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View Full Version : To all and any Religio Romanas and/or Nova Romans out there...



Rasenna
April 26th, 2006, 12:27 PM
I have a paper due in my Roman History class next week, and was wondering if any of you kind folks could help me out.

The paper is to be written in the first-person. The scenerio goes like this:
"You have not been doing well in your History courses this quarter, and have accordingly decided to offer a sacrifice to the god or goddess that looks after History students. Please describe this rite in full, beginning with your efforts to identify the divinity in question and concluding with the ritual act of sacrifice itself."

What I need is the following information~
-The deity who looks after History students (I'm thinking Minerva since she is the goddess of learning and wisdom). Is there a deity that more specifically looks after JUST history students?
-His or Her preferred sacrificial animal.
-The name(s) of any pontiff(s) in first or second century CE Rome who might conduct the rite for this sacrifice.

Thanks again. I look forward to hearing from you. The paper is due next Tuesday (May 2nd, I believe is the date) at 6 p.m.

:wave:
~Rasenna

Nantonos
April 26th, 2006, 03:54 PM
Wouldn't your paterfamilias be doing the rite, if you are still at school?

You seem to assume sacrifice=animal sacrifice. Why? What is the Latin root of 'sacrifice' and what other English words contain that root?

Theres
April 26th, 2006, 04:23 PM
-The deity who looks after History students (I'm thinking Minerva since she is the goddess of learning and wisdom). Is there a deity that more specifically looks after JUST history students?

my first thought was Mercury, although Minerva makes sense too.
i also thought about the Muses. in Greek Clio was the Muse of historical writings.


-His or Her preferred sacrificial animal.

i have to agree with Nantanos here. animals were common but not exclusive sacrifices, and sacrifice itself was just one form of offering.
the Greeks would make cakes from the last of the grain harvest and use these as offerings, especially in the fertility cults (Demeter, etc).
i would imagine that there are similar precedents regarding Ceres and possibly others.


-The name(s) of any pontiff(s) in first or second century CE Rome who might conduct the rite for this sacrifice.

by this era wouldn't the Emperor himself have been the chief pontiff (PP)?
certainly there were specific Priests and Priestesses of the various temples, but the Emperor would still be the top dog, and very suitable to your needs, i think.

however as i said above, RR is not my field of expertise.

Rasenna
April 26th, 2006, 11:03 PM
Wouldn't your paterfamilias be doing the rite, if you are still at school?

You seem to assume sacrifice=animal sacrifice. Why? What is the Latin root of 'sacrifice' and what other English words contain that root?

Well, my history professor seems to think that I would go to the temple and the pontiff would be doing the rite.
He also is under the impression that all sacrifices needed for something done at the temple would be some type of animal sacrifice.
Is anyone actually going to answer my questions?

Rasenna
April 26th, 2006, 11:05 PM
my first thought was Mercury, although Minerva makes sense too.
i also thought about the Muses. in Greek Clio was the Muse of historical writings.



i have to agree with Nantanos here. animals were common but not exclusive sacrifices, and sacrifice itself was just one form of offering.
the Greeks would make cakes from the last of the grain harvest and use these as offerings, especially in the fertility cults (Demeter, etc).
i would imagine that there are similar precedents regarding Ceres and possibly others.



by this era wouldn't the Emperor himself have been the chief pontiff (PP)?
certainly there were specific Priests and Priestesses of the various temples, but the Emperor would still be the top dog, and very suitable to your needs, i think.

however as i said above, RR is not my field of expertise.

Yeah, but did the Romans actually view the Muses as Goddesses?
I really do need a Roman--and not Greek--deity here...
Yes, the emporer would have been the chief pontiff, but I am sure that he was not the *only* pontiff. It may not be necessary to name the pontiff, but it might get me a higher grade if I do.
I need some real answers here, folks!
-R

Cerulean_damselfly
April 26th, 2006, 11:44 PM
I took a series of humanities and art history courses on Western Civilizations and the Nine Muses were both recognized under Greek and Roman writers in allegory. Clio is the muse of history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muse

http://www.tamu-commerce.edu/history/Clio.htm

This site gives a few specifics, as Clio was one of the daughters of Saturn and Mnemoyne, etc., and some ritual information, including sacrifices:

http://library.thinkquest.org/CR0210200/ancient_rome/gods.htm

In addition, the Roman Calendar at this site gives some interesting tidbits, and it may assist your research-June 12-June 15th seems to have been a Roman celebration and the nine muses are mentioned:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/RomanCalendar/jun11.htm

And lastly, two images--

1) if you have the patience to scroll down, there is a picture of a mosaic of the Nine Muses--identified as Roman (The Nine Muses Roman mosaic found in Kos, 1st Century BC, Great Master's Palace, Rhodas):

http://www.timelessmyths.com/classical/lessergods.html

2) And Calliope, the "leader of the pack" (eldest sister of the nine), is in the 3rd century mosaic here - so I think it's safe to say the Nine Muses were recognized in art in the Roman pantheon in the first and third centuries:

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.umich.edu/~homeros/Artgallerypages/mosaicpage_files/image002.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.umich.edu/~homeros/Artgallerypages/mosaicpage.htm&h=488&w=374&sz=43&tbnid=c-j5PQK4mIgT5M:&tbnh=127&tbnw=97&hl=en&start=1&prev=/images%3Fq%3DNine%2BMuses%2BRoman%2Bmosaic%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official_s%26sa%3DG

I think you still have time...this seems to agree with what I remember and have checked out recently.

