Ummm...Servitors?

[Karyan]

How many of you here believe in servitors?

An assistant or servant, although in the magical world, the servitor is not usually held against it's will. A semi-permanent thoughtform created by a magical practitioner that helps them achieve their goals.

Mostly used in Chaos magick from what I gather. I've read about them at the Occult Forums and they speak of them as if they're actual, visible, entities that are created by the practitioner himself... Seems a little far fetched to me...

[Jolixte]

I have several Chaos Magician friends that claim to make them. I've never been round them when they do so I wouldn't know.

[Malcolm]

Sounds like a tulpa to me, some kind of Tibetan thingy...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulpa

[Teresa]

Ya sounds like a thoughtform and there are some people here that believe in them.

[fangedeshana]

Ya sounds like a thoughtform and there are some people here that believe in them.

Agreed. Also, if someone does believe in a servitor, or thoughtform or anything similar, why shouldn't they be able to see it? It doesn't mean that other can, or even that the person who sees it is seeing it with their physical eyes.

I have had experiences where I have thought I was seeing something impossible in the physical... after examining all the sensations I was feeling, it felt like when I was looking with my mind's eye - though my physical eyes were open, it was my third eye preceving the image I saw.

[mtpathy]

How many of you here believe in servitors?



Mostly used in Chaos magick from what I gather. I've read about them at the Occult Forums and they speak of them as if they're actual, visible, entities that are created by the practitioner himself... Seems a little far fetched to me...


There are vastly different schools of thought when it comes to the manipulation and creation of thoughtforms,or servitors/egregors.
The most common method of this seems to be the Westernized idea of Chaos Magick,which is a spinoff from kabbalah,there are however other schools of Chaos Magick that don't follow Western thought,and lean more heavily towards Eastern Thought of Zen and Buddhism.
The biggest difference between the two is within the Western Mind of Chaos Magick,servitor & egregor are created through sigils,where in the Eastern mind and strangley in the majority of Native American and shamanism egregor/servitor aren't created through sigils but through recognizing parts of self "negative or positive",and either demonizing them,or angelizing "lol if thats a word" them,these would imo be most closely associated to totems or familiers.
There is enough hints within this post to give you plenty of information to study or work with yourself if you feel so inclined.
salutations

[coeur]

There are plenty of schools of magic that use servitors...not just chaos magic.

But yes, I do use them.

[mtpathy]

There are plenty of schools of magic that use servitors...not just chaos magic.

But yes, I do use them.

agreed,but there seems to only be two kinds of thought on how to create
and work with them.
salutations

[Karyan]

Hmmm...I suppose I did come off as having somewhat of a close minded tone in my first post now that I look back on it. I am new to magic so I don't really know what's possible. You've all got me very curious though. :smile:

[coeur]

Well servitors are largely spiritual errand boys. They're useful and they come from you so you don't owe them anything at the end of the day. They also tend to be reabsorbed or destroyed after they've served their use.

[mtpathy]

Well servitors are largely spiritual errand boys. They're useful and they come from you so you don't owe them anything at the end of the day. They also tend to be reabsorbed or destroyed after they've served their use.

that term is simply giving this sentience a designation,a egregor,talpa,
totem,or familiar are the same thing,there simply different designations.
you can either "program" it.and have it run out it's program.
or it can be created through outward manifestation of a inward "realisation".
this isnt programming but giving sentience to a inward manifestation,very
much akin to conjuring imo is the exact same thing,and conjuring is very
similar to posession.
all of these fall under the category of servitor and egregor.
salutations

[anagarically]

Just a funny thought to add fuel into some fire. Might be a good topic for it's own thread, but I am not up to doing all the typing to put it forward correctly. But...
Why just stop with the idea of tulpa's/thoughtforms.. If you accept the idea of tulpa's.. then the next logical step is understanding that all 'gods'.. spirits.. entities.. are thoughtforms.. or patterns of energy that fit certain parameters and rules.. the more energy or thought is given this 'thing'.. the stronger it gets.... Some see a flaw here.. as in spirits and gods that don't do what we want.. but really.. aren't they just following the preset programming.. even when they do what we want.. our idea of them.. no matter our feelings for them.. is the same.. and we continue projecting that pattern. And as for 'independent' spirits.. just spirits following their original.. or 'buggy' programming...

