is this a pagan symbol?

[iucey]

this symbol is call heartagram

Originally a logo of "Love Metal" band, HIM, whose fans would wear the symbol --within a circle

but the one i saw are without the circle are they the same?

[Toby Stimpson]

Nope, it's calld a Heartagram, i asked the same question a few months ago...and any variation of that is the same thing...a fabricated symbol for their band.

[cartweel]

Most recently I've been seeing the symbol on tennis shoes. I don't know if the shoes have a connection to the band, though; I'm thinking that maybe they're now simply marketing the symbol as a symbol?

Me no no.

[Ben Gruagach]

Any symbol can be adopted and used by Pagans. Does that make it a Pagan symbol?

What if modern Pagans invent them?

[iucey]

yesterday when i was out with my friends,
i saw a group of people all dresed in black...
T-shirts, pants, long black skirt (editd)
one of them wear a shirt printed with that another with a inverted pentacle shirt.

one of them wear pentacle, inverted cross..

shall i classific them as pagans too or?
:confused:

[Zelan]

it's kind of comforting to be able to distiguish, by sight, someones likeness, or ilk if you prefer; but many pagans and wiccans that I know or have known don't associtiate themselves with certain styles or symbols. Makes it kind of hard to tell one way or another.

[iucey]

:confused:
you mean pagans and wiccans dressed that way?

[Ben Gruagach]

shall i classific them as pagans too or?
:confused:

Why classify other people at all based on outward appearances? If you really want to know if they are Pagan or not the only way to know is to politely ask them.

[Toby Stimpson]

THANKYOU Ben! Its really quite silly I think to generalize and create stereotypes based on outward appearance. I mean really the only was, as Ben said, was to ask them...becasue the truth is some people just wear symbols becasue they think it's cool...or wear symbols that we may not be familiar with and have little to do with Paganism. I mean black isnt *just* a Pagan color...and sometimes a generalization can become a biassed stereotype that just is wrong.....mind you, I do know a whole lot of littlew teenage wiccans who think wearing black is the pagan thing to do and go run around their little town pretending to be all dark *shakes head and sighs* Im working on them about that gahhhh haha

[iucey]

i agree...
but i didn't want to ask them...

i tried once and that girl said " why do you bother?"
after i explain to her, she say "i'm interested but i see no point talking to you" -.-"

sometimes people make such comment
"you mean you're a witch? there's really witch?"
"can you fly on broom stick? "
"oh you're evil, you believe in satan!!"
"what can you do? "
"can you cast spells?"

[Æon Flux]

Why classify other people at all based on outward appearances? If you really want to know if they are Pagan or not the only way to know is to politely ask them.

Agreed.

As for the heartagram. If you want to put any pagan and religious meaning into it, that's entirely up to you. After all, symbols mean different things to different peoples.
But as for it's origin... it's about... 9 years old and was designed by the lead singer of H.I.M: Ville Valo. It's actually cool to see a symbol so casually designed by a guy on his birthday take on this kind of effect all around the world.

It is understandable that it might seem like a pagan symbol, and considtering the fact that Ville basically views himself more as a Pagan then anything else... ah... anyway. Enough of my Ville rambelings. Being someone who loves H.I.M's music, I'll be stuck rambling forever about this if I do not shut up now.

[Kalika]

If you want to put any pagan and religious meaning into it, that's entirely up to you. After all, symbols mean different things to different peoples.
.

She is absolutely right. A symbol is what you make of it.

It is also good to note, in another way, that you should not assume that a person is a pagan, wiccan, witch, etc - based upon symbols they are wearing. (Including pentacles/pentagrams)

Just because it is a common symbol amongst pagans, does not mean that all people who wear it are pagans. :)

Just a warning to be careful where you tread with things like that. I've made the mistake before, and its rather... embarassing, to say the least. :lol:

[Slyph]

I love Ville. It's good to see a guy who's not all that great looking carry themselves with such unmistakeable charisma. He has a real prescence on stage. He's sexy out of raw personallity and should definately be a role model to your average angsting low-self-esteem adolescent. As a nicotene junkie however his admittedly very sexy smoking bothers me a bit.

