Are people praying to the god of war?

[celtica]

Are people praying to the/a god of war these days? With the state of affairs that have been going on I wonder if multitudes of people are praying "protect us from the enemy," and/or "destroy our enemy." And by doing so are either purposefully praying to the/a god of war, or are unknowingly praying to the/a god of war.

Any thoughts?

[Toby Stimpson]

I have a question for you....are one's actions and feelings necessarily representative of the Religion, or casts onto that religion? I do not see Jesus Christ as a God of war, only his followers have been.

[David19]

I don't think people are praying to a god of war (although i know there are a few Hellenic Reconstructionist's who worship Ares), but that war is a part of the universe.

On a Aztec Reconstructionist (http://www.amoxtli.org/cuezali/iam.html)site, one quote i think is a good one, it's:

Necessity of Conflict: I believe that conflict is a universal principle that is necessary for the health of the universe. Such conflicts may be between universal forces, deities, and even mankind. However, in regards to mankind, this idea of conflict being a universal principle does not apply to the petty reasons that cause conflicts all too often between various groups of humanity. Rather, it is meant to imply that experiencing conflicts of some variety is a natural part of existing in this universe, and that without conflict, stagnation would occur. For example, I do not believe that war is evil or wrong, nor that it's existence will ever truly cease being a part of being human. However, many of the reasons behind wars are foolish or immoral, and many of the results of wars are deeply unfortunate. I see this more as the result of human frailty than the nature of war itself being corrupt

Like the author, i believe that sometimes war's will happen whether we like it or not (plus i'm sure even if world peace was going to come about, the war gods of each pantheon would have something to say, lol).

[LadyCelt]

Maybe throughout time they've prayed to war type gods but war and "enemies" are nothing new.

[ILOVEAUTUMNS]

masculine driven relgion makes people value war, judgement, and competition so in a sense yes they are praying to the god of war...
the three main organized religions to be exact

[ILOVEAUTUMNS]

I do not see Jesus Christ as a God of war, only his followers have been.


As long as humans view god as male there will be war... there is a whole book on returning to Goddess Worship or at least recognizing Goddess essence,
(Restoring the Goddess by Barbara G. Walker)
this lacks in the middle east and look at how they act!!!!!!!!!
They view women as cows and their male god as something to defend with war :(

Goddess worshipers view the life bearers (women) as wonderful and view the present earthly life as the most valuable
(while god worshipers view the afterlife as more valuable and just rape our mother earth as they do our women)

If we are ever to progress as a society organized religion needs a makeover
Goddess Religion come back to the earth fill our lives with peace as you did before males took over and viewed god as a male entity in the sky based on judgements and competition (ie hell for example)

[David19]

As long as humans view god as male there will be war... there is a whole book on returning to Goddess Worship or at least recognizing Goddess essence,
(Restoring the Goddess by Barbara G. Walker)
this lacks in the middle east and look at how they act!!!!!!!!!
They view women as cows and their male god as something to defend with war :(

Goddess worshipers view the life bearers (women) as wonderful and view the present earthly life as the most valuable
(while god worshipers view the afterlife as more valuable and just rape our mother earth as they do our women)

If we are ever to progress as a society organized religion needs a makeover
Goddess Religion come back to the earth fill our lives with peace as you did before males took over and viewed god as a male entity in the sky based on judgements and competition (ie hell for example)

Actually, there are a lot of goddess's associated with war, Inanna, for example, from the Sumerian religion, is associated with war, Athene is a goddess of wisdom and war, she is a warrior goddess.

Also, you should know that there is no evidence for a 'goddess centred, matriarchial religon', also there's Enyo (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/enyo.html), a Greek goddess of war, and who, apparantly, loved to see her 'own blood run'.

I think Wicca for the Rest of us (http://wicca.timerift.net/)has some great articles on these topics, women (http://wicca.timerift.net/pagan_women.html), matriarchy (http://wicca.timerift.net/matriarchal.html), and the 'Old religion' (http://wicca.timerift.net/old.html).

Like on wicca for the rest of us, i doubt that even if 'the goddess' religion came 'back' and women 'got control' that the world would be better, since there are lots of female bigots, female homophobes, murderers, pediphiles, etc. I find the claim that women and war 'don't mix' more patriarchical, because women can be great soldiers, and warriors, Athene is probably a good example of that.

Also, the comment about the Middle East is wrong, since while, now women may be looked upon as 2nd class citizens (or worse), in ancient times, women had a lot of power (initate divorce, own land, etc), also Europe was just as patriarchial (Romans wanted women kept veiled, that's one of the main reasons why Christian's became patriarchical, Christianity was, originally, the feminist revolution in the Roman Empire).