also.. why stop here.. reality.. yes.. the final place to look.. just why couldn't reality be a nice little mutually agreed apon setup.. reality is only supported by those existing within that reality.. within very complex sets of rules.. parameters.. and programming.. why not... would explain not only certain weird things science can't seem to grasp.. but also the whole idea of 'magick' ... changing the agreed upon reality.. to your will... but you have to follow certain rules.. and understand.. or at least have a good comprehension of the 'API'.. :-P.. anyways.. i have said enough.. half of what i have said is nice little jokes here and there... not for serious discussion.. but.. it can be.. something to just wonder about.. hehehe

anagarically

[coeur]

that term is simply giving this sentience a designation,a egregor,talpa,
totem,or familiar are the same thing,there simply different designations.
you can either "program" it.and have it run out it's program.
or it can be created through outward manifestation of a inward "realisation".
this isnt programming but giving sentience to a inward manifestation,very
much akin to conjuring imo is the exact same thing,and conjuring is very
similar to posession.
all of these fall under the category of servitor and egregor.
salutations

While it is possible for most servitors to reach egregore state thanks to the Internet, it's usually too bothersome of an activity for most magicians. I'd say that at lease 90% of servitors never reach the errand-boy stage. Servitors do have the capability of evolving a consciousness through repeated use, though, I'm not really interested in making anything like that.

As far as I am concerned, I don't believe that anything is as straight forward as "things exist in greater consciousness and power through increased energy" because 1) that statement is pretty iffy on what constitutes as 'consciousness' and 'energy' and 'power.' and 2) I don't think that there's really any one way to think of things (it's too simple).

Existence is a very complex thing and I think that any one thing at any one time has multiple layers of existence. For example, I believe that I exist, so I exist in my mind. You probably believe I exist as well so I exist in your mind, but in a different way. I exist, to some level, objectively, so I exist in my own right. The list goes on and on. All of these existences are part of me, but no one ways is precisely what I am. Ultimately, a being's existence cannot be simply be explained as 'this' or 'that.'

Frankly, we know a whole lot less about the Universe than what we pretend. Existence, which, is obviously natural for us, is quite strange of a circumstance to be in. And creation of existence, is oftentimes more complicated than what we expect. It's not necessarily hard per se, but it's not as streamlined as what we think it is. It's also this uncertainty that allows magicians to do things like paradigm shift...

Oh and as for the initial shock value of magicians creating entities and then using them for 'holy' or 'magical' purposes, we ought to first consider gods and what makes them gods (to us) to begin with. I'm sure the first things we'd say would be immortality and power, but, not all gods have immortality or power. What really makes a deity is our acknowledgement of them as a deity. After all, a king cannot rule if there is no one to acknowledge his authority. Similarly, gods would be very rarely be worshipped if we didn't believe that they had some sort of power and influence in our lives.

[mtpathy]

Just a funny thought to add fuel into some fire. Might be a good topic for it's own thread, but I am not up to doing all the typing to put it forward correctly. But...
Why just stop with the idea of tulpa's/thoughtforms.. If you accept the idea of tulpa's.. then the next logical step is understanding that all 'gods'.. spirits.. entities.. are thoughtforms.. or patterns of energy that fit certain parameters and rules.. the more energy or thought is given this 'thing'.. the stronger it gets.... Some see a flaw here.. as in spirits and gods that don't do what we want.. but really.. aren't they just following the preset programming.. even when they do what we want.. our idea of them.. no matter our feelings for them.. is the same.. and we continue projecting that pattern. And as for 'independent' spirits.. just spirits following their original.. or 'buggy' programming...

also.. why stop here.. reality.. yes.. the final place to look.. just why couldn't reality be a nice little mutually agreed apon setup.. reality is only supported by those existing within that reality.. within very complex sets of rules.. parameters.. and programming.. why not... would explain not only certain weird things science can't seem to grasp.. but also the whole idea of 'magick' ... changing the agreed upon reality.. to your will... but you have to follow certain rules.. and understand.. or at least have a good comprehension of the 'API'.. :-P.. anyways.. i have said enough.. half of what i have said is nice little jokes here and there... not for serious discussion.. but.. it can be.. something to just wonder about.. hehehe

anagarically


Instead of simply looking at "god" in this light,take a deep look inside
yourself,what makes us any different then egregor or servitor,when something
negative happens to us,we color that experience in the context of "bad",when
something good happens we color that experience in "positive".
We search for experiences we consider positive,we shy away from the
experiences that are considered negative.

