Oklahoma Runestones

[Hangatyr 13]

I've decieded that the recon forum would be best for this because lots of Heathens come here, and the Oklahoma Runestones are a bit of a mystery.

Surprizingly, there are allot of American Heathens who've never heard about the Oklahoma runestones. Erosion and lycen tests have dated them back to somewhere between 600 and 900 CE. Here's a picture of the most famous one, the Heavener Runestone.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f6/Hangatyr13/Heavener_runestone.jpg

I have two very good, very Heathen freinds here in Oklahoma who both know a whole lot about the Oklahoma runestones, and they both have completely different ideas about what this insciption means. The most commonly accepted theory (which neither of my friends completely believe) is that it translates to "Glomedal", "dal" being West Norse for "valley" and "Glome" possibly being someone's name. The second rune is known among Oklahoma Heathens as "the controversial rune". The accepted translation assumes (with some imagination) that it's a Laguz, but I've seen a Futhark from the Orkneys where the controversial rune is a Jera, so I think it says something more along the lines of "Gjomedal", but I'm not a scholar.

There are other runestones here in Oklahoma, including the Poteau Runestone, the Shawnee Runestone, and various runestones with single runes on them like Elhaz and Tiwaz. There are even more that haven't made it on the internet because they're on private property and the owners don't want people snooping around.

Learn more. Here's some links:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavener_runestone
www.midwesternepigraphic.org/heavener01.html

Hail Vinland!

[cowdragon]

I have looked into this also, and enjoyed it very much...but thank you for bringing back to my attention. On a similar note, have you been following the Kennewick man? More interesting stuff about northern europeans in the Americas. :)


The Cowdragon _wiz_

[banondraig]

highly cool stuff.

cowdragon, do you have some links about the kennewick man?

[Rick]

For more, go here: http://privatei.com/~bartjean/mainpage.htm

[mtpathy]

odd im from Oklahoma and ive never heard of such a place
and i thought that i knew where everything was around here.
got directions? roadtrip here i come..

[RavensEye]

Hey that is very interesting :D

[Nantonos]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavener_Runestone
only six of the eight characters are genuine Elder Futhark runes. .... The inscription has been rejected by Scandinavian philologists and runologists, who consider it to be modern (19th or 20th century).
Although, since the entire article lacks references, the arguments made both in favor and against this being a genuine 8th century inscription are unverifiable.

[Rick]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavener_Runestone
only six of the eight characters are genuine Elder Futhark runes. .... The inscription has been rejected by Scandinavian philologists and runologists, who consider it to be modern (19th or 20th century).
Although, since the entire article lacks references, the arguments made both in favor and against this being a genuine 8th century inscription are unverifiable.
The inscription was reported by a Choctaw hunting party around 1830... the Oklahoma Historical Society is actually cuttin' loose with some money to do some excavation in the immediate area (ok, keep in mind that this isn't something like the Kensington stone, which is about the size of a headstone... this boulder used to be part of the cliff face; it was separated to be placed in a shelter). It's also not isolated... runestones (as well as ogham script) have been found in several places near the Arkansas River and several of it's tributaries, clear up into Colorado; if this is a hoax, it's been perpetrated by many people over a stretch of about a thousand miles, give or take a hundred. I've visited the Runestone State Park many times over the years, but I wasn't thoroughly convinced until last year when I saw the metal shieldboss at the Kerr Museum in Poteau, near Heavener.

For mtpathy: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&formtype=address&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&cat=&address=&city=heavener&state=ok&zipcode=

For all Okie MWers (and any others that might be interested): we will be doing a roadtrip from Tulsa, OK to Heavener sometime in June. If things go as planned, we'll be staying a the Kerr Mansion in Poteau (home of said Kerr Museum). If you would like to convoy with us, or meet us there, let me know. PM me for reservation information for the mansion.

[Nantonos]

The inscription was reported by a Choctaw hunting party around 1830.
That would be very usefulinformation to add to the wikipedia page, especially if you can cite a reference for it.

It's also not isolated... runestones (as well as ogham script) have been found in several places near the Arkansas River and several of it's tributaries, clear up into Colorado; if this is a hoax, it's been perpetrated by many people over a stretch of about a thousand miles
Do you have further information on those?

