alone is enough to call the experiences religious. In fact, the science of folklore studies alone predicts that strong folk themes have a tendency to be ostended, which is to say, enacted, mythic themes being played out in ritualized form. Given the powerful strength of the fairy folklore alone, we would expect to have periodic and perennial ostension of fairy folklore, which means people actually acting out in various ways and forms this resonant, evocative material.

We find evidence of this fairy-faith in various, diverse conjugations (with the same basic root-structure) not only all over Europe, but in all time-periods since recorded history began in Europe, and thus, there is no reason why there could not be such a group surfacing at any time.

Thus, Gardner's group may well have been a surfacing of such an intergenerational group. If it was not, and they were consciously reviving the fairy-faith, they were doing so based on established historical precedents, and they did so in a faithful and original manner, based on a structure with an at least 1300 year history. If the latter, they were one more example of perennial recreation of the fairy-witch faith.

Thus, the two strongest possibilities are either that 1) the group Gardner was initiated into was a tradition with a long history stretching back into early Modern times and even into the Middle Ages, or 2) the group Gardner was initiated into was a Romantic perennial resurgence of the autochthonic fairy-religion of Europe that like a phoenix continually recreates itself from its own ashes. While this faith takes different expressions at different times, its basic logic coheres. This is why I suspect that Wicca or something very much like it will continue to exist into the future, because by any reasonable argument that takes into account the above historically-verified facts, it has a long history and tradition behind it, and thus has proven itself to be sustainable, even under the most difficult of situations.

[Regulus]

Religions like civilizations come and go, Wicca is no different.

[David19]

That's a biased, polemical viewpoint. Yes, some people hold to this viewpoint. But it cannot be represented monolithically as "the truth".

In fact we know that Gardner did not found it, but was initiated into an existing witch-group that practiced pagan-religious witchcraft. There is speculation over how old this coven was, but that it existed is hardly in question any longer. Some claim it merely formed in the early 1900s, while others claim it originated in the Napoleonic age (supported by oral lore within the coven), while others claim it originated in Elizabethan times (also supported, not as strongly, by oral lore within the coven). Of those who hold that it has at least an Elizabethan tenure, there are speculations about its possible Mediterranean Mystery Cult sources, and even some aspects that may have Bronze or Neolithic Age themes.

If there's oral lore within the coven, then how come this 'oral law' is suddenly common knowledge, this coven can't be doing a good job of keeping secrets can they?.

In any case, whether the cult formed in the mid 1800's or the early 1900's as part of a romantic revival, or whether it indeed had a long pedigree, its structure is absolutely consonant with variants of fairy-religion found all over Europe since the Dark Ages, and this fairy-religion traces directly from pagan times.

Of this fairy-faith there is no historical doubt whatsoever. People honored (and held in awe) a pantheon of fairies presided over by a Queen and King fairy-deity figure, by leaving offerings of food and drink, and people joined them for seasonal celebrations. The debate is over how far past ecstatic-visionary experience this "joining" involved. It is clear that some people were thought to have actually become fairies, so they participated in fairy spirituality themselves, and were co-extensive with the fairy-divinity. In such states, they learned about healing, herbs, and magic. It is also clear that people dressed up in costumes imitating fairy and forest spirits at special holidays all over Europe, and in many of these cases were thought to transform into such beings during the costuming. At these holidays, they cavorted, danced, sang, made love, and travelled from house to house, just as the witches and fairies were said to do at their sabbats. Thus, on the one hand, we have religious mystics joining the fairies on special days in ecstatic out-of-body visionary states, where they would participate in the sabbat, where the fairies danced, feasted, and made love ; and on the other hand, we have popular festivals where people dressed in costumes, went from house to house, danced, feasted, and made love, just as the fairies did. We have converging evidence suggesting both visionary experience and popular enactment. But the visionary experience alone is enough to call the experiences religious. In fact, the science of folklore studies alone predicts that strong folk themes have a tendency to be ostended, which is to say, enacted, mythic themes being played out in ritualized form. Given the powerful strength of the fairy folklore alone, we would expect to have periodic and perennial ostension of fairy folklore, which means people actually acting out in various ways and forms this resonant, evocative material.

