Gerald Gardner and the Malay Indians

[David19]

I was just looking through some of the posts in the wicca thread and there's seems to be a lot of people saying that Gardner learnt his magic, and religious practices from a 'pre-Gardner' coven, since i'm not a expert on history or anything, i don't know if he did, but how come no one seems to be interested in what Gardner learnt from the Malay Indians, i read on a site that he learnt a lot of magic and mystical/supernatural practices from them (and others), and he was an anthropologist, so he travelled the world, he also had varied occult artifacts and items, why can't people at least accept the possiblity that even if there wasn't a 'pre-Gardner' coven, that Gardner learnt the magic from the Malay Indians and other indigineous cultures, (he did travel the east and other places i think), it still doesn't invalidate wicca or anything.

A lot of people seem to think that if there wasn't a 'pre-Gardner' coven, then it invalidates wicca, but that kind of, IMO, seems a bit arrogant and a bit racist, it's basically saying only 'European or white' forms of witchcraft are 'proper' when Malay Indians and other cultures probably can do the same or a lot more and different things (like one book, i read, African witches or sorcerers can control lightning, that may sound RPGer, but i think they might be able to).

Anyway, had anyone ever looked into this before, if yes, what were the conclusions and also what are your beliefs, do you think it's possible he learnt some of his magic from the Malay Indians and other cultures?.

Thanks.

[Ben Gruagach]

Gardner always claimed that the Wicca he was promoting was a survival of a pre-Christian British Pagan religion known as witchcraft. Basically the Margaret Murray universal witchcult claim.

I'm not aware of Gardner ever saying (at least in public or in print) that what he taught was in any way based on the magickal practices he learned about in Malay. So if he did incorporate any of that material he certainly didn't advertise it.

[Cerulean_damselfly]

I'm suggesting the little that I know right now, because I only have one book of his so far...it may be as of 1936 Gerald B. Gardner may have had excellent collective knowledge of myths and legends, of his own heritage and Malaysian-influenced cultures--but my thought is he had not had personally melded these bits of information into a belief system.

Please bear with me...within the suggested timeline...

1936-1939

http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/g/gardner_gerald_b.html

Here's the quote:

"While in the Far East Gardner became acquainted with the natives and familiar with their spiritual beliefs, which influenced him more than Christianity. He was fascinated by the ritual daggers and knives, especially the Malaysian kris; a wavy blade dagger, and wrote Kris and Other Malay Weapons, which was published in Singapore in 1939. The book established Gardner as the world authority on the kris. It remains the standard on the subject, and was reprinted posthumously in 1973.."

(End of quote)

My observation from the book of his that I have:

As far as the above paragraph, his book "Keris and Other Malay Weapons" seems to substantiate his scholarly interest in collecting such weapons and his tone is that of a gentlemanly collector who also studied in museums and consulted native peoples and others who shared his interests. He writes as an intelligent collector with a cultural anthropological bent, a touch of period pride at his British modernism that suggested the Malaysians might be superstitious in the same way British forefathers might be...

Keris and Other Malay Weapons
GB Gardner
(republished 1973 by EP Publishing Limited)
P. 59

"...this type of weapon may have started the stories, but I think the Malay's natural love of wonder tales had more to do with it.

"Our forefathers had many such stories. The spear of Lugh, for instance, if let go would fly through the air like a flaming turning this way and that as the victim tried to dodge and was so ardent that it had to be kept under water when not wanted for fear it would go killing on it's own' and the hammer of Thor, which if thrown away would always kill and fly back to its master's hand..."

(End of excerpt)

His book was published in 1936 first in a small Singapore edition of 150 copies; my guess is the 1939 date of the publishing was a second edition for a wider circulation.

But remember, from 1936-1939, more things happened to him that led him down the path to be interested in British pagan culture--and I think the later books, beginning with "the Goddess Arrives" might better suggest how his collective knowledge began 'cooking and fermenting' into something more personal, more spiritually attuned to himself and his circle...the information in Keris and Other Malay Weapons does not seem to be written as a personal believer who followed Malaysian magic...I did notice G.B.G. seemed well-acquainted with the symbology of what would be Muslim, Javanese, Sumatra, Malaysian, Indian, Chinese/Japanese in art styles for his collection of weapons...he writes as appreciative observer.

I believe that he would have started formulating all this knowledge, of both his heritage and what he collected as scholar of old civilizations, after the Keris and Other Malay Weapons book...and I look forward to aquiring other books by him to find such growth and awareness in his writing.

The rest of the biography until the book "The Goddess Arrives."
http://www.themystica.com/mystica/articles/g/gardner_gerald_b.html

(Text below)

"Between 1923 and 1936 Gardner was employed by the British government in the Far East as a rubber plantation inspector, customs official and inspector of opium establishments. He made considerable money in rubber which allowed him to dabble in his great interest of archaeology. He claimed to have discovered the site of the ancient city of Singapura.

In 1927 he married an Englishwoman Donna who returned to England with him upon his retirement from working for the government in 1936. Then much of Gardner's time was spent on archaeological trips throughout Europe and Asia Minor. It was in Cyprus that he saw things which he had previously dreamed about which convinced him that he had previously lived there in another life. (see Reincarnation)...

