Stolen Gods

[Mouse]

I've been thinking lately (doesn't happen often, but it does happen, lol) why is it people pick patrons or matrons from patheons to use within neo-paganism, but don't worship them they way they would have traditionally been worshiped? Am I the only one that sees that as odd?

And why, with the excption of Christopagans, do people not choose to worship Jehova (sp) or Jesus within a neo-pagan context, without all the Christian mythology and rules? what i mean here is (going on what I've seen) Christopagans are Christians with a few pagan leanings, they don't generally just take Jehova and add him to paganism. Yet people will take the Greek Gods and worship them in a completely different way than they originally would have been worshiped.

A lot of people believe that their Gods are facets of another God, or that they don't exist in their own right, is this what makes it ok to pick a God from anywhere and worship in any way you feel like?

I think this is going to need a poll.

I'm going to stop now, because I'm too tired to make a lot of sense, but I hope someone knows what I'm on about and can respond.
I'm also not trying to upset anyone, I know a lot of people here practice in the way that I've decribed, and I'm not trying to belittle them, I just want to understand.

ETA: The poll option "inside everything and everyone" means in the sense that every person is a God/dess so are all animals and nature. I don't mean this in the sence that they are inside of us like our parents are etc.

[Philosophia]

I'm only going to give my personal view on this.
Gods/Goddesses change with time. They "evolutionize", adapt to modern society. While they don't lose all of their facets, most do change through time. I do feel that the Goddesses/Gods are fluid and can change. Do I find it odd? Only when they portray Gods/Goddesses as something they are fundamentally not. Basic, hard research into the historical background of any mythological being, is in my opinion, imperitive. However, like I stated, deities mostly change with time. So while they'll keep their "traditional" foundations, the way they are worshipped can be changed to suit the modern society.
Now, I know reconstructionists do try to keep with the traditional rituals and prayers (as do I) so not all Pagans change the rituals.

[Morr]

For me, personally, The Gods are first of all -- All individual beings with likes and dislikes, quirks and unique characteristics. All of them out there, including Y-H-V-H.

I believe that they are seperate, yet they are part of nature and us. They can reach down to us and communicate with us, in many ways.

Also, part of me believes they should be worshipped traditionally as their culture did many years ago, however, that is the Irish Reconstructionist in me speaking. I dont get angry if a none Celtic Reconstructionist worships my Gods. I dont mind Eclectic Witches or Wiccans, etc. But for me personally -- I'd rather stick to my pantheon and to the Ancient Irish traditions and lore.

[Cassie]

Looking at your poll I feel that wordship falls somewhere between the following categories.
Fine with being worshiped however we choose
Should be worshiped traditionally as their culture would have done
In my opinion the phrase,"however we choose" seems a little bit too open and perhaps even disrespectful.
On the other hand I personally am not a reconstructionist. I think it is useful and respectful to learn about how the Gods and Goddesses were worshiped according to their cultural lore but also to acknowledge that we are worshiping and/or working with these deities in a present day setting. I am sure "They" are aware of that.

[Zephyrstorm]

Looking over the options of the poll, I'd say that I can agree with all of them except the Gods are "ideas and symbols."

With the same stipulation as Cassie for the whole idea of worshipping "however we choose."
I'd say that balancing between worshipping the way that the ancients did, worshipping in a way that makes sense today, and doing it as They ask us, is the best balance. Let's face it, there are things that the ancients did that we don't really want to resurrect.
No matter how you frame it, the neighbors aren't going to be happy if you start collecting the skulls of your enemies. ;) I daresay they'd be rather nervous.

*shrugs* _inabox_
Neheti

[Toby Stimpson]

I agree with the pemise of your idea Mouse, but Im not sure if I agree with some detail. Anyone on here who knows me knows I am very much about traditional practices. Worshipping Hindu Gods I have taken great care to fit the practices both to their cultural roots as well as traditional and mythological roots. I agree that Gods, if you are going to take them on should be worshipped in the way their original worshippers and people practiced because not only are you enriching your connection and understanding of that God, but you become a part of that culture and can recognize the significance of poetry from the time, scriptures, what have you as ONE of them instead of soemone who doesnt know anything about the culture/religion the God came from. I think also, for me anyways, it is important to have that becasue if you do go with a polytheistic theory...who is to say it is respectful to worship the God ina way that is not traditional? I on the other hand also am very much a Pluralist and I think one can gain a vast appreciation and understandings of subtle underlying ties between religions, gods and cultures if you do have a large cast basic knowledge of several different pantheons/religions. I'll give you an example, I've only just recently began to look into the Celts again, I've been researching a little but already I've been able to see very much the Indo-Aryan traist common in my own ancient Hindu pantheon and the archetypal forms common to both Vedic Hindu and Celt. This is of no surprise when you think of the vast history of Indo Aryan peoples and their migrations. Now, would I condone a Celtic worshipper worshipping Kali as ifhe were worshipping the Morrighan? They are n some ways both Warrior Goddesses, but I dont think I could do that. I personally feel that to do that would be dsirespectful. Would I say that others shouldnt? Well, Im a little weird on that question.