Oh as for the symbol. Not pagan. Sorry

Strange story about symbols and HIM. I wore an inverse pentagram to one of their gigs once and a double-breasted suit jacket. Met some bloke who was wearing a non-inverse pentagram and a double breasted suit jacket with added studs. He looked like my light-side clone

[Cynyr]

this symbol is call heartagram

Originally a logo of "Love Metal" band, HIM, whose fans would wear the symbol --within a circle

but the one i saw are without the circle are they the same?

Nope, that's a styleized pentagram which has been adopted by "HIM".

C

[Toby Stimpson]

I hate to disagree...but only half of it lookings like a Pentagram...and that doesnt make it remotely anything to do with paganism.

[Morrigan_Wolfwind]

It's not pagan. I personally think it's overused; I saw one day in the locker rooms that my friend's friend drew it on her Converse.

I actually got a tad insulted when I saw that symbol in Hot Topic; originally I thought someone had decided to just make a half-heart pentacle/pentagram, and to be honest I think it's rather effeminate. I have no clue why.

But I mean no offense to anyone who likes "HIM." I think one of my friends likes that band, I'll ask her about it tomorrow.

[Silvan]

A good first stop for this kind of question is this:

http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/blsymbols.htm

[teishabee]

So if you wear a pentragram your pagan?

So what about its representations of the 5 wounds of christ of the cross....

[dragoncrone]

So what about its representations of the 5 wounds of christ of the cross....

...systematically turned every pagan symbol, rite or holiday they encountered into their own point of reference.

[Toby Stimpson]

I hate to say it but the Pentagram is not exclusibvly a pagan symbol...its used in hinduism in some sects...in judaism...and christinaity evben though its not commonly used...I would have to disagree with you dragoncrone that Christians 'systematicly changed' things and symbols for their own uses...its half true but also half false as it was adaptation.

[Cynyr]

I hate to say it but the Pentagram is not exclusibvly a pagan symbol...its used in hinduism in some sects...in judaism...and christinaity evben though its not commonly used...I would have to disagree with you dragoncrone that Christians 'systematicly changed' things and symbols for their own uses...its half true but also half false as it was adaptation.


Yeah? Try to get a fundi to explian how easter rabbits and easter eggs - symbols of fertility - represent the resurrection!!

[Toby Stimpson]

Yeah? Try to get a fundi to explian how easter rabbits and easter eggs - symbols of fertility - represent the resurrection!!

Cynyr...how clever of you...you tried to bring down my argument with ONE example out of many...how very clever....perhaps next time you could use a vague statement as a defence.....in any situation there will be a few examples, I am talking generally...and also rabbits and easter eggs and the like ARE NOT NEOPAGAN symbols...we dont use them and erm hun...the egg is actually very well a christian symbol becasue it is a product of the chicken but at the same time it it's self is a chick...just as Jesus is a part of God, but God in his own right...please offer me a better argument before trying to debate with me, I would enjoy a fair debate better with you :).

[LordHelmet]

He does have a point though....

As far as what people are wearing you also have to figure in the crowd that wears stuff that they think looks cool. And for many of those people if it's something that their parents or teachers might think was demonic or disturbing, that item becomes ULTRA COOL!

So you have pentagrams, black clothes, skulls, spikes, ankhs, piercings, and all sorts of other stuff that in itself doesn't really mean anything if you wear it. Some of these characters will get a knife, sit around a fire, and pretend to be 'satanic'. A lot of the types that do this stuff are the usual suspects when it comes to who needs to be made fun of.

