i'm in a bit of a pickle...

[myristica]

i go to a Methodist college and one of the required classes is a class over jeudao/christian beliefs etc... i really dont want to take this class especially since some of the prof's pick on u ect if u arent christian (from what i've heard). i tend to be very opinionated about christianity and the past, and tend to get very defensive and ruthless during a discussion. i just can't help it. thats how i feel about the church and its practices of the past. i don't mean to offend anyone here with what i'm saying so please dont be. any words of wisdom would be much appreciated.

[Myst]

Just don't be so loud? Use some self control? Tape your mouth shut? ;)

[Amethyst Rose]

I think it would be a good idea to take a class like this, personally. It may help you to understand the religion and their beliefs a little better, which may enable you to have more self control of your opinions. :)
Now, as to voicing your opinions in class.....if it was me, I would sit back quietly until I had a question or heard something that I thought was wrong. Then I would present my question/opinion, and debate it.... this isn't being pushy, or argumentive.... it's being a STUDENT. It's what learning is all about. You don't have to let anyone know that you're not christian if your not comfortable with that....just be a normal student with questions. But if you do want them to know (like I did in the many religion courses I took), then be prepared to stand up for yourself and your beliefs, and do so when the time is right, with pride.

[dragonmagic64]

The problem with debating religion is you'll never convince anyone of anything.
Most debate's I've had with christains fall apart as soon as they digress to the all too common comment , But the BIBLE say!!!-- End of Debate, End of Logic , End of Rationalization.
Most people don't realize why they believe what they believe. It has more to do with who told them about their belief system. Who said their holy script was above question. NOthing should be above question, espesially god/goddess. But this isn't the point or the topic.
After awhile you learn to not discuss religion with those whom are really just there :evilway: to preach , :evilway: can I get a halo lu ya , an amen , quick pass the plate.
If your going to school to learn , perhapes learn about the propaganda surrounding the myths , aka , christianity. I have found great spiritual truths hidden within. An organised religion has great handicap , the leadership , infrastructurer is run by humans. Unfortunatly we are greedy :devil:, lieing :bad:selfish:uzi::shot: creatures by nature, and it takes great effort for us to crawl :rotfl: out the swamp water of our own imperfect (AKA) sinful natures. :smoke:

[Myst]

Yes some fundamentalists will never listen to any other opinions.

Fundamentalist Christians *or* Pagans. Sometimes people just don't want to hear you and then it does no good to speak.

[mol]

Originally posted by dragonmagic64
The problem with debating religion is you'll never convince anyone of anything.
Most debate's I've had with christains fall apart as soon as they digress to the all too common comment , But the BIBLE say!!!-- End of Debate, End of Logic , End of Rationalization.
Most people don't realize why they believe what they believe. It has more to do with who told them about their belief system. Who said their holy script was above question. NOthing should be above question, espesially god/goddess. But this isn't the point or the topic.
After awhile you learn to not discuss religion with those whom are really just there :evilway: to preach , :evilway: can I get a halo lu ya , an amen , quick pass the plate.


SITE GOD MODE

Your judgements are overgeneralized and are founded on a stereotype. We respect all Paths here and your post is nothing but disrepectful. Keep that in mind.

And on a side note...Christians have a wonderful rule/law called the Golden Rule. Why don't you look it up?

[amberlaine]

Yikes.

Maybe i"m alone in this, but I didn't see this post as disrespectful, and there's even some truth to what he's got to say.


Most debate's I've had with christains fall apart as soon as they digress to the all too common comment , But the BIBLE say!!!-- End of Debate, End of Logic , End of Rationalization.

That's unfortunately true. It is impossible to enter into a debate with CHristians (or Muslims or Jews for that matter) on matters os philosophy when they resort toe "the Holy TExt says" arguments and leave it at that. You come to an impasse at that point, which makes debate impossible. (Not only that--but the poster specified that this was his experience--so its not even a general statmeent; ots limited to his experience.



Most people don't realize why they believe what they believe. It has more to do with who told them about their belief system.

That's probably true too. Most people arne' tinterested in theology--they just want to have faith. ANd there's nothing inherently wrong with that. But td eos mean that many people don't question--and in my eperience, that's generally a bad thing.


