Athene question

[David19]

Today i read that Athene originally came from North Africa and was a goddess of womens mysteries, is this true, as i didn't know that the Ancient Greeks went into Africa.

[_Banbha_]

Athena and many other Goddesses roots are African. :) http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/2006/01/ ... thena-and-the-modern-olympics/

http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/africa/102799/102799monicagame.html
http://faculty.pittstate.edu/~knichols/goddess.html

[Philosophia]

Try these links:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/classes/finALp.html
http://ipoaa.com/black_greeks.htm
http://www.womanworship.co.uk/documents/Athene.htm?menu=men
http://www.fjkluth.com/medusa.html

Herodotus and Diodorus are the two classical authorities who insist most strongly that Greece owed her rites, religion, and gods to Egypt and Ethiopia, i.e., Nile Valley civilization. Diodorus informs us that "the Ethiopians were the first to be taught to honor the gods and to hold sacrifices and festivals and processions...and other rites by which men honor the deity."Herodotus adds that "The names of nearly all the gods came to Greece from Egypt."
He further asserts, "I will never admit that the similar ceremonies performed in Greece and Egypt are the result of mere coincidence--had that been so, our rites would have been more Greek in character and less recent in origin."
Contrary to repeated assertions in Not Out of Africa, neither Diodorus nor Herodotus were uncritical Egyptophiles supinely accepting what the priests told them. Both of them were learned men, well-read and well-travelled. They cross-checked their information and consulted a variety of sources and informants, both Greek and Egyptian, then compared this information to their own personal observations.
Their conclusions were carefully arrived at on the strength of a basically sound method of inquiry. Herodotus, in particular, was careful to differentiate between information or opinions drawn from others, his own observations, and his own interpretations. He was careful not to vouch for everything he heard but to record it as told for verification by others. That he was wrong on a number of points is more than compensated for by the independent corroboration of most of his account by later authorities, even up to the present.
The veneration and emulation of Nilotic religious practices begins with Homer (8th century B.C.) who in three places in The Iliad and the Odyssey, refers to the tendency of Olympian deities to go to feast among the blameless Ethiopians. Moreover, several other mythographers cite the African or Libyan provenance of important Olympians, demigods, heroes, and other Hellenic mythotypes. Dionysus and Athene were both born in Libya (Africa).
Robert Graves says that the origins of Demeter are also to be looked for in Libya. Hercules, in one of his many guises, was said to have come from Egypt. A triad of Hellenic gods known to hail from Ethiopia were Helios, Eos, and Selene. Olympian deities not infrequently represented as Ethiopians--especially on the Kabeiric vases--were Aphrodite, Hera, and Artemis.
Aphrodite was sometimes called Melaenis, i.e., "the Black One."
Certain mythological dramatis personae were distinctly Ethiopian in origin or depiction: Memnon, Tithonus, Cepheus, Cassiopeia, Andromeda, Theia (also Melaena), Delphos, Aeetes, Medea, Circe, Proteus, Phaeton, Eurybates, Danaus, Aegyptus, Belus, and Cephalus. What is more, there was sometimes such a close identification between a Hellenic and an African god that the two became fused. Zeus, for example, was linked with the Nilotic Amon to such a degree that he became Zeus Ammon.
It defies all evidence and logic to insist that Greek religion was not markedly impacted by Nile Valley religion. Religiously, we have as much evidence for a Nile-to-Greece link as we do for a Greece-to-Rome link.
MYTHOLOGY
Zeus made a journey to the shores of the Ocean to feast among the blameless Ethiopians (for 12 days).
- Homer, The Iliad, Book 1, lines 423-424.
...when they saw her (Iris), all the winds rose up with invitations....But she refused and said: I'm bound onward, across the streams of Ocean, to the country of the Ethiopians; hekatombs they'll make for the gods; I must attend the feast. - Homer, The Iliad, Book 23, lines 205-207.
But now that god (Poseidon) had gone far off among the Ethiopians, most remote of men...in sunset lands and the lands of the rising sun, to be regaled by smoke of thighbones burning, haunches of rams and bulls, a hundred fold. He lingered delighted at the banquet table.
- Homer, the Odyssey, Book 1, lines 25-31.
[the Ethiopians] were the first to be taught to honor the gods and to hold sacrifices and festivals and processions and festivals and the other rites by which men honor the deity...
-Diodorus
Aelian does not overlook the fact that Ethiopia is the place where the gods bathe.
- Snowden, Blacks in Antquity, p. 147.
They also told me that the Egyptians first brought into use the names of the twelve gods, which the Greeks took over from them.


- Herodotus, Book 2
...it was not the Egyptians who took the name Heracles from the Greeks. The opposite is true: it was the Greeks who took it from the Egyptians...
- Herodotus.
Melampus ("black-footed")...brought into Greece a number of things that he had learned in Egypt, and amongst them was the worship of Dionysus (Osiris). I will never admit that the similar ceremonies performed in Greece and Egypt are the result of mere coincidence--had that been so, our rites would have been more Greek in character and less recent in origin.
- Herodotus.
The names of nearly all the gods came to Greece from Egypt. I know from the inquiries I have made that they came from abroad, and it seems likely that it was from Egypt.
- Herodotus.
And Eos bare to Tithonus brazen-crested Memnon, king of the Ethiopians....And to Cephalus she bare a splendid son, strong Phaeton...
- Hesoid, Theogony, lines 985-7.
...an image of pious, just Ethiopians became so imbedded in Greco-Roman tradition that echoes are heard throughout classical literature.
- Frank Snowden, Blacks in Antiquity, p. 144.
The fifty sons of Aegyptus were described as black....The Danaids described themselves as "black and smitten by the sun"....To King Pelasgus they have the appearance of Libyans, or inhabitants of the Nile.
- Snowden, p. 157.
Satyrs (sileni after Silenus) often resemble Negroes with respect to thickness of the lips and snubness of nose. - Snowden, p. 160.
Two of these [kabeiric] vases depict Odysseus and a Negro Circe...
- Snowden, p. 161.
Figures with Negroid traits appearing in other Kabeiric vases include Aphrodite, Hera, Cephalus...
- Snowden, p. 161.
The castration of Uranus is not necessarily metaphorical if some of the victors had originated in East Africa where, to this day, the Galla warriors carry a miniature sickle into battle to castrate their enemies.
- Robert Graves, The Greek Myths, vol.1, p. 38.
According to the Pelasgians, the goddess Athene was born beside Lake Tritonis in Libya...
- Graves, quoting Apollonius Rhodius, p. 44.
Plato identified Athene, patroness of Athens, with the Libyan goddess Neith...
- Graves, citing Timaeus.
Pottery finds suggest a Libyan immigration into Crete as early as 4,000 B.C.; and a large number of goddess-worshipping Libyan refugees from the Western Delta seem to have arrived there when Upper and Lower Egypt were forcibly united under the first dynasty...
- Graves, p. 45.
...elsewhere [Aphrodite] was called Melaenis ("black one")...[and]Scotia ("dark one")...
- Graves, p. 72.
Demeter is said to have reached Greece by way of Crete...But Demeter's origin is to be looked for in Libya.
- Graves, pp.95-96.
..the three Gorgons, dwellers in Libya...
- Graves, p. 127
When [Typhon] came rushing toward Olympus, the gods fled in terror to Egypt where they disguised themselves as animals: Zeus becoming a ram; Apollo a crow; Dionysus, a goat; Hera, a white cow; Artemis, a cat; Aphrodite, a fish; Ares, a boar; Hermes, an ibis, and so on.
- Graves, p. 134.
At Dodona...the priestesses who deliver the oracles have a different version of the story: two black doves, they say flew away from Thebes in Egypt, and one of them alighted at Dodona, and the other in Libya.
- Herodotus, p. 151
As to the bird being black [at Dodona], they merely signify by this that the woman was an Egyptian.
- Herodotus, p. 152
The Telchines (Rhodes) were Children of the Sea....They were...worshipped by an early matriarchal people of Greece...whom the patriarchal Hellenes persecuted...Their origin may have been East African.
- Graves, p. 189.
King Belus, who ruled Chemmis in Thebaid, was the son of Libya by Poseidon, and twin-brother of Agenor. His wife...daughter of Nilus, bore him the twins Aegyptus and Danaus and a third son Cepheus.
- Graves, citing Herodotus, Apollodorus, p. 200.
Danaus...had fifty daughters called the Danaids (born of Egyptian and Ethiopian mothers)....he built a ship for himself and his daughters...and sailed toward Greece together, by way of Rhodes....[He] became so powerful a ruler that all the Pelasgians of Greece called themselves Danaans.
- Graves, citing Hyginus, Apollodorus, Herodotus, Strabo, Diodorus, Pausanias, and Plutarch, p. 201-2.
The myth [of the Danaids] records the early arrival in greece of Helladic colonists from Palestine, by way of Rhodes, and their introduction of agriculture into the Peloponnese. It is claimed that they included emigrants from Libya and Ethiopia, which seems probable.
- Graves, p. 203.
Melampus, ("black foot") the Minyan, Cretheus's grandson...was the first mortal to be granted prophetic powers, the first to practice as a physician, the first to build temples to Dionysus in Greece, and the first to temper wine with water.
- Graves, citing Apollodorus and Athenaeus, p. 233.
Melampodes ("black feet") is a common Classical name for the Egyptians; and these stories of how Melampus understood what birds...were saying are likely to be of African origin...
- Graves.
Perseus paused for refreshments at Chemmis in Egypt...and then flew on. As he rounded the coast of Philistia...he caught sight of a naked woman chained to a sea-cliff, and instantly fell in love with her. This was Andromeda, daughter of Cepheus, the Ethiopian King of Joppa, and Cassiopeia....Perseus (who married Andromeda) founded Mycenae.
- Graves, citing Herodotus, Tzetzes, Strabo, Pliny, and Apollodorus.
[Minos] laid siege to Nisa, ruled by Nisus the Egyptian, who had a daughter named Scylla.
- Graves, p. 308.