[Cynyr]

Cynyr...how clever of you...you tried to bring down my argument with ONE example out of many...how very clever....perhaps next time you could use a vague statement as a defence.....in any situation there will be a few examples, I am talking generally...and also rabbits and easter eggs and the like ARE NOT NEOPAGAN symbols...we dont use them and erm hun...the egg is actually very well a christian symbol becasue it is a product of the chicken but at the same time it it's self is a chick...just as Jesus is a part of God, but God in his own right...please offer me a better argument before trying to debate with me, I would enjoy a fair debate better with you :).

And how condescending and arrogant of you to jump into my neck with your self aggrandising all wiser than all attitude. Please!! The Easter (Ishtar) holiday was indeed borrowed from Pagan rituals when the War monging Church all but obliterated every last vestige of any civilization that didn't convert in an attempt to spread it's power and save our souls (ha!). The act of borrowing made conversion easier on the converts. The so called Christmas Tree, Yule Log, all the trappings of a religion only a mere 2000 years old, all taken by conquest. There is no argument to be made honey bunny, it happened.

[Toby Stimpson]

And how condescending and arrogant of you to jump into my neck with your self aggrandising all wiser than all attitude. Please!! The Easter (Ishtar) holiday was indeed borrowed from Pagan rituals when the War monging Church all but obliterated every last vestige of any civilization that didn't convert in an attempt to spread it's power and save our souls (ha!). The act of borrowing made conversion easier on the converts. The so called Christmas Tree, Yule Log, all the trappings of a religion only a mere 2000 years old, all taken by conquest. There is no argument to be made honey bunny, it happened.

Making such a biased statement as:

'The Easter (Ishtar) holiday was indeed borrowed from Pagan rituals when the War monging Church all but obliterated every last vestige of any civilization that didn't convert in an attempt to spread it's power and save our souls..." is clearly as condascending. Are you exisiting in ALL of these times and through all of europe and can as clearly say that Church maliciously took rituals...? Many symbols i will concede are clearly pagan but at the same time amny other symbols are universal...the pentagram is one of them...the Pentagram after all is not merely a pagan symbol because well...it wasnt used by ancient pagans, ancient pagans used their own culturally developed symbols. Bringing all of this back to the original premise of the heartagram...there is a likesness to the pentagram but it is NOT the pentagram.

[WiccanGoddess]

The heartagram is nothing religious. Ville Valo found the pentagram overly used, and decided to take it and put something new to it, and that's its origin.

[Darklord_Kodiak]

Actually the first heartagram was found on an archiology dig in the middle east. The symbol itself is supposed to represent the balance between good and evil. With the heart being good and the inverted pentagram being the evil. Then it was adopted ny the band as their symbol. I actually like the message the symbol sends. As far as any more info than that i dont have it.

[WiccanGoddess]

Actually the first heartagram was found on an archiology dig in the middle east. The symbol itself is supposed to represent the balance between good and evil. With the heart being good and the inverted pentagram being the evil. Then it was adopted ny the band as their symbol. I actually like the message the symbol sends. As far as any more info than that i dont have it.
Really? That's interesting.

I'd like to see your source, as that realy perked my curiousity. (What can I say, one day, curiousity will kill this kitten. :cheers: )



I hate to say it but the Pentagram is not exclusibvly a pagan symbol...its used in hinduism in some sects...in judaism...and christinaity evben though its not commonly used...I would have to disagree with you dragoncrone that Christians 'systematicly changed' things and symbols for their own uses...its half true but also half false as it was adaptation


Even though I hate to agree, I have to. They didn't change for their own uses. They saw something that they found appealing, and adapted it to their beliefs. Though the Pentagram and many holidays were of Pagan origin, it was Christianity that brought forth an interest in them. Though the Pentagram began as a symbol of the Lady, Venus, and Mother Nature by Celtics and beyond...I still consider Celtics Pagan. But it's not about origin, really. It's about the use and present knowledge.

[Darklord_Kodiak]

Really? That's interesting.

I'd like to see your source, as that realy perked my curiousity. (What can I say, one day, curiousity will kill this kitten. :cheers: )
Once I find it I will deffinatly post it.

