Are Solitary Wiccans real wiccans?

[Lunacie]

The whole problem is that someone who says they are Wiccan may not have anything in common with any of the other branches or denominations of Wicca.

It's great and idealistic to find things that bring people together...but Wicca now means anything and everything....

Yes, that is a problem. But not everyone who lays claim to the label is actually practicing Wicca. Those who are do indeed have many things in common. Wicca never has and still does not mean "anything and everything you want it to."

[Twinkle]

Yes, there is a set of characteristics that make Wicca unique. Do a Google search for the online version of Gardner's Book of Shadows (not complete but enough to show the main characteristics). Just because people argue about the issue doesn't mean there aren't any core tenets, just that people like to argue.

One of the core concepts is a belief in the polarity of the divine. In coven practice the group honors one god and one goddess, but as far as personal beliefs and worship Wiccans can worship any god or goddess who calls to them and are encouraged to study and learn about a variety of gods and goddesses.

It has it's roots in many places, such as Crowley's high magicks, older mystery religions, mystery organizations. Many of the older religions that it's based on came from agrarian societies so part of the religion is a recognition of the cycle of nature and the seasons, as well as the moon phases. Gardner drew from a lot of sources to combine his religion, probably none of them invented by Gardner, but combined by him into something unique.

You're working off the assumption that Gardner is the originator of Wicca.....not all would agree with that....some Wiccans disregard Gardner's work completely...

[Lunacie]

You're working off the assumption that Gardner is the originator of Wicca.....not all would agree with that....some Wiccans disregard Gardner's work completely...

I believe that issue was covered with the question of the Frost's and the overlap in the 80's (and into the 90's) of using Wicca and Witchcraft to mean both things, although they are actually different. It's understandable that this overlap has contributed to the current confusion as to who is Wiccan and who is not. It's my understanding that the majority of Wiccans feel that the religion was pieced together by Gerald Gardner. Anything that didn't descend from Gardner in some way is more likely to be Witchcraft.

[Ben Gruagach]

Even within the GLBT community there are big issues about who should be able to use the label. Now, I'm bi-sexual. And I've been told by lesbians that I can't sit on the fence, that I can't like both, that I have to be hetero or gay and there's no inbetween. (And that doesn't seem to be a unique story.) Or that I'm not really bisexual because I married a man. (who is also bisexual, go figure. ;)) So, it still is happening even in the GLBT community, though maybe that's been lessening as of late.

It just goes to show that there are extremists in every community! Thankfully, they tend to be in the minority -- perhaps a vocal one, but not really representative of the whole community.

I always want to ask those self-appointed community police whether they'll be coming into our bedrooms next to make sure those of us who are glbt are having enough of the "right" kinds of sex to qualify for membership as glbt.

Sheesh!

[Tim]

I believe that issue was covered with the question of the Frost's and the overlap in the 80's (and into the 90's) of using Wicca and Witchcraft to mean both things, although they are actually different. It's understandable that this overlap has contributed to the current confusion as to who is Wiccan and who is not. It's my understanding that the majority of Wiccans feel that the religion was pieced together by Gerald Gardner. Anything that didn't descend from Gardner in some way is more likely to be Witchcraft.

I believe earlier in the thread someone stated that Gavin Frost was an initiate of the New Forest coven... the coven that Gerald Gardner joined... wouldn't that give him his lineage and make him Wiccan?

[Ben Gruagach]

You're working off the assumption that Gardner is the originator of Wicca.....not all would agree with that....some Wiccans disregard Gardner's work completely...

Is there any evidence of people who were practicing witchcraft at Gardner's time and just before who called themselves Wiccan?

Gardner was the first person to call the form of witchcraft he was practicing "Wica" (he spelled it with one C) and pehaps heard the term from someone in the group he encountered in the New Forest -- but no one else seems to have decided to call what they were doing Wicca until after Gardner brought it up.

The evidence is pretty overwhelmingly in favour of concluding that Gardner was the key person who brought the term "Wicca" back into use. Everyone else who uses it came after Gardner.

By the way, the fact that Gardner spelled it phonetically, as Wica, and that most people pronounced it as a hard c - like the k sound -- makes it hard to accept that the word wicca was an intact survival from the times when the word was commonly in use. When the word was commonly in use it was pronounced "witch-ah" which is quite a big difference from the way a person who only saw it in print might guess is how it's supposed to be pronounced.

Whether it was Gardner or one of the New Forest group who reintroduced the word Wicca, they did it based on something they saw in print rather than oral transmission which would have preserved the pronounciation more accurately. I would guess someone was just fishing for a witchy-old-fashioned-sounding-word and picked it out of some old text somewhere. The same way the term "book of shadows" made its way into Wicca.

[Ben Gruagach]

I believe earlier in the thread someone stated that Gavin Frost was an initiate of the New Forest coven... the coven that Gerald Gardner joined... wouldn't that give him his lineage and make him Wiccan?

No, I don't believe that is correct.

Gavin Frost apparently got his start in witchcraft through Sybil Leek's mother, who was involved with a group they called the Pentacle Club. That group was quite distinct from the New Forest group (Dorothy Clutterbuck, Dafo and others) who Gardner met.

There were other witches around just before Gardner jumped in with both feet. Philip Heselton's books "Wiccan Roots" and "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" as well as Ronald Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon" give a lot of the detail.

Gavin and Yvonne Frost's relatively recent book "The Solitary Wiccan's Bible" also gives some interesting historical bits. For instance, he talks about Sybil Leek's mom telling him how all the witchcraft groups she knew were directly or indirectly the result of Aleister Crowley's work. Nothing about ancient survivals or continuous lineage...

[WiccanGoddess]

Dispite all the differences, Christianity has a common thread... Jesus.

What of Catholics? They're belief lies in Mary, not Jesus. They're Christian.

[Lunacie]

I believe earlier in the thread someone stated that Gavin Frost was an initiate of the New Forest coven... the coven that Gerald Gardner joined... wouldn't that give him his lineage and make him Wiccan?

I haven't read any of the Frost's books so I don't know what they practice and teach, it may be very much like what they were taught (whether that was New Forest teachings or something else). But as we should all know by now Gardner took some of what he learned from the New Forest group and added a lot of other things to it, so I'm sure he ended up with something quite different than any of the other people who were taught by the New Forest coven at that time, something that was (and is) unique to Gardner.

[Tim]

No, I don't believe that is correct.

Gavin Frost apparently got his start in witchcraft through Sybil Leek's mother, who was involved with a group they called the Pentacle Club. That group was quite distinct from the New Forest group (Dorothy Clutterbuck, Dafo and others) who Gardner met.

There were other witches around just before Gardner jumped in with both feet. Philip Heselton's books "Wiccan Roots" and "Gerald Gardner and the Cauldron of Inspiration" as well as Ronald Hutton's "Triumph of the Moon" give a lot of the detail.

Gavin and Yvonne Frost's relatively recent book "The Solitary Wiccan's Bible" also gives some interesting historical bits. For instance, he talks about Sybil Leek's mom telling him how all the witchcraft groups she knew were directly or indirectly the result of Aleister Crowley's work. Nothing about ancient survivals or continuous lineage...

Well... it was mentioned earlier in the thread by someone and I believe it went unchallenged at the time...

Ben, I'm not really sure were you stand on lineage... is it that you don't agree with direct lineage, but to be Wiccan your beliefs must be in some way linked to Gardner?

[Tim]

I haven't read any of the Frost's books so I don't know what they practice and teach, it may be very much like what they were taught (whether that was New Forest teachings or something else). But as we should all know by now Gardner took some of what he learned from the New Forest group and added a lot of other things to it, so I'm sure he ended up with something quite different than any of the other people who were taught by the New Forest coven at that time, something that was (and is) unique to Gardner.

That brings us back to can a self-taught solitary truly be Wiccan... Garderians (and other Traditional covens) are oath bound... anything written by them has to be looked at as either watered-down or inaccurate. Everything that evolved from those writings may not even resemble what Wicca really is.

[KeaErisdottir]

I'm sorry...but there was a list of core tenets posted here and other places on this board by those who say they are Wiccan...and they don't match and even the person that posted the core tenets said they were debatable.

This would not necessarily matter to muchy of anyone, BUT an outsider to the faith.

And....not to rehash this whole thread again....there's no way to say something is "most likely to be Wiccan" because Wicca has different core tenets depending on Tradition, coven, and practitioner.

There's no way to say what's Wiccan because you would be making a judgement based on your own beliefs and opinion as to what the core tenets are.

Well. DUH! Even with a definitive set of beliefs and core tenets enshrined somewhere, it is all pretty much an opinion game. This is not something you can make a checklist for. The problem is that because there is no checklist, it fails to satisfy the insipid need of the spiritual bean counters who say that you have to use a checklist to define something.

There's a beautiful listing and explanation of Core Tenets on another site. It's the list I use.

[KeaErisdottir]

My point is that you can judge it all you want...but not all that claim that they are Wiccan would agree with you....

Agreement is not required. This is not a Democracy. No voting body gets to make up a checklist and tell me who I have to accept. I accept as Brothers and Sisters who I will, and that is my right, given me through my initiation and training.

So your opinion is your opinion...and nothing more...because Wicca for you is different than what Wicca is to someone else.....and there's no unifying thread that brings all of Wicca together.

A) Damned straight it is opinion, and a valid and -valuable- opinion.
B) Unity is not required for Wicca to be Wicca. The only people wanting unity are people wanting acceptance without condition. That's not what Wicca is about.

[Tim]

Just to reiterate what someone else stated... it is kind of amazing that The American Council of Witches where able to create the Principles of Wiccan Belief (which is pretty general IMO) in 1974... seems as though any semblance of a unity of beliefs has devolved since then.

[dragoncrone]

I was a Buddhist before I became a Wiccan. Maybe that's why I don't understand all the rhetoric and angst here. Do we all need a theological 'shopping list' to validate our beliefs?
If a solitary witch calls the quarters and the center, and summons the god & goddess alone...will they still respond? Listen to what your heart answers.