From http://www.racematters.org/drcharlessfinchiii.htm

[Baron von Hoopla]

Its also believed that Medusa is based on an African legend, and that the snakes in her hair were dreadlocks mistaken at a distance.

[adazakura]

alot of greek and roman gods and beleifs came through babylon and sumeria and from other places they travelled.
trade = money = cities= countries and money = funds for military campaigns

[Theres]

Its also believed that Medusa is based on an African legend, and that the snakes in her hair were dreadlocks mistaken at a distance.

Athena and many other Goddesses roots are African.

probably not...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/046509838X/002-8117007-1440858?v=glance&n=283155

[Agaliha]

Theres, I did a search within that book and nothing turned up for Medusa.

Though there were 33 citings about "the Black Athena" -- but I don't know the context of it.

I believe Medusa was a goddess before she was changed into the "monster" we know today. If the Romans can just up and change Venus to Aphrodite, people can do anything. And I believe they have. Was Medusa African? Maybe. But I don't think that's important. I also don't think everything about Medusa being a goddess is just "revisionist crap".
There are theories that goddesses were just ancestral women that over time were elevated to divinity. And that some of the earliest "goddess" figurines were part of that-- ancestal worship.

Just my 2 cents. I really like Medusa (hence avatar)...

[Grimr]

Today i read that Athene originally came from North Africa and was a goddess of womens mysteries, is this true, as i didn't know that the Ancient Greeks went into Africa.

You must of read the book Black Athena Writes Back.


Ignore such foolishness.


These are the same people who are trying to deny the unique culture of the ancient Greeks.


These are the same people who says that the ancient Greeks stole all of their philosophical knowledge which to me is utterly nonsense.

Athena and many other Goddesses roots are African. :) http://www.africaresource.com/rasta/2006/01/ ... thena-and-the-modern-olympics/

http://www.worldtrek.org/odyssey/africa/102799/102799monicagame.html
http://faculty.pittstate.edu/~knichols/goddess.html

Lies.


If anything most of the Greek pantheon comes from the Nordic invaders ( The Dorians.) that they talked about in the old stories or the early Indo Europeans who's location of origin in culture is still in mystery. ( Though obviosly could not come from the South across the sea with the limited seafaring capabilities of the time.)


I will admit that ancient Egypt did affect many cultures in the Mediterranean , but the Greeks did not travel to ancient Egypt until later thus creating most of their own cultural identity.




http://www.shunya.net/Text/Herodotus/images/Greece.gif



Look at the map of Greece.

The most obvious place to get into ancient Greece would be from the North.

So it is obvious that the early Greeks were very isolated in ancient times since seafaring was primitive at best.

So it is my belief that the Archaic Greeks with the invading Dorians made their own belief structure with little foreign influence in ancient times of Archaic Greece.

[Grimr]

alot of greek and roman gods and beleifs came through babylon and sumeria and from other places they travelled.
trade = money = cities= countries and money = funds for military campaigns

That would of been pretty hard since Babylon and Sumeria were destroyed or displaced by Persia when the Greeks and Romans became fully mobile.

Theres, I did a search within that book and nothing turned up for Medusa.

Though there were 33 citings about "the Black Athena" -- but I don't know the context of it.

I believe Medusa was a goddess before she was changed into the "monster" we know today. If the Romans can just up and change Venus to Aphrodite, people can do anything. And I believe they have. Was Medusa African? Maybe. But I don't think that's important. I also don't think everything about Medusa being a goddess is just "revisionist crap".
There are theories that goddesses were just ancestral women that over time were elevated to divinity. And that some of the earliest "goddess" figurines were part of that-- ancestal worship.

Just my 2 cents. I really like Medusa (hence avatar)...


Black Athena is nothing more than a Afrocentric ideological book and many other racist groups like it that are somehow let to be heard on college campuses.

Infact there are many Professors and schools who constantly complain that they even be heard at all.

( I believe all racism including Afrocentricism to be wrong.)

These same people who write books like Black Athena are tied to ideologies like kill whitey and such.

I must be frank. I hope that I have not insulted anyone.

[Agaliha]

What about this?


North Africa is a relatively thin strip of land between the Sahara and the Mediterranean stretching from Egypt to the Atlantic. The history of the region is a mix of influences. The development of sea travel firmly brought the region into the Mediterranean world, especially during the classical period. In the first millennium AD the Sahara became an equally important area for trade as the camel caravans brought goods and people from the south. The region also has a small, but crucial land link to the Middle East and that area has also played a central role in the history of North Africa.
The expanse of the Libyan Desert cut Egypt off from the rest of North Africa. Egyptian boats, while well suited to the Nile, were not usable in the open Mediterranean. Moreover the small Egyptian merchant had far more prosperous destinations on Crete, Cyprus and the Levant.
Greeks from Europe and the Phoenicians from Asia also settled along the coast of Northern Africa. Both societies drew their prosperity from the sea and from ocean-born trade. They found only limited trading opportunities with the native inhabitants, and instead turned to colonization. The Greek trade was based mainly in the Aegean, Adriatic, Black, and Red Seas and they only established major cities in Cyrenaica, directly to the south of Greece. In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty.
The Phoenecians developed an even larger presence in North Africa with colonies from Tripoli to the Atlantic. One of the most important Phoenician cities was Carthage, which grew into one of the greatest powers in the region. At the height of its power, Carthage controlled the Western Mediterrenean and most of North Africa outside of Egypt. However, Rome, Carthage's major rival to the north, defeated it in a series of wars known as the Punic Wars, resulting in Carthage's destruction in 146 BC and the annexation of its empire by the Romans. In 30 BC, Roman Emperor Octavian conquered Egypt, officially annexing it to the Empire and, for the first time, unifying the North African coast under a single ruler.
Source: Wikipedia