[Ben Gruagach]

Actually the first heartagram was found on an archiology dig in the middle east. The symbol itself is supposed to represent the balance between good and evil. With the heart being good and the inverted pentagram being the evil. Then it was adopted ny the band as their symbol. I actually like the message the symbol sends. As far as any more info than that i dont have it.

I find that really curious too -- especially since the equation of inverted pentagram = evil only seems to have come about in the 1800s when some English occultists decided to put the goat's head in the inverted pentagram symbol.

There are lots of historical examples of the pentagram (one point up AND two points up) being considered to be a good thing, including within the Christian religion. The whole inverted pentagram equals evil is a more recent innovation. So any pre-1800s archeological evidence that supports the interpretation specifically that the inverted pentagram equals evil would be rather interesting to say the least.

[Carla O'Harris]

Making such a biased statement as:

'The Easter (Ishtar) holiday was indeed borrowed from Pagan rituals when the War monging Church all but obliterated every last vestige of any civilization that didn't convert in an attempt to spread it's power and save our souls..." is clearly as condascending. Are you exisiting in ALL of these times and through all of europe and can as clearly say that Church maliciously took rituals...? Many symbols i will concede are clearly pagan but at the same time amny other symbols are universal...the pentagram is one of them...the Pentagram after all is not merely a pagan symbol because well...it wasnt used by ancient pagans, ancient pagans used their own culturally developed symbols. Bringing all of this back to the original premise of the heartagram...there is a likesness to the pentagram but it is NOT the pentagram.


Actually, there is a great deal of evidence that a great deal of what is not specifically derivable from the Bible within Christianity and specifically Catholicism was derived from :

a) The contemporary pagan cults of early Christianity
b) The pagan symbols and rituals that Gregory urged clergy to appropriate.

[teishabee]

People are always saying christianity did this and that but please give me sources.

If you cant do that then its all just hearsay.

[Toby Stimpson]

I agree with teishabee....I will happily concede if you can find some evidence...I mean with certain classic examples such as the traditions of christmas now...but if you look at the history of that many of those traditions were developed over time and had nothing rewally to do with a malicious church trying to steal things.

[Carla O'Harris]

A good place to begin is Ramsay MacMullen's Christianity and Paganism in the Fourth to Eighth Centuries, but some of the classic works on the Mystery Traditions of the ancients, especially relating to Dying-Rising Gods is very relevant here. Frazer is actually a good source in this regard. So, yes, it's documented.

[Ben Gruagach]

I agree with teishabee....I will happily concede if you can find some evidence...I mean with certain classic examples such as the traditions of christmas now...but if you look at the history of that many of those traditions were developed over time and had nothing rewally to do with a malicious church trying to steal things.

There are a number of books about the Pagan origins of Christianity (and Christianity's source, Judaism). Here are a few I found easily at Amazon.com by searching for "pagan Christ":

"The Pagan Christ : Recovering the Lost Light" by Tom Harpur

"The Historical Jesus and the Mythical Christ: Separating Fact from Fiction" by Gerald Massey

"Pagan Christs: Studies in Comparative Hierology" by John M. Robertson

"Pagan Origins of the Christ Myth" by John G. Jackson

"Jesus: Pagan Christ or Jewish Messiah?" by Laurence E. Dalton

"Apollonius of Tyana: The Pagan Christ of the Third Century" by Albert Reville

"Pagan festivals in Christian worship: Thoughts on the day of Christ's resurrection" by E. E Franke

"Twentieth century paganism: A review of the Old and New Testaments, showing their teachings, derived from pagan mythology, to be without truth, inspiration ... applied to the teachings of Moses and Christ" by Willard C Haynes (this one is from 1915.)

I'm sure most if not all of those books will list plenty of references in them for anyone who wants to explore the topic of Pagan origins of Christian religion.

