A Morrighan Misnomer...

[MacMorrighan]

Okay, I gotta' vent, briefly: What's with the Pagans unwilling to relenquish their cherished (though one wonders why!) ideolog that The Morrighan is a War-Goddess (period), and anyone who disagrees is deposed with bellicose furvor as being a "Fluffy Bunny" or, more insulting IMHO, a "history revisionist" thus engaging in a sort of character assasination from which there is little recovery given these peripheral arguments. Indeed, scholars are, quickly, ditching this "War-Goddess" ideology, for there is almost no supportive evidence for such a thesis!

Then.,..you have those who question those whom the Goddess calls if they appear to be a Pacifist, as if they believe one is being less than honest with them, and deserve serious skepticism in turn, for no other reason than their respective personality traits-- this may be because it is believed by many Pagans that the "Celts" were a "Warrior Aristocracy," however, this has also been questions by scholars; thus, by extension, is also probably calls into question Georges Dumezilian's tripartite Indo-European theory!

[Psycmoe]

Pardon my severe lack of information, but as far as I can recall, wasn't Morrighan more a goddess of the dead? Or rather, one who lead them to their proper places?

(Dimey - doesn't know much, but wants to know more.)

[DandelionDame]

Well, maybe it's the fact that in Irish mythology (The Tain) The Morrigan was typically very involved with Warriors (Cu Chulainn). She essentially offered him sovereignty (which I also believe was one of Her traits), and when he didn't recognize Her, She shapeshifted into many guises to hinder him in battle. She also was very, very involved throughout The Tain (which I'm assuming you've read), and not exactly in a motherly fashion. Her actions strongly suggested Warrior.

And of course in the Second Battle of Mag Tuired, She was very involved there too, and not just sitting back away from the battle and healing wounded soldiers.

In every tale we have of Her, she was *intimately* associated with battle, and often with the dead as a result of battle. Whether or not She physically fought, or cast spells is pretty much beside the point. She was up in the battles.

So what's so bad about considering Her a Warrior Goddess? I don't see what the issue is. She was a Warrior Goddess, among other things, such as Sovereignty, and in the time of the Celts, the two were not mutually exclusive. Hell, they're not mutually exclusive in this day and age either, really.

Plus, I don't know many people who think of the Celts as a "Warrior Aristocracy" - the most exciting tales were about the Warriors, but I think its obvious that the Warriors were there to defend the common people and their way of life, not to rule over them. It was a job, and a calling, just like farming or any other job or calling. Hence the Warriors' geis to not pick fights with civilians or rather, those they were in service of defending. No Aristocracy there that I can see.

[Agaliha]

Well if she's not a Warrior Goddess than all the resources out there must be wrong...and that doesn't make sense.

All these mention her warrior aspect:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/morrigan.html
http://inanna.virtualave.net/morrigan.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrigan
Plus billions more--I'm not kidding.

The point is she is a warrior/war goddess, but that's not all she is. She like every deity has many aspects.

[Philosophia]

Why can't she be a warrior goddess?

[MacMorrighan]

Well, maybe it's the fact that in Irish mythology (The Tain) The Morrigan was typically very involved with Warriors (Cu Chulainn). She essentially offered him sovereignty (which I also believe was one of Her traits), and when he didn't recognize Her, She shapeshifted into many guises to hinder him in battle. She also was very, very involved throughout The Tain (which I'm assuming you've read), and not exactly in a motherly fashion. Her actions strongly suggested Warrior.

According to Prof. Maire Herbert-- associate Prof. of early & Medieval irish studies-- this is merely a clerical redaction meant, for no other purposer, to make Cu appear heroic.

And, in fact, there's a great deal of evidence that portrays her as a Mother-Goddess, but also actually originating as a Mother-Goddess. However, She is also tracible to the Neolithic Bird-Goddess, as well.

And of course in the Second Battle of Mag Tuired, She was very involved there too, and not just sitting back away from the battle and healing wounded soldiers.

Ah...scholars unanimously agree, however, that She never actually engages in battle. Indeed, it appears to be amongst the Gods, if anything else, which not only doesn't make Her a "War-Goddess" but seems more like the Aspect of a Tutelary-Goddess rather than any associations with "war": the "Celtic" concept of war is not as we imagine it, but inter-tribal cattle raids!

In every tale we have of Her, she was *intimately* associated with battle, and often with the dead as a result of battle. Whether or not She physically fought, or cast spells is pretty much beside the point. She was up in the battles.

Nope, I gotta' disagree with this assessment of the evidence. What people often try to do to validate their "War-Goddess" a priory assumption is point to the instance in which She deprives a king of the blood of his heart, and alledgely passes it around. Well, what they ignore is that, in that same tale, he appears unharmed later on!

But, even if one DOES intimately associate her with "battle," that doesn't make her a War-Goddess, any more than it would make the Virgin Mary a "War-Goddess" who was prayed to and worshipped for success in batttle-- if anything, it is the clearest example of Her being a Tutelary-Goddess.

What I have been observing is scholars over throwing these 20th century assumptions such as "War-Goddess," for example, in favour of such terms as "Tutelary-Goddess". In fact, recent academia is seriously questioning the "Celtic Warrior Aristocracy" assumption-- Pagans oftewn point to this and say, "Well, they were a warrior elite, so it would onl have ben natural that they would have a Goddess whose PRIMARY function is war!" They envisage Her as a Goddess of carnage, or as the calculating cool mind/mentality of a serial killer-- there's no supportive evidence of this.

Even Miranda Green's earlier claim for a so-called "iconography" of any so-called "War-Goddess" has been overturned by other research, nd even indirectly by herself in The Quest for the Shaman.

So what's so bad about considering Her a Warrior Goddess? I don't see what the issue is. She was a Warrior Goddess, among other things, such as Sovereignty, and in the time of the Celts, the two were not mutually exclusive. Hell, they're not mutually exclusive in this day and age either, really.

But, the fact remains, She was never a "warrior goddess". There is faar more to the Celktic Gods than the recorded myths-- one must also read the scholarship on the matter, rather than accept the translated narrative literature at face value, thus imposing their ideology onto the evidence at hand.

Take Care,
Wade

P.S.--If I'd forgotten to mention it, what REALLY irritates me are those snotty Pagans that actually question those whom a God/dess chooses, as if they don't believe them and seem to imply that the individual is lying and actually chose the God/dess in question in stead! WTF?

[MacMorrighan]

Well if she's not a Warrior Goddess than all the resources out there must be wrong...and that doesn't make sense.

All these mention her warrior aspect:
http://www.pantheon.org/articles/m/morrigan.html
http://inanna.virtualave.net/morrigan.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morrigan
Plus billions more--I'm not kidding.

The point is she is a warrior/war goddess, but that's not all she is. She like every deity has many aspects.