I feel if the person has done their homework, has atleast gained an understanding of traditional practices and made an EDUCATED decision to do it a different way that they honestly feel is better, well...I say go for. But I know I have had times when I've found my eyes rolling at certain trends to bring Wicca and Hinduism together (not to say names but there is a new group with members on Mysticwicks that I can say I dont wish to be part of, I wish them well, but I find soem of their ideas to be disrespectful). So, in the end I think very much do your homework and if you decide to do it a diffferent way, impart your energy into it...ut for those who just choose whatever God or Goddess without doing any major research into their tradition they come from...well, what can I say. When you get into the whole aspects idea though, a lot of people I think should realize that those aspects are as culturally impasted as any major God really and to take that aspect (even if you do think that 'all gods are one' like to soem degree I do) that aspect is STILL part of that tradition and lessons to be learned from that God is still heavily invested into the native tradition. *phew* that was long. Good post Mouse :).

Namaste

Tobias

[maphdet]

I chose they are within us and everything and other.

I chose other, because everyone has thier own views on the Gods/Goddess/God/Goddess. And they are just as valid as the next person.

[-Sky-]

I agree with most of the options of the poll.Just like many others i can't decide between Worshiping and honouring the deities with the traditional way or choosing your individual way to worship a God or Goddess.I follow a Celtic path and i try to respect the tradition of our ancestors as much as i can.but i also strongly believe that in relgion it's also about expressing yourself and doing what feels right to you.So i say,be mindful of tradition,respect it,revere it but also do what feels right for you.Because if it feels right to you then it might be the voice of the Divine talking.

As for the essence of Gods and Goddesses,ill have to agree with Morr.I am a polytheist and i acknowledge all the different deities.I do,however,believe that they all come from the same divine energy but they are individuals.They have different personalities,likes and dislikes.Most of the times i adress a specific Goddess but sometimes i just talk to the Mother.

But,Mouse,i wonder why the thread is named "Stolen Gods".*confused*

[Agaliha]

I voted--

Not actually real beings but ideals/symbols
Inside everyone and everything. I'm a Pantheist and agnostic.
I don't belive in the gods theistically anymore. To me they are created by humans to describe the world, universe and everything within it (from flowers to sadness and death to thunder). But because they symbolize and describe aspects of us, Earth and the Universe I see that as being part of everything.

Flora to me is not a living breathing goddess that causes flowers to bloom by dancing around, rather Flora is the flowers, the reason why people felt the need to create a myth to describe something they didn't understand.

I'll use another example I posted in another thread, cutting and pasting to save time:


...I really didn't believe they were there [the gods]. I was more attracted and drawn to their symbolism. I also realized a lot of them were just outward expression of myself.
For example Seshet and Saraswati, both of them I thought "called" me. But really to me they are the pure essense of a artist, writer, poet, creator-- all wrapped into a package humans call "Seshet" and "Saraswati", they're energies, aspects of humans and earth. I am a poet, a writer, a library and book obsessed person, an artist. I was focusing on them because they were like me. Thats' all. Same with Bast, I've been obsessed with felines all my life. Same with Ganesh and my elephant obsession. Same with tons of others. When I really looked at my beliefs I realized they (gods) weren't there, it was just me trying to see them as real because I wanted them to be, because honoring aspects that were like me was comforting.
But I couldn't fool myself any longer. I don't see a problem in honoring those energies that we give names to in a symbolic sense. Is Saraswati there? Sure in every writer, poet and artist. She came into creation because there were people that were poets, inspired and wrote (on the banks of the Ganges way back in the Vedic age). But is she a goddess, alive, interceeding-- not in my belief.