Who said their holy script was above question. NOthing should be above question, espesially god/goddess. But this isn't the point or the topic.

Again, this is true, and not disrespectful. The entire point of having conversations like this is question religous prescripts and the Divine. Isn't that why most of us are here (especially in this partiuclar forum?)


After awhile you learn to not discuss religion with those whom are really just there to preach , can I get a halo lu ya , an amen , quick pass the plate.

This didn't seem like a judgment to me either. He's right. THere is no point in discussing religion with those who aren't interested in discussion. If all anyone is interested in is following their faith, regardless of what you have to say about it, then yo ulearn not to discuss it anymore. THat's just common sense.

[mol]

SITE GOD MODE

My previous post was not a coversation piece. The post was reported and I looked into it. I found some of the points valid by the reporter, so I acted on it. I never said that dragonmagic64 didnt make any points.

This thread will be closed if it is not returned to topic.

If someone wants to discuss this with me via pm then do so. Here will be my reply: If you are discussing religion with a Christian and you dont know that the Bible WILL be brought up...then you shouldnt be discussing religion with a Christian.

[Danustouch]

I was trying reallllllly hard to not reply to this....sigh.

Amberlaine, the reason why his post was disrespectful, was that it was vastly overgeneralizing.

As someone who studied biblical history, interpretation, and theology in college (back when I WAS a christian), I can say that I've met many christians who do study the theology, and philosophy of the bible, and are up to debate on it at any point.

Myst was right, when she spoke of "Fundamentalist" christians, as opposed to ALL christians. Fundamentalist Christians are like fundamentalists of all groups. They stubbornly cling to their views, without really debating them, exploring them, or questioning them, and they are Radicals. This certainly does not describe ALL christians.

My parents are Christian, and while I disagree with many of their beliefs, From the time I was 12 on, my mother and father and I would get into debates about the Dead Sea Scrolls, and the Apocrypha. As a matter of fact, it was my mother who first told me that you cannot take every word in the bible literally, just as it is written. Yet..they go to church every sunday, and are very religious.

One of the old Pastors of their church, was a chaplain for the Freemasons. Back when I was a born again christian, this didn't settle well with me (i was pretty ignorant back then), and I used to debate with him, as well. Yet...he was a staunch believer in the bible. But..was always willing and eager, to debate about it, discuss the history of the Church in general...etc.

So..my point is..it's not every Christian that you cannot argue with. There are plenty of pagans whom you can't argue with. There are plenty of people of all walks of faith who you cannot argue with, because they refuse to question their beliefs.

But the way that the above post came off, was that this was a problem SOLELY of Christians, and ALL christians, I might add.

If he'd begun the post by saying.."I've met some Christians who you just can't argue with, because they refuse to openly question their belief system, and their holy texts." it would have been a whole differen't story. But..he didn't. He made an overgeneralization. And those are something that we can all do without.

[Danustouch]

Oops..I am so sorry Mol..i was typing that as you made that reply. Sorry...want me to delete?

[Danustouch]

Ummmm..to bring it back on topic...

I would reccomend going a head, and taking the course. Basically, my opinion about studying other religions, even those which might personally be distasteful to us, is that in order to get a deeper understanding of what has drawn us to our path, we must look at the paths of others, and see what we DONT like about them, for ourselves.

If you try to look at it that way, as something which can reinforce your knowledge of why you came to your own path, instead of following the Christian path, it won't irritate you so much.

By all means, if he says something that you really disagree with, and leaves a room for discussion about it. Jump right in, and discuss. But...i'd be careful to phrase my thoughts as questions..and reply with.."I see. Ummhmmm".

In other words, you arent' going to change his views on religion very much, most likely. People believe what they want to believe. All you can do, is be true to yourself.

Take the course, try to get something out of it, and then, when you've PASSED the course, write a book about your experience,and why you disagree with certain things he said, make a million dollars...blah blah, blah. LOL.

Go ahead and take the course. You might find it's more useful to you then you would think.

[amberlaine]

Maybe I"m just ignorant, becuase I dont see anywhere where the poster said anything about "ALL" Christians.