That depends, entirely, upon what you mean by "resources"-- this thesis has been in a process of collapse amongst academe for about 15 years! Also, please note that none of the above sites are written by specialists in the field. In fact, they are based ONLY on the VERY EARLY academic assumption. Indeed, to schoalrs, She is, ina ctuality, an Earth-Goddess (something many Pagans seem to find threatening, because they have accused me of "twisting the words of scholars to suit [my] own personal agenda" which is far from the truth!).

All my best,
Wade

[Tadrith]

Alright, I bite.

If everything is wrong, how about you put out something that is right?

I'm a bit confused with your statement however. Brigid is considered the "Mother Goddess" among the Irish pantheons, she gave birth to the Tuaithe Dé afterall. She is also much older (in the myth) than The Morrigan. Why would there be two "Earth Goddesses" in a pantheon which emphasises singular, specialised roles by the gods?

Tad

[skilly-nilly]

You already started a thread about this subject:
http://mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=129329

where you said
"Generally, out of simplicity, and in adopting a Classicist ideology, Pagans have, for the most part, taken to making the Gods rather "simplistic" and making them, for example of "War" or "Love" or "Death" for example. However, to the consternation of many such Pagans, this is reallt inappropriate-- they are far more complex than that! "

I agree with this. I don't identify myself sole by my job, or my family, or my interests, or my religion----why should we so narrowly define the Gods Who (I assume) are more complex than we?

But I disagree with your statement
"There is faar more to the Celktic Gods than the recorded myths-- one must also read the scholarship on the matter, rather than accept the translated narrative literature at face value, thus imposing their ideology onto the evidence at hand."

If you want others to accept your gnosis and interactions with The Great Queen then why shouldn't we accept what other's interactions were as equally valid? What is reported in folklore, imo, is what is.

ps--re-reading for typos and spell-checking are your friends.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

Alright, I bite.

If everything is wrong, how about you put out something that is right?

I'm a bit confused with your statement however. Brigid is considered the "Mother Goddess" among the Irish pantheons, she gave birth to the Tuaithe Dé afterall. She is also much older (in the myth) than The Morrigan. Why would there be two "Earth Goddesses" in a pantheon which emphasises singular, specialised roles by the gods?

Tad

I believe Danu is the mother goddess of the pantheon, giving them the name Tuatha De Danann. And it's been my experience with most panthenons that there are not singular roles for the gods, but they are known or referred to by many names and consequently have many functions.

From the book The Guises of the Morrigan by David Rankine and Sorita D' Este (and I'm going to keep it under 200 words to I don't violate the copyright). :lol:

Within some of these texts the Morrigan is also connected with the Mother Goddess Anu or Danu. This is a conjunction that occurs a number of times, and is highly significant. In the Book of Leinster we find Anu and the Morrigan being equated in connection with a pair of hills (i.e. the land). “Badb and Macha and Anu, i.e. the Morrigan, from whom the Paps of Anu in Luachair are named, were the three daughters of Emmas the witch.”

[…]

If the Morrigan is also Danu, then this has major implications, for it then means that the Morrigan is the Mother of the Gods of this pantheon. We could then arguably call them the Tuatha De Morrigu as well as or instead of the Tuatha De Danann (Rankine & D’Este 2005:54-55).

It goes on to talk about how the Tuatha De Danann first appeared when they invaded Ireland as a flock of black birds which explicitly connects them to the Morrigan.

If you are interested in this subject I would highly recommend this book as it goes through many of her guises and doesn’t just focus on the war Goddess aspect.

[David19]

What's wrong with being a warrior goddess?, do all goddesses have to be 'mother goddesses', to me, that just sounds more patriarchical, because it's saying, women are always 'motherly' or are 'biologically programmed' to have kids, which isn't true, there are a lot of women who don't want kids, there are a lot of women who are cold hearted (for example, there were female Nazi's and female anti-Semite's, homophobes, etc).

While i don't worship Morrigon (but who know's what the future will bring), i think her warrior parts make her, her, it makes her strong, powerful, etc, and is, IMO, a good view to have with some wiccans and other 'pagans' going on about how goddesses and women are all 'motherly', 'fluffy' and 'loving'.

[Morr]

I read the sources, and I am very interested in Celtic History and Irish studies.

But I also go by my experiences and personal worship.

The Morrigan is one of my primary Patron Goddesses. To me she is a Warrior Goddess amongst other things. She is also a Mother to me and a friend. She is also a protectress. She is my teacher and guide as well. She is a fighter and she fuels my confidence and passion to fight for what I think is right. She also fuels my confidence and passion to fight my demons, to fight daily battles (small or big) and to survive. She also loves to relax with a cup of Vodka or Red wine and some good ol' Cinnamon Incense and just be silent.

She is a lot more, too.

You cannot base all your assumptions and knowlege through research and the written word -- You absolutely must make a judgement through personal experience with The Morrigan herself (or any other diety or spirit for that matter).

Just my personal opinion as one of the Lady's daughters.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

What's wrong with being a warrior goddess?, do all goddesses have to be 'mother goddesses', to me, that just sounds more patriarchical, because it's saying, women are always 'motherly' or are 'biologically programmed' to have kids, which isn't true, there are a lot of women who don't want kids, there are a lot of women who are cold hearted (for example, there were female Nazi's and female anti-Semite's, homophobes, etc).

While i don't worship Morrigon (but who know's what the future will bring), i think her warrior parts make her, her, it makes her strong, powerful, etc, and is, IMO, a good view to have with some wiccans and other 'pagans' going on about how goddesses and women are all 'motherly', 'fluffy' and 'loving'.

I agree, but I think the original posters comment was more about type-casting and not necessarily railing against the war goddess aspect of it. It was also against those who type-cast the followers of a particular goddess or god. Type-casting in general. :lol:

If you type-cast a particular deity as this or that or you negating their other qualities whether it be war goddess, mother goddess, love goddess, or god, etc... I agree with Morr that a personal relationship with the goddess or god of your choice is the best way to learn about their qualities and particular aspects.

In regards to mother goddesses...think about people's relationship with their own mother. A mother can be kind, loving, and "fluffy," but also needs to be firm and disclipining so that her children grow up to be the best that they can be. Does it serve children's best interest to let them run around willy-nilly and not eat and brush their teeth or sleep?? No, I don't think so. In my personal spiritual experience, a mother goddess is a combination of both: loving and firm, guiding us to be the best that we can be.

[MacMorrighan]

...how about you put out something that is right?

Actually, I am! But, personal circumstances being what they are, it will not see publication for quite some time.

I'm a bit confused with your statement however. Brigid is considered the "Mother Goddess" among the Irish pantheons, she gave birth to the Tuaithe Dé afterall. She is also much older (in the myth) than The Morrigan. Why would there be two "Earth Goddesses" in a pantheon which emphasises singular, specialised roles by the gods?

But, that'd just it, Tab. Our assumptions that he Celts ever had a "pantheon" is misguided-- well, that is, it was misplaced. Indeed, Celtic religion was a very localized one with localized tribal Gods depending upon wjere they lived. In fact, it revolved around the tribal War-God and the female Land-Deity or "Earth-Goddess"-- this is that pattern that appears in the insular narrative literature.