And
As Greece progressed economically, its population grew beyond the capacity of its limited arable land (according to Mogens Herman Hansen, the population of ancient Greece increased by a factor larger than ten during the period from 800 BC to 350 BC, increasing from a population of 700,000 to a total estimated population of 8 to 10 million) [1]. From about 750 BC the Greeks began 250 years of expansion, settling colonies in all directions. To the east, the Aegean coast of Asia Minor was colonized first, followed by Cyprus and the coasts of Thrace, the Sea of Marmara and south coast of the Black Sea. Eventually Greek colonization reached as far north-east as present day Ukraine. To the west the coasts of Albania, Sicily and southern Italy were settled, followed by the south coast of France, Corsica, and even northeastern Spain. Greek colonies were also founded in Egypt and Libya. Modern Syracuse, Naples, Marseille and Istanbul had their beginnings as the Greek colonies Syracusa, Neapolis, Massilia and Byzantium. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#The_rise_of_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece#The_rise_of_Greece)


It's said Medusa was from N. Africa (Libya-- associated with Phoenicia). , from reading this is sounds like a possibility.
There was contact between Greece and N. Africa.There was trade. There was mingling of ideas and culture.
I watched a program recently about the Phoenicians and it talked about how they traveled all over, took on other cultures and spread them all.
I don't understand why people find it so hard to believe. ::sigh::

Chapter Seven: Athena (http://www.moonspeaker.ca/Athena/athena.html) talks about Athena.

[Grimr]

To Agaliha:



You forget early Archaic Greece or the dark ages giving Greece plenty of time to make it's own culture.

Also even the neolithic culture before that.

Ancient Greece did not become mobile through the whole Agean until during and after the Classical Age.

[Grimr]

It's said Medusa was from N. Africa (Libya-- associated with Phoenicia). , from reading this is sounds like a possibility.
There was contact between Greece and N. Africa.There was trade. There was mingling of ideas and culture.
I watched a program recently about the Phoenicians and it talked about how they traveled all over, took on other cultures and spread them all.
I don't understand why people find it so hard to believe. ::sigh::

Chapter Seven: Athena (http://www.moonspeaker.ca/Athena/athena.html) talks about Athena.




http://www.clevelandart.org/exhibcef/mg/illus/g02a.jpg


My Archaic Gorgon Terracota and other Terracotas,Inscriptions and Potteries would disagree with you.


Altar with Gorgon, Pegasus, and Chrysaor (about 500-475 BC)


500-475 B.C. long before Alexander and the rest of Greece was mobile to move in Northern Africa.

[Agaliha]

Yes, but taking Medusa-- when was the first mention of her in Greek writings? Anyone know?
I really really doubt she was there from the beginning (archaic) as a Gorgon/monster killed by the oh so great hero.
If anything she seems like a goddess from another land that represents or symbolises Greek culture and what it did.
There are sites that talk about it. ::shrug::
Believe what you want, I suppose we will agree to disagree.

Patriarchy began in the bronze and iron age of first millennia Greece. <snip>
Soon the holy image of the Gorgon Medusa as an ancient symbol of female power and wisdom became totally unacceptable. By the 6th c. BC her rites were disrupted, her sanctuaries invaded, the sacred groves were cut down, her priestesses were violated and her image defiled. Her images, (as well as women), are mastered and domesticated. Her mask was used on elaborate Etruscan lantern fixtures and stoves, probably for her relation to alchemical fire. Although the mask was widely used by country-folk, her female wisdom, natural forces, powers of creativity, destruction and regeneration were demonized and made evil. She was made into a horrid, ugly monster, (most monsters were female or born of the Earth). Her most popular image became that of her defeat in the Athenian myth of Perseus.
In Archaic art the moment in the story most often depicted is the chase after the beheading, when Perseus flees with the severed head pursued by the Medusas' Gorgon sisters. In 550-450 BC, painted mainly in early and proto-attic black figure vases was the image of the hero sneaking up on his victim while she sleeps or cutting her throat while the gods look on. On these she is represented as a hideous snaky monster. (vase image of Perseus beheading Medusa while Hermes looks on (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?arch=1990.14.0127&type=vase)and its description (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgibin/vaseindex?entry=London+B+471&word=med), also,a description of the slaying on another vase (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vaseindex?entry=Louvre+E+874&word=meu)) At his time the remaining rituals of Medusa were allowed only for military function and her image was reserved for armor, on the breat plate or on their shield. (description of her image on a sacred sheild (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=paus.+5.10.4&word=medusa))




Pausanias 1.14.6 Above the Cerameicus and the portico called the King's Portico is a temple of Hephaestus. I was not surprised that by it stands a statue of Athena, because I knew the story about Erichthonius. But when I saw that the statue of Athena had blue eyes I found out that the legend about them is Libyan. For the Libyans have a saying that the Goddess is the daughter of Poseidon and Lake Tritonis, and for this reason has blue eyes like Poseidon.
http://www.hfac.uh.edu/MCL/Classics/Athena/Texts_Athena.html

[Grimr]

Patriarchy began in the bronze and iron age of first millennia Greece. <snip>
Soon the holy image of the Gorgon Medusa as an ancient symbol of female power and wisdom became totally unacceptable. By the 6th c. BC her rites were disrupted, her sanctuaries invaded, the sacred groves were cut down, her priestesses were violated and her image defiled. Her images, (as well as women), are mastered and domesticated. Her mask was used on elaborate Etruscan lantern fixtures and stoves, probably for her relation to alchemical fire. Although the mask was widely used by country-folk, her female wisdom, natural forces, powers of creativity, destruction and regeneration were demonized and made evil. She was made into a horrid, ugly monster, (most monsters were female or born of the Earth). Her most popular image became that of her defeat in the Athenian myth of Perseus.
In Archaic art the moment in the story most often depicted is the chase after the beheading, when Perseus flees with the severed head pursued by the Medusas' Gorgon sisters. In 550-450 BC, painted mainly in early and proto-attic black figure vases was the image of the hero sneaking up on his victim while she sleeps or cutting her throat while the gods look on. On these she is represented as a hideous snaky monster. (vase image of Perseus beheading Medusa while Hermes looks on (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/image?arch=1990.14.0127&type=vase)and its description (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgibin/vaseindex?entry=London+B+471&word=med), also,a description of the slaying on another vase (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/vaseindex?entry=Louvre+E+874&word=meu)) At his time the remaining rituals of Medusa were allowed only for military function and her image was reserved for armor, on the breat plate or on their shield. (description of her image on a sacred sheild (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/text?lookup=paus.+5.10.4&word=medusa))


One problem with that by that age of 600-500 B.C. The Dorians were long well there.

Thus there would be no Gorgon Goddess taking precedence over Zeus.


The Dorians were a male dominated culture.

http://www.answers.com/topic/dorians





Dorians, people of ancient Greece. Their name was mythologically derived from Dorus, son of Hellen (http://www.answers.com/topic/hellen). Originating in the northwestern mountainous region of Epirus and SW Macedonia, they migrated through central Greece and into the Peloponnesus probably between 1100 and 950 B.C., defeating and displacing the Achaeans. They rapidly extended their influence to Crete and established colonies in Italy, Sicily, and Asia Minor. Sparta and Crete are generally considered as having had the most typical form of Dorian rule—the invaders maintained their separate societies and subjected and enslaved the conquered population. The arrival of the Dorians marked the disruption of the earlier Greek culture and the beginning of a period of decline. Although the cultural level of the Dorians was below that of the Achaeans, the Dorians did contribute to the culture of Greece, e.g., in drama, poetry, sculpture, and especially in the huge stone buildings that marked the beginning of the Doric style of architecture.


Try these links:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/classes/finALp.html
http://ipoaa.com/black_greeks.htm
http://www.womanworship.co.uk/documents/Athene.htm?menu=men
http://www.fjkluth.com/medusa.html


From http://www.racematters.org/drcharlessfinchiii.htm


Herodotus and Diodorus long came after ancient Greece.

Like modern tourists who were very overly romanticized by ancient Egypt.

Plutarch and the rest of those writers seem to be mainly Roman.