[David19]

Goddess worshipers view the life bearers (women) as wonderful and view the present earthly life as the most valuable
(while god worshipers view the afterlife as more valuable and just rape our mother earth as they do our women)

No offence, but i haven't seen all Christian's/Muslims and Jews, raping every woman, and 'our women' implies that women are some kind of seperate 'species', women are just as capable of evil as men, there were female nazi's, who helped capture and kill Jews. (men and women are both equal, in every single way).

[Toby Stimpson]

As long as humans view god as male there will be war... there is a whole book on returning to Goddess Worship or at least recognizing Goddess essence,
(Restoring the Goddess by Barbara G. Walker)
this lacks in the middle east and look at how they act!!!!!!!!!
They view women as cows and their male god as something to defend with war :(

Goddess worshipers view the life bearers (women) as wonderful and view the present earthly life as the most valuable
(while god worshipers view the afterlife as more valuable and just rape our mother earth as they do our women)

If we are ever to progress as a society organized religion needs a makeover
Goddess Religion come back to the earth fill our lives with peace as you did before males took over and viewed god as a male entity in the sky based on judgements and competition (ie hell for example)


With respect...what book did you get that from? My dear the gender of the Deity means nothing in the grand scheme of things...and if someone makes an issue of it (such as followers of Christ insisting God is male, or Goddess worshippers insisting that God is female)...I think you are making very negetive stereotypical generalizations and I for one do not appreciate them.

Also, your example of females being looked at as Cows is wrong...the metaphor my dear is that as cows are life givers and nourishers for the community...so too are women lifegivers and backbones of a community...and thats more South east asia than anything else right now. The current Islamic extremists have as little to do with Allah than an area which has been a war zone for thousanbds of years merely becasue of it's geographic location.

[Cain]

Exactly. While I don't exactly worship them, I look up to the Goddesses Eris/Enyo* and Athena as examplar examples of how to wage war. Both were crafty and prudent, one was agressive and the other coldly strategic. I value those character traits highly.



*Homer doesn't appear to distinguish between them so it is possible the same deity is being described under another name.

[Arion]

As long as humans view god as male there will be war... there is a whole book on returning to Goddess Worship or at least recognizing Goddess essence,
(Restoring the Goddess by Barbara G. Walker)
this lacks in the middle east and look at how they act!!!!!!!!!
They view women as cows and their male god as something to defend with war :(

Goddess worshipers view the life bearers (women) as wonderful and view the present earthly life as the most valuable
(while god worshipers view the afterlife as more valuable and just rape our mother earth as they do our women)

If we are ever to progress as a society organized religion needs a makeover
Goddess Religion come back to the earth fill our lives with peace as you did before males took over and viewed god as a male entity in the sky based on judgements and competition (ie hell for example)

Autumn, the truth is I agree with you. Male-centred spirituality always tends to be rather violent and repressive. i don't think it has anything to do with male gods vs female gods. The gender of poltheistic gods don't really matter, they are personifications of genderless forces of nature, so they can be male or female and it doesnt really matter.

The gender of the ultimate creative power is unknowable, beyond any earthly perceptions of "male" and "female". Some call it a female because females create life in their bodies, and since life is created in the uinverse, it is a metaphor for a mother. I'm sorry to say (being male myself) but I think women are better in touch with their emotions, and with their psychic senses. Men can be the same, don't get me wrong, but since women are the earthly manifestations of the life-bearing power, perhaps they are more in touch with the infinite divine? "Male" is brought forth from "female," she who is the original ground of being. That-which-is-brought-forth drifts away from Her and loses touch with his emotions, intution and becomes aggressive and violent, becoming "masculine". But all these are human characteristics. Divinity is perfection, beyond male or female, but using a male image to worship could (and evidently, has) lead to people being emphasizing their aggressive, war-driven natures, because that is how we see males in our society. If we see God as male, than that must mean that human males are like God, so let's all be more like them, and exaggerate their nature. It's a disaster.

And as Autumn said, look at the 3 male-worshipping religions in the world, Judaism/Christianity/Islam, they are ALWAYS fighting with each other. Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism are relatively peaceful, but the 3 patriarchal monotheists love to fight with each other. I'm no psychologist, but it does seem to mean something.

[Amber Wynd]

Also, you should know that there is no evidence for a 'goddess centred, matriarchial religon', also there's Enyo (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/e/enyo.html), a Greek goddess of war, and who, apparantly, loved to see her 'own blood run'.