However, Brighid isn't the Mother-Goddess. In fact, tracing Hre back to Brigantia of the Brigantes tribe (after whom Britain is named) She is a Sovereign Tutelary-Goddess whose Queen-Priestess caused a civil way waged by her ex-husband over the title of "King".

And, to furtehr hammer it home, the Celts never had a pantheo of Gods that emphesized a singular specialized role-- this is most clearly exemplified in Lugh, IMHO. :cheers:

All my best,
Wade

[MacMorrighan]

What's wrong with being a warrior goddess?, do all goddesses have to be 'mother goddesses', to me, that just sounds more patriarchical, because it's saying, women are always 'motherly' or are 'biologically programmed' to have kids, which isn't true, there are a lot of women who don't want kids, there are a lot of women who are cold hearted (for example, there were female Nazi's and female anti-Semite's, homophobes, etc).

While i don't worship Morrigon (but who know's what the future will bring), i think her warrior parts make her, her, it makes her strong, powerful, etc, and is, IMO, a good view to have with some wiccans and other 'pagans' going on about how goddesses and women are all 'motherly', 'fluffy' and 'loving'.

Well, what's wrong with it is when (from my own experience) you get a bunch of Pagans speaking for the Goddess disposing the current scholarship on the matter (sometimes by claiming you're twisting it to fit your agenda, which is highly insulting), and then using that as a spring board to claim that She cannot love nor, in any way, express any emotional warmth towards Her Priest/esshood. Indeed, despite what I have, personally, experienced in that regard, I was told, in no uncertain terms, that any thought I might have to having felkt Her love 9and I do stand by that!) was a self-imposed dellusion from growing up in a Christian (rather than pagan) society-- the Goddess is to be FEARED and dreaded, according to them! That's what's wrong with it, my good friend. ;) And, it bugs me EV'RY time! And, strangely enough-- despite citing my references-- upon stating this, I was once told that I was making Her "a loving, protector, mommy goddess!" What the...??? :rant:

[MacMorrighan]

You cannot base all your assumptions and knowlege through research and the written word -- You absolutely must make a judgement through personal experience with The Morrigan herself (or any other diety or spirit for that matter).

(See my last responce.) :hahugh:

All my best,
Wade

[Rowan Darkmoon]

Well, what's wrong with it is when (from my own experience) you get a bunch of Pagans speaking for the Goddess disposing the current scholarship on the matter (sometimes by claiming you're twisting it to fit your agenda, which is highly insulting), and then using that as a spring board to claim that She cannot love nor, in any way, express any emotional warmth towards Her Priest/esshood. Indeed, despite what I have, personally, experienced in that regard, I was told, in no uncertain terms, that any thought I might have to having felkt Her love 9and I do stand by that!) was a self-imposed dellusion from growing up in a Christian (rather than pagan) society-- the Goddess is to be FEARED and dreaded, according to them! That's what's wrong with it, my good friend. ;) And, it bugs me EV'RY time! And, strangely enough-- despite citing my references-- upon stating this, I was once told that I was making Her "a loving, protector, mommy goddess!" What the...??? :rant:

Whooo...that was a little more angry then my explanation of your post, but... :) Ignore them because they don't know what they are talking about. Only those who work with a particular goddess/god can feel their love because they are interested in developing a personal relationship with them.

By the way, I thought that the fear of the Morrigan and the development of her as a dread goddess was in fact from Christian influences?? I'm not sure, I could be wrong..., but their explanation that you should fear her because you are suffering from the influences of a Christian society made me laugh. :lol:

On a personal note, the quote from my signature was what the Lady told me, "The raven-eyed goddess terrible and beautiful." And that's how she appeared to me: both terrible and wild and beautiful and loving. I think that a goddess is what you make of her and what she informs you, so if you have felt Her love then you know it is real. :hugz:

[Morr]

I agree with Rowan.

Madam Morrigan is indeed terrible and dreadful. This is her nature and she wont make it all light and pretty for those who fear opening up too her darkness and fire. Those who do -- See the love within her too.

Sure, she will show you her love by dragging you through the mud, kicking you down, and making you cry all the while enchanting a little bit of chaos into your life. But at the end of the road, you find her sitting on her throne with you at her feet -- And you find yourself smiling up at her and she smiling back down at you because you learned an important lesson that you could have not learned any other way.

And once she's seen you've proven yourself to her, she DOES love you in more than just a tough love way. She is gentle and kind, as long as you serve her with resepct.

I have experienced her in many ways, and I know that once I've opened up to her darkness and dread and let her into my life, soul and body with all of her might -- I found her beautiful, loving and wonderful.

Balanced between darkness and love. Death and passion.

[Tadrith]

It goes on to talk about how the Tuatha De Danann first appeared when they invaded Ireland as a flock of black birds which explicitly connects them to the Morrigan.

There is more supporting evidence that mentioned that the Tuatha de Dannan came by boat. This "flock of crows" is most likely some metaphor, perhaps illustrating the relation to the colour of the sails? They Tuatha came by boat, and burnt their ships once they arrived so that they would never return from whence they came. No transmutation into crows, but a much more rational and explainable reason. Some peopel really try too hard to make the past magical.

Indeed, Celtic religion was a very localized one with localized tribal Gods depending upon wjere they lived. In fact, it revolved around the tribal War-God and the female Land-Deity or "Earth-Goddess"-- this is that pattern that appears in the insular narrative literature.


Then I would bring up The Taìn Bo, and the works by Nennius (for instance). Local and isolated? Not quite. Disgustingly similar? Touché! The pattern that appears in insular narratives is that there is usually gods that, while applied to a specific role, also branch out into multiple other areas. Lugh, like was mentionned before, is considered the Sun god. But alas, he is also a craftsmen (and much more!). In such a case, The Morrigan is a war-goddess and a goddess of death, but she is also more [especially if seen as her three-fold personality]. Primarily though, she is a war-goddess.

And, to furtehr hammer it home, the Celts never had a pantheo of Gods that emphesized a singular specialized role-- this is most clearly exemplified in Lugh, IMHO

Actually, Lugh is the perfect example to use! You are seeing it in simple views. The ONLY reason they accepted him is because he could do everything! That in itself would be seen as singular, no one else can do it. They refused him on every other basis!

I believe Danu is the mother goddess of the pantheon, giving them the name Tuatha De Danann

As to what I have found, Danu is equivalent to Brigid. It is only that the latter name was, probably, applied at a later date.

Badb and Macha and Anu
The original three, from the books that I have read, or Badb, Macha, and Nemhain, not Anu.

Cheers,
Tad

By the way, the name is Tad, not Tab. I have no idea how you could make such a mistake. 'B' and 'D' are no where near each other.

[Tadrith]

I think I should mention that I have great reverence and respect for The Morrigan (I dont fear her, but I have a deep respect, and I know how much she can f*ck with me if she so decided;) And I think She knows that I would fight the entire way through).