Best regards,

Cerulean_Damselfly

Rasenna
April 26th, 2006, 11:48 PM
Thank you, damselfly. I will definiately look into this tomorrow.
: )

Theres
April 27th, 2006, 12:14 AM
Is anyone actually going to answer my questions?


I need some real answers here, folks!

good luck with that.

Nantonos
April 27th, 2006, 05:16 AM
Yeah, but did the Romans actually view the Muses as Goddesses?
I really do need a Roman--and not Greek--deity here...
Yes, the emporer would have been the chief pontiff, but I am sure that he was not the *only* pontiff. It may not be necessary to name the pontiff, but it might get me a higher grade if I do.
I need some real answers here, folks!
-R

Since you were upfront about this being a graded paper for a class, I assumed you wanted guidance rather than someone to write it for you. That is why I posed a couple of questions to get you thinking.

Rasenna
April 27th, 2006, 03:19 PM
Since you were upfront about this being a graded paper for a class, I assumed you wanted guidance rather than someone to write it for you. That is why I posed a couple of questions to get you thinking.

I'm not asking you or anyone else to write the eight page paper for me. But when someone only hints at things rather than saying (a) is the god/dess of history students, (b) these are the names of some pontiffs who would be likely candidates to perform the rite and (c) animal x or play y is this god/dess's preferred sacrifice, then I either have to assume that you don't know or you're deliberately trying to be coy for some reason.
Look, if someone came on this board asking me about the Etruscan religion, and had some VERY specific questions, I would answer those questions. I wouldn't allude to anything, and if I didn't know, I would say "I don't know." Thanks a lot. You made me feel as if I were wasting your precious time. I'm sure that this post will make me fall in to disfavor with you, but I came on here asking for real help, and instead you've accused me of trying to plageurize your knowledge and take credit for it. What gives?

Theres
April 27th, 2006, 06:44 PM
ooooh, point missed! tsk tsk, too bad.

wanna take another shot at it, or am i being too vague?

Driffinna
April 27th, 2006, 07:25 PM
Yeah, but did the Romans actually view the Muses as Goddesses?
I really do need a Roman--and not Greek--deity here...
Yes, the emporer would have been the chief pontiff, but I am sure that he was not the *only* pontiff. It may not be necessary to name the pontiff, but it might get me a higher grade if I do.
I need some real answers here, folks!
-R

You know there are these wonderful things called libraries. I am sure if you went there and a did a bit of research on your own you would find the answers. A lot more productive than waiting around for someone on a forum to give you the answers.

Philosophia
April 27th, 2006, 07:35 PM
What I need is the following information~
-The deity who looks after History students (I'm thinking Minerva since she is the goddess of learning and wisdom). Is there a deity that more specifically looks after JUST history students?

Either Minerva or Clio (to be on the safer side, go for Minerva).


-His or Her preferred sacrificial animal.

Heifer or sheep


-The name(s) of any pontiff(s) in first or second century CE Rome who might conduct the rite for this sacrifice.


Check here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontifex_Maximus) or here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popes).
(both wikipedia sources so use with a pinch of salt)

Rasenna
April 27th, 2006, 09:11 PM
You know there are these wonderful things called libraries. I am sure if you went there and a did a bit of research on your own you would find the answers. A lot more productive than waiting around for someone on a forum to give you the answers.

Boy, ask for a little help on a board, and everyone gets the snits! Driffinna, I am quite well-aware that there are things called libraries. I happen to work in one on campus, and I have been there. I figured someone calling themselves a "Recon" might know a bit of information. I thought MW was supposed to be a resource as well as a discussion area. I think you're right. Going to the library WOULD be a lot more productive! Books don't tend to sneer at honest questions and play one-upmanship. Believe me, I *won't* be making the mistake of naively trying to get an honest answer out of the majority of people on this board again! Thanks for those of you who DID choose to try and assist me. You seem to be a rarity around here. Maybe I'll try my luck in "Just Talk" instead...
Sigh!

Xentor
April 28th, 2006, 06:49 AM
Rasenna,

If you want that grade to hold any value for yourself, you should do the work yourself. Be glad that people come and think with you. Sure, that remark about libraries could've been formatted nicer, but hey, we're in a free board in a free country. People are free to answer how they want, as long as they abide by our rules.

To everyone: I strongly suggest that everyone limits helping with home-work to pointing in the right direction. Students aren't going to learn if you give them all the answers on a silver platter.

Harmony Aurore
April 28th, 2006, 08:08 AM
Rasenna,

If you want that grade to hold any value for yourself, you should do the work yourself. Be glad that people come and think with you. Sure, that remark about libraries could've been formatted nicer, but hey, we're in a free board in a free country. People are free to answer how they want, as long as they abide by our rules.