Yes, Enyo was the sister of Ares. Her Roman counterpart is Bellona, the goddess of war. She is also associated with Eris. Sometimes they are portrayed as sisters, and more often they're considered to be seperate aspects of the same goddess. It was Eris who began the Trojan War and as Enyo she rode to the battle with Ares. Here's a quote from The Fall of Troy, Book XI:

"For Strife and deadly Enyo in their midst
Stalked, like the fell Erinyes to behold,
Breathing destruction from their lips like flame.
Beside them raged the ruthless-hearted Fates
Fiercely"

And Cain has written a beautiful hymn to Eris in which he says:

"Oh Eris! Many call you Discordia,
Many Strife. Everywhere he has many a name
But I call her Enyo, as did my ancestors."

You can read the rest of his hymn here: http://www.sssbella.com/hymntoeris.php

[Athena-Nadine]

Well, I pray to Athene every day and she is a War goddess. I also pray to Ares as the occasion warrants. But none of my gods are are all sweetness and light, and I am a Recon, not a follower of a "goddess religion" (which I do not think of Wicca as being, ftr).

[Cain]

Autumn, the truth is I agree with you. Male-centred spirituality always tends to be rather violent and repressive. i don't think it has anything to do with male gods vs female gods. The gender of poltheistic gods don't really matter, they are personifications of genderless forces of nature, so they can be male or female and it doesnt really matter.

The gender of the ultimate creative power is unknowable, beyond any earthly perceptions of "male" and "female". Some call it a female because females create life in their bodies, and since life is created in the uinverse, it is a metaphor for a mother. I'm sorry to say (being male myself) but I think women are better in touch with their emotions, and with their psychic senses. Men can be the same, don't get me wrong, but since women are the earthly manifestations of the life-bearing power, perhaps they are more in touch with the infinite divine? "Male" is brought forth from "female," she who is the original ground of being. That-which-is-brought-forth drifts away from Her and loses touch with his emotions, intution and becomes aggressive and violent, becoming "masculine". But all these are human characteristics. Divinity is perfection, beyond male or female, but using a male image to worship could (and evidently, has) lead to people being emphasizing their aggressive, war-driven natures, because that is how we see males in our society. If we see God as male, than that must mean that human males are like God, so let's all be more like them, and exaggerate their nature. It's a disaster.

And as Autumn said, look at the 3 male-worshipping religions in the world, Judaism/Christianity/Islam, they are ALWAYS fighting with each other. Religions like Hinduism and Buddhism are relatively peaceful, but the 3 patriarchal monotheists love to fight with each other. I'm no psychologist, but it does seem to mean something.

What is this, gender stereotyping day or something? The three monotheistic religions are violent because they are monotheistic (and because its people that join them, more importantly). Dealing with the idea there is only one being, who is apparently both loving and forgiving yet responsible for so much evil in the world is enough to give everyone cognitive dissonance. And we all know what happens then...its got nothing to do with the gender whatsoever. Women can be as violent as men, look at the female leaders of the UK, Israel and India for a historical reference. Its just society doesnt want them to be that way, or certain segments rather, because they can then start asserting their independence.

[PeatBog]

There's some correlation between male testosterone levels and aggression. Ever heard of "rhoid rage"? Most women are less aggressive. As for nazi women killing jews, I doubt they worshiped Gaia.

[Cain]

There's some correlation between male testosterone levels and aggression. Ever heard of "rhoid rage"? Most women are less aggressive. As for nazi women killing jews, I doubt they worshiped Gaia.

There is a hell of alot of societal conditioning too, for women to appear non-violent. Women have shown themselves to be at least as capable as men when it comes to applied violence, despite that. Men are more aggressive, but aggression does not equal violence. I can be as aggro as anyone and not lay a finger on the subject of my "attack".

[PeatBog]

I'd rather meet a strange woman in a dark alley.

[Cain]

Not if I had trained them in self defence you wouldn't...those chicks are brutal....

[PeatBog]

LOL, yeah, there's some tough women out there, but more inclined to strike only in self-defense. I wouldn't want to meet Ann Coulter in a dark alley either, but I don't think she qualifies as female.

[banondraig]

LOL, yeah, there's some tough women out there, but more inclined to strike only in self-defense. I wouldn't want to meet Ann Coulter in a dark alley either, but I don't think she qualifies as female.

:lol: are you sure she even qualifies as human?

