Angeloloy

[CleftOfLight]

Any other Angelologistin here?

[CleftOfLight]

I seem to be messing up my headings,,grrr...lol

[ViolinGoddess]

Well, I've studied Angelology (christian angelology, that is), but I'm not sure if that's what you're talking about because I haven't run into that particular word before.

Violin Goddess

[Agaliha]

When I was 15-ish I was really into angels. Read tons of books and sites about them. Talked to them. Believed in the even. I have a St. Michael metal necklace (the archangel). Yup. This doesn't really apply anymore, it seemed be a phase. But I still know a lot about them.
So yeah, I guess I was into Angelology (the study of angels).
There are some sites online about angels and such....

[Infinite Grey]

I know me angelology

[David19]

I'd like to learn a bit more about real angels (even though i'm not Christian) as they seem kind of interesting, and from what i've read, they're not the 'fluffy' 'New Age' angels that everyone talks about (and from experiences i've read, people say angels can mess you up a lot worse than the Goetic demons.

[Infinite Grey]

I'd like to learn a bit more about real angels (even though i'm not Christian) as they seem kind of interesting, and from what i've read, they're not the 'fluffy' 'New Age' angels that everyone talks about (and from experiences i've read, people say angels can mess you up a lot worse than the Goetic demons.

To work with Angels require reverence and humility, working with demons requires (earned) arrogance and self confidence... Angels will rough you up, and even kill you... where as demons generally will just mess with you. 8OJust look at all the Christian, Islamic and Jewish mythology surrounding Angels. Generally when YHWH wanted someone dead or punished, he would send an Angel... no-nonsense, all business creatures Angels be :viking:

[David19]

To work with Angels require reverence and humility, working with demons requires (earned) arrogance and self confidence... Angels will rough you up, and even kill you... where as demons generally will just mess with you. 8OJust look at all the Christian, Islamic and Jewish mythology surrounding Angels. Generally when YHWH wanted someone dead or punished, he would send an Angel... no-nonsense, all business creatures Angels be :viking:

Do you know of any good non-'New Age' books on angels?.

[ViolinGoddess]

I'd like to learn a bit more about real angels (even though i'm not Christian) as they seem kind of interesting, and from what i've read, they're not the 'fluffy' 'New Age' angels that everyone talks about (and from experiences i've read, people say angels can mess you up a lot worse than the Goetic demons.

You're right, they are not the "fluffy bunnies" that the new age movement says they are. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say "they would mess you up a lot worse than the Goetic demons". The only reason an angel would have to fight is to defeat a demon or similar entity. So angels wouldn't actually mess "YOU" up. However, they can be very serious and not all "lovey-dovey" all the time. I remember one time breaking a promise to God and I was visited by an angel in my dreams that night. The angel was VERY serious. Like a parent that knows you've done something wrong and is very dissapointed in you. THe angel was very intimidating. But I seriously don't think you are in danger with angels. Trust me, the Goetic demons are plenty dangerous enough.

Violin Goddess

PS, it depends on what kind of angels you want to learn about. ANgels are found in many cultures. But the three cultures that I know of that talk about them the most is CHristianity, Judaism, and Islam. But you can find angels in cultures like Chinese and Norse. But each culture has different rules, archangels and stories. SO you might want to spesify which you would like to learn about.

[ViolinGoddess]

To work with Angels require reverence and humility, working with demons requires (earned) arrogance and self confidence... Angels will rough you up, and even kill you... where as demons generally will just mess with you. 8OJust look at all the Christian, Islamic and Jewish mythology surrounding Angels. Generally when YHWH wanted someone dead or punished, he would send an Angel... no-nonsense, all business creatures Angels be :viking:

Actually, if you've studied christian angels SINCE the Bible was put together, you will find that angels are sent to inspire people, give messeges, and protect people. I don't think there has been a case of the angel of death being used in the last 2200 years. ANd I've never heard of an angel messing people up since Jacob wrestled with the angel. ANd that was an ancient story!

Violin Goddess

[ViolinGoddess]

Do you know of any good non-'New Age' books on angels?.

--"Angels: An endagered species" by Malcom Godwin *****
-->but I'm not sure if this book is still in print.

--"A Dictionary of Angels: including the fallen ones" by Gustav Davidson*****

--"Angels:Messegers of the Gods" by Peter Lamborn Wilson****
-->Lots of pictures and a good overveiw of angels in different cultures

--"Encyclopedia of Angels" by Rosemary Ellen Guiley****
-->A great encyclopedia of different angels and fallen angels. Very in-depth.

Also, there is a great web site you HAVE to visit if you're intrested in angelology. You can f ind ALL SORTS of info on angels here. I love it! Here's the link.

http://www.sarahsarchangels.com/
-->It looks kind of confusing since there is a lot of info on this page. But go down to the "Enter the Angelic Realm" button and click on that, you can enter the main page through that.

Violin Goddess

[Agaliha]

I was going to mention Sarah's Archangels too :lol:

[Infinite Grey]

Actually, if you've studied christian angels SINCE the Bible was put together, you will find that angels are sent to inspire people, give messeges, and protect people. I don't think there has been a case of the angel of death being used in the last 2200 years. ANd I've never heard of an angel messing people up since Jacob wrestled with the angel. ANd that was an ancient story!