[Tim]

I was a Buddhist before I became a Wiccan. Maybe that's why I don't understand all the rhetoric and angst here. Do we all need a theological 'shopping list' to validate our beliefs?
If a solitary witch calls the quarters and the center, and summons the god & goddess alone...will they still respond? Listen to what your heart answers.

Good point... why does one need to call themselves a Wiccan to validate their beliefs?

[Stormcat]

Wicca is an agrarian, experiential Mystery religion based on witchcraft, with a reverance for, and adherence to, the cycles of nature. Wicca recognizes the immanence of deity as well as the polarity of deity, in so far as deity is both male and female. Most Wiccans recognize certain practices and/or beliefs as being intrinsic to Wicca. These are, but are not limited to:

Wiccan Rede - Not core, but is recognized in part by many practicioners as a basic guideline to follow

Law of Return/Law of Three/Law of Balance - All Wiccan practices should include something that addresses this. Be it balance, two-fold, three-fold, or ten-fold return, the concept of “you get what you send” is a necessary inclusion. Using the word ‘karma’ in a western philosophical sense is more in keeping with this idea.

Belief in Polytheism - Whether it’s a belief in each and every individual god and goddess, or just recognizing that Wiccan deities are necessarily male and female, two separate and distinct individuals/entities, polytheism is a must.

Wheel of the Year/Sabbats - The names don’t matter. There are four main Sabbats. Some use eight. A celebration/observation of the four main Sabbats are a requirement for Wiccan practice. The other four are merely an extension and do not negate this.

Belief in Deity - It’s rather hard to have a religion without the inclusion of worship and belief of Deity. As stated in the point of polytheism, Wicca uses the male and female concept of deity.

Witchcraft - Wicca, in it’s original state, began as a religion of Witchcraft. Whether one wishes to practice witchcraft or not, it is inextricably tied to Wicca's roots.

Wicca is a Mystery religion - The basics can be taught, be it through printed lessons or oral. Wicca must be experienced to be learned. The Mysteries will come. The Realization that all of Wicca is not taught and that some parts of it have to be experienced is another pivotal point that denotes Wiccan practice.

The Sacred Marriage, or the Great Rite - Whether practiced symbolically or in actuality, this is another core concept of Wicca. Circumstances and personal preference will dictate how this rite is approached. It is the joining of the God and the Goddess, death from life, and life from death. This rite is not to be confused with two people having sex. The ritual of Drawing Down the Moon as an invocatory proceeding is also a necessary part of the complete understanding of this ritual.

Individual Connection with Deity - Some people will wait for years before coming to this connection. We can only search, learn, and be open to recognize what They are trying to tell us. Given time, it will come. Some are very lucky in the fact that they have experienced this connection before ever coming to Wicca. Some will have the connection established within a very short time of learning about the deities. This is not necessarily a hinge point of Wicca, though it does help in other areas.

Personal Responsibility - This, in part, ties in with the Law of Return, but it goes a little further. You have to realize that what you do is your responsibility, and yours only. No one else is responsible for what you do other than you.

Constant Improvement - This applies to learning, studies, practices, yourself (both mentally and physically), your outlook, your faith, your understanding… the list goes on. If you have ever reached a stage that you think is absolute perfection, you have quit learning and growing. You have either gave up, died, or are no longer Wiccan.

[Twinkle]

What of Catholics? They're belief lies in Mary, not Jesus. They're Christian.

Obviously you're not Catholic...and you're making statements based on no knowledge whatsoever.

That statement is absolutely false.

Catholics believe that God sent an angel to Mary (a virgin) to ask her to give birth to the Savior of the World....Jesus Christ....the son of God....God made man. He's the core of the whole frickin' religion.

Catholics believe that Jesus was God made man...That he suffered, died and was buried to release the world from Sin. He will come again, to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

That last little bit is from the Apostles Creed....The Creed is repeated at every Catholic Mass....

So you were saying?

[Twinkle]

This would not necessarily matter to muchy of anyone, BUT an outsider to the faith.



Well. DUH! Even with a definitive set of beliefs and core tenets enshrined somewhere, it is all pretty much an opinion game. This is not something you can make a checklist for. The problem is that because there is no checklist, it fails to satisfy the insipid need of the spiritual bean counters who say that you have to use a checklist to define something.

There's a beautiful listing and explanation of Core Tenets on another site. It's the list I use.

I would disagree that it doesn't matter to anyone except those outside the faith. There are plenty of people that consider themselves Wiccan that are very angry and upset that their faith is being called anything and everything.

I want to know what Wicca is....if you don't have anything to define it with....how would one know? How would a solitary know? How does anyone know?

If it's a personal spiritual evolving path...then why call it Wicca?

[Stormcat]

I would disagree that it doesn't matter to anyone outside the faith. There are plenty of people that consider themselves Wiccan that are very angry and upset that their faith is being called anything and everything.


If it's an opinion game...and everything and anything can be Wiccan because there's no enshrined beliefs or core tenets....then why call it Wicca?

As a self professed outsider to the faith, this opinion is less informed than someone who has been practicing for many years. Simply because you do not wish to believe that there are core tenets, or because several people have told you that they do not agree on what those core tenets are, does not make this statement factual.

I have just posted a definition and set of values ascribed to Wicca. I think MOST Wiccans can agree with MOST of them. Some are not absolutely required, such as the Rede, and there will be many Wiccans who may believe that there are other things that could be added. Regardless, this is a valid, informed list, agreed upon by a community of Wiccan's as to what they hold dear. Any disagreement with some of these tenets does not make the list, in part or entire, invalid.

[Twinkle]

Wicca is an agrarian, experiential Mystery religion based on witchcraft, with a reverance for, and adherence to, the cycles of nature. Wicca recognizes the immanence of deity as well as the polarity of deity, in so far as deity is both male and female. Most Wiccans recognize certain practices and/or beliefs as being intrinsic to Wicca. These are, but are not limited to:

Wiccan Rede - Not core, but is recognized in part by many practicioners as a basic guideline to follow

Law of Return/Law of Three/Law of Balance - All Wiccan practices should include something that addresses this. Be it balance, two-fold, three-fold, or ten-fold return, the concept of “you get what you send” is a necessary inclusion. Using the word ‘karma’ in a western philosophical sense is more in keeping with this idea.

Belief in Polytheism - Whether it’s a belief in each and every individual god and goddess, or just recognizing that Wiccan deities are necessarily male and female, two separate and distinct individuals/entities, polytheism is a must.

Wheel of the Year/Sabbats - The names don’t matter. There are four main Sabbats. Some use eight. A celebration/observation of the four main Sabbats are a requirement for Wiccan practice. The other four are merely an extension and do not negate this.

Belief in Deity - It’s rather hard to have a religion without the inclusion of worship and belief of Deity. As stated in the point of polytheism, Wicca uses the male and female concept of deity.

Witchcraft - Wicca, in it’s original state, began as a religion of Witchcraft. Whether one wishes to practice witchcraft or not, it is inextricably tied to Wicca's roots.

Wicca is a Mystery religion - The basics can be taught, be it through printed lessons or oral. Wicca must be experienced to be learned. The Mysteries will come. The Realization that all of Wicca is not taught and that some parts of it have to be experienced is another pivotal point that denotes Wiccan practice.

The Sacred Marriage, or the Great Rite - Whether practiced symbolically or in actuality, this is another core concept of Wicca. Circumstances and personal preference will dictate how this rite is approached. It is the joining of the God and the Goddess, death from life, and life from death. This rite is not to be confused with two people having sex. The ritual of Drawing Down the Moon as an invocatory proceeding is also a necessary part of the complete understanding of this ritual.

Individual Connection with Deity - Some people will wait for years before coming to this connection. We can only search, learn, and be open to recognize what They are trying to tell us. Given time, it will come. Some are very lucky in the fact that they have experienced this connection before ever coming to Wicca. Some will have the connection established within a very short time of learning about the deities. This is not necessarily a hinge point of Wicca, though it does help in other areas.

Personal Responsibility - This, in part, ties in with the Law of Return, but it goes a little further. You have to realize that what you do is your responsibility, and yours only. No one else is responsible for what you do other than you.

Constant Improvement - This applies to learning, studies, practices, yourself (both mentally and physically), your outlook, your faith, your understanding… the list goes on. If you have ever reached a stage that you think is absolute perfection, you have quit learning and growing. You have either gave up, died, or are no longer Wiccan.

Stormcat....with all due respect. This is your definition and if others agree with it, fine. The definition you posted here is not the definition for all of Wicca.

If it was, I'd be delighted. At least then I'd know what it is with any degree of certainty.

[Tim]

I have just posted a definition and set of values ascribed to Wicca. I think MOST Wiccans can agree with MOST of them. Some are not absolutely required, such as the Rede, and there will be many Wiccans who may believe that there are other things that could be added. Regardless, this is a valid, informed list, agreed upon by a community of Wiccan's as to what they hold dear. Any disagreement with some of these tenets does not make the list, in part or entire, invalid.

No... doesn't make it invalid, just only makes it your definition for your practice... I think what Twinkle is looking for is that one common thread that identifies Wicca as Wicca... yes other religions have a great deal of diversity too... but each has a common definable thread that makes them what they are.

[Twinkle]

And it's not that I don't wish to believe there are no core tenets.....

Nobody's shown me any core tenets that all can agree with.....and I don't know that you can say with any certainty that "most" do agree with "most" of the core tenets.

There's a huge difference between Wicca being a Mystery Religion and it being an Earth based one....

It seems that you want Wicca to mean something, but you don't want to define what it means.

[Stormcat]

Stormcat....with all due respect.... This is your definition and if others agree with it, fine. The definition you posted here is not the definition for all of Wicca.

If it was, I'd be delighted. At least then I'd know what it is with any degree of certainty.

This is not simply MY definition. It is the definition of a good many Wiccans. Again, you will not get a consistent set of definitions if you believe that the definition of the 14 yr old Teen learning from a book by $RW is on par with the 74 yr old who studied with Gardner himself. If you expect agreement, absolute and 100% from every single person in order to accept a definition, then I am afraid you will be continually disappointed with life in general, because nothing in life is that certain. It is too bad that you wish to throw this strawman into the works. It's worthless.

[KeaErisdottir]

And it's not that I don't wish to believe there are no core tenets.....