[PeatBog]

cromagnon, maybe? :thewave:

[RakliDipity]

Just to elaborate on what Cain mentioned, the only female Prime Minister of the UK- Margaret Thatcher refused to give in the demands from IRA prisoners who were on hunger strike, subsequently they died. She despatched the Royal Navy to assist in the Falklands war. Those are just a few of her actions.
If you want to read more about her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher
Also, she was a mother around the time she came into power

[Arion]

What is this, gender stereotyping day or something? The three monotheistic religions are violent because they are monotheistic (and because its people that join them, more importantly). Dealing with the idea there is only one being, who is apparently both loving and forgiving yet responsible for so much evil in the world is enough to give everyone cognitive dissonance. And we all know what happens then...its got nothing to do with the gender whatsoever. Women can be as violent as men, look at the female leaders of the UK, Israel and India for a historical reference. Its just society doesnt want them to be that way, or certain segments rather, because they can then start asserting their independence.
Usually I would agree that gender stereotyping is not a good thing to do. I'm a guy and nothing about me is masculine. I'm the biggest queer on earth, so I can certainly sympathize with the genders being put into boxes on how each should behave.

That being said, I still do think that men are more prone to destructive behaviors. I learned in a law class that I was taking that men who possess an extra Y chromosome were more likely to be criminals, the Y chromosome being the one that distinguishes male from female. So these men with an extra "male" chromosome, are the ones causing the most damage to society. I certainly think there are differences between the sexes, and it doesn't do an good to pretend there is not. Women certainly aren't perfect either, but in general I think they are more balanced.

Also, female war goddesses tend to be different from gods. A goddess liek Athena seems pretty sensible about violence and would only tolerate it when necessary. Inanna and Kali would be violent for a higher purpose, like protection or slaying demons. War gods just seem to be violent for sport and entertainment.

[_Banbha_]

Just to elaborate on what Cain mentioned, the only female Prime Minister of the UK- Margaret Thatcher refused to give in the demands from IRA prisoners who were on hunger strike, subsequently they died. She despatched the Royal Navy to assist in the Falklands war. Those are just a few of her actions.
If you want to read more about her: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Thatcher
Also, she was a mother around the time she came into powerShe was a case of overcompensating behavior.

[Toby Stimpson]

It is very dangerous to make assumption about gender...any assumptions. Lets look at this from both sides and points of view...

Ok, so a 'societal' view of women is that they are meek and nonviolent. Is this true?

A sociatal view of men is that they are strong and aggresive...is this true?

In anthropology, everyone knows that culture and societies change rapidly, however the slowest part of culture to change is ofcourse tradition and religion which always affects the growth and change of a people. But! Society does change and evolve.

Also looking at anthropology, a patriarchy dominated culture will ofcourse affect it's religion and as a result some aspects of what could be seen to be a "Goddess" and what could be considered a "God" are affected by cultural definitions, norms, beliefs and in essence changes the Deity's character in that culture. Like wise a Matriarchal system will also affect those deities and religion...

Now several arguments have been raised in regards to gender...however who here can absiolutly say and give a definition of a gender without stereotyping, generalizing, or placing a specific moral overtone onto that gender? I for one can't...and I have studied in all of my sociology classes this for the better half of a year.

Other arguments have been raised as to what a monotheistic "Goddess oriented culture" would be as opposed to examples of monotheistic "God oriented cultures."

Others have used science with their arguments to say that men are more aggresive than women...and draw the conclusion that a goddess worshipping people or simply more women in power would be much more admirable than some cultures and religions we have now.

....


Now taking all of this into consideration...where do we see fault here? I see fault in the fact that people are making rash generalizations with topics that are very complex...and also I dont think a lot of people are looking at the genders but society's views and conditionings of what a gender is...which really isnt the truth at all is it. I mean Im from the UK and I live in canada now, and when I look at my culture's definition of what a male should be, i see a very stiff upper lip, emotionless and supposedly strong role...and yet when you look at other 'western' countries like Italy for example...the stereotype of an Italian man is that of a very expressive emotional person. If you look at the supposed role of what it is to be male in lets say Punjabi culture, they are to be respectful yet strong and in some cases domineering....

yet, THESE ARE ALL STEREOTYPES AND SOCIAL CONDITIONS!

I also would just like to say I dont think half the world would appreciate being called "them" and have assumptions made about that portion of the world. Rememebr now in the west that our media is quite quite skewed and has been set up that way for a long time so we dont see on the news many life affirming things coming from the middle east, we only see the conflict...which only is happening in a portion not the entirety.

Anyways...my point is dont make assumptions and generalizations based on no fact or little information.

Namaste

Tobias

[Amber Wynd]

I'm not comfortable with gender stereotyping either. And I have to agree that nobody likes to be referred to as "them". My own life experience has been that both genders are capable of great kindness, as well as great violence.

[Green]

I do pray to one because lately I have found it necessary.

[Meadhbh]

There are plenty of war Goddesses as well:

Agasaya, Anahita, Anath, Andraste, Ankt, Anouke, Ashtart, Athena, Badb, Bellona, Enyo, Eshara, Inanna, Korrawi, Menhit, Minerva, Morrigan, Nanaja, Neith, Sakhmet, Zroya.