Violin Goddess

What about Muhammad being order to "recite" by Gabriel and then strangled each time he couldn't? Honestly, Angels aren't my area... but there are a few stories of people displeasing angels and getting their asses handed to them... just trying to remember which ones :lol: Cassiel is suppose to be involved with the deaths of kings... Leliel the "angel of the night" is hardly a positive role model...Dumah the "thousand-eyed angel of death, armed with a fiery rod or flaming sword." (also a prince of hell)... Samael "Venom of God," and is said to hang with Satan on occasions...

Anyway, if you study Demonology AND Angelology you'll see that some angels seem to have alter-egos, and moonlight as Demons. The differences between demons and angels can become very confusing sometimes... though I won't go into that :hehehehe:

[Agaliha]

Here's a link to comparisons of angels in all faiths. Most all faiths have them.

From Beliefnet--
"Explore how angels differ (http://www.beliefnet.com/frameset.asp?pageLoc=/story/104/story_10424_1.html&boardID=38807) in our multifaith guide."
Explains then in: Buddhism, Catholicism, Easter Orthodox, Hinduism, Islam, Judaism, Mormonism and Protestant Christianity

Where did you get the info about Gabirel strangling Muhammad...cause I've never heard of that.

I know he (Jibril) dictated the Qu'ran to him though. Was that the reciting you were talking about...?

From a Islam info site:

Gabriel (Jibril) is one of God’s Archangels, a special Angel from amongst all of God’s Angels. Angels – like Jinn (http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/iblis.html) – occupy a separate realm of creation; they are created by God from light. Their purpose is to act as messengers from God to the human world, and to uphold God’s majestic throne by singing his praises in Heaven. Angels do not possess free-will, a difference which marks them from humans [1] (http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/ref.html#2). Gabriel is the “trusted guide for the prophets” in all three realms: that of the Jinn, Heaven, and Man [2] (http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/ref.html#2).
Gabriel is thought of as “the divine intercom” because he is the Angel who relayed The Qur’an to Muhammad (http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/muhammad.html) from God [3] (http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/ref.html#2). Gabriel first appeared to Muhammad when the Prophet was a child. In one account, the Angel appeared to Muhammad at night and removed his heart in order to cleanse its clot of sin so that Muhammad would be pure and able to receive God’s revelation – The Qur’an - later in life [4] (http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/ref.html#2). When the Prophet was 40 and meditating at Mt. Hira, Gabriel returned to him in a blaze of light. There, Gabriel revealed to Muhammad the nature of the Prophet’s divine purpose, and began inspiring him with the revelations of the Qur’an. For the extent of Muhammad’s life Gabriel communicated God’s wishes and words while acting as a guide for Muhammad [5] (http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/ref.html#2); Gabriel performed this function for all of God's Prophets.
http://web.uvic.ca/~rpn/files/gabriel.html


The only hit of physical force is this:

The angel that Muhamamd was supposed to have met in the cave while meditating and who brought down the Qur'an for recitation. In the first encounter, Aisha related that when Muhammad did not recite, Gabriel caught him (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not bear it any more, and this was repeated three times. Gabriel left Muhammad terribly shaken. Muhammad feared that something might have happened to him, returned and asked Khadija to cover him until his fear was gone. Muhammad thought that the spirit was a jinn. (Sahih Bukhari 1.3) He even contemplated commiting suicide by throwing himself down a mountain.http://answering-islam.org/Index/G/gabriel.html

There is no hint that that was a continual thing...like strangling him every time each time he couldn't do something.

I don't know. Just never heard of it :lol:
I'm curious now, Gabriel (the name at least) is my favorite.

[Philosophia]

Some links to start:
http://www.steliart.com/angelology.html
http://www.theology.edu/theology/angel.htm
http://www.bible.org/page.asp?page_id=712
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angels
http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=1521&letter=A&search=angelology
http://www.letusreason.org/Doct20.htm
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01476d.htm
http://www.gotquestions.org/Angelology.html
http://www.svchapel.org/resources/Lessons/read_lessons.asp?id=2
http://www.angelology.net/

[Infinite Grey]

Where did you get the info about Gabirel strangling Muhammad...cause I've never heard of that.

I know he (Jibril) dictated the Qu'ran to him though. Was that the reciting you were talking about...?

The only hit of physical force is this:
The angel that Muhamamd was supposed to have met in the cave while meditating and who brought down the Qur'an for recitation. In the first encounter, Aisha related that when Muhammad did not recite, Gabriel caught him (forcefully) and pressed him so hard that he could not bear it any more, and this was repeated three times. Gabriel left Muhammad terribly shaken. Muhammad feared that something might have happened to him, returned and asked Khadija to cover him until his fear was gone. Muhammad thought that the spirit was a jinn. (Sahih Bukhari 1.3) He even contemplated commiting suicide by throwing himself down a mountain.http://answering-islam.org/Index/G/gabriel.html



There is no hint that that was a continual thing...like strangling him every time each time he couldn't do something.

