Drawing Down the Moon?

[Carla O'Harris]

Raven,

What do you think the ancients were referring to when they spoke of "Drawing Down the Moon"?

That they were referring to a witch's ability to actually dislodge the moon from the sky physically seems ridiculous. I doubt anyone would believe such a thing. I could see it referring possibly to eclipses.

Why could it not have been spoken of as drawing the moon's power down to earth?

Or -- if it is literally saying a witch can pull the moon from the skies, isn't this something one would say of a goddess? Of a powerful goddess? Then "drawing down the moon" could refer to a priestess-goddess, which would involve the idea of some kind of "invocation" where the priestess and goddess were at least temporarily identified.

What are your thoughts?

[David19]

Wasn't Drawing down the Moon also done by Greek witches (who i think were associated with Hecate, who's symbol was also the moon), maybe they were drawing down the energy of the moon into themselves (for some reason) or they were using the moon as the symbol of their particular goddess (or god), to draw down their goddess into them (e.g. invocation) or maybe like you said, the witch who did it, may have been 'possessed' by their goddess (who then could use their godly powers to do more supernatural things).

Maybe drawing down the moon was used by the witches, to draw down mystical energy from it (and i think the moon has been associated with lots of mystical and supernatural elements e.g. werewolves, etc) and used it for extra power in their rituals and spells or maybe just to increase their own personal power.

[raven grimassi]

What do you think the ancients were referring to when they spoke of "Drawing Down the Moon"?

That they were referring to a witch's ability to actually dislodge the moon from the sky physically seems ridiculous. I doubt anyone would believe such a thing. I could see it referring possibly to eclipses.

Why could it not have been spoken of as drawing the moon's power down to earth?

There were three events that the ancient writers referred to when using the phrase "drawing down the moon." One was the disappearance of the moon from the sky, another that the moon’s light was captured in a box, and the other was the deposit of a substance they called loam. This was said to be collected by Witches and used in spell casting.

Some commentators feel that the idea of making the moon disappear had its source in the knowledge of eclipses (when they would occur). Some suggest that Witches used this knowledge to make people believe they had the power to draw the moon from the night sky. The idea stuck and the belief continued into the classical era in modified ways.

The idea of a loam on the ground is closer to a surviving tradition in which dew is collected the morning following the night of the full moon. The dew is collected from moss or lichen that grows upon rocks. There are varieties of this that are silvery-gray and look very much like the patches one sees on the moon with the naked eye. When we consider that the goddess Diana was known as "the dewy one" in ancient times, the concept of Witches gathering dew from moss or lichen is strongly suggested.



Or -- if it is literally saying a witch can pull the moon from the skies, isn't this something one would say of a goddess? Of a powerful goddess? Then "drawing down the moon" could refer to a priestess-goddess, which would involve the idea of some kind of "invocation" where the priestess and goddess were at least temporarily identified.

There was a known practice in ancient times of using polished metal mirrors to reflect the full moon. Dion Fortune depicts this in her books Moon Magic, and The Sea Priestess. Essentially the mirror is used to reflect the moon’s light upon the forehead of the priestess. This always reminded me of the image of Diana with the moon circlet across her brow. So, I think you have a point.

I will add also that in the oral tradition of the Italian system I practice, it is said that the drawing of a circle on the ground was, in ancient times, an act of mimic magic. The idea being that “like attracts like” - and so to draw a circle on the ground was to draw down the circle in the sky (the full moon). Tied to this tradition is the idea that the souls of our ancestors reside in the moon, and so when we step into the circle on the earth we join in ritual with our ancestors (because the two circles are as one). Here it is interesting to note that one ancient belief held that as the moon received souls it began to swell (become full). As the souls returned to the earth the light diminished.

[Carla O'Harris]

Wow, thank you!! Very informative. I like the idea of the dew-collecting.

Y'know, it's interesting ... there is so much that is fascinating here if people can "suspend their disbelief" for just a few moments to really look and enjoy ...