Try telling anyone of these lovely ladies that they are less of a ruler of war than the boys. Gender has nothing to do with a persons attitude towards war and peace. I pray to war goddesses and gods because wither we like it or not war is something that happens. Its always been that way and it is an importaint part of the balance of the universe, if we had nothing to compare peace to we won't know what it was and peace as an ideal to strive for would no longer exist in the form it is now. Without that balance things would go hay wire and who knows what would happen.

[Sage Rainsong]

:rant: Wow these gender stereotypes, extremely poor history, and scholarship really piss me off. How anyone in this day and age can say women= good, life giving qualities and men= bad, destructive qualities is far beyond me. It's just so completely rediculous that I am literally at a loss for words.

If we are ever to progress as a society organized religion needs a makeover
Goddess Religion come back to the earth fill our lives with peace as you did before males took over and viewed god as a male entity in the sky based on judgements and competition (ie hell for example)

First of all you have no proof that this actually happened. All you have to go on is the terrible and obviously biased "historian" Barbara Walker. Second; How exactly will oppressing so called male qualities, and thus I am assuming men, be better or more divinely sanctioned than men oppressing women? Why does that seem like such a good thing? Perhaps this may appeal to angry feminists (fyi I am NOT speaking about all feminsts, in fact I consider myself one) with daddy issues but I doubt that it would appeal to most women. You seriously need to read some better history books and some real mythology; especially information on war Goddesses. Reverse sexism is not equality.

Usually I would agree that gender stereotyping is not a good thing to do. I'm a guy and nothing about me is masculine. I'm the biggest queer on earth, so I can certainly sympathize with the genders being put into boxes on how each should behave.

That being said, I still do think that men are more prone to destructive behaviors.

Okay so, if gender stereotyping is not a good thing to do then why are you doing it? Seriously, what is up with your contradictory statements? Why is it bad to stereotype and then say men are more prone to violence? Im quite sure that if I said that gay people are better suited for being make up artists because they have more estrogen and thus more like females (i'm gay mind you so obviously I don't agree), you would be pissed off. If Im wrong and you do agree with the statement,then I feel sorry for you. You can let some overzealous feminazis bully you into feeling sorry for being born with a penis but I'm certainly not.





Personally I think that the main cause of religious violence is one way thinking. What I mean by that is people believe that there is only one way to look at divinity and thus reality. People who think that way need to destroy opposing viewpoints in order to maintain that way of thinking. Anyway that is my two cents.

[Philosophia]

As a feminist I have to say:
Don't box women into a gender sterotype. Women can be vicious, manipulative, and will kill if they have to. This is a major problem most feminists have, the discrimination by the courts and governments on defining laws via gender.
Its those sterotypes (i.e. women are weak, passive, etc.) that hurts the feminist movement and discredits women.
I have a *lot* of respect for Athena, but one of my primary Goddesses is Minerva. She's a war goddess but also an intelligent strategist.

[Athena-Nadine]

As a feminist I have to say:
Don't box women into a gender sterotype. Women can be vicious, manipulative, and will kill if they have to. This is a major problem most feminists have, the discrimination by the courts and governments on defining laws via gender.
Its those sterotypes (i.e. women are weak, passive, etc.) that hurts the feminist movement and discredits women.

Agreed. Well said!

I have a *lot* of respect for Athena, but one of my primary Goddesses is Minerva. She's a war goddess but also an intelligent strategist.

It's interesting that you say that since Athene is the goddes of war in the strategic sense, not just war itself. While She is no stranger to blood lust, that, along with the berzerker apspects of war are generally Ares' domain. :) Athene and Minerva have many common traits. I suppose that is why they have often been treated as the same goddess (a habit that I don't care for).

[Philosophia]

Agreed. Well said!

Thanks! *blushes*

It's interesting that you say that since Athene is the goddes of war in the strategic sense, not just war itself. While She is no stranger to blood lust, that, along with the berzerker apspects of war are generally Ares' domain. :) Athene and Minerva have many common traits. I suppose that is shy they have often been treated as the same goddess (a habit that I don't care for).

I agree. I also don't like the line of thought that Athena and Minerva are the same Goddess. While I have a deep respect for Athena, Minerva is a goddess I am very close too.
:hugz:

[Cain]

Athena rates highly in my books for her strategic mind. I'm a big fan of cunning and thinking ahead.

[Ptah]

There's some correlation between male testosterone levels and aggression. Ever heard of "rhoid rage"?

Ever heard of menopause?

Most women are less aggressive.

Ever met a pagan woman?

As for nazi women killing jews, I doubt they worshiped Gaia.