Nobody's shown me any core tenets that all can agree with.....and I don't know that you can say with any certainty that "most" do agree with "most" of the core tenets.

ALL agreement is impossible. Thus, you say that not only Wicca has not core tenets, but that most of the religions of the world have no core tenets, because not all agree as to what all are.

Stormcat provides a thoughful list. It is better and more detailed than most lists. You reject it because not ALL agree.

It seems that you want Wicca to mean something, but you don't want to define what it means.

Or cannot satisfy it to satisfy you or others?

[Stormcat]

And it's not that I don't wish to believe there are no core tenets.....

Nobody's shown me any core tenets that all can agree with.....and I don't know that you can say with any certainty that "most" do agree with "most" of the core tenets.

There's a huge difference between Wicca being a Mystery Religion and it being an Earth based one....

It seems that you want Wicca to mean something, but you don't want to define what it means.

It is a Mystery Religion and a religion that reveres nature. One does not preclude the other. Wicca means something. I have defined what it means. I can't help that you wish to argue the nose on your face. *shrugs*

Repeating: You will never, ever, get EVERYONE to agree with ANYTHING. This is a naive expectation.

[Stormcat]

No... doesn't make it invalid, just only makes it your definition for your practice... I think what Twinkle is looking for is that one common thread that identifies Wicca as Wicca... yes other religions have a great deal of diversity too... but each has a common definable thread that makes them what they are.

If the common threads in my post cannot be seen, then I'm afraid Twinkle will have to live in ignorance. Alas.

[Tim]

This is not simply MY definition. It is the definition of a good many Wiccans. Again, you will not get a consistent set of definitions if you believe that the definition of the 14 yr old Teen learning from a book by $RW is on par with the 74 yr old who studied with Gardner himself. If you expect agreement, absolute and 100% from every single person in order to accept a definition, then I am afraid you will be continually disappointed with life in general, because nothing in life is that certain. It is too bad that you wish to throw this strawman into the works. It's worthless.

I think you're missing it... it's not 100% complete agreement that she's looking for... it's just one common tenet... one identifier that makes all Wiccans a Wiccan other then that's what they choose to call themselves.

[Twinkle]

ALL agreement is impossible. Thus, you say that not only Wicca has not core tenets, but that most of the religions of the world have no core tenets, because not all agree as to what all are.

Stormcat provides a thoughful list. It is better and more detailed than most lists. You reject it because not ALL agree.



Or cannot satisfy it to satisfy you or others?


Maybe I'm not making myself clear...If I'm not then I apologize. I'll try again.

I'm not saying that Wicca is invalid. People should believe what they want to believe because they believe it.

I understand that Wicca has different core tenets depending on Tradition, coven and individual practitioner. I understand that it cannot be defined to any degree of certainty. I understand that no one has a copyright on the word Wicca..and so anyone may use it as they see fit. I also realize that people that are Wiccan do not have to accept or agree with someone calling themselves Wiccan if that does not agree with what the particular Wiccan believes.

If all of the above is true....is there anything at all that is a common thread among all Wiccans?

[Tim]

If the common threads in my post cannot be seen, then I'm afraid Twinkle will have to live in ignorance. Alas.

I think I missed it too... what is one tenet in your post that is accepted by all Wiccans... what one thing ties them all together as being Wiccan despite all the other differences.

[shuvanilu]

And it's not that I don't wish to believe there are no core tenets.....

Nobody's shown me any core tenets that all can agree with.....and I don't know that you can say with any certainty that "most" do agree with "most" of the core tenets.

There's a huge difference between Wicca being a Mystery Religion and it being an Earth based one....

It seems that you want Wicca to mean something, but you don't want to define what it means.

(I am trepidaciously stepping into this conversation...) I just want to point out that not even all Christians agree on the core tenants of Christianity...A Catholic, a Baptist and a Mormon would give you a VERY different answer if you asked them what the core tennants were for their religion. That does not make Christianity fake, or fluffy, or falling apart. I thought that Stormcat's description was quite accurate. And I'm sure we have a different type of Wiccan background, but I would agree with the assesment.---shuvanilu

[Stormcat]

I think I missed it too... what is one tenet in your post that is accepted by all Wiccans... what one thing ties them all together as being Wiccan despite all the other differences.

So you are saying that there isn't one thing in that list that YOU recognize as Wiccan? I'm sorry. Then I guess you aren't. There are things on that list that are intrinsic to Wicca. If someone rejects everything on that list, then again, they are not Wiccan, no matter what they want to call themselves.

I did not compile this list alone. This was a group effort made up of Traditionalists, Eclectics and Solitaries.

If you want a list that everyone who simply CALLS themselves Wiccan will agree on, then you are boxing at shadows, because such a list will never exist. If you cannot recognize that Wicca has a meaning based on this... more pity you.

[Tim]

(I am trepidaciously stepping into this conversation...) I just want to point out that not even all Christians agree on the core tenants of Christianity...A Catholic, a Baptist and a Mormon would give you a VERY different answer if you asked them what the core tennants were for their religion. That does not make Christianity fake, or fluffy, or falling apart. I thought that Stormcat's description was quite accurate. And I'm sure we have a different type of Wiccan background, but I would agree with the assesment.---shuvanilu

People have brought that up over and over on this thread... but Christianity, despite all the major differences, does have a common thread that links them all together... Jesus as Savior.

[shuvanilu]

Guess I need to go back a re-read....

[Tim]

So you are saying that there isn't one thing in that list that YOU recognize as Wiccan?

I never said that... I said what is one tenet in your post that is accepted by all Wiccans... what one thing ties them all together as being Wiccan despite all the other differences.

Instead of criticizing me for not recognizing it... just point it out. Oh... and BTW... the Traditional Wiccans I know would not accept anyone not initiated into a Traditional Wiccan coven as Wiccan... they don't say those peoples beliefs are invalid, only that you must have lineage to be Wiccan.

[Twinkle]

I never said that... I said what is one tenet in your post that is accepted by all Wiccans... what one thing ties them all together as being Wiccan despite all the other differences.

Instead of criticizing me for not recognizing it... just point it out. Oh... and BTW... the Traditional Wiccans I know would not accept anyone not initiated into a Traditional Wiccan coven as Wiccan... they don't say those peoples beliefs are invalid, only that you must have lineage to be Wiccan.


I'm asking the same question. What is the common thread that pulls all Wiccans together?

If it's in the list I missed it...please enlighten me.

[Stormcat]

I never said that... I said what is one tenet in your post that is accepted by all Wiccans... what one thing ties them all together as being Wiccan despite all the other differences.

Instead of criticizing me for not recognizing it... just point it out. Oh... and BTW... the Traditional Wiccans I know would not accept anyone not initiated into a Traditional Wiccan coven as Wiccan... they don't say those peoples beliefs are invalid, only that you must have lineage to be Wiccan.

Ah..yes, you are right. Unfortunately, I don't know every single Wiccan out there. Personally, Immance and polarity of Deity, regardless of if one only wants to worship the Goddess, or not. I would say also, the Great Rite. If this isn't in one's practice, then I can't see it as Wiccan.

And yes, I know what Traditionals think regarding initiation, I'm on at least one list predominated by them. ; You'll note that I did not include that on the list.

[Stormcat]

I'm asking the same question. What is the common thread that pulls all Wiccans together?

If it's in the list I missed it...please enlighten me.


I refuse to feed the bears any longer. Somewhat pointless, eh?

[Twinkle]

So...there is nothing...no core tenet, no common thread that brings together all Wiccans despite the diversity.

Thank you for answering the question.

[_Banbha_]

So...there is nothing...no core tenet, no common thread that brings together all Wiccans despite the diversity.

Thank you for answering the question.

Okay, I haven't read the the whole thread but how about recoginzing and celebrating the wheel of the year? That seems a basic common tenet and what binds like a holy day?

Pardon, if this has been mentioned before...

[Tim]

Okay, I haven't read the the whole thread but how about recoginzing and celebrating the wheel of the year? That seems a basic common tenet and what binds like a holy day?

Pardon, if this has been mentioned before...

I think we kinda touched on that earlier in the thread but it got passed over... that Wicca may be more a common methodology rather then a set of shared beliefs. It seems the most logical answer at this point... that or Twinkle is correct.

[Twinkle]

Okay, I haven't read the the whole thread but how about recoginzing and celebrating the wheel of the year? That seems a basic common tenet and what binds like a holy day?

Pardon, if this has been mentioned before...

You got me really excited here for a minute....I thought that maybe this is the case....that ritual was the common thread....but no one said anything much about it.

[Eran]

As I have argued before, at the very least it is an Anglo-Saxon term, and the original Anglo-Saxon usages should have precedence. That links it to the sacredness of groves, working with the ancestors, contact with the fairies, invocation of the divine into human form, sacred wells, night-faring journeys, divination, and spiritual teaching. That's a fairly specific complex.

I think you are exactly correct. This is what the Traditional forms of Wicca ( = the religion of Witchcraft) recognize as their spiritual ancestors.

Perhaps what we need is a modifier - I think someone said Wikipedia uses "Neo-" - to differentiate the newer form which wanted to use the same words but wanted to change the meaning. I do like the idea of "Wiccan", "Witchcraft", "Craft" being used in the sense of its older, more historicaly-based meanings, and "Neo-Wicca", "Neo-Witch", "Neo-Craft" referring to the newer, more eclectic models.

Some approach like this might help to resolve the issues. "Wiccan", "Witchcraft", and related words could continue to have the specific and particular meanings they have had for hundreds (maybe thousands) of years (as expressed by the people who used those words to refer to themselves). And people who wish to create a different form of religion / spirituality / magic use can freely do so without rancor or confusion as to what these words mean.

Reactions anyone?

Edited to add this:

I had remembered wrong, it wasn't Wikipedia I was thinking of. Tim had said:

The Encyclopedia of Modern Witchcraft and Neo-Paganism comes very close to making that point by specifically stating the differences of British Wiccans (which are mostly Traditional) and American Wiccans... the author states that in the US that Wicca has come to be used as a general term to describe all Neopagan Witches or any religion which is "vaguely Witchcraft-like."