We find evidence of this fairy-faith in various, diverse conjugations (with the same basic root-structure) not only all over Europe, but in all time-periods since recorded history began in Europe, and thus, there is no reason why there could not be such a group surfacing at any time.

Thus, Gardner's group may well have been a surfacing of such an intergenerational group. If it was not, and they were consciously reviving the fairy-faith, they were doing so based on established historical precedents, and they did so in a faithful and original manner, based on a structure with an at least 1300 year history. If the latter, they were one more example of perennial recreation of the fairy-witch faith.

Thus, the two strongest possibilities are either that 1) the group Gardner was initiated into was a tradition with a long history stretching back into early Modern times and even into the Middle Ages, or 2) the group Gardner was initiated into was a Romantic perennial resurgence of the autochthonic fairy-religion of Europe that like a phoenix continually recreates itself from its own ashes. While this faith takes different expressions at different times, its basic logic coheres. This is why I suspect that Wicca or something very much like it will continue to exist into the future, because by any reasonable argument that takes into account the above historically-verified facts, it has a long history and tradition behind it, and thus has proven itself to be sustainable, even under the most difficult of situations.

So if this group did stay hidden (and i'm not making assumptions either way, for now, i'll assume it did), then what makes you or anyone else think they'll find evidence of it, no offence, but if they can be found, then to me, their not exactly good hiders, and what do they have to hide from now, there's no 'burning times', Christians don't give a BS about Wicca or Wiccans or Pagans (at least here in the UK, fundamentalist's, IMO, are very rare here, at least compared to the U.S.).

I've always had this idea that if there was a coven, and is still in operation today, their not hiding from Christians, there hiding from other other Pagans, if they were to come 'out of hiding', you'd probably get thousands of fluff bunnies, who quote SRW and everything, wanting a piece of them, that's probably a fate worse than death LOL!.

Also, you mentioned a connection to fairies, while i don't know as much as you about this, fairies, to me, are lower down on the supernatural hierarchy, than deities (e.g. the Fae aren't gods as far as i know, Diana is a god, the fae aren't).

[Carla O'Harris]

If there's oral lore within the coven, then how come this 'oral law' is suddenly common knowledge, this coven can't be doing a good job of keeping secrets can they?.

They did a great job. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective!), they were waning, and initiated a certain Gerald Gardner, who didn't want to see the traditions die out, and thus publicized some things about them, and began his own initiatory coven. The entire idea all along was to keep the tradition initiatory, with people who honored and held the tradition sacred. Unfortunately, in the modern age, with jaded folks who can't believe anything nor hold anything sacred, people began being initiated who didn't take the gift seriously, and oaths were broken, and material that was meant to be within the initiatory womb-space was publicized to the masses, who didn't have the shaping-environment to really put all of this in context. None of this is the fault of the original New Forest Coven, all of the members of whom are no longer in mortal form on this earth. Gardner's contribution has been ambivalent --- excellent, in the sense of not letting the traditions die out, but perhaps from the perspective of the New Forest members, with some negative side-effects of modern folks with no connection to the original context being enabled to take things out of context, set aside the traditional rules, and sell out its genuine history to cynical and skeptical university historians.



So if this group did stay hidden (and i'm not making assumptions either way, for now, i'll assume it did), then what makes you or anyone else think they'll find evidence of it, no offence, but if they can be found, then to me, their not exactly good hiders, and what do they have to hide from now, there's no 'burning times', Christians don't give a BS about Wicca or Wiccans or Pagans (at least here in the UK, fundamentalist's, IMO, are very rare here, at least compared to the U.S.).

I've always had this idea that if there was a coven, and is still in operation today, their not hiding from Christians, there hiding from other other Pagans, if they were to come 'out of hiding', you'd probably get thousands of fluff bunnies, who quote SRW and everything, wanting a piece of them, that's probably a fate worse than death LOL!.