In Mein Kampf Hitler talks about "the hand of the goddess of eternal justice" and "the Goddess of Suffering". While the Nazis had no (known to me) war goddess they did have a polytheistc belief. One of the propaganda tools they used was to make the German people believe in and practice "the ancient ways". Those ancient Teutonic ways included an earth goddess named Nerthus.

[laserhazel]

Are people praying to the/a god of war these days? With the state of affairs that have been going on I wonder if multitudes of people are praying "protect us from the enemy," and/or "destroy our enemy." And by doing so are either purposefully praying to the/a god of war, or are unknowingly praying to the/a god of war.

Any thoughts?

I thought the exact same thought about 4 years ago. It made perfect sense. It seemed to me that people were so totally praying to the god of war instead of the god of peace. The thing that I was not taking into consideration was the amount of people who are ascending and holding a constant focus on peace. There are far more people interested in creating peace than war.

[PeatBog]

Ever heard of menopause?

Yeah, and PMS, too, LOL. I guess I really stuck my foot in my mouth judging by the response. I grew up with older sisters, and had some tough and ornery women bosses and schoolmasters, too. So what was I thinking?! Well, for one, after thousands of years of patriarchal rule, I'd be willing to give "the girls" a whirl at the helm. :) The men-in-charge don't seem to have a handle on the situation. Secondly, I have an image of Gaia as being so untouchably peaceful. This isn't completely true, of course. Mother Nature gets destructive. For me myself, being violent or mean or cruel isn't the same thing as being tough or strong though. (It's possible to be both strong and gentle, like the tarot card Strength.)Anyhow, everyone's unique! Many women can be violent and mean and nasty, too. Some of my former bosses were women, in fact.

(( peatbog hopes he hasn't stuck his foot even deeper :imout: ))

[Cerulean_damselfly]

Last week I remember that I heard an interview of a minister (Christian) on National Public Radio who was responding to a question of 'war' and people asking "how can God let this happen?" His answer--if I remember it right, seemed to say, "Why blame the almighty for a human-made event? Who caused this human tragedy? My belief is that He (the Divinity) is among the first who is weeping when the first soldiers die..."

I might be wrong, but that is what I remember hearing. And my small opinion follows...

My own thought was not that someone was worshipping war or war divinities--but that the mistaken belief in this century was from some leaders who thought that they had the right to send other humans--usually the young--to another place and in harm's way to carry the leadership's 'belief'. I thought in the more ancient cultures, the leaders who choose to wage war marched in front and were there to inspire their troops to the justness of their cause.

I'm not excusing the leadership's judgement--but I am thinking that if a leader or group of leaders are so convinced of their cause being right to wage violence, maybe it would be best to show their conviction to be right there, on the front lines of battle--to show they really believe what they are doing is right.

A suggested alternative--which is probably not practical in all solutions, but would be one to consider to end wrongs and to gain solutions to terrible injustice--such as M. Gandhi's civil disobedience--which

"helped to end which led India to independence, and has inspired movements for civil rights and freedom across the world. Gandhi is commonly known and addressed in India and across the world as Mahatma Gandhi..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

Perhaps this would be the equivalent to 'praying to the god of peace'--to meditate and try to think of ways to win justice by peaceful means rather than warmongering choices.

I hope my ideas aren't too far off the discussed subject of this thread...and my thoughts might be way too off or not relevant. My examples or suggestions could be too vague or just too old and naive. If so, I'd be glad to hear or be redirected to read someone's ideas more closely,

Best regards,

Cerulean_Damselfly

[Little Billy]

I thought the exact same thought about 4 years ago. It made perfect sense. It seemed to me that people were so totally praying to the god of war instead of the god of peace. The thing that I was not taking into consideration was the amount of people who are ascending and holding a constant focus on peace. There are far more people interested in creating peace than war.

On the other hand, there is a time to pray to a God of war...for example, WWII. Then there were REAL monsters to fight.

Of course, that was then, and this is now.

[Garm]

The trick aquired by some dessert tribes of empowering their patron war diety by making it consubstansial with the Creator/rix has caused the very notion of a "God of War" to become kinda redundant.

It was a successful spell in the short run, but there seem to have been some long term consequences.

[argento_occhi]

That being said, I still do think that men are more prone to destructive behaviors. I learned in a law class that I was taking that men who possess an extra Y chromosome were more likely to be criminals, the Y chromosome being the one that distinguishes male from female. So these men with an extra "male" chromosome, are the ones causing the most damage to society. I certainly think there are differences between the sexes, and it doesn't do an good to pretend there is not. Women certainly aren't perfect either, but in general I think they are more balanced.