This seems to me to be a potentially very useful and valuable distinction (though the difference is more theological than geographic - there are also Traditionalists in the States, and Eclectics in England).

[KeaErisdottir]

I think that the thing that disturbs me most about Tim and Twinkle's comments, is the Baldur-like futility of the proposition.

ALL must agree, or there is no Wicca, because Wicca is a meaningless term, due to the antics of an old woman in a cave having a selfish moment.

Wicca is a religion of fairly vast diversity. Even many Traditionals accept those outside their Trads, and outside Trads in general to still be Wiccan if they still have enough points of commonality of belief. What they won't do is accept anyone who wants to self-identify, nor will they accept someone who is not an initiate of their own Trad, as a member of their trad.

Certainly, I can paw around and find someone Gardnerian group who didn't get the memo that Alexandrians are Wiccans, too. But please, if you're going to base this premise on the idea of all having to agree, then your argument doesn't have a valid premise in the first place--and like Loki disguised as the old woman who denied Baldur, the argument obstructs the process.

[Lunacie]

People have brought that up over and over on this thread... but Christianity, despite all the major differences, does have a common thread that links them all together... Jesus as Savior.

From what I was reading earlier today concerning the legal recognition of Wicca as a religion by the U.S. government and the U.S. military, Wicca is different than Christianity in that it doesn't have only ONE core tenet that links all the different traditions together. It has that WHOLE LIST of core tenets that Stormcat posted. As long as a group or a solitary agrees with the majority of those principles they are welcome to use the label of Wiccan. (And yes, some Wiccans feel that if you don't agree with all of those then you're not really a Wiccan - but you'll find discord and disagreement in any religion.)

[Lunacie]

So...there is nothing...no core tenet, no common thread that brings together all Wiccans despite the diversity.

Thank you for answering the question.

That's right, there isn't any ONE core tenet. The common thread is a whole list of tenets. As long as you agree with most of them you're entitled to call yourself Wiccan. But it's just not general Pagan nature to find a group that can agree on all of them, or place one at the top of the list in importance.


You can keep bleating that this is a problem, but that doesn't actually make it a problem for the rest of us.

[Twinkle]

I never said it was a problem....and I don't recall bleating or being rude to anyone, either.

What I did say is that there is no core tenet or common thread that unifies all of Wicca. You agreed and said that there is no core thread...but a list of tenets... as long as you agreed to most of the core tenets (which is still unclear as to what they are) then you're Wiccan. The Wiccans who disagree with you will just have to deal with the fact that others don't think they're Wiccan. I'm sure, however that they would have equally good reasons for why they are Wiccan.

That's how you see it...and that's fine with me.

I do have to say that Kaylara has a list of core tenets...and most of them I agree with.
That would make me Wiccan.....or at least able to call myself Wiccan....but that's not my path.

[Lunacie]

I never said it was a problem....and I don't recall bleating or being rude to anyone, either.

What I did say is that there is no core tenet or common thread that unifies all of Wicca.

You agreed....so, in my mind there is no problem.

I did NOT agree. There are several common threads, not A single thread.

This would be like you arguing that there is no one god in common among all Pagans to unify them. To which my response is that most Pagans recognize a great number of gods, but may pick only one or two to honor and worship.

[Twinkle]

I edited my post....I'm sorry that you didn't see it.

[Lunacie]

Well, there is no ONE core thread, there are several threads woven into a unique religion. Those threads are the core tenets which have been listed here, although it is true that some will weave in one or more extra threads - while others may leave out one ore more of those threads listed. And generally speaking it's a combination of the two.

It seems that I'm using the words 'thread' and 'tenet' in the same fasion while you're... not. I'm not sure I remember Kaylara's list, but I know I agree with the list that Stormcat posted - except I don't have the Wiccan Rede as a core tenet and I may have one or two that weren't on his list.

And not everyone who believes in Jesus in some fasion is necessarily a Christian.

[Twinkle]

I think that the thing that disturbs me most about Tim and Twinkle's comments, is the Baldur-like futility of the proposition.

ALL must agree, or there is no Wicca, because Wicca is a meaningless term, due to the antics of an old woman in a cave having a selfish moment.

Wicca is a religion of fairly vast diversity. Even many Traditionals accept those outside their Trads, and outside Trads in general to still be Wiccan if they still have enough points of commonality of belief. What they won't do is accept anyone who wants to self-identify, nor will they accept someone who is not an initiate of their own Trad, as a member of their trad.

Certainly, I can paw around and find someone Gardnerian group who didn't get the memo that Alexandrians are Wiccans, too. But please, if you're going to base this premise on the idea of all having to agree, then your argument doesn't have a valid premise in the first place--and like Loki disguised as the old woman who denied Baldur, the argument obstructs the process.

Honestly...it started out as a question. The responses were varied....which added to the confusion. That then led to the thought that Wicca is different things to different people...which led to the agreement that Wicca has no definition and no set core tenets which unified Wicca.

I then said that if there's no definition and no core tenets then anyone practicing anything can call it Wicca.

I'm told that's not the case...Wicca has core tenets.

I'm told that there are core tenets...but the lists I got did not agree with each other..at least on all points.

So then I asked if there was any common thread that unified Wicca. I was first told no...now I'm being told that that there's no single core tenet..but the core tenets are the common thread. If you agree with most then you're Wiccan.

I'm also told that it's not the beliefs, but the practice that is the core of Wicca.

The answers conflict...and lead me to ask more questions. I'm then told that I'm bleating that it's a problem. Why? Because I'm asking the questions?

I don't think it's a problem....I just think (and this thread proves)that Wicca means different things to different people...and for one to say they're Wiccan...Well I think one needs to clarify pretty quick what Wicca it is they're practicing...because it could lead to a lot of confusion.

I'm outside the path...but by agree with most of the core tenets (at least the ones Kaylara posted) it co-opts me as Wiccan even if that's not what I practice.


Not a problem....just an observation. And yet somehow it's perceived as me being an insipid bean counter, and what's the latest? Baldur-like.

Why? Because I'm asking questions that any intelligent person would want answered. I'm doing the responsible thing...trying to figure out what Wicca is before I start using the name to describe a person or a path.

[Lunacie]

I've never gotten upset with questions. What I referred to as bleating was the same statement "There is no core tenet in Wicca so therefore it's whatever you want it to be" over and over despite the answers to the contrary.

In those words and similar ones.

[Lunacie]

Honestly...it started out as a question. The responses were varied....which added to the confusion. That then led to the thought that Wicca is different things to different people...which led to the agreement that Wicca has no definition and no set core tenets which unified Wicca.

The main agreement on this seemed to be coming from those who were asking the questions, not those who were trying to answer them.

I then said that if there's no definition and no core tenets then anyone practicing anything can call it Wicca.

I'm told that's not the case...Wicca has core tenets.

I'm told that there are core tenets...but the lists I got did not agree with each other..at least on all points.

I went through Kaylara's list and Stormcat's list (if there was another I didn't see it) and Kaylara's list included all but 3 things on Stormcat's list, and she said her list was incomplete. Stormcat's list included 7 out of 8 of the things on Kaylara's list. That's pretty good for agreement. I agreed with everything on both lists (Kaylara listed an understanding of the principles behind initiation - not that one has to be initiated). And I still believe that the majority of Wiccans who have put any thought and effort into following the Wiccan religion would agree with most of the things on those lists.


So then I asked if there was any common thread that unified Wicca. I was first told no...now I'm being told that that there's no single core tenet..but the core tenets are the common thread. If you agree with most then you're Wiccan.

I'm also told that it's not the beliefs, but the practice that is the core of Wicca.

The answers conflict...and lead me to ask more questions. I'm then told that I'm bleating that it's a problem. Why? Because I'm asking the questions?

I'm not seeing the contradiction? And again, I don't have a problem with questions. I do have a problem with someone who asks questions and continues to say the same thing over and over despite the answers to those questions. I'm sorry that you're confused, that's a common thing, but the confusion has been created more from the proliferation of incorrect and incomplete information from people who are often just repeating the misinformation they have read or been taught - than from the fact that not all Wiccans agree about everything.

I don't think it's a problem....I just think (and this thread proves)that Wicca means different things to different people...and for one to say they're Wiccan...Well I think one needs to clarify pretty quick what Wicca it is they're practicing...because it could lead to a lot of confusion.

And that is certainly part of the problem. Every Wiccan uses the label of Wiccan, no matter which tradition they follow (or even no tradition at all) and there are some differences between those traditions. It would indeed be helpful if we made it clear that we're Gardnerian Wiccans or Faery Wiccans or Eclectic Wiccans or whatever.

I'm outside the path...but by agree with most of the core tenets (at least the ones Kaylara posted) it co-opts me as Wiccan even if that's not what I practice.

You will not be co-opted or assimilated just because you share some of the beliefs of Wicca. Nearly every religion in the world shares some version of "Do unto others" or "An it harm none", but that doesn't mean we belong to each and every one of them. If you feel the "description" of Wicca fits your beliefs and practices then you can call yourself a Wiccan... or not. It's your choice.

[Elderbush]

Yay! I've been saying that for several years now. If Wiccans would only identify their branch of Wicca, their references (point of view) makes so much more sense. Things can be true of a tradition and not true for the other traditions or solitaries - trad-specific in other words. Perhaps that is also confusing to people who do not see that the Wiccan trads as different, like denominations are within Christianity.

[Twinkle]

The main agreement on this seemed to be coming from those who were asking the questions, not those who were trying to answer them.

The main agreement posted by numerous people on this thread is that there is no one definition for Wicca that covers all Wiccans. It was stated over and over.

I went through Kaylara's list and Stormcat's list (if there was another I didn't see it) and Kaylara's list included all but 3 things on Stormcat's list, and she said her list was incomplete. Stormcat's list included 7 out of 8 of the things on Kaylara's list. That's pretty good for agreement. I agreed with everything on both lists (Kaylara listed an understanding of the principles behind initiation - not that one has to be initiated). And I still believe that the majority of Wiccans who have put any thought and effort into following the Wiccan religion would agree with most of the things on those lists.