I don't know. Just never heard of it :lol:
I'm curious now, Gabriel (the name at least) is my favorite.

In some accounts of the revelation of the Qur'an, Gabriel is described as strangling him... three times. You probably won't find that version on the internet as it isn't as "user friendly", but I found in an old book while in high school. Gabriel basically kicked Muhammad’s ass every time he couldn't recite, but it's really up to you if you want to hunt down that version :lol: (hint, it's very old)

[ViolinGoddess]

What about Muhammad being order to "recite" by Gabriel and then strangled each time he couldn't? Honestly, Angels aren't my area... but there are a few stories of people displeasing angels and getting their asses handed to them... just trying to remember which ones :lol: Cassiel is suppose to be involved with the deaths of kings... Leliel the "angel of the night" is hardly a positive role model...Dumah the "thousand-eyed angel of death, armed with a fiery rod or flaming sword." (also a prince of hell)... Samael "Venom of God," and is said to hang with Satan on occasions...

Anyway, if you study Demonology AND Angelology you'll see that some angels seem to have alter-egos, and moonlight as Demons. The differences between demons and angels can become very confusing sometimes... though I won't go into that :hehehehe:

Okay, let me be a little more clear. IN CHRISTIANITY, angels play the roles of messengers, protecters, and guides. I don't know about Islam or Judaic angels as well.

But as far as angels moonlighting as demons I think is simply confusion and doesn't reflect reality. My main reason for feeling this way is that I work very closely with angels (christian angels) and I don't know a single one that would moonlight as a demon. There is a very distinct difference.

Violin Goddess

[Infinite Grey]

Okay, let me be a little more clear. IN CHRISTIANITY, angels play the roles of messengers, protecters, and guides. I don't know about Islam or Judaic angels as well.

Same god. :whatgives And the vast majority of Christian angels are Judaic and Islamic too.


But as far as angels moonlighting as demons I think is simply confusion and doesn't reflect reality. My main reason for feeling this way is that I work very closely with angels (christian angels) and I don't know a single one that would moonlight as a demon. There is a very distinct difference.


There is a distinct difference between angels and demons yes, but they are known to shift "alignments" in order to perform a particularly duty or function. Admittedly it's more common for a demon to take the role of an angel rather than the other way around, but within Christian mysticism there are instances of Angel taking on a demon's clothing (so to speak).

I guess it's all in how you "deal" with angels, much the same way people "deal" with each other especially other family members. It's easy to remain blind to the darker side of things if you're content with nicer side.

[David19]

Same god. :whatgives And the vast majority of Christian angels are Judaic and Islamic too.



There is a distinct difference between angels and demons yes, but they are known to shift "alignments" in order to perform a particularly duty or function. Admittedly it's more common for a demon to take the role of an angel rather than the other way around, but within Christian mysticism there are instances of Angel taking on a demon's clothing (so to speak).

Do you think you could expand on the part about demons taking on an angels 'clothing' or recommend any books on it, 'cause it's something i'm interesting in learning about.

[Infinite Grey]

Do you think you could expand on the part about demons taking on an angels 'clothing' or recommend any books on it, 'cause it's something i'm interesting in learning about.

This is a bit of a spot, I could recommend books, but I think it would benefit you more to give you advise towards finding the information yourself. Firstly, learn about Qabalah, you don't have believe it, just understand it. Same deal with hermeticism, learn it. THEN look for texts before the 20th century relating to demons and Angels, these will still be biased towards the author's personal agenda, but they'll be closer to the actual truth, to which you can work out for your self, than the works of the 20th and 21st century authors.


Any demonologist worth their salt will tell you the same, the knowledge is only useful if you find it for your self.

[ViolinGoddess]

There is a distinct difference between angels and demons yes, but they are known to shift "alignments" in order to perform a particularly duty or function. Admittedly it's more common for a demon to take the role of an angel rather than the other way around, but within Christian mysticism there are instances of Angel taking on a demon's clothing (so to speak).


Where did you learn this? I have never heard of such a thing.

Violin Goddess

[Infinite Grey]

Where did you learn this? I have never heard of such a thing.

Violin Goddess

The more appropriate question would be where did you learn about Angels and Demons?

[David19]

This is a bit of a spot, I could recommend books, but I think it would benefit you more to give you advise towards finding the information yourself. Firstly, learn about Qabalah, you don't have believe it, just understand it. Same deal with hermeticism, learn it. THEN look for texts before the 20th century relating to demons and Angels, these will still be biased towards the author's personal agenda, but they'll be closer to the actual truth, to which you can work out for your self, than the works of the 20th and 21st century authors.


Any demonologist worth their salt will tell you the same, the knowledge is only useful if you find it for your self.



Thanks for that advice, do you know if The Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune is a good book (i just found it in my local library), and i've got some books (pdfs) of Hermicism (can't remember the titles, but i thought right now, though).

And, when you say works before the 20th century, do you mean books like the Goetia (or other grimoires), as i've heard there are several versions of the Goetia out there (like doesn't Crowley's one see them as just 'reprentations' of the brain (which i don't believe, i think demons, angels, gods, etc exist independently of us).