Either way we reflect our good and negative experiences outwardly into the
world,which creates a way for us to displace ourselves from it.
displacing ourselves from the world,means that we define the world through
our own ideas of good or bad, and we define what we are by these
experiences.

In affect our idea of individuality,conciousness and soul,is nothing more
then our programmed reactions from our past and our expectations of the
future,that is what is used to conjure our present.

there's very little difference between us and egregor.

[Sev]

How many of you here believe in servitors?



Mostly used in Chaos magick from what I gather. I've read about them at the Occult Forums and they speak of them as if they're actual, visible, entities that are created by the practitioner himself... Seems a little far fetched to me...

They're useful.

Servitors are ... complex spells, split personalities, many things depending on who you ask and what they think at the time.

If you're thinking in classical terms, a servitor is like a summoned demon, or an elemental -- a spun-off magical 'creature' that does stuff for you.

Other ways to think of them are as coprocessors -- dividing up a chunk of your mind to handle stuff for you.

[Alkhemia]

To clarify a few things...

Firstly, I think it's wise to take a lot of what's posted at OF (or anywhere else on the web, for that matter) with a grain of salt. Aside from a few posters there who actually know what they are talking about, it seems that a lot of folks are either armchair occultists or people who want to get 'cred' by posting increasingly fantastical, impossible and outrageous garbage in order to sound 'hardcore.' In some ways, it's the nature of the beast (lol not, To Mega Therion/Crowley) for people attracted to the occult to create some Walter Mitty-like online life.

As for servitors, in my experience, they are far more 'substantial' than thoughtforms. By 'substantial,' I do not mean that I can actually see them with my physical eyes or that they are out cleaning my bedroom everyday. Regardless, I do not agree that they are a part of my mind. (To his credit, Crowley in his introduction to The Goetia posited that the demons were part of his mind - but, many others, myself included, disagree with him.) Instead, I believe that servitors are created and shaped by the Will - they are created, not projected outward from the depths of my subconscious. Servitors are charged with a specific task - I usually choose a physical object to 'anchor' the servitor and I 'feed' it until it has completed its task. In the end, my approach to 'feeding' the servitor probably has more in common with some Santeria and Palo practices than with just directing mental energy toward it. I might use a sigil in conjunction with my servitor - but, it isn't a necessity.

As someone else said, many other magickal 'schools' use servitors - not just the chaotes. However, some of the chaos magicians have done a damn fine job refining some methods for creating servitors and there is a lot to learn from them. There is also a book, Creating Magical Entities (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1932517448/002-8393764-5731228), that goes into servitor creation/upkeep and it is a decent starting point. With that being said, I would absolutely quibble with the statement made that Chaos Magic is some outgrowth of the Kabbalah - this hasn't been my experience or the experience of many other CM's I know. At the end of the day, the effective creation of a servitor takes practice and experimentation. Books and online articles can give a good reference point, but what "works" for me (or Hine, Cunningham, etc.) may not be what "works" for someone else. As with most things in magick - following a cookbook-style formula with little to no personal reflection, thought and effort will be pretty fruitless.

The Chaosmatrix site (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/sseg.php) has some decent stuff on servitors as does Phil Hine's (http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/index_spirits.html) site.

[Xander67]

Servitors are usefull in many ways, not just in chaos magic...

you can use them in your meditations and astral journeys...
(for those of you who get out much lol)

[mtpathy]

To clarify a few things...

Firstly, I think it's wise to take a lot of what's posted at OF (or anywhere else on the web, for that matter) with a grain of salt. Aside from a few posters there who actually know what they are talking about, it seems that a lot of folks are either armchair occultists or people who want to get 'cred' by posting increasingly fantastical, impossible and outrageous garbage in order to sound 'hardcore.' In some ways, it's the nature of the beast (lol not, To Mega Therion/Crowley) for people attracted to the occult to create some Walter Mitty-like online life.