I also see the Gods are possessing the same human characteristics; prone to having good days/bad days, likely have some prefered hobbies/activities and such. Its just that they have so much more... power to what they do. So when I say that The Morrigan is a War-Goddess, I say so because that is what she is ascribed to, but I know that she is much more than that.

Tad

[Seren_]

Ah...scholars unanimously agree, however, that She never actually engages in battle.

In human form, that is. She does engage in combat as DandelionDame points out, with CuChullain in the Tain.

Indeed, it appears to be amongst the Gods, if anything else, which not only doesn't make Her a "War-Goddess" but seems more like the Aspect of a Tutelary-Goddess rather than any associations with "war": the "Celtic" concept of war is not as we imagine it, but inter-tribal cattle raids!

In the Tain it's not a war per se, rather a cattle-raid. But there are other episodes such as in Cath Maige Tuired where she is involved more directly with battle, during war. When asked by Lug, for example, what powers she can bring to the battle, she says: 'Not hard to say,’ she said. ‘I have stood fast; I shall pursue what was watched; I will be able to kill; I will be able to destroy those who might be subdued.’ Clearly this shows that she does take part in battle, even if she isn't explicitly shown to hack, slash and have a jolly good time, you know?

I'd also point out that one of the episodes where she might be interpreted as acting in a 'Mother' goddess role (which I'd disagree with, personally),where she and the Dagda mate over the river Unius...is more to do with the Dagda ensuring her aid and benevolence for the Tuatha De Danaan during the coming battle against the Fomoire. The purpose is not to create offspring or be motherly, it's to get her onside for war.

I'm sorry, but given her many associations with battle, I can definitely see how the idea of her being associated with War and strife and such came about. Personally I see her as being primarily a Sovereignty goddess, although at the same time I see labels as being restrictive and often misleading. Scholars have generally interpreted her associations with battle as perhaps being symptomatic of the fact that the king is ruling unjustly. War (or strife) is an indication of unjust rule in Irish society and therefore her association with so many occasions of strife is evidence that there is imbalance in the leadership of the people. This is an obvious element in both the Tain and CMT at least. So the label isn't entirely inaccurate is it?

If she isn't a War goddess in some form (i.e. not primarily or solely), how do you reconcile her many associations with war and strife?

[Morgandria]

As much as I'd like to get into it, I've encountered Wade and his theory before, and I've no desire to ever repeat the experience. I think he's running out of places to put it forth, without people recognizing him.

-M.

[Ravens_Tears]

Finding this all a bit difficult to take without a grain of salt MacMorrighan. The Morrighan is most certainly a Phantom Goddess. A goddess of war, death, sexuality, rebirth. (Ravens are guardians of the soul.) The morrighan symbolizes all that is strong and resiliant in the anima and is a quite apt representation of a "mother".

[skilly-nilly]

As much as I'd like to get into it, I've encountered Wade and his theory before, and I've no desire to ever repeat the experience. I think he's running out of places to put it forth, without people recognizing him.

-M.

I second Morgandria's opinion. I read over the posts this morning and then had to get ready for work.
During my contempletive time ( aka showering) I was thinking about the inherent fallacy in basing an argument on "don't take those old texts seriously, take me seriously" and the silliness of the response "I may publish in a few years" as a reason to not express one's own opinions nor to cite sources.........

...............then it all made sense. It's a troll, flaming The Morrigan.

The Gods will take care of this one.

[_Banbha_]

Morrighan is the most complex Goddess of Irish myth. I think there is a lot of room for discussion here. I don't see the need to add insults. Even when I disagree with MacMorrigan, I'd like to hear more (and see some sources).

The complexity of the Irish gods comes not from the least that these were tribal and the concept of a pan-Celtic pantheon can only cover aspects. This is why Celtic divinities are multi-faceted: they varied in their descriptions from tribe to tribe. The whole picture is more of a interwoven web of overlapping functions. That doesn't mean is function of a particular god has relavence in every myth or tale.

Morrighans geneology has come up as a bone of contention. The earliest written evidence we have of the Mhorrighan has Badb, Macha and Anann as sisters.
But is doesn't stop there.

Morrigan is one of the most complex figures in Irish mythology, not the least due to her genealogy. In the earliest copies of the Lebor Gabála Érenn, there are listed three sisters, named Badb, Macha, and Anann.1 In the Book of Leinster version, Anann is identified with Morrigu, while in the Book of Fermoy version, Macha is identified with Morrigan.

Now, if "Morrigan" means "Mare Queen", the identification of Macha with Morrigu would be a logical identification, as Macha usually identified as one of the Celtic horse goddesses, along with Rhiannon and Epona; moreover, the horse goddess is also the goddess of sovereignty and of the land, and it is through marriage to her that the king derives his legitimacy.

We also learn that the three sisters Badb, Macha, and Morrigu are also sisters to the three goddesses of the land, Eriu, Fotla, and Banba.[2] However, in one text, Anann--here called Ana--is listed as the seventh daughter, identified as the one "of whom are called the Paps of Ana in Urluachair"--the two mountains south of Killarny called "The Breasts of Anu". In a yet a different version of the second redaction, Anann is again identified as Morrigan, and for her the mountains are named.

In the third redaction, her genealogy is given as "The Morrigu, daughter of Delbaeth, was the mother of the other sons of Delbaeth, Brian, Iucharba, and Iuchair: and it is from her addtional name "Danann" the Paps of Ana in Luachair are called, as well as the Tuatha De Danann." Now we have Morrigan identified with Danu, mother of the gods, and with Anann, the goddess of the Paps of Ana. This originates in the identification of Anann with Anu and Anu with Danu. Anu, according to Cormac's Glossary, was mother of the Irish gods; while Danu was originally the goddess of the Danube (Lat. Danuvius). Finally, in The Second Battle of Magh Turedh, she is identified with Badb, the first sister of the trio....
http://www.maryjones.us/jce/morrigan.html

Of course this doesn't include everyone else...Nemhain( Panic, and also venomous, from the Tain bo Cualnge) comes later as an association. As does Fea (Hateful). If anyone has any sources on Fea, I'd appreciate it.

The origins of the Morrígan seem to reach directly back to the megalithic cult of the Mothers. The Mothers (Matrones, Idises, Dísir, etc.) usually appeared as triple goddesses and their cult was expressed through both battle ecstasy and regenerative ecstasy. Later Celtic goddesses of sovereignty, such as the trio of Éire, Banba, and Fótla, also use magic in warfare (Ross).

