David19
April 3rd, 2006, 01:34 PM
I was reading this article (http://www.theisticsatanism.com/geifodd/apep.html), the article is by a Satanist, but i think it's a good article and has some good things in it.
The main bit is on Apep, and the traditional Egyptian view of him/it, and also has an interesting view of Ra.
I believe that if there is indeed a Creator god at all, It is highly unlikely to take even a remotely personal interest in human beings. And I believe that any spiritual being that evidently does take a personal interest in human beings must surely be a smaller-than-cosmic entity. This viewpoint is called Post-Copernican natural theology.
It may be argued that Ra is somewhat of a less personal Creator god than Yahweh, but this does not serve any argument against my point. Ra would still have to take somewhat of a personal interest in humans if he were to reveal himself as "the Creator" at all to the ancient Egyptians, and this is exactly as he is depicted in the mythology. For instance, the narrator of the Egyptian creation story is supposedly the Sun God himself. But assuming that this is truly an inspiration from some kind of spiritual being, how is anybody really sure that this spiritual being is really what he says he is?
I do not agree with the ancient Egyptians that Ra created himself, or that he "split apart" the ocean of "nothingness" so that he could create the entire world, or that all order in the universe depends upon his existence, or that the lack of his existence would spell out the ultimate annihilation of all things. Even if Ra really does have anything to do with the sun literally (as opposed to just using it as a personal symbol for his cult), it has been proven since the days of Copernicus that the universe does not revolve around our sun anymore than it revolves around ourselves. Sure, the destruction of the sun would be the subsequent destruction of us -- but the entire universe? No. The universe would go on just fine without us, and our sun.
If Ra is not the Creator god, then this means that the universe will not collapse if he is overthrown by Apep. If anything, it means that a spirit trying to control his flock through deception will be overthrown, and the humans he once controlled through superstition will be freed from his grasp. In this light, Apep's work against Ra may very well mean the end of the world -- but only for worshipers of Ra.
As a Devil worshiper, I think that any personal deity who claims to be the Creator is a liar, and I would sooner trust the god who is believed to oppose him, who does not make any claims about himself, and who allows himself to be scapegoated by everybody. I put my faith in Satan over Yahweh because, unlike Yahweh, Satan doesn't make claims about Himself, and He allows people to scapegoat Him all they want. Even according to the traditional Christian beliefs, Satan does not care whether human beings believe in Him or not. In my perspective, this demonstrates that Satan's ego is made of much stronger stuff than Yahweh's, which would appear to be quite fragile.
Likewise, Apep apparently never bothered to make claims about Himself to a cult of followers in Egypt. He seems to allow Ra and the other gods to spread whatever beliefs about Him they want. And He apparently does not care whether people believe in Him or not, as they do not have to believe in Him for Him to battle the Sun God. For the same reasons that I am inclined to put my faith in Satan over Yahweh, I am also inclined to put my faith in Apep over Ra, or any other self-proclaimed "Creator god."
Apep was considered to be a force that was alien to Egypt, and which brought foreign influences that continually threatened the stability of the Egyptian lifestyle and worldview. The Egyptians also feared Apep because he was essentially trying to overthrow the rulership of Deity in human politics. He therefore represented not only a fear of the destruction of the entire universe, but also a xenophobic fear of foreign influences, and a theological fear of secularism. To the Egyptian imagination, the idea of government apart from the gods -- i.e., secular government -- was quite unthinkable. It naturally would have painted images of apocalyptic death and destruction in their minds. But it has since been proven in recent centuries that secular government is not exactly the end of the world.
There's a lot more to it, but i thought this bit was interesting, and i think it does make sense, in some ways. The guy who wrote it is a part of the Church of Azazel (created by Diane Vera, i think), and it's one of (if not the) best Satanist sites i've seen, and for me, while i'm not a Satanist, some of the cosmology and theology influences me, a bit.
For me, i don't think any of the gods that contact humans are the creators, and because, i'm a 'hard' polytheist, i view the gods as being individual beings, with their own motivations, personalities, views, etc and probably some may lie (i'm saying Ra is bad or anything).
BTW, the guy isn't saying Satanism is pre-Christian or that Egyptans worshipped Satan, he's saying that if any supernatural being is going to be
the same as Azazel/Satan then it'll be a being who was never worshipped and didn't desire to be worshipped (which i don't think Apep wanted, maybe someone else know's more).
I think it does make a lot of sense in some ways.
Anyway, what are your thoughts/views on it?
BTW, i'm not attacking anyone who's patron is Ra or who worships him, i just thought the article was interesting and might be cool to share, plus i like comparitive religion, as i believe you can learn a lot from other religions about the nature of the spiritual/supernatural 'universe', than just by looking at your own religion or personal experience (anyone else agree, although that is really for another thread).