To everyone: I strongly suggest that everyone limits helping with home-work to pointing in the right direction. Students aren't going to learn if you give them all the answers on a silver platter.


I completely agree with you... which some people would with think is odd, since i'm a student. I mean, some people picked up some great resources from the web. How hard is that for a start out point?

Driffinna
April 28th, 2006, 09:37 AM
Rasenna,

If you want that grade to hold any value for yourself, you should do the work yourself. Be glad that people come and think with you. Sure, that remark about libraries could've been formatted nicer, but hey, we're in a free board in a free country. People are free to answer how they want, as long as they abide by our rules.

To everyone: I strongly suggest that everyone limits helping with home-work to pointing in the right direction. Students aren't going to learn if you give them all the answers on a silver platter.

I agree. Which is why when she started demanding "real answers" that I answered the way I did. I will admit I am not a Roman Recon, but my roommate here is a huge Roman buff. If she had asked for good resource suggestions I would have gladly gone to my roommate and gotten several book titles to look up. Even if she had recongnized that the previous posts were answering her questions even if they weren't 'specific' I probably would have even been less harsh in my reply. But instead she wanted the answers fed to her. So I got snarky. *shrugs* oh well.

Rasenna
April 28th, 2006, 12:30 PM
I completely agree with you... which some people would with think is odd, since i'm a student. I mean, some people picked up some great resources from the web. How hard is that for a start out point?

And I thanked the one person who did this for me. I had also been to Nova Roma prior to coming here and found little in the way of answers. Again, I in no way asked anyone to write the paper for me--I simply wanted the base points since what I was doing on my own was keeping me coming up dry. It really does seem like this sector of MW is more interested in showing others up than having a sense of comraderie. To say that I am disappointed would be an understatement. To assume that a) I hadn't tried other resources first and b) that I don't know how to use a library (when I am probably one of the few on campus who actually do--again I work in the library so I've seen the results of students not learning library skills prior to college first-hand!) is pretty self-congratulatory. If I came on a little strong, it was only because I have a deadline to meet, and I want to do very well on this paper.

Rasenna
April 28th, 2006, 12:35 PM
I agree. Which is why when she started demanding "real answers" that I answered the way I did. I will admit I am not a Roman Recon, but my roommate here is a huge Roman buff. If she had asked for good resource suggestions I would have gladly gone to my roommate and gotten several book titles to look up. Even if she had recongnized that the previous posts were answering her questions even if they weren't 'specific' I probably would have even been less harsh in my reply. But instead she wanted the answers fed to her. So I got snarky. *shrugs* oh well.

Again, the reason why I tried this board was because I had exhausted my other resources. No one bothered to point out real resources except for one person (who I don't believe is a Roman Recon either). AND ONCE AGAIN, I *had* noticed when someone *did* actually attempt to help me, rather than just trying to be vague and coy with me (which, I'm sorry, is EXACTLY how the majority of the people on this board came across). And for everyone's information, it may not be breaking the rules, but there is no reason to act like this. I posted the same thing on a yahoo Interfaith Recon board and no one felt there seemed to feel that they had to show me up. They recognized, and understood, that asking for a few specifics does not = asking anyone to draft an entire eight-paged paper! It's called critical thinking, folks--learn to differentiate, huh?
I'm done, even if you're not.

Rasenna
April 28th, 2006, 12:37 PM
I agree. Which is why when she started demanding "real answers" that I answered the way I did. I will admit I am not a Roman Recon, but my roommate here is a huge Roman buff. If she had asked for good resource suggestions I would have gladly gone to my roommate and gotten several book titles to look up. Even if she had recongnized that the previous posts were answering her questions even if they weren't 'specific' I probably would have even been less harsh in my reply. But instead she wanted the answers fed to her. So I got snarky. *shrugs* oh well.

Again, the reason why I tried this board was because I had exhausted my other resources. No one bothered to point out real resources except for one person (who I don't believe is a Roman Recon either). AND ONCE AGAIN, I *had* noticed when someone *did* actually attempt to help me, rather than just trying to be vague and coy with me (which, I'm sorry, is EXACTLY how the majority of the people on this board came across). And for everyone's information, it may not be breaking the rules, but there is no reason to act like this. I posted the same thing on a yahoo Interfaith Recon board and no one felt there seemed to feel that they had to show me up. They recognized, and understood, that asking for a few specifics does not = asking anyone to draft an entire eight-paged paper! It's called critical thinking, folks--learn to differentiate, huh?
I'm done, even if you're not.

David19
April 28th, 2006, 04:01 PM
I'm not sure if this site helps, but it's a Roman Reconstructionist site reading list (http://www.religioromana.net/suggested-reading.htm), plus here's some information on the Roman pantheon (http://www.religioromana.net/dii_consentes/diiconsentes.htm).

Anyway, hope this helps :).

Harmony Aurore
April 29th, 2006, 06:52 AM
i think that if you hadn't been so snippy/pushy to everyone, there wouldn't have been a problem.