That's basically it. I see the gods as created, symbols, metaphors, and aspects of everything we know. I don't honor them as anything more than that, to me they are not literal. If Bast were on my altar, it wouldn't be as a goddess, but as a symbol of the beauty of felines, my love (obsession) for them and a time when there were "gods". Saraswati if on there would be the symbolic representation for a creator, artist, writer, poet-- everything that I am and what means a lot to me.

ETA: I just wanted to add that I don't worship, honor, do spells or rituals with any deities. I respect their history because they are a part of us and our world and I recoginze their symbolism and meaning-- to me and the world. But I don't go any further than that...

[semi]

In my opinion, religion is a very personal thing and should be adaptable to meet personal needs. Doctrine created in the past may not apply to today's world. For example, I think a traditional way of offering Poseiden was to run some horses off of a ship and into the ocean. That would be frowned upon in most places these days. And even if a religious tradition does hold up to today's needs, it should still be adaptable to suit the individual practitioner's needs.

A religion must change with the times as the society that practices the religion changes. If not, a modern society ends up practicing ideals that are obsolete and the society suffers because of it.

I think tradition should be followed to a certain extent, but a person should not be bound to it or bound by it. There is nothing wrong with changing some traditions so that the religion may remain dynamic and growing and alive. There is also nothing wrong with establishing completely new traditions. There IS something wrong, in my opinion, with following traditions that have no relevance to real life in the modern world.

[Mouse]

Thankyou everyone for your opinions :)
I'm not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers, I'm just trying to see things from other peoples points of view.

Sky, I called this thread stolen gods because in a way they are stolen. For example a lot of pagans say that christians stole thier holidays. Same principle. I probably should have said "borrowed" instead.

[Carla O'Harris]

"Stolen" implies that they are somebody's property. They are no one's property. Some of them might think that their worshippers are their property, but that's another issue altogether.

[Mouse]

"Stolen" implies that they are somebody's property. They are no one's property. Some of them might think that their worshippers are their property, but that's another issue altogether.

Please, let's not turn this into another terminology argument! :awilly:

[cheddarsox]

My gut reaction says, worship them traditionally. I mean, why bother borrowing a deity, and then just using it as you please. If it was important enough to take on, then...follow through.

do it out of respect for the other followers if not out of respect for the deity.

Like if I borrow a friends shirt, I'm going to be extra careful with it, not paint my ceiling in it, not just because the shirt has value, but because it is meaningful to my friend. the way deities are worshipped is meaningful, symbolic, and part of a rich communication between groups of humanity.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters....has eternal consequences on a Divine plane, but it matters person to person, and culture, to culture, and that is no small thing.

cheddar

[Vitkyng]

I think that the deities are individuals, but linked to us all the same way we are linked to everything around us.

They do deserve our respect and deserve to be treated accordingly, not simply handled as if their names were simple tools. One should understand the culture of any deity that they choose to worship, as well as respect the way that that deity is traditionally worshipped in that culture.

[semi]

My gut reaction says, worship them traditionally. I mean, why bother borrowing a deity, and then just using it as you please. If it was important enough to take on, then...follow through.

do it out of respect for the other followers if not out of respect for the deity.

Like if I borrow a friends shirt, I'm going to be extra careful with it, not paint my ceiling in it, not just because the shirt has value, but because it is meaningful to my friend. the way deities are worshipped is meaningful, symbolic, and part of a rich communication between groups of humanity.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters....has eternal consequences on a Divine plane, but it matters person to person, and culture, to culture, and that is no small thing.

cheddar


I disagree with the shirt analogy. My religion is mine. I'm not borrowing it from anyone. The other followers of the religion have no bearing on what I do, just as I won't tell them what to do.

[Morr]

I disagree with the shirt analogy. My religion is mine. I'm not borrowing it from anyone. The other followers of the religion have no bearing on what I do, just as I won't tell them what to do.


Yes, true.

But your dieties or the spirits you work with make it clear to you, through your worship of them, that they like distinct offerings and things. These things are, usually, tied to Ancient offerings and traditions from the old cultures they come from.

While I agree that worship of Gods has evolved, the essence of the tradition is still there.

Where nowadays sacrificing your sheep to _____ is not a way of worship today, cooking and leaving a piece of the meat you cooked for yourself and your family out on your altar or in nature IS an evolved sort of sacrifice and offering you make to _____.

So while its evolved, the essence of the tradition is still there.

So the religion is not 100% yours to mold.

Of course, this theory of mine applies to those who actually believe in the Gods and Spirits out there to be individual distinct beings. If you are an agnostic or something like that, this theory is probably not the right one for you.