This was the background for his second book, A Goddess Arrives (1939). The novel is set in Cyprus and is concerned with the worship of The Goddess as Aphrodite in the year 1450 BC..."

(End of excerpt)

I hope this opinion and these snippets were helpful to interested readers,

Cerulean_Damselfly

[Cerulean_damselfly]

If you read between paragraphs 2212 and 2213 in the link below, the gradual growth of Gardner's spiritual interest over time seems to be suggested...



http://www.sacred-texts.com/bos/bos474.htm

(Text below)

"...Greatly condensed, this is a description of what came to be known as "Gardnerian Witchcraft," after Gerald Gardner (1884-1964), who retired from the British colonial customs service in Malaya in 1936, returned to England and - as he described - was initiated into what he himself thought was a dying religion in 1938.5


This was no overnight conversion: Gardner was fascinated for many years with magical religion and "practical mysticism". A recognised avocational archaeologist and anthropologist in Malay(si)a, during a visit to England in the 1920s, he set out to investigate the claims of British Spiritualists, trance mediums and the like.

As he wrote: "I have been interested in magic and kindred subjects all my life and have made a collection of magical instruments and charms.
These studies led me to spiritualist and other societies..." (6)...


(5) J.L. Bracelin, Gerald Gardner: Witch. (London: Octagon Press 1960).

(6) Gerald B. Gardner, Witchcraft Today. (London: Rider & Co., 1954),p.18
..."

(End of excerpt)

My working idea at the moment is that G.B.G. was more of a gentleman 'anthropologist' and explorer among the Malay--yes, he would have learned much as a collector of magical ritual objects, which the Keris was historically--a magical dagger--and he did supplement his growing collection with interviews and research...but as of 1936-39, I would say he was more an investigator with a very specialized interest in magical weaponry, especially the dagger...

My opinion only, that he put the "magic" together after his visions led him to write "A Goddess Arrives."

Regards,

Cerulean_Damselfly

[Meabh23]

From some (note: I said "some," not much or most) of Gardner's writings I am tempted to say he was influenced by some of the Tantric traditions from both Buddhist and Hindu religions. Some of the concepts in Wicca do have parallels in Tantric ritual. The similarities can seem uncanny. But they could have also been filtered through the work and ideas put forth by Aleister Crowley, who was most properly knowledgible about some Tantric concepts and use them in his writings and rituals.

[Cerulean_damselfly]

Meabh23 noted:

"...Gardner's writings I am tempted to say he was influenced by some of the Tantric traditions from both Buddhist and Hindu religions. Some of the concepts in Wicca do have parallels in Tantric ritual. The similarities can seem uncanny..."

Cerulean Damselfly replies

I also have "uncanny feelings of recognition" and "resonances" with what I am learning and reading, but I'm too new to learning Western wiccan and Gardenarian writings to give exact quotable parallels on the mix of what I knew or have found out about Japanese Shinto/Buddhist mixes for interested students.

But the interest in older agricultural and lunar calendars and community festivals and magical tools and circle workings all seem to have wonderful parallels...

In general though, when I think of Crowley, that definitely is a larger area of research I need to look into...thanks for your ideas of Tantra!*

It's hard to pinpoint what exact Asian concepts filtered through the generational mixes of the English-language occultist thinkers from 1900 through the 1950's--everything from Theosophy, to Krisna Murti's breakaway from the "Star of the East" to historical art tarots. But I welcome the road through research and hope others will contribute their feelings and ideas to the thread that David19 opened up!

I am very interested, as this goes along with some small studies...personal interest in my past included what Eastern concepts or interests that might have or seems to have been around in art history that seem to have fed into the design the Rider Waite Smith Tarot (1910) (from Golden Dawn); the American Knapp-Hall Tarot (1930) (from Theosophy/FreeMasonry) and Crowley-Harris Thoth (1945) (from Almost everything under the sun) Tarots...

Best regards, hope my general reply isn't too vague,

Cerulean_Damselfly

*Your suggestion of Tantric sources are wonderful for me to look into at some tme...I have noted with some reading interest and parallels in Crowley-written materials as interpreted by Lady Frieda Harris' paintings in the Thoth Tarot with Eastern concepts... how the blend of duality shows up in other writings of Alchemy; Yoga; color choices; elements and geometic symbols; descriptive personality of the court cards)...I agree it is hard to pinpoint all the essential seeds inspired by Crowley's thinking that also remind me of things such as Shiatsu, Chinese Feng Shui and East-West blends...thanks for the ideas!

[David19]

I kind of had a thought that, in Gardnerian covens, apparantly the magic practiced is greater than anything published, i thought that it might have it's origins in Malaysian magic and other inginieous(sp) cultures, instead of having its roots in a european form of magic.

Does that make sense to anyone, think it might be possible?.

[Ben Gruagach]

Just want to mention that I wrote an article about the influences found in English occultism (particularly Wicca) that originated in the east such as in India, China, and Asia in general. It's in the new issue of Circle Magazine (Spring 2006) that should now be in stores.

The next issue of Circle Magazine (Summer 2006) focuses on the South, so I have a similar article in that one too but about southern influences. And I plan to have articles on the same theme for the West and North issues when they come out later in the year too.