Well, you make a very good point. I do in fact think that the new underground is from the mainstream mass pagans who are superficial in their approach to the religion, just as Native Americans have shied away from the mass marketing of a distortion of their religion. This was never a religion meant to be mass marketed, but to be handed in trust from one initiatory cell to another, or handed down within families. That doesn't mean that it was a bad thing that Gardner publicized things per se. It means he was a seed-caster, and we'll just have to see where that seed falls, on what kinds of soil, and what kind of sustainable trees end up growing themselves. Perhaps in time old growth forests can reestablish themselves. In the meantime, we see the seeds falling on all kinds of inadequate soil, but that may just be a passing phase. The "popular" phase of Wicca --- the cool, new, fad --- may indeed die out, with most people thinking it was just something invented in the 1950s, and meanwhile, where the seeds have found good soil, new initiatory traditions faithful to the spirit of the old New Forest Coven but also true to their own locations and situations can emerge.



Also, you mentioned a connection to fairies, while i don't know as much as you about this, fairies, to me, are lower down on the supernatural hierarchy, than deities (e.g. the Fae aren't gods as far as i know, Diana is a god, the fae aren't).

Well, the Tuatha de Danaan (the fairies) were indeed powerful supernatural spirits, indeed the gods of Ireland. You are correct that Faery is a large and vast kingdom with many creatures and many levels, but those who are high elves are definitely of a divine provenance. The elves are spoken of in Eddic poetry as being one of the races of the gods. And the King and Queen of the elvish race who rules over the vast faery kingdom are indeed gods. But if you wish to simply call them vastly powerful, vastly holy supernatural figures who were venerated and given offerings, that's just a matter of terminology to me. The Church saw the devotion, and in many, many cases found it threatening and demonic.

[David19]

They did a great job. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective!), they were waning, and initiated a certain Gerald Gardner, who didn't want to see the traditions die out, and thus publicized some things about being enabled to take things out of context, set aside the traditional rthem, and began his own initiatory coven. The entire idea all along was to keep the tradition initiatory, with people who honored and held the tradition sacred. Unfortunately, in the modern age, with jaded folks who can't believe anything nor hold anything sacred, people began being initiated who didn't take the gift seriously, and oaths were broken, and material that was meant to be within the initiatory womb-space was publicized to the masses, who didn't have the shaping-environment to really put all of this in context. None of this is the fault of the original New Forest Coven, all of the members of whom are no longer in mortal form on this earth. Gardner's contribution has been ambivalent --- excellent, in the sense of not letting the traditions die out, but perhaps from the perspective of the New Forest members, with some negative side-effects of modern folks with no connection to the original context ules, and sell out its genuine history to cynical and skeptical university historians.

Although, it could be that if Gardner did indeed find a coven, he may have found something great, but he may have also seen a way to become famous and make some money (e.g. writing books, appearing in the media, etc).

From what i've read and heard, he did court the media a lot, which caused a lot of tension between other members, like i think Vialiente left him to go work with Cochrane because of this reason.

Also, i don't know if you've heard of Robery Cochrane (Roy Bowers), he started the Clan of Tubal Cain, a Traditional witchcraft group (and also, partly, responsible for the 1734 Tradition), that was one of the reasons he hated Gardner, and the reason he created the term Gardnerian (as an insult) to them.

Well, the Tuatha de Danaan (the fairies) were indeed powerful supernatural spirits, indeed the gods of Ireland. You are correct that Faery is a large and vast kingdom with many creatures and many levels, but those who are high elves are definitely of a divine provenance. The elves are spoken of in Eddic poetry as being one of the races of the gods. And the King and Queen of the elvish race who rules over the vast faery kingdom are indeed gods. But if you wish to simply call them vastly powerful, vastly holy supernatural figures who were venerated and given offerings, that's just a matter of terminology to me. The Church saw the devotion, and in many, many cases found it threatening and demonic.

I wasn't trying to say that they weren't deities, but i don't think any of the gods, traditionally, associated with witchcraft (e.g. Diana, Hecate, Aradia, etc) were fairies/Fae.