There are also web sites that provide evidence of the Pagan origins of Christianity. This webpage for instance (http://www.truthbeknown.com/mithra.htm) discusses the rather obvious parallels between Christianity and Mithraism. This website (http://home.earthlink.net/~pgwhacker/ChristianOrigins/) gives lots more. If you do a web search on "pagan origins of Christianity" you'll find even more.

[Silvan]

I agree with teishabee....I will happily concede if you can find some evidence...I mean with certain classic examples such as the traditions of christmas now...but if you look at the history of that many of those traditions were developed over time and had nothing rewally to do with a malicious church trying to steal things.

Whether malicious or not is up for debate, but interested in bringing others into the fold, certainly. I don't think there's much room to dispute the fact that Christianity teaches its followers to try to convert everyone they meet into more followers.

These traditions were not stolen so much as subsumed. People were celebrating a day with eggs and bunnies, so they folded it into a story about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It was easier to go with what people were already doing than to try to get them to give up their fun festivals, so they found ways to put a Christian slant on all the old Pagan (not just Celtic, but Norse and Roman, and others as well) traditions, and thus make it possible to reconcile their continued observance with the new religion they were trying to get people to take up.

Pagan religions probably did the same to older Pagan religions along the way, and I'm sure history is full of parallel examples among conquerors and the conquerored in other contexts as well.

Your perspective just depends on which side you would have had win the conflict. In this case, I am on the side of the conquerored, and I resent the efficiency with which Christianity spread itself to all corners of our globe. I also resent the tactics Abraham Lincoln utilized to revoke the right of American states to secede from the Union. All that and a couple of bucks, I guess, will buy me a cup of coffee.

I have no idea how expensive coffee is. I can't stand the wretched stuff.

[Toby Stimpson]

mhm....like I said I dont by all means refute the claim that christinaitnity did adopt many pre existing rleigious traditions...but at the same tyime I refute the claim that it was a decision to automaticly 'steal' traditions away rom pagans. I mean take the Pagan Christ for example...that archetype that Christ was inveloped in developed over a long period...and spilled into many different traditions...did those other traditions 'steal' the horus archetype for themselves. Thats my major problem with what Cynyr originally said. Thansk for the information though ben :D

[Toby Stimpson]

Whether malicious or not is up for debate, but interested in bringing others into the fold, certainly. I don't think there's much room to dispute the fact that Christianity teaches its followers to try to convert everyone they meet into more followers.

These traditions were not stolen so much as subsumed. People were celebrating a day with eggs and bunnies, so they folded it into a story about the resurrection of Jesus Christ. It was easier to go with what people were already doing than to try to get them to give up their fun festivals, so they found ways to put a Christian slant on all the old Pagan (not just Celtic, but Norse and Roman, and others as well) traditions, and thus make it possible to reconcile their continued observance with the new religion they were trying to get people to take up.

Pagan religions probably did the same to older Pagan religions along the way, and I'm sure history is full of parallel examples among conquerors and the conquerored in other contexts as well.

Your perspective just depends on which side you would have had win the conflict. In this case, I am on the side of the conquerored, and I resent the efficiency with which Christianity spread itself to all corners of our globe. I also resent the tactics Abraham Lincoln utilized to revoke the right of American states to secede from the Union. All that and a couple of bucks, I guess, will buy me a cup of coffee.

I have no idea how expensive coffee is. I can't stand the wretched stuff.


Haha you posted the exact time as me thats strange...

I appreciate your clarity of opinion...I mean I dont disagree with you and I certainly do not disagree with your tone. This topic could be debated upon and upon....a discussion i would very much like to be a aprt of. I appreciate your unbiassed and comprehensive responce though...I personally don't think this issue is clear cut although i have been arguing in that manner. I think perhaps as I just said above that to me saying that a religion 'stole' traditions is in a way very much blaming that religion for thigns that happened hundreds of years ago...and also not taking into account or even respecting how people over a few generations will try to save their traditions from being swept away...are those people somehow malicious? You know what I'm getting at?

[Ben Gruagach]

The idea that Christians (and the Roman Catholic church in particular) would actively attempt to absorb or take over Pagan practices and even places of worship has been discussed among Christians for quite some time and isn't really a secret.