The Rome they lived in was way beyond the conquest of ancient Greece.

Also the ancient Ethiopians in regards of the Gods were a people who were regarded to live on the limits of the earth metaphorically speaking and so when they said the Gods went to reside among the Ethiopians they meant the Gods resided at the ends of the earth at times.



Also ancient Egypt Fell to Nubians and Nubian like cultures in the last period before it was conquered by ancient Greece or Rome.

The original ancient Egyptians were Mesopotamian.

Means nothing.

[Agaliha]

It never stated she took precedence over Zeus. She was never superior to him. All it stated was that she represent female wisdom and power and later her image was destroyed.
Plenty of dieties were changed, destroyed and forgotten in history.
I believe they all created by humanity. Every one of them. I think the Greeks or whoever changed her to suit their needs at the time (destroying her image).
I don't even know why I'm spending all this time arguring about this. You don't believe it. I do. End of story.

[Grimr]

It never stated she took precedence over Zeus. She was never suprior to him. All it stated was that she represent female wisdom and power and later her image was destroyed.
Plenty of dieties were changed, destroyed and forgotten in history.
I believe they all created by humanity. Every one of them. I think the Greeks or whoever changed her to suit their needs at the time.


There are pictures of gorgons on shields decorated on pottery that date to Archaic Greece.

I am not trying to be mean.

I just don't understand modern revisionism on the subject that makes no sense.



I don't even know why I'm spending all this time arguring about this. You don't believe it. I do. End of story


Again I am not trying to be mean , but you can't rewrite history to fit your own views.

[Philosophia]

Herodotus and Diodorus long came after ancient Greece.

Herodotus came in 484 BC
Diodorus came in 90 BC

Like modern tourists who were very overly romanticized by ancient Egypt.

Your belief...

Plutarch and the rest of those writers seem to be mainly Roman.

Mestrius Plutarchus was a Greek historian, not Roman.

The Rome they lived in was way beyond the conquest of ancient Greece.

He was Greek.

Also the ancient Ethiopians in regards of the Gods were a people who were regarded to live on the limits of the earth metaphorically speaking and so when they said the Gods went to reside among the Ethiopians they meant the Gods resided at the ends of the earth at times.

Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ethiopia

Also ancient Egypt Fell to Nubians and Nubian like cultures in the last period before it was conquered by ancient Greece or Rome.

Evidence?

The original ancient Egyptians were Mesopotamian.

Also this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt

Means nothing.

Your opinion only.

[Agaliha]

You're not being mean. I'm just tired and not in the mood to go back in forth when this is going no where.

View it as modern revisionism, I don't care.
I've seen sites claiming modern Paganism is nothing but revisionism. ::shrug::
What and who is it harming to belive any of this? No one. So why not let it be?

ETA: I'm not rewriting history to fit my views. I don't worship Medusa, I don't honor her. I'm a flippin atheist when it comes to the known gods. I have no needs to cause me to "rewrite history"
when I first started reading about her I didn't see her as a goddess, I read and read and read it made sense.
Does this mean anything to me-- her being a goddess in my view? No. Means nothing. I don't honor, worship, pray to or experience any gods.
Do I like her? Yes. Do I find her interesting? Yes. Do I like what she used to symbolize? Yes.
All gods are created in my opinion, all known gods aren't there.
Accuse me of making this crap up, revising history to meet needs that I don't have. Sure. Whatever.

[Grimr]

Moreover the small Egyptian merchant had far more prosperous destinations on Crete, Cyprus and the Levant.
Greeks from Europe and the Phoenicians from Asia also settled along the coast of Northern Africa. Both societies drew their prosperity from the sea and from ocean-born trade. They found only limited trading opportunities with the native inhabitants, and instead turned to colonization. The Greek trade was based mainly in the Aegean, Adriatic, Black, and Red Seas and they only established major cities in Cyrenaica, directly to the south of Greece. In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty.
The Phoenecians developed an even larger presence in North Africa with colonies from Tripoli to the Atlantic. One of the most important Phoenician cities was Carthage, which grew into one of the greatest powers in the region. At the height of its power, Carthage controlled the Western Mediterrenean and most of North Africa outside of Egypt. However, Rome, Carthage's major rival to the north, defeated it in a series of wars known as the Punic Wars, resulting in Carthage's destruction in 146 BC and the annexation of its empire by the Romans. In 30 BC, Roman Emperor Octavian conquered Egypt, officially annexing it to the Empire and, for the first time, unifying the North African coast under a single ruler.
Source: Wikipedia


Alexanders Greece did not take precedence until well after Archaic,Dark Ages and Classical Greece.

Carthage did not take height until later on as well.

Infact Carthage did not take height until a little after Alexanders Greece.

The Pheonicians were great ancient sailors , but they did not go that much beyond the Mediterranean and if they did it was rare.


The cities on Northern Africa that are Greek I am willing to bet did not happen until the Classical age.

The Classical age happened right after Archaic Greece , but slightly before the Dark Ages of ancient Greece.

[Agaliha]

Then dispute that all with Wikipedia, not me.
Here's the link: History of North Africa - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0LaSuuq4KREfV8BZn5XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB2cXVjNTM5BGNvbG8DdwRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMQRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZAM-/SIG=1287c9riu/EXP=1151742506/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_North_Africa)
They have an edit section to discuss things of that nature.

[Grimr]

Herodotus came in 484 BC
Diodorus came in 90 BC



Your belief...



Mestrius Plutarchus was a Greek historian, not Roman.



He was Greek.



Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ethiopia



Evidence?



Also this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt



Your opinion only.





Diodorus came in 90 BC


A Roman.



Diodorus Siculus.



Herodotus came in 484 BC

I will post a long essay of Herodotus tomorrow.



Mestrius Plutarchus was a Greek historian, not Roman.

A Greek living in conquered Greece under Roman law.



He was Greek.

Points up.


Read this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Ethiopia

I will read this tomorrow.




Evidence?

http://www.answers.com/topic/third-intermediate-period-of-egypt



Third Intermediate Period of Egypt
The Third Intermediate Period refers to the time in Ancient Egypt (http://www.answers.com/topic/ancient-egypt) from the death of Pharaoh (http://www.answers.com/topic/pharaoh) Ramesses XI (http://www.answers.com/topic/ramesses-xi) in 1070 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/1070s-bc) to the foundation of the Twenty-Sixth Dynasty (http://www.answers.com/topic/twenty-sixth-dynasty-of-egypt) by Psamtik I (http://www.answers.com/topic/psammetichus-i) in 664 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/660s-bc), following the expulsion of the Nubian (http://www.answers.com/topic/nubia) rulers of the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty (http://www.answers.com/topic/twenty-fifth-dynasty-of-egypt).