[raven grimassi]

Y'know, it's interesting ... there is so much that is fascinating here if people can "suspend their disbelief" for just a few moments to really look and enjoy ...

Might happen when pigs fly. ;)

[Xirian]

I've always wondered about the orgin of this belief. How interesting. I really like the idea of the moon swelling with souls. How interesting. I'm glad I checked this thread out. Thanks all of you!!!

[Carla O'Harris]

[QUOTE=raven grimassi]Might happen whttp://www.alea.org/public/merchandise/images/flying_pig.jpg

[Faia Kokoro]

I will add also that in the oral tradition of the Italian system I practice, it is said that the drawing of a circle on the ground was, in ancient times, an act of mimic magic. The idea being that “like attracts like” - and so to draw a circle on the ground was to draw down the circle in the sky (the full moon). Tied to this tradition is the idea that the souls of our ancestors reside in the moon, and so when we step into the circle on the earth we join in ritual with our ancestors (because the two circles are as one). Here it is interesting to note that one ancient belief held that as the moon received souls it began to swell (become full). As the souls returned to the earth the light diminished.

I just have to comment on what an incredible concept that is, to think of souls in the moon in that way. I've never heard that before & that is just the most fascinating bit of information.

You've given me something fun to think of whenever I see the moon now.

[Abbadie]

Hello,

I am not a regular around here, but I came upon this thread while looking up the “drawing down the Moon” concept, and thought I’d share this interesting tidbit from Bill Liddell’s website:


Doreen Valiente tries to link Wiccan practices with the Classical Mysteries (P129 'The Rebirth of Witchcraft') The caption on the top illustration reads "Drawing down the Moon. A sketch made by Gerald Gardner from a Greek vase, c 200 BC." Two nude women with drawn weapons are supposedly drawing down the moon. It is a pity that Gardner did not supply the provenance and present whereabouts of this vase. Gardner may have understood the classical concept of drawing down the moon, but he was too much of a Victorian gentleman to spell it out. All ancient races feared the lunar cycles in the female body : fertility and sterility. J.W Brodie-Innes, a prominent member of the Golden Dawn, contributed witchcraft articles in 'The Occult Review' in 1917. He claims :

"The spells in vogue in Scotland or in England three hundred years ago, and of which we find perhaps only a few obscure traces existing today, may be much more clear and definite in Brittany or the Channel Islands. Others again still farther afield. When I was writing The Devil's Mistress I found in the Confession of Isabel Goudie distinct traces, but no more, of the 'moon paste.' But what it was, and how prepared, no testimony in this country gave the smallest clue. Hints in Hesiod, and other classical authors, showed that the formula was used in Thessaly, and Medieval Italians spoke of bringing the moon down from Heaven. Still they eluded me, till at last Iran it to earth in Morocco, as recorded in the notes of Emile Mauchamp and others, The key fitted exactly; not only Isobel Goudie but the Thessalian witches were justified by the experience of a modern scientific traveller." (P148 R.A Gilbert 'The Sorcerer and His Apprentice', Aquarian Press, 1983)

J.W Brodie-Innes (1848-1923) formulated theories which would be seized on by Margaret Murray and Gerald Gardner. He writes: "I shall therefore for the most part confine myself to cases [of witchcraft] that I can personally vouch for, and of these the most interesting to the student are those which show the survival of forms current in the Middle Ages, or in remote classical times." (P143) Gardner did not have far to look when he decided to found a pagan religion which claimed an historical continuity with both the Classical Mysteries and the mediaeval witch cult. Gardner derived the Wiccan concept of Drawing down the Moon from traditional Craft: the Magister, who is the consort of the Goddess, calls down the Moon on the Lady; and the Lady, who is the Bride of the God, calls down the sun on the Magister.

-Bill Liddell, The Pickingill Papers
http://wwaw.fortunecity.com/roswell/angelic/361/index.html

In fact, I recently heard of a strega from a family tradition who, while unaware of both Liddell and Brodie-Innes’ connection of the concept to the Nairn coven’s “moon paste” (rightly interpreted, I would say), gives pretty much the same interpretation here implied to the Moon loam obtained by Thessalian witches, apparently drawing from her family’s lore.