Thought and effort....A solitary could read all of SRW's books and feel like they've put a lot of thought and effort into it....not knowing that they're not choosing the correct author...which, I'm guessing is Gardner....even though there's some controversy over that.


I'm not seeing the contradiction? And again, I don't have a problem with questions. I do have a problem with someone who asks questions and continues to say the same thing over and over despite the answers to those questions. I'm sorry that you're confused, that's a common thing, but the confusion has been created more from the proliferation of incorrect and incomplete information from people who are often just repeating the misinformation they have read or been taught - than from the fact that not all Wiccans agree about everything.

I'm confused because nothing so far has shown me that someone who sacrifices kittens can't not be a Wiccan. Even when I apply the core tenets of Wicca into it....if one agrees with most of those core tenants and most of the practices...there's nothing to say they're not.


And that is certainly part of the problem. Every Wiccan uses the label of Wiccan, no matter which tradition they follow (or even no tradition at all) and there are some differences between those traditions. It would indeed be helpful if we made it clear that we're Gardnerian Wiccans or Faery Wiccans or Eclectic Wiccans or whatever.

Agreed.


You will not be co-opted or assimilated just because you share some of the beliefs of Wicca. Nearly every religion in the world shares some version of "Do unto others" or "An it harm none", but that doesn't mean we belong to each and every one of them. If you feel the "description" of Wicca fits your beliefs and practices then you can call yourself a Wiccan... or not. It's your choice.


Maybe not...but other religions have sure co-opted Wicca. Christian Wicca, Shakti Wicca, etc, etc. Do they share the core tenets of Wicca? And yet so many Wiccans are up in arms about that. How can one argue (if they're so inclined) that Christian Wicca isn't Wicca if most the core tenets of what they believe agree?

Or does it just not matter?

[Tim]

I'm outside the path...but by agree with most of the core tenets (at least the ones Kaylara posted) it co-opts me as Wiccan even if that's not what I practice.

Well... I saw one list of tenets in the thread that was so general that almost any Pagan path could fall under it... probably why we see so many using the words Wicca and Pagan interchangeably and not comprehending the diversity of the community... but anyway, using that list, just change your label to Wiccan... that way you are no longer an outsider and they will be more tolerant of your arguments... if they don't accept you as Wiccan, challenge them to prove you're not.

[Twinkle]

Well... I saw one list of tenets in the thread that was so general that almost any Pagan path could fall under it... probably why we see so many using the words Wicca and Pagan interchangeably and not comprehending the diversity of the community... but anyway, using that list, just change your label to Wiccan... that way you are no longer an outsider and they will be more tolerant of your arguments... if they don't accept you as Wiccan, challenge them to prove you're not.

That's what I'm saying.

[Lunacie]

Well... I saw one list of tenets in the thread that was so general that almost any Pagan path could fall under it... probably why we see so many using the words Wicca and Pagan interchangeably and not comprehending the diversity of the community... but anyway, using that list, just change your label to Wiccan... that way you are no longer an outsider and they will be more tolerant of your arguments... if they don't accept you as Wiccan, challenge them to prove you're not.

There's a time when it's necessary to be specific and a time when it's not necessary. Perhaps that poster didn't feel it was necessary to be specific at that time.

You can always find a list somewhere that allows any beliefs and practices to be called Wicca, but not all of them are authentic, eh?

I don't have to prove whether someone else is Wiccan - or not Wiccan. If we don't agree on what is important as a Wiccan then we don't have to do any of the practices of Wicca together.

[Lunacie]

Maybe not...but other religions have sure co-opted Wicca. Christian Wicca, Shakti Wicca, etc, etc. Do they share the core tenets of Wicca? And yet so many Wiccans are up in arms about that. How can one argue (if they're so inclined) that Christian Wicca isn't Wicca if most the core tenets of what they believe agree?

Or does it just not matter?

I haven't really looked into any of those co-Wiccan religions. I suppose there are some blended traditions that do incorporate most of the core tenets of Wicca ~ just as there are probably some blended traditions that are a real mish-mash of both religions and are true to neither. Why should the blended traditions be any better OR any worse than the single tradtitions, some of which are faithful to the core tenets and some of which are laughed at for calling themselves Wiccan because they have very little in common with the core tenets?

[Lunacie]

Oh, and thanks for the discussion everyone. :)

I appreciate it when I have the opportunity to read what others truly think about a topic that interests me and get the chance to really examine what I truly think as well.

[Twinkle]

I haven't really looked into any of those co-Wiccan religions. I suppose there are some blended traditions that do incorporate most of the core tenets of Wicca ~ just as there are probably some blended traditions that are a real mish-mash of both religions and are true to neither. Why should the blended traditions be any better OR any worse than the single tradtitions, some of which are faithful to the core tenets and some of which are laughed at for calling themselves Wiccan because they have very little in common with the core tenets?


What it tells me is that Wicca has become more of a fluid belief system where anyone can incorporate anything into it and it still can be called. (insert name) Wicca.

If they proclaim that it agrees with at least some of the core tenets...then I guess it's Wicca.

[Tim]

I haven't really looked into any of those co-Wiccan religions. I suppose there are some blended traditions that do incorporate most of the core tenets of Wicca ~ just as there are probably some blended traditions that are a real mish-mash of both religions and are true to neither. Why should the blended traditions be any better OR any worse than the single tradtitions, some of which are faithful to the core tenets and some of which are laughed at for calling themselves Wiccan because they have very little in common with the core tenets?

I don't think the argument is that one is better or worse... just that they may not be Wicca. Look at it this way... take a cup worth of coffee and place it in a gallon pitcher... slowly start adding water... how much water can you add before its no longer coffee?

[Twinkle]

I don't think the argument is that one is better or worse... just that they may not be Wicca. Look at it this way... take a cup worth of coffee and place it in a gallon pitcher... slowly start adding water... how much water can you add before its no longer coffee?

If I'm interpreting what I've read here correctly...as long as some of the core tenets of Wicca are incorporated into the new religion....it's still coffee...even if it just looks like water with a hint of brown in it.

[Stormcat]

So...there is nothing...no core tenet, no common thread that brings together all Wiccans despite the diversity.

Thank you for answering the question.


Ummm..... no. Of course, it's likely you're idea of whom is Wiccan is quite different from mine. Thusly, I can understand your confusion.

[Stormcat]

I think we kinda touched on that earlier in the thread but it got passed over... that Wicca may be more a common methodology rather then a set of shared beliefs. It seems the most logical answer at this point... that or Twinkle is correct.


Methodology. Orthopraxic. Practice. Yes. Belief is personal, for the most part, but there are basic, shared tenets, which I posted, that are common to most practices that make them recognizably Wiccan.

[Twinkle]

Ummm..... no. Of course, it's likely you're idea of whom is Wiccan is quite different from mine. Thusly, I can understand your confusion.


Well..since I agree with most of the core tenets I can legitimately call myself Wiccan....

How am I confused?

[Little Billy]

Well, I guess the question I asked twice about 6 pages back just isn't worth answering.

http://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/gay.gif
http://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/mad.gifhttp://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/pipe.gif

LB,
Gives up and will henceforth maqke no effort to learn about Wicca.

[Stormcat]

I'm told that there are core tenets...but the lists I got did not agree with each other..at least on all points.


The only problem is that you are expecting an all or nothing deal, apparently. And you will not get it. You will not, now, or ever, get agreement on all points.

In saying this, you then try to assume that Wicca has no unifying thread. Which is incorrect. It has several, as Lunacie stated. But the explanations given apparently cannot get through the circular arguements and insistance on complete agreement. It does seem pointless to continue the discussion.

[Twinkle]

The only problem is that you are expecting an all or nothing deal, apparently. And you will not get it. You will not, now, or ever, get agreement on all points.

In saying this, you then try to assume that Wicca has no unifying thread. Which is incorrect. It has several, as Lunacie stated. But the explanations given apparently cannot get through the circular arguements and insistance on complete agreement. It does seem pointless to continue the discussion.

Well...I agree with the core tenets....they cover who I am and what I practice. That makes me Wiccan.

So really....we're on the same team, now.

[Twinkle]

Well, I guess the question I asked twice about 6 pages back just isn't worth answering.

http://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/gay.gif
http://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/mad.gifhttp://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/pipe.gif

LB,
Gives up and will henceforth maqke no effort to learn about Wicca.

Repeat your question, LB...maybe someone will answer you....

[Tim]

The only problem is that you are expecting an all or nothing deal, apparently. And you will not get it. You will not, now, or ever, get agreement on all points.

In saying this, you then try to assume that Wicca has no unifying thread. Which is incorrect. It has several, as Lunacie stated. But the explanations given apparently cannot get through the circular arguements and insistance on complete agreement. It does seem pointless to continue the discussion.

I think the point she was trying to make is that even a strict Hellenic Reconstructionist is Wiccan from what's been posted in reply to her questions.

[Stormcat]

Well..since I agree with most of the core tenets I can legitimately call myself Wiccan....

How am I confused?

How are you confused? Only you can answer that one. As to the first... again, it's practice. If you are PRACTICING those tenets, following the outline of ritual, etc, then yes, you could call yourself Wiccan.

[Stormcat]

I think the point she was trying to make is that even a strict Hellenic Reconstructionist is Wiccan from what's been posted in reply to her questions.

No, because a Hellenist Recon is practicing something totally different. Really, this isn't rocket science, and it shouldn't be this difficult to understand.

[Twinkle]

No, because a Hellenist Recon is practicing something totally different. Really, this isn't rocket science, and it shouldn't be this difficult to understand.


Well...according to the core tenets I'm not. So that makes me a Wiccan according to what you've posted.

[Stormcat]

Well, I guess the question I asked twice about 6 pages back just isn't worth answering.

http://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/gay.gif
http://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/mad.gifhttp://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/pipe.gif

LB,
Gives up and will henceforth maqke no effort to learn about Wicca.

Hah! Ask again. I didn't see it. The thread's been scrolling so fast.

[Stormcat]

Ok, you all have fun. I believe I'm done with the circles. I'm meeting myself coming and going. Lunacie, was a pleasure.

[Twinkle]

Well...I suppose one doesn't have to accept me as Wiccan...but certainly the diversity can be appreciated....