This period is characterised by the country's fracturing kingship. Even in Ramesses's day, his dynasty (the Twentieth) was losing its grip on power in the city of Thebes (http://www.answers.com/topic/thebes-egypt), whose priests were becoming increasingly powerful. After his death, his successor Smendes I (http://www.answers.com/topic/smendes) ruled from the city of Tanis (http://www.answers.com/topic/tanis-egypt), and High Priests of Amun at Thebes (http://www.answers.com/topic/high-priests-of-amun-at-thebes) ruling the south of the country. In fact this division is less significant than it seems since both priests and pharaohs came from the same family.
The country was firmly reunited by the Twenty-Second Dynasty founded by Shoshenq I (http://www.answers.com/topic/shoshenq-i) in 945 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/940s-bc) (or 943 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/940s-bc)), whom many, especially those adhering to the validity of (http://www.answers.com/topic/the-bible-and-history) the Bible (http://www.answers.com/topic/bible), think was descended from Meshwesh (http://www.answers.com/topic/meshwesh) immigrants, while others, particularly Nubiologists (those researching Nubia), have proposed that he was a Nubian (http://www.answers.com/topic/nubia). This brought stability to the country for well over a century, but after the reign of Osorkon II (http://www.answers.com/topic/osorkon-ii), particularly, the country had effectively splintered into two states with Shoshenq III (http://www.answers.com/topic/shoshenq-iii) of the Twenty-Second Dynasty controlling Lower Egypt by 818 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/810s-bc) while Takelot II (http://www.answers.com/topic/takelot-ii) and his son Osorkon B(the future Osorkon III (http://www.answers.com/topic/osorkon-iii)) ruled Middle and Upper Egypt. In Thebes, a civil war engulfed the city between the forces of Pedubast (http://www.answers.com/topic/pedubast-i), who had proclaimed himself Pharaoh versus the existing line of Takelot II/Osorkon B. These two factions squabbled consistently and the conflict was only resolved in Year 39 of Shoshenq III when Osorkon B comprehensively defeated his enemies. He proceeded to found the Upper Egyptian Libyan Dynasty of Osorkon III (http://www.answers.com/topic/osorkon-iii) – Takelot III (http://www.answers.com/topic/takelot-iii) – Rudamun, but this kingdom quickly fragmented after Rudamun's death with the rise of local city states under kings such Peftjaubast of Herakleopolis (http://www.answers.com/topic/herakleopolis-magna), Nimlot of Hermopolis (http://www.answers.com/topic/hermopolis-magna), and Ini (http://www.answers.com/topic/ini-3) at Thebes.
The Nubian (http://www.answers.com/topic/nubians) kingdom to the south took full advantage of this division and political instability. Prior to Piye (http://www.answers.com/topic/piye)'s Year 20 campaign into Egypt, the previous Nubian ruler – Kashta (http://www.answers.com/topic/kashta) – had already extended his kingdom's influence over into Thebes when he compelled Shepenupet, the serving Divine Adoratice of Amun and Takelot III's sister, to adopt his own daughter Amenirdis, to be her successor. Then, 20 years later, around 732 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/730s-bc) his successor, Piye (http://www.answers.com/topic/piye), marched North and defeated the combined might of several native Egyptian rulers such as Peftjaubast, Osorkon IV of Tanis, and Tefnakht of Sais. Piye established the Twenty-Fifth Dynasty (http://www.answers.com/topic/twenty-fifth-dynasty-of-egypt) and appinted the defeated rulers as his provincial governors. He was succeeded first by his brother, Shabaka (http://www.answers.com/topic/shabaka), and then by his two sons Shebitku (http://www.answers.com/topic/shebitku) and Taharqa (http://www.answers.com/topic/taharka).
The international prestige of Egypt had declined considerably by this time. The country's international allies had fallen firmly into the sphere of influence of Assyria (http://www.answers.com/topic/assyria) and from about 700 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/700s-bc) the question became when, not if, there would be war between the 2 states. Taharqa (http://www.answers.com/topic/taharka)'s reign and that of his successor, (his cousin) Tanutamun (http://www.answers.com/topic/tantamani), were filled with constant conflict with the Assyrians against whom there were numerous victories, but ultimately Thebes was occupied and Memphis (http://www.answers.com/topic/memphis-egypt) sacked. The dynasty ended with its rulers stuck in the relative backwater of the city of Napata (http://www.answers.com/topic/napata).
Instead Egypt was ruled (from 664 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/660s-bc), a full eight years prior to Tanutamun's death) by the Twenty-Sixth Dynasty, client kings established by the Assyrians. Psamtik I (http://www.answers.com/topic/psammetichus-i) was the first to be recognised by them as the King of the whole of Egypt, and he brought increased stability to the country in a 54 year reign from the city of Sais (http://www.answers.com/topic/sais-egypt). Four successive Saite kings continued guiding Egypt into another period of unparalled peace and prosperity from 610-526 BC. Unfortunately for his dynasty, a new power was growing in the Near East – Persia. Pharaoh Psamtik III (http://www.answers.com/topic/psammetichus-iii) had succeeded his father Ahmose II (http://www.answers.com/topic/amasis-ii) scarcely a year in 526 BC (http://www.answers.com/topic/520s-bc) before he had to face the might of Persia at Pelusium (http://www.answers.com/topic/pelusium). The Persians had already taken Babylon (http://www.answers.com/topic/babylon) and Egypt was no match. Psamtik was defeated and briefly escaped to Memphis, but ultimately he was imprisoned and executed at Susa, capital of the Persian king Cambyses (http://www.answers.com/topic/cambyses), who now assumed the formal title of Pharaoh.
Historiography

The historiography of this period is disputed for a variety of reasons. Firstly there is a dispute about the utility of a very artificial term that covers an extremely long and complicated period of Egyptian history. The Third Intermediate period includes long periods of stability as well as chronic instability and civil conflict: its very name rather clouds this fact. Secondly there are significant problems of chronology stemming from several areas: first, there are the difficulties in dating common to all of Egyptian chronology (http://www.answers.com/topic/egyptian-chronology) but these are compounded due to synchronsyms with Biblical Archaeology that also contain heavily disputed dates. Finally, some Egyptologists and biblical scholars, such as Kenneth Kitchen (http://www.answers.com/topic/kenneth-kitchen), or David Rohl (http://www.answers.com/topic/david-rohl) have novel or controversial theories about the family relationships of the dynasties comprising the period.



( Unlike the First period of ancient Egypt started by Mesopotamian Egyptians.)




Also this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egypt


Land Of Kemit means the nile.

Pharoah Ramesses had red hair and many of the original artistic depictions of early Egyptians were always Mesopotamian looking.

[Protagonist]

It's quite likely that the Greeks did draw from the religions of other cultures in the area, in fact, it's almost certain. However, to go from that to saying "Athene was really African" is a bit of a stretch. By the time Athene was, well, Athene, she was mostly what we'd call Greek in character. Saying that Athene sprung fully-formed from Africa is a bit like saying Mary was actually an Egyptian goddess, because her myths were influenced by the Egyptian stories of Isis. Similarly, it's possible that Ganymede is related to early Egyptian river deities, but the Ganymede that the Greeks portrey isn't really Egyptian - they made him their own. I'll stop now before a bad pun presents itself.

Oh, wait. I think I already made a bad pun. Damn it.

[Agaliha]

Alexanders Greece did not take precedence until well after Archaic,Dark Ages and Classical Greece.

Wikipedia Article: "In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty."

Found this:

332 B.C.

? January: submission of Byblos and Sidon.
Siege of Tyre begun.
? June: second peace-offer by Darius refused.
July 29: fall of Tyre.
Sept.-Oct.: Gaza captured.
? November 14: Alexander crowned as Pharaoh at Memphis.331 B.C.

Early spring: visit to the Oracle of Ammon at Siwah.
? April 7-8: foundation of Alexanderia.
Alexander returns to Tyre.
July-August: Alexander reaches Thapsacus on Euphrates; Darius moves his main forces from Babylon.
September 18: Alexander crosses the Tigris.
Darius' final peace-offer rejected.
Sept. 30 or Oct. 1: Battle of Gaugamela.
Macedonians advance from Arbela on Babylon, which falls in mid-October.
Revolt of Agis defeated at Megalopolis.
Early December: Alexander occupies Susa unopposed.
Alexander forces Susian Gates.http://faq.macedonia.org/history/alex.timeline.html

Seems that the date in the article was correct.


Carthage did not take height until later on as well.
Infact Carthage did not take height until a little after Alexanders Greece.


330-323 BC -- City of Carthage at largest extent -- population 200,000.
http://www.geocities.com/carrajena/timeline.html

Seems correct again. And within Alexander's time.

The Pheonicians were great ancient sailors , but they did not go that much beyond the Mediterranean and if they did it was rare.

Northen Africa is right on the Mediterranean. And there is documentation of them traveling all over.