Thanks again for the advice :).

[Infinite Grey]

Thanks for that advice, do you know if The Mystical Qabalah by Dion Fortune is a good book (i just found it in my local library), and i've got some books (pdfs) of Hermicism (can't remember the titles, but i thought right now, though).

Bethra recommended to me Dion Fortune, and her books aren't half bad.


And, when you say works before the 20th century, do you mean books like the Goetia (or other grimoires), as i've heard there are several versions of the Goetia out there (like doesn't Crowley's one see them as just 'reprentations' of the brain (which i don't believe, i think demons, angels, gods, etc exist independently of us).

Thanks again for the advice :)

Goetia is for demons, though there are a few Angels in there acting as demons. I would recommend you look up John Dee :hahugh:

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

Demons are angels too. There are Light angels and Dark angels... both always affecting humans.


There is a WAR: the sons of Light agains the sons of Darkness.


The Book of Enoch mentions how they came to Earth and their relationship with humans.
http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Other_Books/Old_Testament_Apocrypha/book_of_enoch.htm (http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Other_Books/Old_Testament_Apocrypha/book_of_enoch.htm)



There is also a very clear and detailed text about the WAR: The War Scroll
http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Other_Books/Dead_Sea_Scrolls/the_war_scroll.htm (http://www.meta-religion.com/World_Religions/Christianity/Other_Books/Dead_Sea_Scrolls/the_war_scroll.htm)


Although this war is said to extend over forty years, the writer of the scroll was particularly concerned with the details of the very final day of battle. After six bloody engagements during this last battle, the Sons of Light and Sons of Darkness are deadlocked in a 3-3 tie. In the seventh and final confrontation "the great hand of God shall overcome Belial and all the angels of his dominion, and all men of his forces shall be destroyed forever"

God's purpose was to exalt the Sons of Light and to judge the Children of Darkness. The message is one of hope. In the face of such perverse evil, the Sons of Light are encouraged to persevere to the end. God was preparing to intervene and bring a permanent solution for the problem of evil.

The scroll itself is one of the first seven texts found by the Bedouin in 1947. Nineteen columns of text are preserved, lacking only a few lines at the bottom edge and the final page or pages of the composition (see text 54). Although six additional manuscripts were found seven years later in Cave 4 (4Q491-496), they are only moderately helpful in reconstructing the missing portions of 1QM.



Love and Bright Blessings,


Sirius

[Infinite Grey]

*SiRiUs* Bright_Star I am never going to read your posts until you change your font colour! GEEZ show some damn sense! How is anyone suppose to read that

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

*SiRiUs* Bright_Star I am never going to read your posts until you change your font colour! GEEZ show some damn sense! How is anyone suppose to read that

You already have read it then! :nyah: And guess what Mammi is gonna give you a present: "a black stikfa" I bet you like them! :)
Here:
http://dagg.hp.infoseek.co.jp/image/stikfas.jpg

Hey, YOU must know about fallen angels :nyah:


Love and Bright Blessings

Sirius

[Infinite Grey]

still not reading your posts.

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

still not reading your posts.

Hehehe, you're so evil that... I like you. How could I NOT like you? YOU are my other part, my counterpart.

No wonder I'm also called... "The Dark Side of the Moon" :)


http://www.purplemoon.com/Stickers/pinkfloyd-darkside.jpg

However, Mammy decides that "Colours and Lights" should triunph :)



btw, fallen angel... we're in the way of The Resolution. You are aware of that, aren't you? :nyah:




Love & Bright Blessings


Sirius

[David19]

Bethra recommended to me Dion Fortune, and her books aren't half bad.




Goetia is for demons, though there are a few Angels in there acting as demons. I would recommend you look up John Dee :hahugh:

Thanks for that, i'll get it out soon, BTW, what books on Hermeticism would you recommend, i think you suggested one by the Three Initiates (i can't remember the name right now, it began with a K), and i think i have that downloaded but are there any others (like is Initation into the Hermetics any good or anything else?).

Thanks again :).

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

I just wonder if any of you knows what the name Lucifer (dark/falllen angel) means...



Love & Bright Blessings,


Sirius

[Agaliha]

*SiRiUs* Bright_Star -- your font color is quite hard to read with this new coloring on the forum. Peacock is not joking. If you want people to read your posts, please change it to something better seen. Black. Dark Blue. Dark Red. Dark Purple. Anything like that.

Now for your question.


I just wonder if any of you knows what the name Lucifer (dark/falllen angel) means...


Lucifer is not necessary the dark/fallen angel. I don't believe they are one in the same. I will post sites about that in a moment.

Lucifer as a name/word means "The Light-Bearer" it's a term used to descibe the Morning Star (aka Venus). It's also a title of Diana in the form of "Diana Lucifera" -- Diana, the Light Bringer.