I forgot to mention, the guy also criticises some Satanist's who try and see Set as Satan, so you may want to read the whole article :).
The main bit is on Apep, and the traditional Egyptian view of him/it, and also has an interesting view of Ra.
I believe that if there is indeed a Creator god at all, It is highly unlikely to take even a remotely personal interest in human beings. And I believe that any spiritual being that evidently does take a personal interest in human beings must surely be a smaller-than-cosmic entity. This viewpoint is called Post-Copernican natural theology.
It may be argued that Ra is somewhat of a less personal Creator god than Yahweh, but this does not serve any argument against my point. Ra would still have to take somewhat of a personal interest in humans if he were to reveal himself as "the Creator" at all to the ancient Egyptians, and this is exactly as he is depicted in the mythology. For instance, the narrator of the Egyptian creation story is supposedly the Sun God himself. But assuming that this is truly an inspiration from some kind of spiritual being, how is anybody really sure that this spiritual being is really what he says he is?
I do not agree with the ancient Egyptians that Ra created himself, or that he "split apart" the ocean of "nothingness" so that he could create the entire world, or that all order in the universe depends upon his existence, or that the lack of his existence would spell out the ultimate annihilation of all things. Even if Ra really does have anything to do with the sun literally (as opposed to just using it as a personal symbol for his cult), it has been proven since the days of Copernicus that the universe does not revolve around our sun anymore than it revolves around ourselves. Sure, the destruction of the sun would be the subsequent destruction of us -- but the entire universe? No. The universe would go on just fine without us, and our sun.
If Ra is not the Creator god, then this means that the universe will not collapse if he is overthrown by Apep. If anything, it means that a spirit trying to control his flock through deception will be overthrown, and the humans he once controlled through superstition will be freed from his grasp. In this light, Apep's work against Ra may very well mean the end of the world -- but only for worshipers of Ra.
As a Devil worshiper, I think that any personal deity who claims to be the Creator is a liar, and I would sooner trust the god who is believed to oppose him, who does not make any claims about himself, and who allows himself to be scapegoated by everybody. I put my faith in Satan over Yahweh because, unlike Yahweh, Satan doesn't make claims about Himself, and He allows people to scapegoat Him all they want. Even according to the traditional Christian beliefs, Satan does not care whether human beings believe in Him or not. In my perspective, this demonstrates that Satan's ego is made of much stronger stuff than Yahweh's, which would appear to be quite fragile.
Likewise, Apep apparently never bothered to make claims about Himself to a cult of followers in Egypt. He seems to allow Ra and the other gods to spread whatever beliefs about Him they want. And He apparently does not care whether people believe in Him or not, as they do not have to believe in Him for Him to battle the Sun God. For the same reasons that I am inclined to put my faith in Satan over Yahweh, I am also inclined to put my faith in Apep over Ra, or any other self-proclaimed "Creator god."
Apep was considered to be a force that was alien to Egypt, and which brought foreign influences that continually threatened the stability of the Egyptian lifestyle and worldview. The Egyptians also feared Apep because he was essentially trying to overthrow the rulership of Deity in human politics. He therefore represented not only a fear of the destruction of the entire universe, but also a xenophobic fear of foreign influences, and a theological fear of secularism. To the Egyptian imagination, the idea of government apart from the gods -- i.e., secular government -- was quite unthinkable. It naturally would have painted images of apocalyptic death and destruction in their minds. But it has since been proven in recent centuries that secular government is not exactly the end of the world.
There's a lot more to it, but i thought this bit was interesting, and i think it does make sense, in some ways. The guy who wrote it is a part of the Church of Azazel (created by Diane Vera, i think), and it's one of (if not the) best Satanist sites i've seen, and for me, while i'm not a Satanist, some of the cosmology and theology influences me, a bit.
For me, i don't think any of the gods that contact humans are the creators, and because, i'm a 'hard' polytheist, i view the gods as being individual beings, with their own motivations, personalities, views, etc and probably some may lie (i'm saying Ra is bad or anything).
BTW, the guy isn't saying Satanism is pre-Christian or that Egyptans worshipped Satan, he's saying that if any supernatural being is going to be
the same as Azazel/Satan then it'll be a being who was never worshipped and didn't desire to be worshipped (which i don't think Apep wanted, maybe someone else know's more).
I think it does make a lot of sense in some ways.
Anyway, what are your thoughts/views on it?
BTW, i'm not attacking anyone who's patron is Ra or who worships him, i just thought the article was interesting and might be cool to share, plus i like comparitive religion, as i believe you can learn a lot from other religions about the nature of the spiritual/supernatural 'universe', than just by looking at your own religion or personal experience (anyone else agree, although that is really for another thread).
I forgot to mention, the guy also criticises some Satanist's who try and see Set as Satan, so you may want to read the whole article :).