[Tim]

No, because a Hellenist Recon is practicing something totally different. Really, this isn't rocket science, and it shouldn't be this difficult to understand.

You said yourself... even using your list, that not every tenet needed to be followed... and the ones there have a good bit of flexibility... can you really make the argument that a Hellenic Reconstructionist is not Wicca using your tenets?

[Stormcat]

Well...according to the core tenets I'm not. So that makes me a Wiccan according to what you've posted.

This probably makes you a troll, actually. With all due respect. Enjoy.

[Twinkle]

This probably makes you a troll, actually. With all due respect. Enjoy.


I'm a troll because I challenge what you post.

Nice.

[Little Billy]

This probably makes you a troll, actually. With all due respect. Enjoy.

I happen to know Twinkle isn't a troll.

In fact, I can prove it. Link upon demand.

Jesus Chwist on a wubber cwutch, you guys bicker more than WE do, and we're SUPPOSED to.

[KeaErisdottir]

What it tells me is that Wicca has become more of a fluid belief system where anyone can incorporate anything into it and it still can be called. (insert name) Wicca.

If they proclaim that it agrees with at least some of the core tenets...then I guess it's Wicca.

No, it is spiritual misrepresentation and theft. Christian Wicca is being practiced by people too clueless to understand that there are ceremonial groups out there oriented specifically on their faith. They shove the Trinity into the Wiccan Paradigm out of sheer ignorance.

One of the "Hellenic Wicca" groups out there is run largely by Hellenists with no interest in Wiccan Mysteries, and no intent to do proper or strict syncretism, which is required for that to have a prayer or working correctly.

So poorly thought out co-opting of Wicca isn't Wicca. Invoking Jesus as the Horned God, or the Moon Goddess, ISN'T WIcca. No Wiccan will agree.

[Little Billy]

I'm a troll because I challenge what you post.

Nice.

It beats admitting she has no argument, I suppose.

Now, anyway, a question for the coven crowd...what if you're the only Wiccan in your region?

Does that mean you aren't a "real Wiccan", or just can't be in the religion at all?

[Twinkle]

No, it is spiritual misrepresentation and theft. Christian Wicca is being practiced by people too clueless to understand that there are ceremonial groups out there oriented specifically on their faith. They shove the Trinity into the Wiccan Paradigm out of sheer ignorance.

One of the "Hellenic Wicca" groups out there is run largely by Hellenists with no interest in Wiccan Mysteries, and no intent to do proper or strict syncretism, which is required for that to have a prayer or working correctly.

So poorly thought out co-opting of Wicca isn't Wicca. Invoking Jesus as the Horned God, or the Moon Goddess, ISN'T WIcca. No Wiccan will agree.


Thank you....that makes absolute sense to me.

[Tim]

No, it is spiritual misrepresentation and theft. Christian Wicca is being practiced by people too clueless to understand that there are ceremonial groups out there oriented specifically on their faith. They shove the Trinity into the Wiccan Paradigm out of sheer ignorance.

One of the "Hellenic Wicca" groups out there is run largely by Hellenists with no interest in Wiccan Mysteries, and no intent to do proper or strict syncretism, which is required for that to have a prayer or working correctly.

So poorly thought out co-opting of Wicca isn't Wicca. Invoking Jesus as the Horned God, or the Moon Goddess, ISN'T WIcca. No Wiccan will agree.


...nice to find someone that understand this.

[Xentor]

This probably makes you a troll, actually. With all due respect. Enjoy.

What respect?

#1 Rule
Rule 1 of 1: Respect your fellow community members.
That means for instance: discuss issues, not each other. No flaming, name calling, etc. You will be banned for abusing this rule.

[Carla O'Harris]

Invoking Jesus as the Horned God, or the Moon Goddess, ISN'T WIcca. No Wiccan will agree.

Actually, I do not have a problem with this, so long as it is done respectfully, and is coming from a Gnostic direction. Jesus was portrayed in medieval times as a stag. He frequently invokes agricultural metaphors of the harvest. He is a dying and rising god.

[Carla O'Harris]

Wicca is an agrarian, experiential Mystery religion based on witchcraft, with a reverance for, and adherence to, the cycles of nature. Wicca recognizes the immanence of deity as well as the polarity of deity, in so far as deity is both male and female. Most Wiccans recognize certain practices and/or beliefs as being intrinsic to Wicca. These are, but are not limited to:

Wiccan Rede - Not core, but is recognized in part by many practicioners as a basic guideline to follow

Law of Return/Law of Three/Law of Balance - All Wiccan practices should include something that addresses this. Be it balance, two-fold, three-fold, or ten-fold return, the concept of “you get what you send” is a necessary inclusion. Using the word ‘karma’ in a western philosophical sense is more in keeping with this idea.

Belief in Polytheism - Whether it’s a belief in each and every individual god and goddess, or just recognizing that Wiccan deities are necessarily male and female, two separate and distinct individuals/entities, polytheism is a must.

Wheel of the Year/Sabbats - The names don’t matter. There are four main Sabbats. Some use eight. A celebration/observation of the four main Sabbats are a requirement for Wiccan practice. The other four are merely an extension and do not negate this.

Belief in Deity - It’s rather hard to have a religion without the inclusion of worship and belief of Deity. As stated in the point of polytheism, Wicca uses the male and female concept of deity.

Witchcraft - Wicca, in it’s original state, began as a religion of Witchcraft. Whether one wishes to practice witchcraft or not, it is inextricably tied to Wicca's roots.

Wicca is a Mystery religion - The basics can be taught, be it through printed lessons or oral. Wicca must be experienced to be learned. The Mysteries will come. The Realization that all of Wicca is not taught and that some parts of it have to be experienced is another pivotal point that denotes Wiccan practice.

The Sacred Marriage, or the Great Rite - Whether practiced symbolically or in actuality, this is another core concept of Wicca. Circumstances and personal preference will dictate how this rite is approached. It is the joining of the God and the Goddess, death from life, and life from death. This rite is not to be confused with two people having sex. The ritual of Drawing Down the Moon as an invocatory proceeding is also a necessary part of the complete understanding of this ritual.

Individual Connection with Deity - Some people will wait for years before coming to this connection. We can only search, learn, and be open to recognize what They are trying to tell us. Given time, it will come. Some are very lucky in the fact that they have experienced this connection before ever coming to Wicca. Some will have the connection established within a very short time of learning about the deities. This is not necessarily a hinge point of Wicca, though it does help in other areas.

Personal Responsibility - This, in part, ties in with the Law of Return, but it goes a little further. You have to realize that what you do is your responsibility, and yours only. No one else is responsible for what you do other than you.

Constant Improvement - This applies to learning, studies, practices, yourself (both mentally and physically), your outlook, your faith, your understanding… the list goes on. If you have ever reached a stage that you think is absolute perfection, you have quit learning and growing. You have either gave up, died, or are no longer Wiccan.



*Applauds*

I'd also add the necessity of the libertarian ethic of "an ye harm none do what ye will".

[Carla O'Harris]

Obviously you're not Catholic...and you're making statements based on no knowledge whatsoever.

That statement is absolutely false.

Catholics believe that God sent an angel to Mary (a virgin) to ask her to give birth to the Savior of the World....Jesus Christ....the son of God....God made man. He's the core of the whole frickin' religion.

Catholics believe that Jesus was God made man...That he suffered, died and was buried to release the world from Sin. He will come again, to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.

That last little bit is from the Apostles Creed....The Creed is repeated at every Catholic Mass....

So you were saying?


Well, reality is somewhere in between. That there has been a Marian Cult in Catholic history, and that for some it overshadows other aspects of the religion is undeniable. That some of these manifestations have represented appropriations of pagan goddess-worship has been something argued by serious historians who have studied the field.

[Kaylara]

*Applauds*

I'd also add the necessity of the libertarian ethic of "an ye harm none do what ye will".

She mentioned it, but as I said before, it's not a core tenet of the religion. I already quoted Gardner and explained my stance on it, so I'm not going to bother rehashing it.

[Carla O'Harris]

I disagree. As an orientation and guideline, it is critical. It suggests that the orientation is towards betterment and healing rather than harming.

[Xentor]

Suggesting that those who go into war cannot be Wiccans?

[Carla O'Harris]

I don't get the sense that Gardner invoked the "harm none" principle in the strict sense of ahimsa. But I do think it was invoked as a general orientation, and his formulation thereof suggests a kind of libertarian ethic that suggests freedom within the rule of law. That rule of law includes the obligation to obstruct harm others may inflict.

We know that Gardner participated in WWII magically, as well as participating in defensive forces. But he may very well have seen this as a defensive war.

I am not going to issue nor presume to issue some sort of Wiccan bull on war. I do think the principle would disclude some kinds of war out and out. Others might be argued as to whether they were preventing greater harm.

But the conception of working within an orientation of freedom within a construct of respecting the rights of others (through not injuring them) seems like an important core concept to me.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

She mentioned it, but as I said before, it's not a core tenet of the religion. I already quoted Gardner and explained my stance on it, so I'm not going to bother rehashing it.

I agree. I actually, to be honest, think it's superfluous. I definitely don't think it's a core tenet.

[Carla O'Harris]

Why do you think it's superfluous? By that do you mean that it is already implied? If so, perhaps you and I have some region of possible agreement. That in itself could constitute some form of magic.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Well, if you go through the Old Laws, the sole reason given for 'harm none' is so that Christian folk will have no reason to suspect witchcraft (in the demonology sense) and consequently will stop trying to kill people for witchcraft. As this practice has essentially died out in the civilized world, the need for a 'harm none' policy has similarly perished.
I also think that most Wiccans are fairly moral people regardless of some poorly-written poem.

[Lunacie]

I don't think the argument is that one is better or worse... just that they may not be Wicca. Look at it this way... take a cup worth of coffee and place it in a gallon pitcher... slowly start adding water... how much water can you add before its no longer coffee?

Well, yeah, I posted that at bedtime - should have gone to bed instead. I've been saying all along that it's not about being right or wrong, being better or worse ~ just about whether it's got enough Wicca (or coffee) in it to still be called Wicca (or coffee). Great metaphor!