Lucifer was originally a Latin word meaning "light-bearer" (from lux, "light", and ferre, "to bear, bring"), a Roman astrological term for the "Morning Star", the planet Venus. The word Lucifer was the direct translation of the Greek eosphorus ("dawn-bearer"; cf. Greek phosphorus, "light-bearer") used by Jerome in the Vulgate. In that passage, Isaiah 14:12, it referred to one of the popular honorific titles of a Babylonian king; however, later interpretations of the text, and the influence of embellishments in works such as Dante's The Divine Comedy and Milton's Paradise Lost, led to the common idea in Christian mythology and folklore that Lucifer was a poetic appellation of Satan.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucifer



Isaiah 14:12-24 is interpreted by some as referring to Satan by the name "helel" in Hebrew. This is often translated as "Lucifer" or "Morning Star." The passage describes how he had fallen from heaven, was thrown to earth, expressed a desire to sit "on the mountains where the Gods assemble", wished to be like God, and had attacked many cities, leaving them in ruins. At first glance, this looks like a description of some of the activities of Satan. However, verse 4 clearly states that the passage refers to the King of Babylon, not to Satan. Isaiah was simply showing "sarcastic contempt for the mighty Babylonian monarch that had recently fallen, vanished as does [the morning star] Venus from the daytime sky."
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_sat3.htm






The word "Lucifer" in Isaiah 14:12 presents a minor problem to mainstream Christianity. It becomes a much larger problem to Bible literalists, and becomes a huge obstacle for the claims of Mormonism. John J. Robinson in A Pilgrim's Path, pp. 47-48 explains:"Lucifer makes his appearance in the fourteenth chapter of the Old Testament book of Isaiah, at the twelfth verse, and nowhere else: "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!"


The first problem is that Lucifer is a Latin name. So how did it find its way into a Hebrew manuscript, written before there was a Roman language? To find the answer, I consulted a scholar at the library of the Hebrew Union College in Cincinnati. What Hebrew name, I asked, was Satan given in this chapter of Isaiah, which describes the angel who fell to become the ruler of hell?



The answer was a surprise. In the original Hebrew text, the fourteenth chapter of Isaiah is not about a fallen angel, but about a fallen Babylonian king, who during his lifetime had persecuted the children of Israel. It contains no mention of Satan, either by name or reference. The Hebrew scholar could only speculate that some early Christian scribes, writing in the Latin tongue used by the Church, had decided for themselves that they wanted the story to be about a fallen angel, a creature not even mentioned in the original Hebrew text, and to whom they gave the name "Lucifer."



Why Lucifer? In Roman astronomy, Lucifer was the name given to the morning star (the star we now know by another Roman name, Venus). The morning star appears in the heavens just before dawn, heralding the rising sun. The name derives from the Latin term lucem ferre, bringer, or bearer, of light." In the Hebrew text the expression used to describe the Babylonian king before his death is Helal, son of Shahar, which can best be translated as "Day star, son of the Dawn." The name evokes the golden glitter of a proud king's dress and court (much as his personal splendor earned for King Louis XIV of France the appellation, "The Sun King").



The scholars authorized by ... King James I to translate the Bible into current English did not use the original Hebrew texts, but used versions translated ... largely by St. Jerome in the fourth century. Jerome had mistranslated the Hebraic metaphor, "Day star, son of the Dawn," as "Lucifer," and over the centuries a metamorphosis took place. Lucifer the morning star became a disobedient angel, cast out of heaven to rule eternally in hell. Theologians, writers, and poets interwove the myth with the doctrine of the Fall, and in Christian tradition Lucifer is now the same as Satan, the Devil, and --- ironically --- the Prince of Darkness.



So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for the morning star, the bringer of light. That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."


And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word of God'...."
Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues) went on to say,


"this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning. It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song. This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...


How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star. How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."
Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error. Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan"


So why is this a problem to Christians? Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer who they equate with Satan) is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning"). Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof (and has been used as such for hundreds of years now). As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach such a doctrine.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer') is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19, where the Greek text has exactly the same term: 'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for Jesus in Revelation 22:16.
FROM HERE (http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml)


I personally do not believe Lucifer is Satan or the devil.
Though even after reading it was a misunderstanding and mistranslation some people still do not want to release the idea of Satan being Lucifer. Oh well.

Also in Roman myth there is a god named Lucifer.


Lucifer ("light-bearer") is the personification of the planet Venus as the morningstar, and son of Aurora. He is the father of Ceyx. http://www.pantheon.org/articles/l/lucifer_2.html


Here's an image of Diana Lucifera Diana Lucifera (Diana Lucina), Roman (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0oGkjLCJ.1EPkABs1hXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE4cnRzZ3VuBGNvbG8DdwRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMwRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANNQVAwM DVfOTk-/SIG=11m00pio3/EXP=1156479298/**http%3a//www.aztriad.com/mater3.html)

[ViolinGoddess]

I just wonder if any of you knows what the name Lucifer (dark/falllen angel) means...



Love & Bright Blessings,


Sirius

Lucifer means "morning star".

Violin Goddess

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

Thank you Agaliha for sharing so much information and ViolinGoddess for making it short ;)


Agaliha you wrote Lucifer is not necessary the dark/fallen angel. I don't believe they are one in the same

So you are saying they're two separate angels?


Love and Bright Blessing!