Éire, a goddess connected to the land in a fashion reminiscent of the Mothers, could appear as a beautiful woman or as a crow, as could the Morrígan. The Dísir appeared in similar guises. In addition to being battle goddesses, they are significantly associated with fate as well as birth in many cases, along with appearing before a death or to escort the deceased. It is interesting to note that some sources present Éire and the Morrígan as half-sisters...
Danielle Ní Dhighe, 1996 http://www.imbas.org/articles/morrigan.html

If you read Ni Dhighe's full article you'll see she is not an adovcate of a singular theory by any means, as I am not. She believes The Morrighan is a Goddess of battle and strife, and more. It's nearly impossible in Irish myth to formulate a single theory that will please everyone in any case. I do also believe there was a lot more fierceness and blood to the Mother aspect in the pre-christian and deep past, which is closer to a woman's reality, that's just not expressed in culture today. I do not see Morrighan as 'mother goddess' in terms of Neo-Pagan ways with all it's neat and separate catagories for divinities (sweetness and light, in reference to how Mother Goddesses are stereo-typed, and even written off to a certain extent). Also, the imagery of neolithic divinity is often female and a carrion bird. (I agree with Rowan Moonstones comments: "I think the original posters comment was more about type-casting and not necessarily railing against the war goddess aspect of it. It was also against those who type-cast the followers of a particular goddess or god. Type-casting in general.")

Morrighans origins and the concept of battle and sacrifice, in hand with the seasonal cycles of regeneration, holds a deeper meaning and is very different than modern terms. It was still about land, but the land itself was sacred. As were the battles themselves were infused with magic. The Goddesses of the land in Ireland personify all of this. Morrighans role evolved and changed in various ways due to cultural influences over time. She is essentially a battle goddess, among other aspects, than war. I think the war goddess title might muddy the waters a bit. Or sound overly simplistic.

In some notes I have from reading Alexei Kondratiev, Morrigu is her indo-European name meaning 'Queen of the Demonic Apparitions.' The Indo-
European root *Mer-H* meaning 'to harm' and in some languages to mean 'demon, monster' He stated the 'Mori' was later confused or intentionally associated with the sea. Sorry, no link. It's just one of the more interesting translations I've heard.

He and some other Celtic scholars compare Her to the femine force of Shakti (who is also Indo-European, as Hindu: divine warrior energy). But, this does not include Her sovereignty, procreative, otherwordly, fate aspects that were perhaps pre-celtic (pre Indo-European ). Shakti is a femine creative 'power' or 'energy' in it's primary meanings. As I've said, I believe her complexity lies with more than one source.

Here are some of my own musings about Morrrighan. I almost didn't want to post because it's hard for me to contain Her meaning, both from what I read, hear and feel and just know....I'll take one image: The Morrighan and Daghda mate while she is straddling the river Unius (river's are the boundrys within and without the material world symbolically in Celtic Irish myth) and she is washing the clothes of the warriors she has choosen to die...it's all there: her sexuality, the procreative act/ritual on the cusp of worlds/territory; her sovereignty of the land, the blood on the clothes; death and rejuvination and most of all FATE. She is The Decider. The weaver and the manipulator, the receiver of sacrifice, the blood of warriors... She holds and strikes the balance. And for me, this is just the beginning.

[DandelionDame]

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According to Prof. Maire Herbert-- associate Prof. of early & Medieval irish studies-- this is merely a clerical redaction meant, for no other purposer, to make Cu appear heroic.

Where did Prof. Maire Herbert find the evidence to come to this conclusion? I've read a lot of scholarly sources pertaining to The Morrigan and pre-Christian Ireland, so don't assume I haven't. It just seems that you mention having a lot of sources, but you don't actually tend to say what they are. Hence my questions. I'm not being snarky, I'm asking sincerely.

[MacMorrighan]

Where did Prof. Maire Herbert find the evidence to come to this conclusion? I've read a lot of scholarly sources pertaining to The Morrigan and pre-Christian Ireland, so don't assume I haven't. It just seems that you mention having a lot of sources, but you don't actually tend to say what they are. Hence my questions. I'm not being snarky, I'm asking sincerely.

Oh, I deeply appreciate your desire for other sources cited (I'm that way too!). (You're a child after my own heart!) But, refer also to be note, below, for with personal reservations. One author that hasn't made it to that particular list, yet, is Dr. Daithi O hOgain. However, when seeking other source, don't be so quick-- as many Pagans seem to be-- to dismiss them as unconvincing or inconsequential, becuse they do not toe the reductionist line of so-called "accepted 'facts'!".

Well, it's literature-- must one really have physical evidence for the written word? That aside, I trust Herbert's conclusions as a highly reputible source-- its likely from her knwoeldge of the evolution of Celtic literature. However, if you'd really like to read it for yourself, I would recommend her article in The Concept of The Goddess. Indeed, I should also wonder upon what evidence Hutton bases a lot of hgis opinions that are frequently put forth as facts, because Pagans seem to uncritically buy into them. Oy vey... But, I digress... Here are several sources which, when taken together, successfully explode the early, and out-dated, war-goddess ideology when The Morrighan is concerned-- the best of which is the fact that I have observed within the academic comm. the use of the term "Tutelary-Goddess" in lieu of such Classicist ideaology when discussing Deities from non-Classical societies:

[N.B.: I made an "executive decision" not to explain the evidence within these texts that I find so valuable and dississive of the so-called "War-Goddess" ideolog, because of an article I am writing on the subject, as well as a forthcoming book. I hope that you will understand.]


The Quest for the Shaman by Miranda & Stephen Aldhouse-Green and The Celts, by John Collis
Angelique Gulermovich-Epstein's diss. War Goddess: The Morrígan and her Germano-Celtic Counterparts should be tempered with Rosalind Clark's The Great Queens: Irish Goddesses from the Morrígan to Cathleen ní Houlihan. Irish Literary Studies, 34.
Herbert, Máire [1996]. ‘Transmutations of an Irish Goddess’ in Sandra Billington and Miranda Green [ed.], The Concept of the Goddess and Lysaght, Patricia [1996]. ‘Aspects of the Earth-Goddess in the Traditions of the Banshee in Ireland’ in Sandra Billington and Miranda Green [ed.], The Concept of the Goddess.
Cunliffe, Barry [1997]. The Ancient Celts and Sjoestedt, Marie-Louise [tr. Myles Dillon, 2000]. Celtic Gods and Heroes.
Ross, Anne [1973]. ‘The Divine Hag of the Pagan Celts’ in Venetia Newall [ed.], The Witch Figure.


Take Care,
Wade MacMorrighan

[MacMorrighan]

Also, what one must understand, where most things "Celtic" are concerned, is that it's not a field so finite that one can "find" anything with certainty as many Pagans have been incorrectly lead to believe (I'd put my money on that misconception from reading WAY too many reductionists!!!). ;)

[MacMorrighan]

Ignore them because they don't know what they are talking about. Only those who work with a particular goddess/god can feel their love because they are interested in developing a personal relationship with them.

Well, that's easier said than done when, for instance, those claiming me to be a "Fluff Bunny" and reject my research-- because it ceases to conform to their clear Clasicist ideology-- go acorss the 'Net and actually mock me on-line, which creates an exer-widening circle of defamation (someone actually created a message board, once, to defame me, and it had more than 100 members before I had it closed down! I still can't believe that that had actually happened!!!).