This article on the Jehovah's Witnesses website (http://www.watchtower.org/library/w/1999/3/15/article_01.htm) for instance gives a good summary of the topic. Here's one pretty relevent passage:

In a letter to a missionary bound for pagan Britain in 601 C.E., Gregory gave this direction: "The temples of the idols in the said country ought not to be broken; but the idols alone which be in them . . . If the said temples be well built, it is needful that they be altered from the worshipping of devils into the service of the true God." Gregory's idea was that if pagan peoples saw their former temples unspoiled, they might be more inclined to continue frequenting them.

There's a copy of Pope Gregory the first's letter (quoted briefly above) at this English heathenism website (http://www.homestead.com/englishheathenism/popesletter.html) too if you want to read it.

So I think it's fair and truthful to say that there has been an attempt within the Roman Catholic church (at least under Pope Gregory the first) to actively absorb Paganism by just changing a few details rather that by eliminating it.

[teishabee]

I just think that Christianity and alot of other religions come under alot of flack, with people making generalisations.

I agree that in this case there is evidence, but I just think that people are too eager to point fault.

[Ben Gruagach]

I just think that Christianity and alot of other religions come under alot of flack, with people making generalisations.

I agree that in this case there is evidence, but I just think that people are too eager to point fault.

I'm not sure that it's necessarily a case of fault or blame.

Is there any religion that HASN'T borrowed/stolen/absorbed things from other religions?

[oakowl]

Why classify other people at all based on outward appearances? If you really want to know if they are Pagan or not the only way to know is to politely ask them.
Very true Ben. I am a 52 year old powerlifter with close cropped gray hair, often in bib overalls. While at pagan festivals friends point me out as the kilt wearing, tree hugging old man with a pint in his hand.

[pagan_majik]

actually, it does have a connection to the band....the shoe was designed by Bam (Margera), who is a huge fan of HIM. and he's Adio's(the company that makes the shoe) biggest name, though only because of his "Jackass" days. he's an okay skater, and definitely not the best one sponsored by Adio. but yeah, Adio has done alot to appeal to the whole "poser" group. they picked up Bam, and he's designed at least 2 shoes for them, the HIM shoe(i think it's the Eugene), and a cKy shoe too. i'm not sure on the names, but yeah, it's all thanks to Bam.

ps- don't ask, i'm into the whole skate scene, and i know alot about skate stuff.....

[iucey]

:confused: :confused:
it seem that it's getting heaty here with all the debate :x

[Ben Gruagach]

:confused: :confused:
it seem that it's getting heaty here with all the debate :x

Hmmm... I didn't think it got even slightly warm! (Have a look at the discussions in the Political section if you want to see what heated discussion is like...)

Personally I really appreciate learning about other people's points of view. There is something to learn from everyone.

[stella01904]

i agree...
but i didn't want to ask them...

i tried once and that girl said " why do you bother?"
after i explain to her, she say "i'm interested but i see no point talking to you" -.-"
She's probably used to proselyzers and didn't know that we don't do that.
"Merry Meet" will do in a pinch. Either they catch it, or they give you a puzzled stare, in which case you can say "nevermind...." Saves you form having to listen to the following:

sometimes people make such comment
"you mean you're a witch? there's really witch?"
"can you fly on broom stick? "
"oh you're evil, you believe in satan!!"
"what can you do? "
"can you cast spells?"
As far as the heart-o-gram, I've been seeing it around and correctly surmised it is a way for kids to cheese off their fundie parents without wearing a real pentagram, but I didn't know where it came from. Thanks for clearing that up, everyone!
Stella

[wicked_craft]

Most recently I've been seeing the symbol on tennis shoes. I don't know if the shoes have a connection to the band, though; I'm thinking that maybe they're now simply marketing the symbol as a symbol?

Me no no.

I beleive that it does go for the band, I think that I saw the same shoe before.