[Lunacie]

If I'm interpreting what I've read here correctly...as long as some of the core tenets of Wicca are incorporated into the new religion....it's still coffee...even if it just looks like water with a hint of brown in it.

Depends on how you define 'some'. Water with just a hint of brown is only coffee-flavored water (or coffee-colored maybe). So if there isn't enough of the core tenets then it's only Wiccan-flavored, not authentic original Wicca.

[Lunacie]

Well..since I agree with most of the core tenets I can legitimately call myself Wiccan....

How am I confused?

I covered this yesterday. If you agree with most of the core tenets and actually practice them then, yes, you can call yourself Wiccan... if you want to. But remember the discussion about how in Wicca the orthopraxy (practices) are more important than the orthodoxy (doctrine)?

Although I did go through a period when I considered myself a non-practicing Wiccan. I was still as Wiccan as I'd been before, but I wasn't doing much with it.


p.s. the practices were pretty well defined by Gardner.

[Twinkle]

Depends on how you define 'some'. Water with just a hint of brown is only coffee-flavored water (or coffee-colored maybe). So if there isn't enough of the core tenets then it's only Wiccan-flavored, not authentic original Wicca.


Thanks, Lunacie. It makes sense....and the immediate thought I had was, how much is some? Is one of the core tenets enough? Two, or three of them? Or is it based on importance?

So what would you think would be the most important of the core tenets to agree with and practice to be a Wiccan?

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

I might add that I went and had a look at Kaylara's 'core tenets' and find I agree with all of them.

[Lunacie]

Well, I guess the question I asked twice about 6 pages back just isn't worth answering.

http://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/gay.gif
http://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/mad.gifhttp://bbs.whofailedtoday.com/img/smilies/pipe.gif

LB,
Gives up and will henceforth maqke no effort to learn about Wicca.

This question?
I wasn't sure what you were asking and thought maybe someone else would answer you. I think the concensus so far has been that a solitary (no matter where they live) can actually be a Wiccan if they share the beliefs and keep studying and learning and do the practices. Erm, IF that's what you were asking?

(http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2798218#post2798218)SO, what happens to a Wiccan in Christianville,... (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2798218#post2798218)

SO, what happens to a Wiccan in Christianville, Georgia?

"Sorry, there's only one of you. You can't be in our religion."

Jebus. Sounds like Calvinism. (http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2798218#post2798218)

[Lunacie]

Thanks, Lunacie. It makes sense....and the immediate thought I had was, how much is some? Is one of the core tenets enough? Two, or three of them? Or is it based on importance?

So what would you think would be the most important of the core tenets to agree with and practice to be a Wiccan?

I guess that's where personal discernment comes in. For some people following half of the core tenets literally and understanding the reasoning behind the other half would be good enough to give someone the nod. But for many it takes more than that to get their respect as a fellow Wiccan.

I don't think we can list the core tenets in order of importance any more than the Christians can list the 10 Commandments in order of importance - there will be little agreement over which is most important. Again, that comes down to personal discernment.

And really, I think it may depend on where each of us in our personal spiritual journeys which is most important to us, so that it changes from time to time.




I do believe the Wiccan Rede is an important principle in following the Wiccan Religion but that it's not actually one of the core tenets that Wicca was based on.

[KeaErisdottir]

...nice to find someone that understand this.

Most (blank) Wicca isn't, simply because you have to have all the Mysteries of Wicca present for it to even be Wicca. Oh, and the (blank) is usually done sloppily, without regard for the actual meanings within the parent. Proper syncretism take -years- to do right.

[KeaErisdottir]

I don't think we can list the core tenets in order of importance any more than the Christians can list the 10 Commandments in order of importance - there will be little agreement over which is most important. Again, that comes down to personal discernment.


Actually, the 10 Commandments ARE listed in order of importance.

[Twinkle]

I guess that's where personal discernment comes in. For some people following half of the core tenets literally and understanding the reasoning behind the other half would be good enough to give someone the nod. But for many it takes more than that to get their respect as a fellow Wiccan.

I don't think we can list the core tenets in order of importance any more than the Christians can list the 10 Commandments in order of importance - there will be little agreement over which is most important. Again, that comes down to personal discernment.

And really, I think it may depend on where each of us in our personal spiritual journeys which is most important to us, so that it changes from time to time.




I do believe the Wiccan Rede is an important principle in following the Wiccan Religion but that it's not actually one of the core tenets that Wicca was based on.


Ok.....

So to be Wiccan must have an academic understanding of the core tenets...but at the same time they are subjective......spiritual maturity and personal discernment play a large role as to what the most important tenets are and how they are utilized in one's belief system.

Is that what you're saying?

[Twinkle]

Actually, the 10 Commandments ARE listed in order of importance.

True....but to be fair....even a Catholic priest will argue as to what the most important Commandment is....I've heard many a sermon about that.

[Kaylara]

I don't get the sense that Gardner invoked the "harm none" principle in the strict sense of ahimsa. But I do think it was invoked as a general orientation, and his formulation thereof suggests a kind of libertarian ethic that suggests freedom within the rule of law. That rule of law includes the obligation to obstruct harm others may inflict.

We know that Gardner participated in WWII magically, as well as participating in defensive forces. But he may very well have seen this as a defensive war.

I am not going to issue nor presume to issue some sort of Wiccan bull on war. I do think the principle would disclude some kinds of war out and out. Others might be argued as to whether they were preventing greater harm.

But the conception of working within an orientation of freedom within a construct of respecting the rights of others (through not injuring them) seems like an important core concept to me.

REPOSTED:

The passage from "The Meaning of Witchcraft" is as follows:

"[Witches] are inclined to the morality of the legendary Good King Pausol, "Do what you like so long as you harm no one".

I grabbed that from http://www.waningmoon.com/ethics/rede4.shtml but unfortunately don't have the specific page number to refer you to. [Edited to add: it's on page 127 of my copy.]


Ah ok. But after that he says:

"But they believe a certain law to be important, "You must no use magic for anything which will cause harm to anyone, and if, to prevent a greater wrong being done, you must discommode someone, you must do it only in a way which will abate the harm." This involves every magical action being discussed first, to see that it can do no damage, and this induces a habit of mind to consider well the results of one's actions, especially upon others... "


97. But when one of our oppressors die, or even be sick, ever is the cry, "This be Witche's malice," and the hunt is up again. And though they slay ten of their own to one of ours, still they care not. They have countless thousands. While we are few indeed so be it ordained that none shall use the art in any way to do ill to any.

98. However they may injure us, harm none. And nowtimes may believe we exist not. 99. That this Law shall ever continue to help us in our plight, no one, however great an injury or injustice they receive may use the art in any way to do ill, or harm any. But they may, after great considerations with all, use the art to restrain Christians from harming us, but only to constrain them and never to punish.
-----------

105. Never accept money for the use of the art, for money ever smeareth the taker. 'Tis sorcerers and conjurers and the priests of the Christains who ever accept money for the use of their arts. And they sell pardons to let men escape from their sins.
106. Be not as these. If you accept no money, you will be free from the temptation to use the art for evil causes.
107. All may use the art for their own advantage or for the advantage of the craft only if you are sure you harm none.
108. But ever let the Coven debate this at length. Only if all are satisfied that none may be harmed, may the art be used.
109. If it is not possible to achieve your ends one way, perchance the aim may be achieved by acting in a different way so as to harm none. MAY THE CURSE OF THE GODDESS BE ON ANY WHO BREAKETH THIS LAW. So be it ordained.







8) Calling oneself "Witch" does not make a Witch - but neither does heredity itself, not the collecting of titles, degrees, and initiations. A Witch seeks to control the forces within her/himself that make life possible in order to live wisely and well with no harm to others and in harmony with Nature.

In all of these things (save the Gardner quote, and even that is only mentioned in passing.), harming none has not been the first, and most important part of being Wiccan. It's mentioned a little bit, towards the end of the statement.

If the people who started Wicca put so little emphasis on this thing, then why in the world should I put it as a core tenet?

[Carla O'Harris]

Ummm, perhaps we're interpreting this differently, but I see a great emphasis on it, and in fact, when I read that the curse of the goddess shall be upon whomever doesn't follow that, it seems a little serious to me.

[Kaylara]

The emphasis is only there because I'm not publishing the total of the texts I'm citing. I'm citing these particular passages. Gardner's quote encompasses one paragraph on page 127 and is actually in reference to other religion's concepts of Sin. And that is the totality of what he says in reference to harming none.

The harming none thing similarly comes late in the Traditional Laws, the total text of which I will be happy to post here (if requested) to see what exactly they think are more important than harming none. And, the curse of the Goddess is not exactly harming none, is it?

[Carla O'Harris]

Actually, I'd argue that the "curse of the goddess" is an indication of just how seriously she takes the no-harm principle.

[KeaErisdottir]

True....but to be fair....even a Catholic priest will argue as to what the most important Commandment is....I've heard many a sermon about that.

It would occur to me, at that point, that it is worth wondering why the priest considered it important to dicker with that order, and what the agenda was. If he then uses his pulpit to make everyone thing they are supposed to be in a different order, then he is the one who has gone outside the lines of the religion, and into hubris.

[Twinkle]

It would occur to me, at that point, that it is worth wondering why the priest considered it important to dicker with that order, and what the agenda was. If he then uses his pulpit to make everyone thing they are supposed to be in a different order, then he is the one who has gone outside the lines of the religion, and into hubris.


I don't disagree....

[Ben Gruagach]

It would occur to me, at that point, that it is worth wondering why the priest considered it important to dicker with that order, and what the agenda was. If he then uses his pulpit to make everyone thing they are supposed to be in a different order, then he is the one who has gone outside the lines of the religion, and into hubris.

One of the big differences though is that the majority (if not all) of Christian groups are structured with central authorities in place. The Roman Catholics for instance have the Pope, and all Christians have some version of the Bible which they consider their religious foundation.

Wicca doesn't have authorities other than the ones within specific denominations (and then those authorities are only for those denominations), and we don't have anything like an authoritative Holy Scripture. The Book of Shadows is rarely identical between individual practitioners let alone between denominations.

[Kaylara]

Actually, I'd argue that the "curse of the goddess" is an indication of just how seriously she takes the no-harm principle.