I've visited the Runestone State Park many times over the years, but I wasn't thoroughly convinced until last year when I saw the metal shieldboss at the Kerr Museum in Poteau, near Heavener.
Why,when does the shield boss date to and what culture does it come from?

If things go as planned, we'll be staying a the Kerr Mansion in Poteau (home of said Kerr Museum). If you would like to convoy with us, or meet us there, let me know. PM me for reservation information for the mansion.
Field trip, excellent! Hope you get good photos and pick up some good books on the subject - and improve the wikipedia article when you get back.

[Rick]

I don't use wikipedia. Any user can change/edit any article, right? Doesn’t invoke a lot of faith in me.

The 1830's reference is from Heavener resident Gloria Farley's book In Plain Sight. While I do not recall her original source of the reference, Mrs. Farley states all of her sources in her book, and whether they are documented, or local folklore, or etc.

Re: the other stones with runes, I have seen several of them (some are in museums, some on private property), and have visited with credible people that have seen several of the others (most of these are people that don't particularly have an opinion on Viking visitation). Some of these are referenced in Mrs. Farley's book.

The shield boss is in the private collection of the late United States Senator Robert S. Kerr (of Kerr/McGee oil fame), who lived in Poteau (just a few miles from the runestone). I doubt seriously whether it has been examined by any archeologists; the "official" point of view of the state Historical Society is that ancient Native Americans left all these marks, as we all know that there were only indigenous people on this continent before 1492. I do know, however, that iron shield bosses were not typical of Plains Indians' buffalo hide shields (metal artifacts from Spanish explorers have been found, and of course that's a possibility, but what I saw doesn't seem to be typical of those, either).

Now that we have a digicam, I hope to get lots of good pics.

[Nantonos]

I don't use wikipedia. Any user can change/edit any article, right? Doesn’t invoke a lot of faith in me.
Right. Instead of a regular web page where one person gets to say what they like, its subject to peer editing. That user can be you. Good, well referenced material tends to stick around. But your choice.

The 1830's reference is from Heavener resident Gloria Farley's book In Plain Sight.
Oh dear. Pity there is no other reference apart from that.

The shield boss is in the private collection of the late United States Senator Robert S. Kerr (of Kerr/McGee oil fame), who lived in Poteau (just a few miles from the runestone). I doubt seriously whether it has been examined by any archeologists; the "official" point of view of the state Historical Society is that ancient Native Americans left all these marks, as we all know that there were only indigenous people on this continent before 1492.
Or in that state, perhaps.

I do know, however, that iron shield bosses were not typical of Plains Indians' buffalo hide shields (metal artifacts from Spanish explorers have been found, and of course that's a possibility, but what I saw doesn't seem to be consistent with any of those, either).
One wonders, then, why it hs not been examined by an archaeologist. Does it have a secure provenance?

[seapearls]

I have vaguely come across the Oklahoma runestones in my book Illustrated Guide to Runes by Nigel Pennick, on page 39 he states that they have been dismised as fakes.

[Nantonos]

Some background reading on the "Barry Fell" school of wildly anachronistic epigraphy:
http://cwva.org/ogam_rebutal/wirtz.html
http://cwva.org/ogam_rebutal/lesser_how_sci_works.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barry_Fell

Examples of the directions it tends to be headed - "lost tribes" of Israel across the word and an attempt to prove the historical truth of the Bible as a universal word wide religion:
http://www.asis.com/~stag/americab.html

This is essentialy the 19th century "British Israelite" material but a century further on and moved to a new continent.

[mtpathy]

For mtpathy: http://www.mapquest.com/maps/map.adp?searchtype=address&country=US&addtohistory=&searchtab=home&formtype=address&popflag=0&latitude=&longitude=&name=&phone=&level=&cat=&address=&city=heavener&state=ok&zipcode=

For all Okie MWers (and any others that might be interested): we will be doing a roadtrip from Tulsa, OK to Heavener sometime in June. If things go as planned, we'll be staying a the Kerr Mansion in Poteau (home of said Kerr Museum). If you would like to convoy with us, or meet us there, let me know. PM me for reservation information for the mansion.

lol sounds like a plan,ill pm you with my regular email address and we
could set up a time to talk,get to know each other,as my wife and i
have been planing a roadtrip to redrock canyon as well :)

[Rick]

Yep, I love Red Rock Canyon, too, as well as Roman Nose, Sulpher Springs, and the Wichita Mts. Wildlife Refuge...