Now, the love of the Goddess bit: those claiming that She cannot love, and that I am under a self-imposed dellusion to think so, was actually from the mouths of those that also "worship" Her, or Invoke Her, or whatever... *shrugs*

...but their explanation that you should fear her because you are suffering from the influences of a Christian society made me laugh. :lol:

Oh, I would have laughed my youy-knowwhat off, too, had they not deen so serious and bellicose about it, and at the very least quixotic!

...so if you have felt Her love then you know it is real. :hugz:

Thank you so much! And :hugz: right back atcha'!

[MacMorrighan]

Then I would bring up The Taìn Bo, and the works by Nennius (for instance). Local and isolated? Not quite. Disgustingly similar? Touché! The pattern that appears in insular narratives is that there is usually gods that, while applied to a specific role, also branch out into multiple other areas. Lugh, like was mentionned before, is considered the Sun god. But alas, he is also a craftsmen (and much more!). In such a case, The Morrigan is a war-goddess and a goddess of death, but she is also more [especially if seen as her three-fold personality]. Primarily though, she is a war-goddess.

I did not say, nor imply, that they were necessarily "isolated" localized deities, but they were, as scholars contend, the genius loci, or "he spirit of a place". So, yes, She is an Earth-Goddess, r land-Goddess, like all insular "Celtic" Goddess are. henmce, She is not "primarily" a War-Goddess-- more and more scholars are looking down on such a classification.

Actually, Lugh is the perfect example to use! You are seeing it in simple views. The ONLY reason they accepted him is because he could do everything! That in itself would be seen as singular, no one else can do it. They refused him on every other basis!

What's "simple"? I brought Him up because he defies classification, which is how The Morrighan should be similarly viewed by analog. Hence, He is a God of All-Arts, for example.

The original three, from the books that I have read, or Badb, Macha, and Nemhain, not Anu.

Actually, we note a great many discrepancies between these and othger instances. So, if we are to expect this version relation of them being the so-called "War-Goddess," we should find this trio again, and again, but we don't!

By the way, the name is Tad, not Tab. I have no idea how you could make such a mistake. 'B' and 'D' are no where near each other.

Yes, that was merely a typo; I didn't catch it until it was too late. So, you will just have to accept it as a typo. ;)

Take care, Tad,
Wade MacMorrighan

[MacMorrighan]

In the Tain it's not a war per se, rather a cattle-raid. But there are other episodes such as in Cath Maige Tuired where she is involved more directly with battle, during war. When asked by Lug, for example, what powers she can bring to the battle, she says: 'Not hard to say,’ she said. ‘I have stood fast; I shall pursue what was watched; I will be able to kill; I will be able to destroy those who might be subdued.’ Clearly this shows that she does take part in battle, even if she isn't explicitly shown to hack, slash and have a jolly good time, you know?

Me thinks you may be acepting this literature on far too literally a basis. ;) The academic consensus is that She, in no way, engages in "battle". But, be that as it may, I am still firm in the fact that this is not evidence for her as a War-oddess, but, if anything, as a Tutelary-Goddess and likely shows Her affinity towards the guardianship of the Land! It is also wporth bearing in mind that multiple-- often varying-- translations exist and are frequently cited or printed. :) So, this evidence is unconvincing to me, personally.

I'd also point out that one of the episodes where she might be interpreted as acting in a 'Mother' goddess role (which I'd disagree with, personally),where she and the Dagda mate over the river Unius...is more to do with the Dagda ensuring her aid and benevolence for the Tuatha De Danaan during the coming battle against the Fomoire. The purpose is not to create offspring or be motherly, it's to get her onside for war.

Actually, no scholar that I know of advocates that this is an instance which associates her with war; rather, they look to it as evidence for her fecundity Aspect, as well as that of Sovereignty-Goddess.

I'm sorry, but given her many associations with battle, I can definitely see how the idea of her being associated with War and strife and such came about.

But, that does not a war-goddess make. ;)

Scholars have generally interpreted her associations with battle as perhaps being symptomatic of the fact that the king is ruling unjustly. War (or strife) is an indication of unjust rule in Irish society and therefore her association with so many occasions of strife is evidence that there is imbalance in the leadership of the people. This is an obvious element in both the Tain and CMT at least.

Now, I personally find that fascinating, as I have read no academic literature regarding such a thesis! Could you cite some sources, please?

If she isn't a War goddess in some form (i.e. not primarily or solely), how do you reconcile her many associations with war and strife?

Well, generally, it's the pure result of early clerical redactors, and it may also be another facet (as i have staed numerous times) of Her Tutelary-Goddess Aspect (with no connotation of a Gpddess to be feared as a violent threat, or some such nonsense ;) ).

Take care,
Wade MacMorrighan

[Seren_]

Me thinks you may be acepting this literature on far too literally a basis. ;) The academic consensus is that She, in no way, engages in "battle". But, be that as it may, I am still firm in the fact that this is not evidence for her as a War-oddess, but, if anything, as a Tutelary-Goddess and likely shows Her affinity towards the guardianship of the Land! It is also wporth bearing in mind that multiple-- often varying-- translations exist and are frequently cited or printed. :) So, this evidence is unconvincing to me, personally.

I'm simply trying to point out that making blanket statements such as "she never engages in battle" can be as misleading as the labels like "War Goddess". She does fight, if not in battle, but still she does. When comparing to other goddesses who can also be said to be tutelary deities, who are vastly different to the Morrigan, this is surely something significant to consider.

I'm not arguing that the Morrigan is not a tutelary or sovereignty deity. I think she is. But more to the point, I'm arguing that any such label is as equally misleading or valid as the next one. It's just that any particular label will inevitably reduce such a deity to a one dimensional character, rather than a complex deity who has existed and been written about for a few thousand years, at least.

I just think that any god or goddess is much more than the sum of all the academic references one can cite or the labels that one can apply (though I realise it might not look that way sometimes :) ). Especially when the academic field is rarely unanimous on anything, particularly in the Celtic field ;)

Now, I personally find that fascinating, as I have read no academic literature regarding such a thesis! Could you cite some sources, please?

Byrne, Francis John: Irish Kings and High-kings (B T Batsford, 1973).
Carey, John: “Myth and Mythography in Cath Maige Tuired” in Studia Celtica, Vol XXIV/XXV (Cardiff, 1990).
Gray, Elizabeth A: “Cath Maige Tuired: Myth and Structure (1 - 24)” in Éigse XVIII (National University of Ireland, 1982).
Gray, Elizabeth A: “Cath Maige Tuired: Myth and Structure (24 -120)” in Éigse XVIII (National University of Ireland, 1982).
Gray, Elizabeth A: “Cath Maige Tuired: Myth and Structure (84 - 93)” in Éigse XIX (National University of Ireland, 1983).
Gray, Elizabeth A: “Cath Maige Tuired: Myth and Structure (120 - 167)” in Éigse XIX (National University of Ireland, 1983).
Jaski, Bart: Early Irish kingship and succession (Four Courts Press, 2000).
Kelly, Fergus: A Guide to Early Irish Law (Dublin, 1995).