Horn & Fire,

Abbadie

[Carla O'Harris]

Gardner may have understood the classical concept of drawing down the moon, but he was too much of a Victorian gentleman to spell it out. All ancient races feared the lunar cycles in the female body : fertility and sterility.

Perhaps someone might be kind enough to spell this out for us in the present un-Victorian day. I hear a wink-wink, nod-nod here, and I'd like to know precisely what is being hinted at.

[Abbadie]

Perhaps someone might be kind enough to spell this out for us in the present un-Victorian day. I hear a wink-wink, nod-nod here, and I'd like to know precisely what is being hinted at.

Lol, well, quite simply, it involves menstrual blood, sometimes combined with semen in certain instances -Crowley had a similar technique in a ceremonial context. I should point out that different traditions would do things very differently, so I obviously cannot generalize. This applies to at least one Strega family tradition and one branch of Scottish Traditional Craft.

Horn & Fire,

Abbadie

[raven grimassi]

Lol, well, quite simply, it involves menstrual blood, sometimes combined with semen in certain instances -Crowley had a similar technique in a ceremonial context. I should point out that different traditions would do things very differently, so I obviously cannot generalize. This applies to at least one Strega family tradition and one branch of Scottish Traditional Craft.

Body fluids are definitely used in many of the older forms of Witchcraft, and in different ways. One belief is that a woman who is menstruating can heal others because her body is draining (a form of mimic magic). And there is more to this because menstrual blood is highly magnetic in a metaphysical sense.

Semen, as a vechicle of potential manifestation, is also useful in magic, and its power goes into creating forms on one level or another (whether material or non-material).

I wrote a bit on this in my book Wiccan Mysteries, in a chapter on the Mystery Tradition that addressed the Fermentation mysteries, Transformation mysteries, and the Cauldron mysteries.

[Semele]

I have had some experience with the power of menstrual blood during sex magic related to healing. I have had success both solo and partnered up with focused intent. A partner with experience is always better but not necessary. I found it more useful when my partner was actively visualizing and constructing on the astral. I have never followed any specific traditions but rather taken form different sources and culminated what works for me. The moon certainly plays a role in the cycles of women and thus it is a very helpful visual tool.

[Carla O'Harris]

There were three events that the ancient writers referred to when using the phrase "drawing down the moon." One was the disappearance of the moon from the sky, another that the moon’s light was captured in a box, and the other was the deposit of a substance they called loam. This was said to be collected by Witches and used in spell casting.

Some commentators feel that the idea of making the moon disappear had its source in the knowledge of eclipses (when they would occur). Some suggest that Witches used this knowledge to make people believe they had the power to draw the moon from the night sky. The idea stuck and the belief continued into the classical era in modified ways.

The idea of a loam on the ground is closer to a surviving tradition in which dew is collected the morning following the night of the full moon. The dew is collected from moss or lichen that grows upon rocks. There are varieties of this that are silvery-gray and look very much like the patches one sees on the moon with the naked eye. When we consider that the goddess Diana was known as "the dewy one" in ancient times, the concept of Witches gathering dew from moss or lichen is strongly suggested.




There was a known practice in ancient times of using polished metal mirrors to reflect the full moon. Dion Fortune depicts this in her books Moon Magic, and The Sea Priestess. Essentially the mirror is used to reflect the moon’s light upon the forehead of the priestess. This always reminded me of the image of Diana with the moon circlet across her brow. So, I think you have a point.

I will add also that in the oral tradition of the Italian system I practice, it is said that the drawing of a circle on the ground was, in ancient times, an act of mimic magic. The idea being that “like attracts like” - and so to draw a circle on the ground was to draw down the circle in the sky (the full moon). Tied to this tradition is the idea that the souls of our ancestors reside in the moon, and so when we step into the circle on the earth we join in ritual with our ancestors (because the two circles are as one). Here it is interesting to note that one ancient belief held that as the moon received souls it began to swell (become full). As the souls returned to the earth the light diminished.