Sirius

[Agaliha]

If you read the info I posted, that sentence would make sense. ;)

Many people think or assume Satan and Lucifer are the same. That Lucifer is just another title/name/aspect of Satan.
I'm saying and what the info I posted is saying is that they are not even connected. Lucifer is not the fallen angel or Satan.
Lucifer is the Morning Star-- Venus the planet/star-- and the mention of Lucifer in Isaiah (the only place it was mentioned in the OT) was a metaphor for the fallen Babylonian king...not a fallen angel.

I don't believe there is a fallen angel named Lucifer. That's just me though.
Are there other fallen angels? Maybe.
I used to believe in angels a lot more...but now I'm iffy.

Just read the info, it explains it. :)

[Infinite Grey]

Lucifer in Isaiah (the only place it was mentioned in the OT) was a metaphor for the fallen Babylonian king...not a fallen angel.

Actually it was talking about both, sort of comparing the two. The king in question was comparable to Lucifer and Lucifer to the king... Isaiah 14:(12) is a parable relating to all evil rulers, not just the King and/or Lucifer. They're both mentioned and given not within that chapter.

[Agaliha]

Eh, there are plenty of places that state that is not so.

However, verse 4 clearly states that the passage refers to the King of Babylon, not to Satan. Isaiah was simply showing "sarcastic contempt for the mighty Babylonian monarch that had recently fallen, vanished as does [the morning star] Venus from the daytime sky."

*

How does the confusion in translating this verse arise? The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar" which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn." This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it appears as a morning star. In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as "heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star. How did the translation "lucifer" arise? This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate. Was Jerome in error? Not at all. In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star. Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light, though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent power of the Babylonian king which then faded."
Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome...

On and on and on. Some info is in my post above.

To me, Lucifer is not a fallen angel and never was. To others, well that's up to them to decide.

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

Many people think or assume Satan and Lucifer are the same. That Lucifer is just another title/name/aspect of Satan.


Right! but... if it's another "aspect", wouldn't Lucifer and Satan make a Whole or Totality then?


♥ Love ♥

Sirius

[Agaliha]

Right! but... if it's another "aspect", wouldn't Lucifer and Satan make a Whole or Totality then?


::sigh::

So even after reading that info you still believe Lucifer to be a fallen angel?
Right. Okay then.

Lucifer is not Satan. I was stating that because of the mistranslation, misunderstanding and misrepresentation many people still believe them to be one in the same.
I'm not saying one can't, but I don't see why one would after knowing it was just a screw up in the text and understanding of the phrase and context. Whatever. Satan, the Devil. Not my thing.

There are countless names for the devil. The Prince of Darkness. Blah blah blah. Many consider Lucifer to be yet another name of Satan. Of the fallen angel. Of the black hole of evilness.

And no, it wouldn't make a whole or totality.
Lucifer is not the other half of Satan. It's just another name for the same thing.
You have nicknames I assume, being called by a nickname does not make it your other half or anything like that now does it.
Having many names and titles that refer to the same thing are doing just that--refering to the same thing. One thing.

Here are some of the other names.
All are refering to the same concept/thing.


The Devil is the name given to a supernatural entity who, in most Western religions, is the central embodiment of evil. This entity is also commonly referred to by a variety of names, including Satan, Lucifer, Mephistopheles and Beelzebub.
http://www.wikinfo.org/wiki.php?title=Devil

AND:

Abaddon
Revelation 9:11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+9:11)
Accuser of our brethren
Revelation 12:10 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+12:10)
Adversary
1 Peter 5:8 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1pe+5:8)
Angel of the bottomless pit
Revelation 9:11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+9:11)
Apollyon
Revelation 9:11 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+9:11)
Beelzebub
Matthew 12:24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:24)
Belial
2 Corinthians 6:15 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+6:15)
Crooked serpent
Isaiah 27:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+27:1)
Dragon
Isaiah 27:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+27:1); Revelation 20:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+20:2)
Enemy
Matthew 13:39 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+13:39)
Evil spirit
1 Samuel 16:14 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1sa+16:14)
Father of lies
John 8:44 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:44)
Great red dragon
Revelation 12:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+12:3)
Leviathan
Isaiah 27:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+27:1)
Liar
John 8:44 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:44)
Lying spirit
1 Kings 22:22 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ki+22:22)
Murderer
John 8:44 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+8:44)
Old serpent
Revelation 12:9 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+12:9); 20:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=re+20:2)
Piercing serpent
Isaiah 27:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=isa+27:1)
Power of darkness
Colossians 1:13 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=col+1:13)
Prince of this world
John 14:30 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=joh+14:30)
Prince of the devils
Matthew 12:24 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:24)
Prince of the power of the air
Ephesians 2:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eph+2:2)
Ruler of the darkness of this world
Ephesians 6:12 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eph+6:12)
Satan
1 Chronicles 21:1 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1ch+21:1); Job 1:6 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=job+1:6)
Serpent
Genesis 3:4,16 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=ge+3:4,16); 2 Corinthians 11:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+11:3)
Spirit that works in the children of disobedience
Ephesians 2:2 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=eph+2:2)
Tempter
Matthew 4:3 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+4:3); 1 Thessalonians 3:5 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=1th+3:5)
The god of this world
2 Corinthians 4:4 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=2co+4:4)
Unclean spirit
Matthew 12:43 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+12:43)
Wicked-one
Matthew 13:19,38 (http://www.studylight.org/desk/?query=mt+13:19,38)
http://www.studylight.org/con/ttt/view.cgi?number=T570

Yup.
I'm sure there are many more as well.