[Rick]

I have vaguely come across the Oklahoma runestones in my book Illustrated Guide to Runes by Nigel Pennick, on page 39 he states that they have been dismised as fakes.
The Kensington Stone is probably fake. The runestones that have been found across the states of Arkansas and Oklahoma aren't so easily dismissed. You can fake a lot of things, but not the rate that lichen grows on rocks.

[Lunacie]

I've visited the Heavener Stone in OK and whether or not the stone is fake (and it would be amazing to fake something that big clear up on a cliff face) . . . the energies in that area are amazing. I could feel a vibration in the rocks that almost felt like music. When we were there the waterfall was a mere dampness on the rockface, I would love to see it in full flow. I imagine the rocks and water would almost sing.

I've also visited Crack Cave near Springfield CO and seen the Ogham Runes there . . . two rows of them; one is lit by a beam of light at daybreak on the spring equinox, the other row is lit by a beam of light at sunset on the autumn equinox. The energy there was different, but there had been a lot of Native American activity in the valley where the cave is located. There's a whole cliff wall filled with NA signs and symbols.

The premise that a party of Celtic explorers travelled inland from the gulf coast at least as far as Colorado via rivers and waterways seems entirely plausible to me, and quite fascinating.

[Rick]

Here are some photos from our recent trip to the Heavener Runestone Park. I'll have to get Elise to help me upload with the shots of the Runestone itself (I keep getting an error message), meanwhile here are these:

[Rick]

And a couple more...

[RavensEye]

Oh wow those are so cool :)

[Rick]

Damn, girl, hold up, lemme post 'em before ya look at 'em... :lol:

[RavensEye]

:fpraise: ok sorry I just responded to the thread when I got the email notice ... I will wait for the rest :lol: :)

[Rick]

Hehehe... just kiddin'... look away... :hehehehe:

[Lunacie]

I can't read the info on the little card in the corner of the one that's a line drawing. I don't remember seeing that one when we visited Heavener, is that where you saw it? Please tell me what it says on the card for that one?

[~Elise~]

I can't read the info on the little card in the corner of the one that's a line drawing. I don't remember seeing that one when we visited Heavener, is that where you saw it? Please tell me what it says on the card for that one?

Lunacie--

Those pics are from the Kerr Museum that is part of the Kerr Conference Center. We try to stay there when we can. It is an awesome B&B as well as having great conference space. Very reasonable, as well. How many museums just come unlock the door and then let you wander through it at your leisure?

It says: Profile on cliff in Tulsa is near name "Gwynn" written in Celtic Ogam and Iberic scripts

Elise

[~Elise~]

Okay--

I resized the pics of the runestone and also tried to clean up the one that is the controversial rune.

I'm sure Rick will elaborate on these.

[Nantonos]

It says: Profile on cliff in Tulsa is near name "Gwynn" written in Celtic Ogam and Iberic scripts


Does the museum offer any explanation for the concurrent use of Iberic (which was in use from the 6th to the first centuries BCE) and Ogam (which was in use from the 4th to 10th centuries CE)? After all, a Celt from the time that Iberic was in use would be writing in Celtiberian or in Gaulish languages, the former using Iberic script and the latter using either Greek or perhaps Roman script (according to location and time period).

In addition, the word 'Gwynn' clearly dates from a time after sound shifts and dropping of case endings, thus making it early mediaeval.

[Rick]

Does the museum offer any explanation for the concurrent use of Iberic (which was in use from the 6th to the first centuries BCE) and Ogam (which was in use from the 4th to 10th centuries CE)? After all, a Celt from the time that Iberic was in use would be writing in Celtiberian or in Gaulish languages, the former using Iberic script and the latter using either Greek or perhaps Roman script (according to location and time period).

In addition, the word 'Gwynn' clearly dates from a time after sound shifts and dropping of case endings, thus making it early mediaeval.
Nothing at the museum to explain (the museum contains mostly the private collections of the late U.S. Senator, Robert S. Kerr, it's not an actual 'museum'). Mrs. Farley's explanation for several different scripts is that many different peoples over many years passed through and, if nothing else, left graffitti. I can't speak to the authenticity of the 'Gwynn' etching, but thought it was interesting enough to share.