That said i don't think the deities that are associated with witchcraft (Hecate, Aradia, Diana, etc) were the gods in the New Forest coven, 'cause from what Eran said in one of his posts in the Wicca forum and also what i've read in Ronald Hutton's 'Witches, Druids, and King Arthur' (which, just from what i've read in the shops, is great BTW, i'm going to take it out of the library soon), he quotes Gardner as saying he worshipped a goddess and a god, who were native British deities, 2 very specific deities, i'm highlighting the words 'cause i think it's important to note that Gardner worshipped 2 specific deities, out of many, not the typical 'all gods are 1 god, all goddesses are 1 goddess' or the 'soft' polytheism that is in many neo-pagan sites, books and beliefs (there's nothing wrong with those beliefs either, but just from what i've read, it's not what Gardner and/or the New Forest coven believed).

BTW, this may be off topic, but i was wondering, do you know of any good books to learn more about the Fae kingdoms/realms/planes/whatever, as i think it's interesting :).

[Carla O'Harris]

Although, it could be that if Gardner did indeed find a coven, he may have found something great, but he may have also seen a way to become famous and make some money (e.g. writing books, appearing in the media, etc).

Well, this is something that can be directly examined with evidence. Please present the evidence that Gardner scored gold over Wicca. How much did he make on his books? How much did he make for appearing before the media? If you're suggesting a mercenary motivation, this can be proven or disproven directly with existing financial statements. Until you can do so, which I doubt can be done (because authors of any ilk rarely make much money at all from their books, and because in terms of media coverage, we aren't talking about an age of Oprah where one is going to score large profits off of appearing), I must consider this a completely unsupported proposition. And if you'll read Gardner himself, you will see how much affection he had not only for the members of the New Forest Coven, but for the rites themself. This is not a man with purely mercenary motives. I doubt there's evidence of any mercenary motives whatsoever.

From what i've read and heard, he did court the media a lot, which caused a lot of tension between other members, like i think Vialiente left him to go work with Cochrane because of this reason.Also, i don't know if you've heard of Robery Cochrane (Roy Bowers), he started the Clan of Tubal Cain, a Traditional witchcraft group (and also, partly, responsible for the 1734 Tradition), that was one of the reasons he hated Gardner, and the reason he created the term Gardnerian (as an insult) to them.

There was a lot of conflict over this issue, but not because Gardner was some kind of carnival huckster trying to make a quick buck off promoting something (that 'honor' might lie perhaps with La Vey or Hubbard), but because Gardner understood the objections against publicizing, but was so passionate --- one might even say evangelical to a degree --- about the cult that he didn't want to see it die out, and he was seeing precisely that. For him, it was too beautiful not to share, even with the cost of some people misunderstanding or cheapening things through mass-marketing. That has happened, by the way, but on the other hand, those of us who are sincere and sincerely honor the gift Gardner has passed on to us, now have the opportunity to connect with something beautiful we otherwise would not have known about.



I wasn't trying to say that they weren't deities, but i don't think any of the gods, traditionally, associated with witchcraft (e.g. Diana, Hecate, Aradia, etc) were fairies/Fae.

Diana and Hecate were often identified, so what we say about the one may often apply to the other. Diana and Artemis indeed had trains of nymphs, who were the Greek fairies. Leland reveals a myth in the book Aradia that directly connects Diana with the fairies. In that same book, Aradia is considered to be Diana's daughter, and so she would have a connection as well. Even if we separate them, Herodias is identified with Frau Hulda, and Hulda was a queen of elves, and therefore Herodias has the association. No matter how you spin it, all of those deities have a connection either absolutely directly and contiguous with, or indirectly with, the fairies, most often ruling over them.

That said i don't think the deities that are associated with witchcraft (Hecate, Aradia, Diana, etc) were the gods in the New Forest coven, 'cause from what Eran said in one of his posts in the Wicca forum and also what i've read in Ronald Hutton's 'Witches, Druids, and King Arthur' (which, just from what i've read in the shops, is great BTW, i'm going to take it out of the library soon), he quotes Gardner as saying he worshipped a goddess and a god, who were native British deities, 2 very specific deities, i'm highlighting the words 'cause i think it's important to note that Gardner worshipped 2 specific deities, out of many, not the typical 'all gods are 1 god, all goddesses are 1 goddess' or the 'soft' polytheism that is in many neo-pagan sites, books and beliefs (there's nothing wrong with those beliefs either, but just from what i've read, it's not what Gardner and/or the New Forest coven believed).