[Danustouch]

Sometimes, things are implied, rather then said outright...:)

[mol]

This is a freebie for all you folks who think I am a friggin moron.

Dragon's post had good points. I never said it did not. The stereotyping of Christians was a problem for me and for others. Perhaps some clarification is in order in Dragon's post to not be so general. Clarification goes both ways you know.

And, little more clarification. The discussion of Dragon's post IS on topic. The discussion of whether or not my MODERATION was a mistake is NOT on topic.

Thanks.

[amberlaine]

But...but....the guy says right up front "Most debates I"ve had with CHristians"...thats a limitation right there. I"m not so sure that's altogether different from the .."I've met some Christians who you just can't argue with, because they refuse to openly question their belief system, and their holy texts." you suggested, except your is worded much better.

[mol]

Its all about perceptions folks. For example:

As I re-read my mod post it looks as though I am attacking poor dragon, but I am not. I found the post to be disrespectful (for instance, the pass the plate comments etc.) So, I moderated. My post was not meant to be insulting or demeaning...but it could be taken that way, much like dragons could have as well.

Again, I am trying to be patient here...to discuss the moderation...pm me. To discuss the points made in dragons thread...post here.

[Danustouch]

Well..then perhaps dragon magick should be more clear in his description of MOST christians. Who are these Christians he is talking about? Are they the fundamentalist, non denominational,
evangelical christians? Because that would probably be true, that most of those he talked to within that bracket would hold those beliefs, as those are some of the core teachings of that specific type of Christianity.

Or, would it be the Catholics, Lutheran, Episcopalian, Congregationalist, Quakers, Methodist, Presbyterian, Anglican, or other denominations? Because these specific denominations tend not to be so fundamental in their core teachings, nor as "EVANGELICAL" in their approach.

"MOST" implies a majority, while "Some" is a more undefined amount. I could agree with "Some". I cannot agree with "MOST". You'd really have to make a very indepth study, and make sure that you conducted this study in ALL branches of the Christian Religion, to be able to say "MOST". Whereas saying "SOME" would be a true statement, being as if you've ever even met TWO christians with that opinion, that qualifies as "SOME".

[amberlaine]

Believe me, DAnus, I see what you're saying. And I had made a similar post, I wouldn't have worded it the way the original poster did. But I do maintain that with this qualification of limiting it to his experience, we can't really say whether or not he should have said most or some.

For example:

In my experience, most pagans (to shift the focus here) that I have debated Christian theology with don't know what the hell they are talking about.

The above is a true statemnt. It is limited to my experience and the pagans that I have spoken to. But had I Said:

Most pagans don't know crap about CHristian theology

then I"d be making a generalization that may or may not be true--a problem which could be rectified by simply saying, "Some pagans don't know dick about CHristian theology."

That's my real grievance with this thread. I read the post and read : "This guy has had some run ins with some ignorant CHristians". I didn't read, "Wow, this guy thinks all CHristians are morons" ANd who nkows, maybe he did mean that. What I'm trying to say, though, is that I don't think that based off of his above comments alone, it is determinable whether or not he thinks all arguments with CHristians are useless, or that he's simply had bad experiences with most of them.

[Danustouch]

Adding a little backing to my statement, here is a link to a statistic about adherants to Christian Paths, it does not detail the membership to each specific denomination, but, breaks down the statistics of the Largest Denominations in the Christian Path.

http://www.adherents.com/adh_branches.html#Christianity

Not surprisingly, it lists Catholics as the largest branch of Christianity. So..when he says.."MOST", was he interviewing MOSTLY catholics?

And out of those Catholics he DID interview..who were the ones he'd spoke to? Younger members of the church, who may not have yet had time to explore the deeper philosophical and theological principles of it? The Priests and Theologians, the People who attend the Church only for Christmas and Easter?

You see..saying "MOST" christians, leaves an awful lot of room for questions. Who are the people you've interviewed, and do they represent the beliefs of the Christian Church as a whole, are they even good examples?

For instance, I wouldn't exactly visit Loreena Bobbit, if I wanted to ask what Catholics feel about something. I'd look for a person who seems to be a more living example of what their religion teaches, and someone who appears to have done more study into it, before seeking a debate.