From elsewhere they got many other materials, perhaps the most important being tin and silver from Spain and possibly even Cornwall on Great Britain, that together with copper (from Cyprus) was used to make bronze. Trade routes from Asia converged on the Phoenician coast as well, enabling the Phoenicians to govern trade between Mesopotamia on the one side, and Egypt and Arabia on the other.
<snip>
The Phoenicians established commercial outposts throughout the Mediterranean, the most strategically important ones being Carthage in North Africa, and directly across the narrow straits in Sicily — carefully selected with the design of monopolizing the Mediterranean trade beyond that point and keeping their rivals from passing through. Other colonies were planted in Cyprus, Corsica, Sardinia, the Iberian Peninsula, and elsewhere.
<snip>
Phoenician ships used to ply the coast of southern Spain and along the coast of present-day Portugal. The fishermen of Nazaré and Aveiro in Portugal are traditionally of Phoenician descent.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia




It's quite likely that the Greeks did draw from the religions of other cultures in the area, in fact, it's almost certain. However, to go from that to saying "Athene was really African" is a bit of a stretch. By the time Athene was, well, Athene, she was mostly what we'd call Greek in character. Saying that Athene sprung fully-formed from Africa is a bit like saying Mary was actually an Egyptian goddess, because her myths were influenced by the Egyptian stories of Isis. Similarly, it's possible that Ganymede is related to early Egyptian river deities, but the Ganymede that the Greeks portrey isn't really Egyptian - they made him their own. I'll stop now before a bad pun presents itself.
Oh, wait. I think I already made a bad pun. Damn it.

That's what I've been saying. I never claimed Anthena or Medusa were "sprung fully-formed from Africa" (to quote you), all I was saying that there is a good chance that there was an African link to them. Perhaps the beginnings of them came from Africa or perhaps they were already in Greece and the African cultures took them and created their own versions, making Medusa a goddess for example while on Greece she wasn't.
My whole point was that there is a possibility of linkage with N. Africa.

[Grimr]

Wikipedia Article: "In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty."

Found this:

332 B.C.

? January: submission of Byblos and Sidon.
Siege of Tyre begun.
? June: second peace-offer by Darius refused.
July 29: fall of Tyre.
Sept.-Oct.: Gaza captured.
? November 14: Alexander crowned as Pharaoh at Memphis.331 B.C.

Early spring: visit to the Oracle of Ammon at Siwah.
? April 7-8: foundation of Alexanderia.
Alexander returns to Tyre.
July-August: Alexander reaches Thapsacus on Euphrates; Darius moves his main forces from Babylon.
September 18: Alexander crosses the Tigris.
Darius' final peace-offer rejected.
Sept. 30 or Oct. 1: Battle of Gaugamela.
Macedonians advance from Arbela on Babylon, which falls in mid-October.
Revolt of Agis defeated at Megalopolis.
Early December: Alexander occupies Susa unopposed.
Alexander forces Susian Gates.http://faq.macedonia.org/history/alex.timeline.html

Seems that the date in the article was correct.



330-323 BC -- City of Carthage at largest extent -- population 200,000.
http://www.geocities.com/carrajena/timeline.html

Seems correct again. And within Alexander's time.



Northen Africa is right on the Mediterranean. And there is documentation of them traveling all over.







That's what I've been saying. I never claimed Anthena or Medusa were "sprung fully-formed from Africa" (to quote you), all I was saying that there is a good chance that there was an African link to them. Perhaps the beginnings of them came from Africa or perhaps they were already in Greece and the African cultures took them and created their own versions, making Medusa a goddess for example while on Greece she wasn't.
My whole point was that there is a possibility of linkage with N. Africa.







Found this:


Wikipedia Article: "In 332 BC, Alexander the Great conquered Egypt and for the next three centuries it was ruled by the Greek Ptolemaic dynasty."

332 B.C.

? January: submission of Byblos and Sidon.
Siege of Tyre begun.
? June: second peace-offer by Darius refused.
July 29: fall of Tyre.
Sept.-Oct.: Gaza captured.
? November 14: Alexander crowned as Pharaoh at Memphis.331 B.C.

Early spring: visit to the Oracle of Ammon at Siwah.
? April 7-8: foundation of Alexanderia.
Alexander returns to Tyre.
July-August: Alexander reaches Thapsacus on Euphrates; Darius moves his main forces from Babylon.
September 18: Alexander crosses the Tigris.
Darius' final peace-offer rejected.
Sept. 30 or Oct. 1: Battle of Gaugamela.
Macedonians advance from Arbela on Babylon, which falls in mid-October.
Revolt of Agis defeated at Megalopolis.
Early December: Alexander occupies Susa unopposed.
Alexander forces Susian Gates.http://faq.macedonia.org/history/alex.timeline.html

Seems that the date in the article was correct.


Archaic Greece. 9-6 B.C. Way Before 4 or 3 B.C.

All those other dates and events way after.

[Philosophia]

A Roman.

No, a Greek, born in Sicily.

I will post a long essay of Herodotus tomorrow.

Good for you.

A Greek living in conquered Greece under Roman law.

Still a Greek.

Points up.

Points up, too.

I will read this tomorrow.

Good.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia
Early History
In 2300 BC, Nubia was first mentioned in Old Kingdom Egyptian accounts of trade missions. From Aswan, right above the First Cataract, southern limit of Egyptian control at the time, Egyptians imported gold, incense, ebony, ivory, slaves, and exotic animals from tropical Africa through Nubia. As trade between Egypt and Nubia increased so did wealth and stability. By the Egyptian 6th dynasty, Nubia was divided into a series of small kingdoms. There is debate over whether these C-Group peoples, who flourished from c. 2240 BC to c. 2150 BC, were another internal evolution or invaders. There are definite similarities between the pottery of A-Group and C-Group, so it may be a return of the ousted Group-As, or an internal revival of lost arts. At this time, the Sahara Desert was becoming too arid to support human beings, and it is possible that there was a sudden influx of Saharan nomads. C-Group pottery is characterized by all-over incised geometric lines with white infill and impressed imitations of basketry.
During the Egyptian Middle Kingdom (c. 2040-1640 BC), Egypt began expanding into Nubia to gain more control over the trade routes in Northern Nubia and to gain direct access to trade with Southern Nubia. They erected a chain of forts down the Nile below the Second Cataract. These garrisons seemed to have peaceful relations with the local Nubian people but little interaction during the period.
A contemporaneous but distinct culture from the C-Group was the Pan Grave culture, so called because of their shallow graves. The Pan Graves are associated with the East bank of the Nile, but the Pan Graves and C-Group definitely interacted. Their pottery is characterized by incised lines of a more limited character than those of the C-Group, generally having interspersed undecorated spaces within the geometric scheme.
From the C-Group culture, the first kingdom to unify much of the region arose, the Kingdom of Kerma, named for its presumed capital at Kerma, one of the earliest urban centers in tropical Africa. By 1750 BC, the kings of Kerma were powerful enough to organize the labor for monumental walls and structures of mud brick, and had rich tombs with possessions for the afterlife and large human sacrifices. The craftsmen were skilled in metalworking and their pottery surpassed in skill that of Egypt. When Egyptian power revived under the New Kingdom (c.1532-1070 BC) they began to expand further southwards. Destroying the kingdom and capital of Kerma they expanded to the Forth Cataract. By the end of the reign of Thutmose I in 1520 BC, all of northern Nubia had been annexed. They built a new administrative center at Napata, and used the area to produce gold which made Egypt the prime source of gold in the Middle East.
Kush
The Nubia region today.When the Egyptians pulled out, they left a lasting legacy that was merged with indigenous customs forming the kingdom of Kush. Kush adopted many Egyptian practices such as their religion and the practice of building pyramids. The kingdom of Kush survived longer than that of Egypt, even invading and controlling Egypt itself for a period (the Kushite dynasty) in the 8th century BC. Kush was never annexed by the Romans. The Kushites did trade with the Romans, and were also a source of mercenaries.
During this time, the different parts of the region divided into smaller groups with individual leaders, or generals, each commanding small armies of mercenaries. They fought for control of what is now Nubia and its surrounding territories, leaving the entire region weak and vulnerable to attack.
At some point, Kush was conquered by the Noba people, from which the name Nubia may derive (another possibility is that it comes from Nub, the Egyptian word for gold). From then on, the Romans referred to the area as the Nobatae. Indeed, recent studies in population genetics suggest that there was a south-north gene flow through the Nile Valley. [1] Similarly, linguistic evidence suggests that the Nubians from the Nile Valley originally came from the south or southwest. Historical comparative research into the Nubian language group has indicated that the Nile-Nubian languages must have split off from the Nubian languages still spoken in the Nuba Mountains in Kordofan, Sudan, at least 2500 years ago. [2]

( Unlike the First period of ancient Egypt started by Mesopotamian Egyptians.)