As for servitors, in my experience, they are far more 'substantial' than thoughtforms. By 'substantial,' I do not mean that I can actually see them with my physical eyes or that they are out cleaning my bedroom everyday. Regardless, I do not agree that they are a part of my mind. (To his credit, Crowley in his introduction to The Goetia posited that the demons were part of his mind - but, many others, myself included, disagree with him.) Instead, I believe that servitors are created and shaped by the Will - they are created, not projected outward from the depths of my subconscious. Servitors are charged with a specific task - I usually choose a physical object to 'anchor' the servitor and I 'feed' it until it has completed its task. In the end, my approach to 'feeding' the servitor probably has more in common with some Santeria and Palo practices than with just directing mental energy toward it. I might use a sigil in conjunction with my servitor - but, it isn't a necessity.

As someone else said, many other magickal 'schools' use servitors - not just the chaotes. However, some of the chaos magicians have done a damn fine job refining some methods for creating servitors and there is a lot to learn from them. There is also a book, Creating Magical Entities (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1932517448/002-8393764-5731228), that goes into servitor creation/upkeep and it is a decent starting point. With that being said, I would absolutely quibble with the statement made that Chaos Magic is some outgrowth of the Kabbalah - this hasn't been my experience or the experience of many other CM's I know. At the end of the day, the effective creation of a servitor takes practice and experimentation. Books and online articles can give a good reference point, but what "works" for me (or Hine, Cunningham, etc.) may not be what "works" for someone else. As with most things in magick - following a cookbook-style formula with little to no personal reflection, thought and effort will be pretty fruitless.

The Chaosmatrix site (http://www.chaosmatrix.org/library/sseg.php) has some decent stuff on servitors as does Phil Hine's (http://www.philhine.org.uk/writings/index_spirits.html) site.



Again from my observations the true difference between the easternized and westernized approach to conjuring,and creating egregor and servitor is simply through there approach to working with it.
Within the westernized mind, conjuring is approached in a adversarial mind state,the practitioner conquers the entity by trapping it through a elaborate prison of ritual and symbols,they force it to do there bidding,as one would seem to force a caged animal. There is respect there for what is created,but that respect is had by there fears of it,and there "on the edge of there seat"
control over it.
However the Easternized idea of creating this entity seems to be approached by the acceptance that what is being reflected back to us,for us to experience; is simply what we conciously or unconciously give "send" into the world.
We are in turn seeing ourselves in many different mirrors,the faces are different for each of the unique mirrors,but the vibration is the same which is that its simply unexplored parts of ourselves.
There is no control or lack of control over conjuring in this way,there is simply accepting it as being part of yourself,and by doing this "being" that part of yourself.
I do however believe that the one true key,"if there truly is one",is that in order to conjure egregor or servitor,that theres a state of mind that one has to obtain,that state would be a moment of disassociation with the emotions you've used to conjure said servitor or egregor through the rituals and symbols that were built to create this state.
And that the act of disassociation is the act of conjuring, it doesn't matter how you dress the act up,be it through ritual or simply sitting with your feelings and letting them create there own skin to wear if it doesn't have that moment of disassociation then it won't be created.
Im still a big believer that Chaos Magick and its workings is much better suited to the broad spectrum of Zen and Buddhism,but then what do i know ive never met a Chaos Practitioner other then myself that has used this exclusively with Eastern beliefs and idiologies before.
salutations

[RunningRiot]

I believe in them, seeing as how I have one.

[mtpathy]

everyone has atlest one,its just a matter of lookind deep enough to discover
where or how they're expressing themselves in your life.
many see this as a way of conjuring something from thin air *poof* rabbit
out of the hat.
me personally ive always seen it as discovering parts of yourself that you
were afraid to confront, or parts of yourself you didn't know existed.
being afraid of,or running away from those parts of yourself is what would
"conjure" those parts into the world where one would mistake them as being
outside of self and give it the illusion of sentience.

[Grimr]

Ya sounds like a thoughtform and there are some people here that believe in them.

Makes sense to me.

One of the unique things about humanity that seperates it from so many other beings and creatures is our power of invention.

Through the spirit world and through our creative powers it is possible.

Since these servitors are created out of thought it makes sense that they become temporarily as thoughts in the minds often replace themselves over time in memory.