Gray's commentary on her translation of Cath Maige Tuired will be of primary use to you in this case, but the other books are useful on discussing how aspects of kingship work. But to sum it all up:


One could wonder why it is so important for the Dagda to ensure the help of one woman in a war involving many. The Dagda, after all, is skilled in the magical arts himself – why would he need to rely on the Morrigan’s? Gray suggests that it is because the Morrigan’s vast and dangerous powers pose a threat to the Tuatha Dé Danann camp if she is not brought on side. As she uses her power against the Fomoire, so could she use it against the Tuatha Dé Danann themselves, and Gray shows the Dagda’s actions as a shrewd piece of thinking on his part. In having sex with the Morrigan, the union could be seen as a form of marriage, if only temporary, but it could be said that the union obliges her loyalty and help to the Dagda and his kin, if only for a short period of time (Gray, 1983, 239). Under Irish law, there were many different kinds of marriage, but all were based upon the idea of a sexual union taking place. Not all marriages were permanent, and it was also possible for a man to be polygamous – have many wives. But usually, upon more formal types of marriage, the woman would be handed over from her own kin to her husband’s, and her loyalties would then lie with him (Kelly, 1995, 70).

But this argument does not sit entirely in place, theoretically speaking. The Morrigan’s help consists of advice given to the Dagda of events that will happen, and it is not usual in the Dagda’s repertoire to display powers of prophecy, which was the Morrigan’s particular forte (Gray, 1982, 45). As a goddess of slaughter, often associated with war (MacCana, 1970, 67), it is possibly the Dagda’s intent to secure her help in a ritual rendezvous in a more symbolic rather than active sense. Here the Dagda is perhaps more concerned with ensuring “divine benevolence” than absolute, binding loyalty. The Morrigan, after all, is not a deity that ever appears to tie herself down for long, at least.

I think that basically sums up Gray's idea.

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Yeah, sure, the Morrigan have noooooooooooooooooo association with death and war. Symbolic animals that eat the dead? Oh, that's just a metaphor!
There is a disturbing trend in Wicca to make the bitch-goddesses much more happy and loving than I think they are. Notable cases are Kali, te Morrigan, Hecate, and Sekhmet. If there Goddesses do not have associations with death, war, and bloodshed, then WHY, I ask of you, are the referred to as dark goddesses?
If my late High Priestess were here, I know full well she'd do some bad, BAD things to you.

[Morgandria]

Post moved to Just Silly.

[MacMorrighan]

I'm simply trying to point out that making blanket statements such as "she never engages in battle" can be as misleading as the labels like "War Goddess". She does fight, if not in battle, but still she does. When comparing to other goddesses who can also be said to be tutelary deities, who are vastly different to the Morrigan, this is surely something significant to consider.

I personally don't believe so. Scholars have spoken-- She don't engage in battle! ;) However, I would then ask you how you define a Tutelary-Deity as being "vastly different" than The Morrighan?

It's just that any particular label will inevitably reduce such a deity to a one dimensional character, rather than a complex deity who has existed and been written about for a few thousand years, at least.

Personally, I do not agree, because it is not a Classicist specialization, but is an all-encompoassing term, as I note how scholars are using it today.

I just think that any god or goddess is much more than the sum of all the academic references one can cite or the labels that one can apply (though I realise it might not look that way sometimes :) ). Especially when the academic field is rarely unanimous on anything, particularly in the Celtic field ;)

I just find it far more valuab;e when a lot of Pagans-- when left to their own devices-- ensue in making Her what they want Her to be, due to the fave-value of the literature, and what they think that provides, rather than the facts of the matter. :)

Scholars have generally interpreted her associations with battle as perhaps being symptomatic of the fact that the king is ruling unjustly. War (or strife) is an indication of unjust rule in Irish society and therefore her association with so many occasions of strife is evidence that there is imbalance in the leadership of the people. This is an obvious element in both the Tain and CMT at least.

This would then, be another indication of Her primary Sovereignty-Goddess status, IMO.


Byrne, Francis John: Irish Kings and High-kings (B T Batsford, 1973).
Carey, John: “Myth and Mythography in Cath Maige Tuired” in Studia Celtica, Vol XXIV/XXV (Cardiff, 1990).
Gray, Elizabeth A: “Cath Maige Tuired: Myth and Structure (1 - 24)” in Éigse XVIII (National University of Ireland, 1982).
Gray, Elizabeth A: “Cath Maige Tuired: Myth and Structure (24 -120)” in Éigse XVIII (National University of Ireland, 1982).
Gray, Elizabeth A: “Cath Maige Tuired: Myth and Structure (84 - 93)” in Éigse XIX (National University of Ireland, 1983).
Gray, Elizabeth A: “Cath Maige Tuired: Myth and Structure (120 - 167)” in Éigse XIX (National University of Ireland, 1983).
Jaski, Bart: Early Irish kingship and succession (Four Courts Press, 2000).
Kelly, Fergus: A Guide to Early Irish Law (Dublin, 1995).

I have to wonder how you were able to acqure many of these texts from journals unless they were directly coipied from archives held at a majour University. In the states, finding them in any way (especially in Iowa) would prove nearly impossible! I found it hard enough just acquiring a copy of the fiorst issue of Revue Celtique! :awilly: (Yes, Iowa doesn't have any majour Universities at which such journals might be achived...I've checked! Darn it!)

Gray's commentary on her translation of Cath Maige Tuired will be of primary use to you in this case, but the other books are useful on discussing how aspects of kingship work. But to sum it all up:

The Dagda: His role in myth, history and pseudo-history

One could wonder why it is so important for the Dagda to ensure the help of one woman in a war involving many. The Dagda, after all, is skilled in the magical arts himself – why would he need to rely on the Morrigan’s? Gray suggests that it is because the Morrigan’s vast and dangerous powers pose a threat to the Tuatha Dé Danann camp if she is not brought on side. As she uses her power against the Fomoire, so could she use it against the Tuatha Dé Danann themselves, and Gray shows the Dagda’s actions as a shrewd piece of thinking on his part. In having sex with the Morrigan, the union could be seen as a form of marriage, if only temporary, but it could be said that the union obliges her loyalty and help to the Dagda and his kin, if only for a short period of time (Gray, 1983, 239). Under Irish law, there were many different kinds of marriage, but all were based upon the idea of a sexual union taking place. Not all marriages were permanent, and it was also possible for a man to be polygamous – have many wives. But usually, upon more formal types of marriage, the woman would be handed over from her own kin to her husband’s, and her loyalties would then lie with him (Kelly, 1995, 70).