Proof?

[Grimr]

Before I go to bed I just want to state my absolute surprise how historical innacurate revisionism has tooken hold of the academic world.

I knew it was a problem , but I had no idea it was this bad.

I mean no offence , but I have to state my peace.

Goodnight.

[Agaliha]

Also ancient Egypt Fell to Nubians and Nubian like cultures in the last period before it was conquered by ancient Greece or Rome.

1075-715 BC 3rd Intermediate Period
(21st-25th Dynasties) Disunity and Libyan settlement in Egypt
Nubians conquer Egypt (late 8th century)

715-332 BC Late Period
(20th-30th Dynasties,
2nd Persian Period) Egypt conquered briefly by Assyrians
Cultural revival under kings from Sais
Persian conquest of Egypt (525 BC)
Egypt independent again (404-343 BC)

332 BC-395 AD Greco-Roman Period
(Macedonians, Ptolemies,
and Romans)
Alexander the Great occupies Egypt
Alexander's general, Ptolemy, becomes king and founds a dynasty
The Rosetta Stone is carved (196 BC)
Cleopatra VII reigns (51-30 BC)
Egypt becomes a province of the Roman Empire (30 BC)

BBC: History: Ancient Egypt Timeline (http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/egyptians/timeline.shtml) (I think they know what they're talking about)

According to this and many timelines Egypt was conquered by Nubians, then Persians, then Assyrians and then independent ALL before Alexander came. It's incorrect to say that they were conquered by Nubians in the last period before Alexander as there was obviously more conquerering and another period in between.


Why accuse everything of being revisionism just because it doesn't fit with what you read or know? Are you warping history for you're view? I don't have any motive for it, but do you?
Is history perfect? No. It's not. But there are things we know-- Dates or conquering for example.
I can keep finding facts and sites about this, if you link. There's more out there.

[Grimr]

No, a Greek, born in Sicily.



Good for you.



Still a Greek.



Points up, too.



Good.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia




Proof?


You are such a revisionist.


Also Diodorus and Plutarch may of been Greek , but they were Roman citizens.

They came way after ancient Greece.

[Philosophia]

Land Of Kemit means the nile.

"The land of Kemit, ‘the Black Land’ – later called Aigyptos (‘Egypt’) by the Greeks – was, as Herodotus rightly observed, the gift of the Nile."
- http://www.gerald-massey.org.uk/Massey/cmc_nile_genesis.htm

Pharoah Ramesses had red hair and many of the original artistic depictions of early Egyptians were always Mesopotamian looking.

Thats your reasoning? Anymore?

You are such a revisionist.

Tsk, tsk...I'm disappointed. So I'm a revisionist and you're not? Typical response from you.

Also Diodorus and Plutarch may of been Greek , but they were Roman citizens.

They were Greek.

They came way after ancient Greece.

But it doesn't make them any less Greek.

Before I go to bed I just want to state my absolute surprise how historical innacurate revisionism has tooken hold of the academic world.
I knew it was a problem , but I had no idea it was this bad.
I mean no offence , but I have to state my peace.
Goodnight.

:lol: You mean no offense, yet you call people "revisionists" because they can provide evidence and you can't.
Is this your style of debating?

[Agaliha]

Originally Posted by Dracon
Land Of Kemit means the nile.


Nope Kemet reveres to the "Black Land" of Egypt that included the Nile. Deshret was the "Red Land"-- the desert.

It does not mean "The Nile" being and including are different.


1) What does "Kemet" mean?
"Kemet" (keh-MET) is the term ancient Egyptians used as the official name of their country. (Sometimes they also called it Ta-mery, or "beloved land.") Kemet translates as "Black Land", in reference to the fertile banks and fields surrounding the Nile (black from the soil). In contrast, "deshret" is the term for the "Red Land" or the desert (a modern term derived from "deshret") that surrounds the fertile "kemet". By using the term Kemet instead of Egypt, we refer to the country by the name its own people called it (Egypt is an English form of the Greek name for this land, Aegyptos, itself derived from Coptic hi(t)-ka(u)-ptah, "the house/temple of the ka of Ptah").
http://www.kemet.org/terms_list.html#1



Pharoah Ramesses had red hair and many of the original artistic depictions of early Egyptians were always Mesopotamian looking.


Red hair is not common in Egypt, it's true, but what's your point? Around his time there were other ethnicities and races in Egypt. Mingling is to be expected.


Unlike the First period of ancient Egypt started by Mesopotamian Egyptians.


(will get info)



Also Diodorus and Plutarch may of been Greek , but they were Roman citizens.


So someone who is born in Kenya to African parents and is African genetically say moves to America and has citizenship-- does that make them any less African? No it doesn't.
Being a Roman citizen doesn't strip them of their Greek-ness.

Diodorus Siculus
Ancient Greek Historian
The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus.
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/diodorus.html

Diodorus a Greek historian who lived from 80-20 BCE
Amazon.com: Diodorus Siculus (Library of History Ser. Books XVIII-XIX/No. L377): Books: Diodorus Siculus (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuues6qREGX4As3JXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTB2bGViN2ZsBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDNARzZWMDc3IEdnRpZAM-/SIG=12nj7kpoj/EXP=1151745068/**http%3a//www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0674994159%3fv=glance)

Mestrius Plutarchus (c. 46- 127) was a Greek historian, biographer, and essayist


Want more sources? I guess all of history is wrong, right?

[Agaliha]

Archaic Greece. 9-6 B.C.


The archaic period in Greece is the period during which the ancient Greekcity-states developed, and is normally taken to cover roughly the 9th century to the 6th centuryBCE.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaic_Greece


You have to remember the 9th Centuy doesn't start with the 900s, but the 800s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9th_century_BC) and the 6th century doesn't start with the 600s, but the 500s (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6th_century_BC)

So 9th Century dates are written as 80# BC and 6th century dates are written as 50# BC.

Writing it as "9-6 BC" gives the impression of the 10th and 7th centuries. If you were meaning 800-500s writing it as the 9th and 5th centuries would have made it clearer or as 800-500 BC.
Hence confusion. I don't know which one you were intending though. Honestly, I don't really care.

[_Banbha_]

You must of read the book Black Athena Writes Back.

Ignore such foolishness.

These are the same people who are trying to deny the unique culture of the ancient Greeks.

These are the same people who says that the ancient Greeks stole all of their philosophical knowledge which to me is utterly nonsense.Actually, I am not a proponent of Afrocenterism as a school of thought. I would not box myself in so and I don't have a personal agenda. I do not agree with your generalizations about it though. You have your own axe to grind.

My original post is somewhat flawed in that I said the roots of many goddesses are African when I should have said 'some' of the roots of diety or cultural influences to be more clear.

However, I am not a proponent of your oppositional revisionism either.



Lies.

If anything most of the Greek pantheon comes from the Nordic invaders ( The Dorians.) that they talked about in the old stories or the early Indo Europeans who's location of origin in culture is still in mystery. ( Though obviosly could not come from the South across the sea with the limited seafaring capabilities of the time.)

The Dorians were Nordic invaders? Do you have a reliable source for this?

What are your opinions regarding "Nordicism"?

Also some proof of the limited seafaring capabilities of the ancient Greeks? (Though I think that point has been soundly disproven in any case.) I think maybe you are too focused on the Dorians as a source or origin for Greek culture. In the scheme of things they're the end-all, so to speak.