Too many people, will run across someone who is the "Least" educated example of their religion (as it pertains to the religion itsself), get into an argument with them, and then say that it must represent what MOST christians feel/say/or do. But that is not necessarily so.

[Danustouch]

heh..our posts crossed.

Anyway, I do understand what you mean. But..that's exactly my point. When someone runs across some rather Ignorant Christians, they are more probable to say.."MOST" instead of "SOME", and that is why it is not acceptable. Because he ran across "SOME" ignorant christians, does not mean that "ALL" christians are that way. To let it slide, leads to misunderstanding, bias, and religious intolerance.

That is how all stereotypes start, isn't it?

[amberlaine]

I didn't think the poster was trying to condemn all of CHristendom based on his experiences. I was under the impression that he was just relaying his experiences--not necessarily trying to draw ultimate conclusions from that. I didn't see any exrapolation there--and maybe that's the crux of our disagreement, too. If indeed the poster is extrapolating as to the nature of the majority of CHristians, then I'd agree that he'd be wrong. I just didn't happen to see it that way.

[Myst]

since I would like to keep this thread on topic..

If you feel comfortable and strong in arguing with the teacher go nuts. You wouldn't catch me doing it tho. Some people just don't want to hear you and you're hurting yourself by trying to convince them.

[dragonmagic64]

i go to a Methodist college and one of the required classes is a class over jeudao/christian beliefs etc... i really dont want to take this class especially since some of the prof's pick on u ect if u arent christian (from what i've heard). i tend to be very opinionated about christianity and the past, and tend to get very defensive and ruthless during a discussion.


Hello :flamer::flamer:

:uzi::uzi:
I didn't mean to start a war. However I was staying on target. I could splice my post and the first post piece by piece ., but I'm not going to do that.

I will say that the little " pass the plate ",commet was made in jest and that the way it was taken was do to the interpetation of those who preseved it as an attack on ALL christians. Actually it was made as a poke poke, not some disrespectful hurtful comment. I appoligize for the emotional wounds I have inflicted.

:thumbsup:

i just can't help it. thats how i feel about the church and its practices of the past. i don't mean to offend anyone here with what i'm saying so please dont be. any words of wisdom would be much appreciated.


:RuNew:
I will state again, staying on topic I might add, that anytime my discussions with christains from various aspects of christianity, downgrades into a "but the BIBLE SAYS" responce , then the debate was over. Simple because we had moved from what ever the debate was about , to weather or not the bible is the ultimate truth. Of course let me also state here that interpetation of the bible is in wide debate, hence way there are so many different takes on chritianity.
If ever there is a time when a true christian questions the valitity of the bible , then well , in my opinion , that christian is begining to question thier belief system, which is growth , I fell.

:eyebrow:
so in closing , if you want to argue and fight, and get people really going, as with what I unintentionally did here, then debate in religious circles , aka , your class room in a Methodist college .


If not , then be politically correct, stay silent , and study the material that the Prof is sharring. That way you get through the class , and the class doesn't have a focal point.


On a side note.
:devil:
Although I stirred the soup , I would do it again. I said nothing that was untrue , for I spoke from my life experiances. My humor can have a little sting, and I'll watch my humor. I understand that mol was protecting the whole, which is the right of those who run the sight. I would like to appoligise once again for anything humorous that was spoken jest , but I will stand by my comments about the disintagration of debate, and the loop that many a discussion finds itself into.


p.s. Thanks Amberlaine for being able to see the real point behind the post.


Now here's a bunch of smileys so we can all be friends again.
:sunny::):wave:::p:nonono::loveduv::shift:
and for all those still in doubt. :heartthro
The REVEREND Anton. AKA dragonmagic64

p.s.s I really am a reverend :lol:

[Danustouch]

Basically...the only words of wisdom we can give you, is to try to keep an open mind, try not to lose your temper. Listen to what he says, if it rings true, accept it. If not, discard it. You probably aren't going to get out of taking the course...and if it were that much of an issue with you, why did you decide to go to that college? You must have known there would be some course you would have to take regarding the religion?? Be true to your heart, when you take the course, stand up for what you believe in, but be prepared to take the consequences of it. Or..you could just try to transfer out.

Have you spoken to your Dean about it?