I'm curious whether this moon-dew could have been used to anoint people to draw the moon-goddess into them, and therefore could function in the way Gardner described.

Consider :


It is this lunare virus, 'lunar slime' -- virus has the sense of an off-putting but stinking, pungent, viscous substance, and so becomes a word for a witch-substance ... as well as poison ...

(Richard Gordon, "Imagining Greek and Roman Magic", in Bengt Ankarloo and Stuart Clark, Witchcraft and Magic in Europe : Ancient Greece and Rome, University of Pennsylvania Press, Philadelphia, 1999, p. 223)

Actually, "virus" more correctly translates to "venom", "poisonous secretion of snakes/creatures/plants; acrid element..." It therefore refers to a potent substance that we should suspect to be connected to veneficia.


...'lunar chrism' appears in PGM VII 873f ... 'lunar slime' is the ultimate materia magica, a substance derived from the very limits of the sub-lunar world...

(Ibid.)

Please note the meaning of 'chrism', here :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrism


Chrism (Greek word literally meaning "an anointing"), also called "Myrrh (Myron)," "Holy Oil," or "Consecrated Oil," is a consecrated oil used in the Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Orthodox churches, in the Assyrian Church of the East, in the Old-Catholic churches, and in Roman Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran churches in the administration of certain sacraments and ecclesiastical functions. ...

Note also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ


Christ...In the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, it was used to translate into Greek the Hebrew Mashiach (Messiah), meaning "[one who is] anointed". While many Christian writers claim that this term implied a match to the criteria of being anointed that Jewish tradition had given to their predicted future saviour, some argue that there is no "saviour" concept, as suggested in Christianity, in the Jewish tradition. The "anointed" one more closely means 'high priest', 'leader', or even 'ruler'.The Greek term is cognate with Chrism, meaning perfumed oil; in fact Christ in classical Greek usage could mean covered in oil, and is thus a literal and accurate translation of Messiah.

Thus, the word "chrism" absolutely and definitely refers to an anointing with oil, specifically of a perfumed kind.

A recurring theme in the witch trials is the anointing with witch-ointment which allows one to travel to the fairy-sabbat. This is also found in folklore.

We should also note the connection between this moon-dew and love-philtres (veneficia, love-potions) :


a philtre (cf. 'moon water' in modern Morocco : Westermarck, 1926 : 1, 126.)

(Gordon, op cit., p. 196.)


... Luna should leave the stars and come down to earth, obedient to magic (carmine mago)...

(Ibid, p. 213)

This last quote indeed sounds like it is the goddess who is coming to earth through the operation ; indeed, I see no reason why the physical operation of reflecting the moon in a jar of water to derive moon-dew, used for anointing, and in philtres, should be separated from the idea of the goddess coming to earth.

This would most especially be the case if the moon-dew was used in a hallucinogenic philtre of some kind ; in any case, anointing is often how a priest or priestess is recognized. For people of the witch-religion to be anointed into goddess-communion with moon-dew is eminently appropriate.

Gordon notes in a footnote that


pharmakis ... [a]t Aristoph. Nub. 749 the word is an adjective qualifying gyne, ie., 'a herbalist woman' -- in this case, a Thessalian, who can haul the moon down."

(Ibid., pp. 274 - 275)

Here we have another association between a woman who prepares herbs and drawing down the moon.