But this argument does not sit entirely in place, theoretically speaking. The Morrigan’s help consists of advice given to the Dagda of events that will happen, and it is not usual in the Dagda’s repertoire to display powers of prophecy, which was the Morrigan’s particular forte (Gray, 1982, 45). As a goddess of slaughter, often associated with war (MacCana, 1970, 67), it is possibly the Dagda’s intent to secure her help in a ritual rendezvous in a more symbolic rather than active sense. Here the Dagda is perhaps more concerned with ensuring “divine benevolence” than absolute, binding loyalty. The Morrigan, after all, is not a deity that ever appears to tie herself down for long, at least.

I think that basically sums up Gray's idea.

Thank you! However, I disagree with Gray's initial interpretation of the union of the Goddess with The Daghdha: it almost certainly is best interprated as evidence of Fecundity between She and The Daghdha.

All my best,
Wade MacMorrighan

[MacMorrighan]

Yeah, sure, the Morrigan have noooooooooooooooooo association with death and war. Symbolic animals that eat the dead? Oh, that's just a metaphor!
There is a disturbing trend in Wicca to make the bitch-goddesses much more happy and loving than I think they are. Notable cases are Kali, te Morrigan, Hecate, and Sekhmet. If there Goddesses do not have associations with death, war, and bloodshed, then WHY, I ask of you, are the referred to as dark goddesses?

First of all, I never said that I was "Wiccan"-- if fact, I'm not! I consider myself to be a blend of Celtic Reconstructionism and modern Witchcraft from the Western Ceremonial tradition.

The Kali Ma is also, based upon research and the practicing local Hindus in my area (we have a state-wide temple and Hindu cultural center I once atended to interview them re: Kali); stating that She is a "Killer-Goddes" or overtly "dangerous" to people isreally over-stepping the bounds of all reasonable evidence. This is likely a Western faux pas; most Pagans find it hard to believe that practicing Hindus deeply, deeply, love Her! Yet, at the same time, they are quick to tear to shreads any modern Pgans that claim the same thing! Why? [That's a rhetorical question.]

Now, as for The Morrighan: putting her in a propper context or perspective is, in no way, "happy and loving than [you] think they are," my friend! This is not "disturbing"-- however, what I do find disturbing is when Pagans begin to spout off that Goddess X cannot love (as though they speak for everyone_, regardless of the experience to the contrary. So, if one doesn't like this-- tough! Take it up with the leading academics in the field! ;)

And, speaking of Sekhmet, She is not as "Terrifying" as people like to impose that She is: Her Priests were the healers; Her Temples were hospitals; they invoked Her to set bones. While She could cause disease, She could also be called to destroy disease! Thus, She is a potent Healer-Goddess; Her Priests were the primary healers of the day!

Most modern Pagans simply do not authentically understand what a "Dark-Goddess" is! For information on this, I refer one to The Witches' Goddess, by Janet & Stewart farrar, which many such individuals have probably never read. They REALY put such Deities in balance! Thus, the uneducated modern Pagan view that Dark-Goddesses ought to be equated with "teror" or "evil" almost entirely hinges upon early Christianity which was, as we know, influenced by Zoroastrianism; he created a religion of binary opposition, between Deities of "light" who were opposed to the other Deities, which were otherwise considered "evil". This has no place in modern Paganism!

If my late High Priestess were here, I know full well she'd do some bad, BAD things to you.

Now, that was a very inappropriate thing to say. Come on, now! Hey, if you don't like what I've said, I really don't care, and stand by what I've said and the scholars whom I cite! I wonder if your late HPs would disagree with these scholars, too? And why you-- and pressumibly she-- would even CONSIDER that I am wghite-washing Them, or making them (as you oddly phrase it) "happy and loving"? But, concerning Dark-Goddesses, if your former HPs' good sense is no better than this, well...I would seriously call her into question as any sort of reliable, let alone Traditional, source for knowledge, I'm afraid.

Take Care,
Wade MacMorrighan

[mol]

* quote removed*

MOL MODE

Hi, Morgandria. Can you tell me why you posted that link?

[Morgandria]

I thought it was relevant to the conversation at hand. If not, I apologize, and will remove it.

[mol]

I thought it was relevant to the conversation at hand. If not, I apologize, and will remove it.
Well, I can't really say if it is relevant or not, but it kind of seems like a *smack*....or maybe a mock? I am not accusing...just saying telling you what I see from the outside in because I am not involved in the conversation. I am busy upgrading the site software.

Just letting you know.

[Morgandria]

Understood.

[Seren_]

I personally don't believe so. Scholars have spoken-- She don't engage in battle! ;) However, I would then ask you how you define a Tutelary-Deity as being "vastly different" than The Morrighan?

Please reread what I posted - I'm not saying she's not a tutelary deity, I'm saying that the group of goddesses that are lumped under the term 'tutelary deity' can all be seen to have vastly different personalities and act in very different ways. Looking at the sovereignty goddesses found in the historical cycle you can see similarities with the Morrigan, but also fearsome differences. With more developed mythological characters like Medb or Macha, you can again see similarities, but also vast differences in their behaviour and actions.

To reduce them to a simple label detracts from the differences that make up their natures. As a hard polytheist, naturally I'd argue against this - to me the gods aren't labels. As a scholar, I can see the convenience in such labels, but only in the general terms that they're used for the purposes of discussion. Since we're discussing the subject on a pagan board, naturally I'm approaching the subject with a religious bias.

This would then, be another indication of Her primary Sovereignty-Goddess status, IMO.

I agree 100%. Where we differ, it seems, is how much importance we assign such elements of personality in viewing the nature of the deity as a whole.

I have to wonder how you were able to acqure many of these texts from journals unless they were directly coipied from archives held at a majour University. In the states, finding them in any way (especially in Iowa) would prove nearly impossible! I found it hard enough just acquiring a copy of the fiorst issue of Revue Celtique! :awilly: (Yes, Iowa doesn't have any majour Universities at which such journals might be achived...I've checked! Darn it!)

I have an MA in Archaeology and Celtic Civilisation and the sources I provided come from the dissertation I wrote as part of that. Where I live now the journals are difficult to get access to, but inter library loans through local universities can help.

Thank you! However, I disagree with Gray's initial interpretation of the union of the Goddess with The Daghdha: it almost certainly is best interprated as evidence of Fecundity between She and The Daghdha.

All my best,
Wade MacMorrighan[/SIZE][/FONT]

There we'll have to agree to disagree ;)

[Tadrith]

Magh Rath <--- Evidence of Morrìgu's relation to war.

I actually had a bit of an epiphany though. I mean, there's Fea, Badb, Nemain, Macha, and Morrigu. Morrigu/Morrighan's name means Great Queen. She is also mentionned as a triple goddess. What if she is the "Queen" of hate, venom, fury, and battle? It would make her into a 'quadrupal' goddess though. Perhaps one of the other goddesses, Fea, Badba, Nemain, or Macha were added in later, for the convenience of a certain culture?

I mostly used Charles Squire's work; despite his works being a bit on the old side and the influence towards comparison with the greeks, he is not bound by the "new-age revisionists" theories. He does not try to force dieties into beings that they are not, or add a new perception to fit in with the current social paradigm.

Cheers,
Tad