They didn't say that all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess, but they for damn sure did say that their goddess was known by many names, and they elucidated a number of the names by which she had been known. In other words, they recognized their deity in those other deities. That doesn't mean that every goddess fit the bill, but many did. They are indeed asserting the singularity of a polynymous god and goddess.

BTW, this may be off topic, but i was wondering, do you know of any good books to learn more about the Fae kingdoms/realms/planes/whatever, as i think it's interesting :).

Here's a good place to start :

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/index.htm

(The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries by W. Y. Evans-Wentz)

Here's another good source :

http://www.amazon.com/Fairies-Tradition-Literature-Katherine-Briggs/dp/0947792287

(The Fairies in Tradition and Literature by Katherine Briggs)

And yet another one :

http://www.celtic-twilight.com/otherworld/fairy_mythology/index.htm

(THE FAIRY MYTHOLOGY :Illustrative of the Romance and Superstition of Various Countries, by Thomas Keightley)

Those three should keep you going for a while. Let me know when you're finished if you want anything else ; I have a fairly good knowledge about the fairies.

[Mythrel]

I don't think it will completely die out... but I think it's popularity will dwindle... it'll be some time before there is another resurgence to the faith in my opinion

[David19]

They didn't say that all gods are one god and all goddesses are one goddess, but they for damn sure did say that their goddess was known by many names, and they elucidated a number of the names by which she had been known. In other words, they recognized their deity in those other deities. That doesn't mean that every goddess fit the bill, but many did. They are indeed asserting the singularity of a polynymous god and goddess.

But, and i don't have the exact quote on me, but i've read a quote from Gardner in Hutton's 'Witches, Druids, and King Arthur' that his god and goddess were native British deities, they were connected to the very British Isles.

Something else that was in Hutton's book, was that the Charge, i think, may have been a way of presenting the First Cause (that you get in Greek philosophy and belief), just like many people seem to take one god and mix it with the First Cause e.g. i'm going to sound dumb, but i can't remember the name of the book, but it talks about the Isis Cult, (maybe the Golden Asse?), and the way she's described isn't Isis, but the First Cause in Isis's dress, so to speak, maybe that's what Gardner, or Vialiente, did, placing the First Cause in the 'dress' of a goddess, maybe it's something you really understand when you're initiated or something?.


Here's a good place to start :

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/ffcc/index.htm

(The Fairy-Faith in Celtic Countries by W. Y. Evans-Wentz)

Here's another good source :

http://www.amazon.com/Fairies-Tradition-Literature-Katherine-Briggs/dp/0947792287

(The Fairies in Tradition and Literature by Katherine Briggs)

And yet another one :

http://www.celtic-twilight.com/otherworld/fairy_mythology/index.htm

(THE FAIRY MYTHOLOGY :Illustrative of the Romance and Superstition of Various Countries, by Thomas Keightley)

Those three should keep you going for a while. Let me know when you're finished if you want anything else ; I have a fairly good knowledge about the fairies.

Thanks for the book list, they look really interesting :).

[Ben Gruagach]

Something else that was in Hutton's book, was that the Charge, i think, may have been a way of presenting the First Cause (that you get in Greek philosophy and belief), just like many people seem to take one god and mix it with the First Cause e.g. i'm going to sound dumb, but i can't remember the name of the book, but it talks about the Isis Cult, (maybe the Golden Asse?), and the way she's described isn't Isis, but the First Cause in Isis's dress, so to speak, maybe that's what Gardner, or Vialiente, did, placing the First Cause in the 'dress' of a goddess, maybe it's something you really understand when you're initiated or something?.

Is the Isis book you're talking about "Isis Unveiled" by H. P. Blavatsky? Blavatsky's system and organization, Theosophy, was highly influenti