As someone who's studied this in my Genetics class, I'd like to point out that originally came from a survey of 197 inmates in 1965. Research since has shown that there's no strong link that 47,XYY males are more prone to aggressive behaviour than 46,XY males. Indeed, most 47,XYY males can lead normal lives. Just wanted to clarify that.

Argent,
the genetics freak.

[Theres]

The trick aquired by some dessert tribes of empowering their patron war diety by making it consubstansial with the Creator/rix has caused the very notion of a "God of War" to become kinda redundant.

ummmmm... dessert tribes!
i want to be initiated into the creme brulee' tribe myself, but any chocolate bretheren would be welcome on our turf!

:hahugh:

[Arion]

As someone who's studied this in my Genetics class, I'd like to point out that originally came from a survey of 197 inmates in 1965. Research since has shown that there's no strong link that 47,XYY males are more prone to aggressive behaviour than 46,XY males. Indeed, most 47,XYY males can lead normal lives. Just wanted to clarify that.

Argent,
the genetics freak.
Haha. Thanks for clarifying, it's always good to know the facts.

Okay so, if gender stereotyping is not a good thing to do then why are you doing it? Seriously, what is up with your contradictory statements? Why is it bad to stereotype and then say men are more prone to violence? Im quite sure that if I said that gay people are better suited for being make up artists because they have more estrogen and thus more like females (i'm gay mind you so obviously I don't agree), you would be pissed off. If Im wrong and you do agree with the statement,then I feel sorry for you. You can let some overzealous feminazis bully you into feeling sorry for being born with a penis but I'm certainly not.
Ouch, buddy, that was harsh. It's not that I'm trying to stereotype, I'm just going with my own observations, as Autumn is too I'm sure. To tell us that our opinions are wrong and invalid strikes me as being just as ignorant as you say we are. I have had a lot of bad experiences with straight males and significantly less with females. I observe how they males and females act and form a generalization based on what I see. I don't know whether its biological or societal, but there is a difference in mainstream society. Non-mainstream people don't seem to be as concerned with what is "male" and what is "female" so it probably is just society. When it comes down to it, gender is fluid and we can be either or, but I guess males and females have acquired specific roles over time, and they are hard things to shake.

[Feroxyhite]

Yahweh started as a god of war. Something of that must still be there... He's always been his strongest when war comes about.

[Sage Rainsong]

To tell us that our opinions are wrong and invalid strikes me as being just as ignorant as you say we are. I have had a lot of bad experiences with straight males and significantly less with females.

Well, having an opposing view doesn't not make me ignorant. I understand the argument. You certainly have the right to your opinion but I just very much disagree. Personally I have a habit of going off the deep end when I hear stereotypes because I have experienced them, mostly from women and other gay men. One time, one of my friends introduced me to her mother as her gay friend, Jason. The first thing that she said to me was; where should I hang this plant? I guess since I'm gay, I should know about interior design. Also many gay men have questioned my sexual orientation because I am not stereotypical. So maybe I came off a little harsh, but I'm not sorry for my opinion.

[Toby Stimpson]

I agree with Rainsong...I mean no body can truly say generalized statements about anyone group of people or else it is always open to becoming a stereotype. I think also a lot of people assume statements about gender are true merely because everyone else in society seem to think that way...seem to think, not definitly think. But the distinction must be made clear that there is a difference, a huge difference between sexual orientation and gender....and to truly start to appreciate the two sit down with soemone who is biological male but identifies as lesbian female...and just chat with them about that and also how stereotyping genders have impacted on their lives. In some ways society a thousand years ago needed specific roles becasue the emphasis on the community was greater, and times were more rough. there were demons in the woods and God's wrath could come at any moment...through crop failures or war. There needed to be some kind of 'order' as there were for thousands of years before...the old story of hunter gatherers where the women were mostly gatherers and men hunters. The advent of soem societies and religions that mistreated women were perhaps by products of the unstable time. Now that we live in a 'more stable age' we as individuals are more focussed on the individual and so that invalidates any gender role we had before. But yeah, I would be just very careful on taking a side when it coems to stereotyping becasue there are so many things attached to it that yto gainb a truly comprehensive answer would inevitably fail becasue as Purplepanther said gender identity is fluid...not concrete.