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

You didn't answer me! :) and don't distort my question... Would like a black stikfa for Christmas?! Mammy can give you one ;)

I said if Luficer and Satan are "aspects" of the same thing, wouldn't both of them "form" ONE? (not talking about falling angels now ;))


Love & Bright Blessings,


Sirius

[Agaliha]

You didn't answer me! :) and don't distort my question... Would like a black stikfa for Christmas?! Mammy can give you one ;)

I said if Luficer and Satan are "aspects" of the same thing, wouldn't both of them "form" ONE? (not talking about falling angels now ;))


Love & Bright Blessings,


Sirius

::sigh::
Uh. Whatever. I didn't distort anything. That's how I understood it. Perhaps you could clarify more if you don't want people to confuse things.

You said:
Originally Posted by *SiRiUs* Bright_Star http://www.mysticwicks.com/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?p=2760519#post2760519)
Right! but... if it's another "aspect", wouldn't Lucifer and Satan make a Whole or Totality then?


I took that to mean, does both together-- because you said Luficer AND Satan-- make a whole. To me that means two things making a whole.
I answered your question. They're just names of the same thing.
But I also said that Lucifer is not the Devil, Satan or a fallen angel. So it only refers to the same thing for those who believe they are the same thing.

There are countless names for the devil. The Prince of Darkness. Blah blah blah. Many consider Lucifer to be yet another name of Satan. Of the fallen angel. Of the black hole of evilness.


So what is it exactly that you are asking and how did any of my questions not answer it.
More clarification would really help. Just saying.

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

::sigh::
Uh. Whatever.
Yup, I expected that submission ;)

I took that to mean, does both together-- because you said Luficer AND Satan-- make a whole. To me that means two things making a whole.
I answered your question.

You've answered my question now, yes! It's like saying "The Two sides of the same coin". What is Light? what is darkness? They both make a "whole". Then, that whole/entire is The One.

The One therefore has two sides.


See this pic and you'll realize
http://www.purplemoon.com/Stickers/pinkfloyd-darkside.jpg



They're just names of the same thing.
Exactly!!! The One IS light but also darkness. Bear in mind the moon, mostly referred to women in general (Silver/Mercury/Quicksilver).


Now, what do you know about "incarnated fallen angels"?



♥ Love ♥


Sirius

[Agaliha]

I wasn't submitting to you or anything.
I was annoyed.
Hence the -- :sigh: Uh. Whatever.

As for the two sides to a coin. I'm not even going to waste my time and enegy to comment to that idea. Believe what you wish. I don't care.


Now, what do you know about "incarnated fallen angels"?


Are you asking for conversation or for info getting, because for info well...
I know that if I really wanted to learn and know about something I'd find a book or search Yahoo for sites to read about it.
That's what I know. I do it all the time, I'm really big on personal research and reading.
I want to know about say, Hinduism (this was a past interest of mine, spent months on it). I check out 30 plus books from the library, found every site about it and their pantheon and beliefs on the search engines, printed up tons of info, read, read, read and took notes. Countless notes.
For your first question: what does Lucifer mean--well you could have found that out by searching yourself or opening a dictionary. It's listed there.

Just saying, if you are interested and want to know--

Yahoo Search For "Incarnated Fallen Angels" (http://search.yahoo.com/search?p=incarnated+fallen+angels&fr=FP-tab-web-t410&toggle=1&cop=&ei=UTF-8) 51,200 hits in 0.19 seconds.

Angels used to be a slight obsession for me 10 years ago. Not so much anymore.

www.sarahsarchangels.com (http://www.sarahsarchangels.com) has some info about "fallen" angels and angels in general. It's a good site. Lots of info to read.

:reading:

[Shield_Wolf]

I have worked with only four Angels. One of them more then the others. They are Michael, Rapheal, Ureil, and Gabriel. But though my workings with them and what I know of the Christian versions of them(I mean no disrespect by that). The are different all together.
When I work with Ureil, if I start to get down on myself and say I can't do it or if I can it the point that I would hurt meself(nothing bad, just hit myself or something like that). Insted of talking to and help my nicely he will get in my face and make my quesion everything I believe in in I all most start to cry, if I get pysical he has put me into submistion. He has locked my arms behind my back before.

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

I wasn't submitting to you or anything.
I was annoyed.
Hence the -- :sigh: Uh. Whatever.

No. It's because YOU obey me :nyah: and because all of YOU have little time left ;)

By the way, fallen angel... nephilims also have little time left :)


Love & Bright Blessings,

Sirius

[*SiRiUs* Bright_Star]

They are Michael.

Oh, Michael (Who is like God) :) You know, Saint Michael is the CHIEF OF THE ARMY of all the angels, the chief princess.