The Dorians are best known for their invasion of mainland Greece which, along with the civil war at the end of the Mycenean, led to the Greek Dark Ages. The Dorians originated from north, northwestern Greece, Macedonia and Epirus. From these points they began to invade toward the south, into the center of mainland Greece, and then to the Peloponnesian, and the southern Aegean islands. Once their invasions of central Greece ceased, their descent to southern Greece produced waves of invasions through the Peloponnesus, into Crete, and westward to Rhodes.

The Dorians themselves, were in many regards primitive compared to the Bronze Age Mycenean, and there are many hypotheses about their origins. The more mythical origins tells how the Dorians acquired their name from a small district in central Greece known as Doris. Accordingly, the Heraclidae, or three sons of Heracles, were driven from their home in Doris, by the Mycenean ruler Eurystheus. The Heraclidae took refuge with the king of Doris Aegimius. Later, the Heraclidae led a successful invasion of mainland Greece and reclaimed their heritage. The actual origins of the Dorians, unlike the myth, remain quite obscure due to a general lack of archeological evidence during the Greek Dark Ages. It is, however, known that the Dorians did have knowledge of the iron slashing sword.


http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/aegean/theculturesofgreece/dorians.html


l admit that ancient Egypt did affect many cultures in the Mediterranean , but the Greeks did not travel to ancient Egypt until later thus creating most of their own cultural identity.This is your opinion and you are welcome to it. Surely, if you want to prove your belief's, provid some sources.



http://www.shunya.net/Text/Herodotus/images/Greece.gif

Look at the map of Greece.

The most obvious place to get into ancient Greece would be from the North.

So it is obvious that the early Greeks were very isolated in ancient times since seafaring was primitive at best.

So it is my belief that the Archaic Greeks with the invading Dorians made their own belief structure with little foreign influence in ancient times of Archaic Greece.

Again this is your belief. How quaint to provide a map for edification. Yes, Dorians = North. I see it all now! /sarcasim/ JK/ :hahugh:

[Grimr]

Here I will solve the whole thread for you all.

The ancient Greeks can't have their identity or anything else.

You guys want to take their identity then go ahead.

I am so tired of this revisionist thinking in modern academics.

It seems to be a crime against humanity these days to have a different cultural identity.

I hope you all are happy.


It pains me that the beauty of cultures can not be acknoweldged today without distorted views.


So go ahead steal their identity as you will do so anyways.





:thumbsdow :nuhuh: :shaker: :fpatricks :bangyourh :bangyourh :damnpc: :fpcsucks

[Agaliha]

The ancient Greeks can't have their identity or anything else.
You guys want to take their identity then go ahead.


No one was trying to take their identity or saying they didn't have one of their own.
Saying a goddess perhaps had some place in Africa (either was imported from there or was honored there as well) and that was mingled with Phoenician and Greek travelers and mixed with what is now call said goddess is not saying all of the Greek identity is stripped.
The Meditteranean was full of travel, trade and mingling-- mixing, barrowing and sharing of religion and such is to be expected. Instead of saying Athene might have Anatolian roots, all was mentioned was a possible African connection. Big deal.

I am so tired of this revisionist thinking in modern academics.
First, Revisionism in it's true form is not negative anyway.
It's easy to accuse everyone of being a revisionist when what they say doesn't fit into the nice little package you think/know.
I'm not a revisionist-- in the negative sense. I'm a person that keeps an open mind and reads all the possible angles, I back my claims up with sources, links and such.
Perhaps you are the revisionist-- ignoring aspects of the Greek (and others) civilization and possible connections for your own needs. I don't know. I don't care.
We had facts, sites, and proof. Think all of history is wrong-- that's your choice, one that you're entitiled to.

It seems to be a crime against humanity these days to have a different cultural identity.

Again, where did you get this from? Where did any of us state the Greeks can't have their own culture?
Greek culture was never pure-- there was invaders, trade, travel, etc. What was originally Greek and what was borrowed-- in some cases we don't know.

It pains me that the beauty of cultures can not be acknoweldged today without distorted views.

Where were we distorting them? Humm?
It seems to me you, with your shady facts with no sources that were proved incorrect most of the time are the one not awknowledging the cultures. You left out a huge chunk of Egyptian history-- the period between the Nubians and Alexander... you bumped Archaic Greece to a whole different time, you downplayed the Phoenician travels and skill...
You have yet to explain your claims as well or show proof.

So go ahead steal their identity as you will do so anyways.

Whatever.
Steal it how? In what ways?
I'm really curious.

[Theres]

this seems to be the way most discussions about the Greeks end.
what i think people tend to forget is that there was no such place as 'Ancient Greece'. the City-states had many cultural similarities, as one would expect. but they were all fiercely independent of each other politically AND religiously.

so trying to define some unified Greek way is futile at best, and probably as revisionist as anything i've read in this thread so far.

ho hum...

[Hellenic_Witch]

this seems to be the way most discussions about the Greeks end.
what i think people tend to forget is that there was no such place as 'Ancient Greece'. the City-states had many cultural similarities, as one would expect. but they were all fiercely independent of each other politically AND religiously.

so trying to define some unified Greek way is futile at best, and probably as revisionist as anything i've read in this thread so far.

ho hum...
well said.

[Baron von Hoopla]

probably not...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/046509838X/002-8117007-1440858?v=glance&n=283155



Well, if it's in a book then it MUST be true!!!!!!!!!


First, I never said I believed the Medusa legend was based out of Africa, I was merely passing along that some think it does.

Second, those who are sure of their facts have probably only consulted one encyclopedia. Every book has a different story, but you think you know the "real" truth? (Insert giggles here)

Third, what does it matter? The legends exist, how does it make them more or less precious if they originate in Africa, Achaea, or Lemuria?

T.F.Y.S.!

Taking on Wolfpoet's 'leader role',

BVH

[Theres]

:lol:

wow, aren't we testy!

yanno, i could really care less, i was just offering another point of view. if that strikes fear into your bones, then so be it.

:rolleyes:

[Baron von Hoopla]

Yes, I'm shaking in my army boots.

[Cerulean_damselfly]

Hello David19,

The Athena that I associate with myth as patron goddess of Athens, I think of as Greek. That's my main allegorical association of Athena. I think the Athens citizens really prided themselves of its ancient history:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Athens

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athena

It's true that Athena also was of Sparta, but how she was viewed there probably differed. So the deity "Athena" could have a combination of characterisitics. I find it interesting to note one theory of Athena of Athens might have taken her name from the city; and that citizens chose her because she was more even-tempered than Poseidon. This says to me the characteristics that made up 'Athena' at that time and place were particular to that region.

I'm not certain about your book--perhaps it is a text that lists lots of different similarities of goddesses based on characteristics and associations?
I see in the wikipedia description a nice description of Athena sources.

What do you think would be the best association of Athena for you? I think I prefer the Athena stories before the Minerva associations...certainly I wouldn't associate Athena with the modern California state seal with Athena/Minerva and a Grizzily bear (listed in the wikipedia reference of Athena/Minerva in modern times)--although it might a rather curiously cheerful and local adaptation for me.

I noticed as a side note that there's an animal association--an owl which had associations with Athena, does inhabit different regions of Europe and Africa, so that animal and associated similarities could lead someone looking back to conclusions there were similar goddesses from other regions that shared similar characteristics...? That's a suggestion, I don't really know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_owl

Although in literature, Athena was typically 'gray-eyed', not yellow-eyed like this owl. The Latin name of this owl with Athena came much much later than the Greek and Roman civilizations (in the 1700s).

In a similar vein, an owl is named and associated with Lillith and also historically with a beautiful Welsh myth . I wouldn't say the bird-woman Lillith or the beautiful, though ill-fated Welsh woman of flowers is any way similar with gray-eyed Athena, even if there's a similarity in the animal association.

Hopefully my opinion makes sense.

Regards,

Cerulean_Damselfly