[lia_amberwolf]

*rant: on*

okay... if we're talking about males vs. females and you look at how it has progressed... back in the day, sure, femaled may have been nice and loving and caring... but today they are JUST as heartless, cold, and vindictive as men. so it's not fair to group them into catagories and have this totally pointless and rather pitiful gender war... im noticing this more and more in the pagan community and it's really starting to bother me. the women are constantly saying "if we go back to goddess worship, everything will be all rainbows and butterflies'... i have two words for you... Bull sh*t. it's got nothing to do with the devine... PEOPLE did this, so lets put credit where credit is due.

you may also say that it may be because the PEOPLE dont worship the goddess. (see above "two words"), ever heard of kali? durga? athena? morrigan? there are just as many destructive and death-bringing goddesses out there as there are gods. so, even if we get away from the patriarchial religions the PEOPLE would still have an excuse to bring about war... and even in christianity (mind you, im not a christian), the doctrine preaches peace... it's the people who jumble it up...


as for praying to a war god/dess my patron god is Ares. but he came to me in a different way than history portrays him... he came to me as the drive to achieve my ambitions to fight for what i believe in, and to not let myself be a victim of anyone elses unhappiness (particularly my own).

do i pray about actual war? no. because regardless of what we do, humans will be humans... and i have serious respect for the people out there fighting right now... it's not their fault they were called to "defend"... and it's not bush's either (im not a bush fan, mind you)... sure it's fun the blame the guy on top for everything, but when it boils down to it, it's OUR fault. the president cannot wage war... but the people who can WE put them in that position. so dont blame the government... dont blame the president... if you want someone to blame, blame yourselves... and sure, we screwed up... we put those people in office that are fighting a pointless war... but all we can do now is wait for 2008 and remember this when we go to the polls.

*rant: off*

[Arion]

Well, having an opposing view doesn't not make me ignorant. I understand the argument. You certainly have the right to your opinion but I just very much disagree. Personally I have a habit of going off the deep end when I hear stereotypes because I have experienced them, mostly from women and other gay men. One time, one of my friends introduced me to her mother as her gay friend, Jason. The first thing that she said to me was; where should I hang this plant? I guess since I'm gay, I should know about interior design. Also many gay men have questioned my sexual orientation because I am not stereotypical. So maybe I came off a little harsh, but I'm not sorry for my opinion.
Fair enough. Looking back at my other posts, I'm a bit embarrassed, lol. i mean, I meant most of what I said, but the way I articulated it was wrong and of course it gives off the wrong impression. I don't actually think men are destructive and woman are creative only. I just exaggerated things to get my point across, of how patriarchal society and male gender roles (not men specifically) have a somewhat negative affect on our culture. My goal wasn't to stereotype, but I suppose it came off pretty stereotypical.

I hear ya when it comes to gay stereotypes, that's for sure. When I first came out to one fo my friends, the first thing she said was "omg i always wanted a gay friend. we have to go shopping." Love her dearly, but really...

Another friend refers to one group of her acquaintances as her "gay friends" which annoys me too. She is bisexual herself, so I don't know why she seperates people based on their sexual preference like that.

[morningstar2651]

I have a question for you....are one's actions and feelings necessarily representative of the Religion, or casts onto that religion? I do not see Jesus Christ as a God of war, only his followers have been.
Then they probably ought not call their self Christian, because Christian literally means "little Christ".

Then again, the meaning of Christian has been changed drastically over time to mean someone that believes in specific doctrine regarding Jesus rather than someone that follows the example of Jesus.

[PeatBog]

Perhaps the main point of this thread was derailed by discussing human gender issues. Throughout Celtic myth, the king's rule is benign so long as he is united with the goddess Sovereignty, that is, the land. When the king and goddess splinter, so does the king's land go to waste. Anyhow, maybe what could be sought after is a balance of god and goddess, like in Taoism. The main monotheisms tend to shun the goddess. (Just an idea, hope it's not offensive.)

[Toby Stimpson]

Perhaps the main point of this thread was derailed by discussing human gender issues. Throughout Celtic myth, the king's rule is benign so long as he is united with the goddess Sovereignty, that is, the land. When the king and goddess splinter, so does the king's land go to waste. Anyhow, maybe what could be sought after is a balance of god and goddess, like in Taoism. The main monotheisms tend to shun the goddess. (Just an idea, hope it's not offensive.)

I dont think it was derailed at alll...the main issue at the heart of the Goddess vs God idea here IS Humanity's inadequate sensitivity to gender issues...as we prescribe Gender to the very gods we worship, it is at the heart of this issue.

[PeatBog]

But does it really require a female ruler to connect with the goddess? This sounds like a false alternative, and stereotyping. It seems like ILA's original intent was only to identify that having a reverence for the yang, and ignoring the yin, like some monotheisms seem to do, can result in imbalance. Lao Tsu said know the yang, guard the yin. I don't think Lao Tsu has to be female to understand this so a discussion of human gender issues actually detracts from the core of ILA's question. I don't think the question itself is sexist. Monotheism, if and when it shuns the goddess, is sexist, which perhaps was the intended discussion topic.

[Evelline]

Well, I have a best friend who's parton goddess, is Kali, goddess of battle,and she HATES WAR.