Michael is one of the principal angels in Abrahamic tradition; his name was said to have been the war-cry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_cry) of the angels in the battle fought in heaven against Satan and his followers.
The figure of Michael probably originated in Chaldaea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaldea) as a protective god or spirit. Accepted by the Jews, he emerged as so major an angel in Jewish lore that he was honored as the patron angel of the nations (out of seventy, or seventy-two according to other sources) who did not fall from grace, his bias entirely understood since it favored God's Chosen People.
Much of the late Midrash (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash) detail about Michael was transmitted to Christian mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_mythology) through the Book of Enoch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Enoch) whence it was taken up and further elaborated.



In the Dead Sea Scrolls is the story "The War of the Sons of Light and the Sons of Darkness," in which Michael is described as the prince of light, leading forces of good against the darkness of evil, who is led by Belial (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belial). He is described as the "viceroy of heaven", a title that is said to have formerly belonged to Satan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Michael


http://www.marysprayersrosaries.com/images/St._Michael_Raphael.jpg

St Michael looks like a woman...


♥ Love ♥

Sirius

[ViolinGoddess]

Now, what do you know about "incarnated fallen angels"?

THey fall under the Otherkin category. If you don't know what Otherkin is, it's someone who beleives that in some way their spirit is somehow something other than human. Or that they were in a past life, something other than human. The categories that Otherkin can be are varied. Mostly they are things that are mythical or legendary creatures like elves, vampires, were_____, pixies, mermaids, angels, unicorns, gryphons, pheonixes, demons or fallen angels, dragons, etc. Personally, I'm an elf and an angel. ANd on my angelkin yahoo group there are many fallen angels and demons.

Violin Goddess

[Agaliha]

Again. That font-- hurts the eyes.


St Michael looks like a woman...


Well from what I understand angels aren't supose to be male or female. They're just angels. Androgynous.
Michael is not male or female, but both. Or neither.
Many of them look feminine and delicate at times, but that doesn't mean they're feminine.
The "he" we call them has little to no bearing on what they are. It's just more natural for people to say that it.

I have a Catholic silver medal of St. Michael. [Pic (http://www.northtexas.com/x5/Medals/cj_MD438XMASTER_St_Michael_Sterling_Silver_Saint_Michael_Medal_northtexas.jpg)] I got it for Christmas a few years ago.
When I was going to go into Law Enforcement I considered him my patron angel as he's the patron of cops. And Seattle, my city.

Anyway.

[Agaliha]

Personally, I'm an elf and an angel. ANd on my angelkin yahoo group there are many fallen angels and demons.
Violin Goddess

How do you know you are an angel?
Not looking to attack any beliefs, here. I'm honestly curious.

ETA: Feel free to not answer. Or to PM me to explain.

[ViolinGoddess]

I have worked with only four Angels. One of them more then the others. They are Michael, Rapheal, Ureil, and Gabriel. But though my workings with them and what I know of the Christian versions of them(I mean no disrespect by that). The are different all together.
When I work with Ureil, if I start to get down on myself and say I can't do it or if I can it the point that I would hurt meself(nothing bad, just hit myself or something like that). Insted of talking to and help my nicely he will get in my face and make my quesion everything I believe in in I all most start to cry, if I get pysical he has put me into submistion. He has locked my arms behind my back before.

That doesn't sound like any angel I've worked with. I would be cautious about dealing with this angel. I've met Ureil and he's a nice guy. I would also do some more research too.

Violin Goddess

[Agaliha]

Some links about Uriel. (whose name is not spelled Ureil, hebrew names of angels always end in EL as far as I know ;) )
Archangel Uriel (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqknWPZEn.AAT61XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE4N2Q1cmRhBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMwRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANNQVAwM DVfOTk-/SIG=11oqcuglm/EXP=1157081511/**http%3a//www.uriel.com/uriel/index.htm)
Uriel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqknWPZEn.AASK1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE4Y2pxbnNjBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMgRzZWMDc3IEdnRpZANNQVAwM DVfOTk-/SIG=11mgnkvc9/EXP=1157081511/**http%3a//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uriel)
JewishEncyclopedia.com - URIEL: (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqknWPZEn.AAbK1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5dDkxbjVoBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMTAEc2VjA3NyBHZ0aWQDTUFQM DA1Xzk5/SIG=133s5vm1v/EXP=1157081511/**http%3a//www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp%3fartid=49%26letter=U%26search=uriel)
Archangel Uriel (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqknWPZEn.AAdK1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5b20wNmk1BGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMTIEc2VjA3NyBHZ0aWQDTUFQM DA1Xzk5/SIG=1295ofucm/EXP=1157081511/**http%3a//www.sarahsarchangels.com/archangels/uriel.html)
Uriel (http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuqknWPZEn.AAlK1XNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE5aDM1N29rBGNvbG8DZQRsA1dTMQRwb3MDMjAEc2VjA3NyBHZ0aWQDTUFQM DA1Xzk5/SIG=12141rati/EXP=1157081511/**http%3a//www.pantheon.org/articles/u/uriel.html)