And I'd argue that the behavior that would cause the retaliation is what would gain someone the curse of the goddess. Which still seems pretty damn "anti-harm none" to me. I mean, does that really make sense? Harm none, or I'll harm you! Seems to show to me that personal responsibility for ones actions is more important than a flat across the board 'don't hurt anyone!' statement. Infact the Traditional Laws seem to explain that you shouldn't hurt anyone because it will cause the Inquisition to come down on your head.

[Ben Gruagach]

Another reason why the "harm none" admonishments in the Old Laws might not be considered core to Wicca is that the Old Laws themselves were introduced by Gardner only around 1956 or 1957 in response to a conflict he was having with Doreen Valiente and a few others in the coven.

Doreen and the other "older ones" in the coven disagreed with Gardner and ended up leaving his coven. (Doreen later reconciled with Gardner as a friend in the 1960s although I don't know if she ever circled with him again after the split.)

Doreen writes about the whole issue in her book "The Rebirth of Witchcraft," and Fred Lamond provides his own input on it in "Fifty Years of Wicca." (Both were members of Gardner's coven when the Old Laws were introduced.)

[Meabh23]

It is important to remember that much of what we attrtibute to the goddesses and gods is actually more of a coded metaphor for human interactions with the world and the resulting consequences. In this light the curse of the Goddess can be taken to speak to cause and effect. Quite unambiguously, if you seek to harm another one, you definitely set up the chain of reactions that will lead to higher chances of some adverse result. This is simply how things work. The Curse is useful in that it can stand in as a metaphor for those who are unsure of divinity's inherent separate existence, as well as being accepted as literal by those who are fully theistic and believe that gods would regulate human behavior.

I don't subscribe to the view that gods would regulate our behavior per se. However, when you dedicate yourself, or align yourself, to a particular god or goddess, you are inviting that god or goddess into your life and the resulting interactions, advice, and certain regulations of behavior necessary for a successful relationship. Much like getting to know another person.

I have already pointed out my stance on the "Harm None" advice in another thread. The gist of it was that a blanket pacifist "harm no one at all ever" would be morally wrong when faced with those with intentions to harm or violate either you or someone else within your view. In my opinion, that harm none ever is a mistunderstanding of the Rede itself. We shouldn't seek to cause harm for it's own sake, and therefore when our actions do not cause harm, we are free to do as we wish. However, sometimes harm is necessary in instances of self-defense, or defense of another, against an aggressor. We must remember that blanket pacifism actually puts attackers on a moral equivalency with their victims and then precedes to assume that defense is wrong or "judgmental." This allows the aggressor to use the pacifist's scruples as another weapon of destruction.

In danger of going off topic, I will say that though I admire human beings' quest for peace and for a non violent world, and I believe it is possible to make such a thing come about, it will not happen through pacifism, which I feel is a dangerous delusion. Look at Tibet. The only reason it still exists today is because of the very forceful resistance groups, some of which either use or threaten to use violence in defense. This reality is quite unlike the majority world's view which thinks of the Dalai Lama and the Tibet cause as pacifist. I personally believe pacifism for Tibet works right not only as a tactic against an aggressor who can annihilate Tibetans easily. When the tables turn, so will the need to use other tactics. Another issue I have with pacifism is that it's most repsected proponent, Gandhi, was a religious dogmatist who believed that somehow if the Jews had committed mass suicide, it would have been more effective in stopping Hitler. So pacifism's major weapon is suicide?

Back to the topic: I certainly understand the argument over legitimacy and authenticity with Wicca, but I feel that cannot be so neatly applied to the solitary/group argument. What matters is religious practice and beliefs. What about those Wiccans who were coven based but moved on to being solitary? What about solitaries who show more of a personal grounding in Wicca then some coven members? I understand why we would look to being anxious over the rapid growth in numbers of solitary Wiccans because of the silly or spurious images that such may cause mainstream society to have of us, but still we cannot allow ourselves to think that solitaries can not be "genuine."
To do so would be a grievous prejudice.

As in all things, it may be necessary to get to know the concerned inidvidual first, before we make any judgments about their Wiccan authenticity. This is a double edge sword, because it also means we don't take any claims they may make until we get to know them.

[Carla O'Harris]

We shouldn't seek to cause harm for it's own sake, and therefore when our actions do not cause harm, we are free to do as we wish.


I think it is very important to affirm this principle, and I am glad to see it affirmed.

However, sometimes harm is necessary in instances of self-defense, or defense of another, against an aggressor.

Agreed. But it is important to consider proportionality in response. It is also important to remember that figuring out who done wrong first in conflicts is often very difficult to sort out. (Sometimes it is very clear.) One must also be savvy about the dynamics of blood feuds.

Again, I am not trying to identify the harm none principle with ahimsa, but with respect for the rights of others under the rule of law, a libertarian ethic that seeks to not injure. Perhaps it might be considered a non-aggression ethic, even if defensive actions must sometimes be taken. On the other hand, the principle wouldn't in theory be incompatible for someone drawn to the ethic of satyagraha, so long as in their own way they appropriately resisted and countered others' attempts to harm.

But I guess where it gets fairly hazy is that while I can understand these points on a physical level, I'm not sure in what situations they would be necessary on a magical level. In many cases in old Europe the response to a malevolent witch who had cursed you was to beat them up. (I'm not suggesting violence against witches.) If someone is doing you harm, can't you physically or legally defend yourself? And -- if one chooses to use magic -- in what spirit is one countering the force -- with unchecked rage and malevolence? Does the violating behavior of another justify the release of all our antisocial impulses? Or is the force countered appropriately? Imaginatively? Aren't there ways of doing so that reduce harm to a minimum? Gardner speaks to this.

[Lunacie]

Actually, the 10 Commandments ARE listed in order of importance.

I was a Christian for many years and never heard anything of this. Could you please explain where this idea comes from?

[Twinkle]

What I've been taught is that the supreme law..at least for Catholics...is the first one...You shall have no other gods before me.

It's the whole premise of the Christian God...the one supreme God that supercedes all the others....It's what made Christians different from many of the pagans at that time. It also means that we are slaves to no other thing...whether that be material wants, or whatever. The focus is on God....and that's it. God always comes first.

This is what I was taught all through my Catholic grammar and Highschool education.

[Snapdragon]

How did a discussion about whether solitary Wiccans are real Wiccans turn into a discussion about--once again, folks--that other religion's lore, rules, etc., etc.?

As to the topic thread: I don't doubt that here (on this board) as elsewhere, there is at least one person who not only can but will tell anyone foolish enough to listen, just who is and is not "real." I suggest that one of the ways to tell a "real" witch is that genuine witches do not let others do their thinking for them.

Just a thought.

[Twinkle]

How did a discussion about whether solitary Wiccans are real Wiccans turn into a discussion about--once again, folks--that other religion's lore, rules, etc., etc.?

As to the topic thread: I don't doubt that here (on this board) as elsewhere, there is at least one person who not only can but will tell anyone foolish enough to listen, just who is and is not "real." I suggest that one of the ways to tell a "real" witch is that genuine witches do not let others do their thinking for them.

Just a thought.

Well...it's a really long thread and you may not have read through it all...but there was a reason for the whole Christianity/Wicca comparison.....We were discussing Core tenets and Central Authority.

As to your other comment....I don't think that anyone here would label anyone's beliefs as invalid....just that they may not be Wicca.

[Tim]

How did a discussion about whether solitary Wiccans are real Wiccans turn into a discussion about--once again, folks--that other religion's lore, rules, etc., etc.

To answer the question if solitary Wiccans are real Wiccans, one must first be able to say what a real Wiccan is... it devolved from there.

[Stormcat]

First an apology. I let a circular arguement that lead back to a repetitive question that seemed so redundant as to border on badgering get to me, so I apologize for likening this behavior to being possibly trollish.

Second, since Wicca is orthopraxic, so long as someone is following the beliefs and tenets of Wicca, then they are Wiccan. It doesn't matter if the Wiccan is solitary or coven-based. Many coven based Wiccans have a private, solitary practice, and has been stated, many Solitaries were once coven-based, or at some point move into a coven.

As to the questions regarding belief making one Wiccan. Ix-nay on that. Belief is important, but it is practice which makes one Wiccan. Many pagan religions hold common beliefs, but their practices vary widely. The Asatruar does not practice Wiccan rituals, nor do Reconstructionists. A circle, while common, is not the same in all paths. The same with the cycle of seasons. These are not celebrated in the same manner all across the board.

Everyone's beliefs and spiritual paths are valid. They just aren't all the same. What makes the Asatruar unique? Or the Hellenist? We are all pagans, but we all have different, unique, practices that make us different from each other.

[Kaylara]

Everyone's beliefs and spiritual paths are valid. They just aren't all the same. What makes the Asatruar unique? Or the Hellenist? We are all pagans, but we all have different, unique, practices that make us different from each other.

I never said anyone's path or practice was invalid. I said you can't just do whatever you want and call it Wicca.

[Twinkle]

First an apology. I let a circular arguement that lead back to a repetitive question that seemed so redundant as to border on badgering get to me, so I apologize for likening this behavior to being possibly trollish.

Second, since Wicca is orthopraxic, so long as someone is following the beliefs and tenets of Wicca, then they are Wiccan. It doesn't matter if the Wiccan is solitary or coven-based. Many coven based Wiccans have a private, solitary practice, and has been stated, many Solitaries were once coven-based, or at some point move into a coven.

As to the questions regarding belief making one Wiccan. Ix-nay on that. Belief is important, but it is practice which makes one Wiccan. Many pagan religions hold common beliefs, but their practices vary widely. The Asatruar does not practice Wiccan rituals, nor do Reconstructionists. A circle, while common, is not the same in all paths. The same with the cycle of seasons. These are not celebrated in the same manner all across the board.

Everyone's beliefs and spiritual paths are valid. They just aren't all the same. What makes the Asatruar unique? Or the Hellenist? We are all pagans, but we all have different, unique, practices that make us different from each other.


That's the whole point of my argument. All paths are different...all are unique. My whole thing is don't call something Wicca if it's not Wicca.<