Gerald Gardner in Witchcraft Today says of the witches he knew,


I have never known witches anoint themselves all over, but I have been shown a recipe for an anointing oil. This consisted of vervain, or mint crushed and steeped in olive oil or lard, left overnight, then squeezed through a cloth to remove the leaves. Fresh leaves were then added and the squeezing repeated three or four times until it was strongly scented and ready for use. It is said that if they lived in the country where they would not be seen, they would strip and rub the oil into their skin and go to the sabbat naked. This would keep them warm enough until they reached the dance. At times they would mix soot with the oil so as not to be seen at night. One of the charges against witches was that they went invisible by night, and, it may be noted, vervain was at one time thought to confer invisibility. They have a very powerful scented oil, which nowadays they speak of as anointing oil. This is only used by the ladies, who dab it on their shoulders, behind their ears, etc., much as ordinary perfume.When they are heated with dancing, this gives off very strong fumes, and most certainly produces a very curious effect. What it is made of is kept a great secret; they had to do without it during the war and for some time afterwards, but supplies are coming forward again. They went naked to the meetings because if they were raided they might not have time to dress and so would leave incriminating clothing behind. (emphasis mine)

Note that Gardner specifically refers to an "anointing oil".

Rhiannon Ryall wrote West Country Wicca : A Journal of hte Old Religion in 1989, ten years before the previously cited Gordon article was available which brings together the classical information about Drawing Down the Moon. While some parts of her book may be subjected to critical skepticism, other parts have a "ring true" quality of simplicity that strikes me as similar to the rituals and beliefs described in Twilight of the Celtic Gods, ad therefore authentic.

Consider her version of the Drawing Down the Moon ceremony :


At a Full Moon ceremony, a large, shallow dish was placed in the Circle to reflect the moon, as it was considered a link for the Drawing Down.

Rhiannon Ryall, West Country Wicca : A Journal of the Old Religion, Phoenix Publishing Inc., Washington, 1989, p. 3.

And here :


As previously mentioned, a shallow water-filled pan was placed in the Circle for a Full Moon Rite, so that the moon's reflection could be seen in the water. With her back to the North, and this dish at her feet, the High Priestess was ready for the Drawing Down. The High Priest faced her, with the dish of water between them, and after feeling he had drawn the God-Force into himself, he would say,

"O Gracious Goddess, behold thy Priestess ... (her name).
Bring down thy power upon her and within her,
That through thy Great Art, she may see those things
Which are hidden, and know thy wisdoms which she lacks.
O Lady of the Fields, enter now thy Priestess ... (her name.)"

... The object of the Drawing Down was threefold : one, to bring Power into the Circle ; two, so that the Priestess in question might receive messages, or flashes of insight that would benefit all ; and three, we felt it was really the main religious ceremony of Wicca.

(Ibid, pp. 15 - 16.)

Now, whether anyone thinks Ryall's system authentic or synthetic, I think she is onto something here. The possibility remains that she was in touch with a tradition that did indeed link the moon-chrism with the drawing of the goddess into the woman, a usage that is now fairly universally derided by the skeptics.

It may also be worthy of mention that many thought the "Drawing Down of the Moon" actually robbed the moon from the sky, and Gordon cites eclipses in this regard. While this may indeed refer to special rites timed around lunar eclipses as perhaps a particularly magical time, it may also be worthy of notice that theNew Moon just as much as the Full Moon was considered a magically potent time, and if witches were thought to practice on the New Moon, perhaps the disappearance of the Moon at this time might be accounted for. On the other hand, perhaps their activities at the Full Moon were considered to have had this effect on the New Moon.

[Paracelsus]

No Carla, your assertion that Chrism always refers to anointing with oil is simply not true. In a church context that is the case, but Chrism has come to mean in general English usage (and in particular in occult circles) "a substance that is used for ceremonial anointing" - there are any number of modern magickians who use the term to cover anointing with sexual fluids, liquid preparations of entheogens etc. You can't be that dogmatic.
In the context of this discussion, I think that the anointing with sacred fluids understanding is an excellent way of approaching the concept of drawing down the moon - makes a great deal of sense, and meshes neatly with a lot of traditional practice in Cornwall (which is certainly not averse to mud and blood).
BB

[Carla O'Harris]

Well, I certainly wasn't meaning to be dogmatic ; I apologize. I was simply trying to emphasize the "anointing" part, in relation to the "moon-dew". That that moon-dew might include other ingredients seems probable to me. Thanks for correcting what might have appeared to be an imbalanced emphasis on my part.