Either way, this is just my point of view. I hope it made sense!

[Vigdisdotter]

I've been thinking lately (doesn't happen often, but it does happen, lol) why is it people pick patrons or matrons

I didn't pick one, I was picked.

but don't worship them they way they would have traditionally been worshiped?

Because I live in the here and now, not in days gone by. The gods are not static. Why should their worship be?

what i mean here is (going on what I've seen) Christopagans are Christians with a few pagan leanings, they don't generally just take Jehova and add him to paganism.

Then they aren't Christian. Being Christian or Pagan isn't just about what gods you bend knees to. There's a lot more to it then that. And when you start mixing things, what you have is not what it began as but something new and different.

A lot of people believe that their Gods are facets of another God

I'm not one of them. Hard Polytheist here.

[semi]

Yes, true.

But your dieties or the spirits you work with make it clear to you, through your worship of them, that they like distinct offerings and things. These things are, usually, tied to Ancient offerings and traditions from the old cultures they come from.

While I agree that worship of Gods has evolved, the essence of the tradition is still there.

Where nowadays sacrificing your sheep to _____ is not a way of worship today, cooking and leaving a piece of the meat you cooked for yourself and your family out on your altar or in nature IS an evolved sort of sacrifice and offering you make to _____.

So while its evolved, the essence of the tradition is still there.

So the religion is not 100% yours to mold.

Of course, this theory of mine applies to those who actually believe in the Gods and Spirits out there to be individual distinct beings. If you are an agnostic or something like that, this theory is probably not the right one for you.

Either way, this is just my point of view. I hope it made sense!


I disagree. It's MY religion. My path. If I allowed it's parameters to limit myself because of traditions practiced before me, it wouldn't be mine. I consider tradition to be a guideline, an outline that you can fill in with your own colors or completely ignore. This is how NEW traditions come into being.

Also, I don't worship anything, but I know what you meant.

And what I meant about religion evolving to meet the needs of society as it too grows is easily illustrated by Ogun. In Ifa, he started out as the warrior who cleared paths through the jungle with his machete. As technology evolved, Ogun became the blacksmith of the orisha. Then he symbolized by the locomotive. Today he can be symbolized by the computer, among other things. He evolved. The religion evolved. If it had not, Ogun would still be just in the jungle with a machete, which isstill applicable to modern life, but only in a symbolic way. The religion and the traditions of the religion grew and evolved to the point that new traditions were created. This would not have happened had the old traditions been strictly adhered to.

[Morr]

*nods*

But Ogun still kept his warrior/technology/weaponry attributes and symbols throughout the ages.

You wont see him symbolizing say fertility or the sea (just as examples).

So the tradition and his ancient lore are still there and are unavoidable.


Take Jesus.

Its becoming a modern concept that he was actually a sort of Shaman and healer. 100 and 500 years ago, that wouldnt have been even thought of, BUT he still had the attributes of a healer and powerful, enlightnened man.

[semi]

I don't think that's tradition. Those are beings with attributes. Tradition is the ritualistic behavior that comes with working with these beings. In my opinion. But I haven't slept in a very long time. Brain stopping.

[Morr]

Well, I agreed with you that the traditional sociological ways of worship (see my sacrifice example) have changed along the years, to corrospond socity's changes and evolution.

But the traditional roles, concepts and stories of the Gods and Dieties around the world -- Have not. They may have evolved a but, but they have not completely changed.

But again, I am a reconstructionist.

[CelticMoon11]

I'd just like to point out one thing: Traditional worship doesn't neccessarily mean outdated.

If you scab and mix and match, and a particular diety has something specific they expect, you demand what you want without giving what they want in return, well, prepared to be b**ch slapped :lol:

I'm more sick of individuals that use dieties how they please for their own purposes, don't revere them, worship them, or give anything in return and expect them to deliver whatever they want when they want and wonder why their rituals aren't working and only perform ritual when they want something and the rest of the time "aren't [insert religion they claim to be]... but that's just my pet peeve :D

[plumedsnake]

I disagree. It's MY religion. My path. If I allowed it's parameters to limit myself because of traditions practiced before me, it wouldn't be mine. I consider tradition to be a guideline, an outline that you can fill in with your own colors or completely ignore. This is how NEW traditions come into being.

And what I meant about religion evolving to meet the needs of society as it too grows is easily illustrated by Ogun. In Ifa, he started out as the warrior who cleared paths through the jungle with his machete. As technology evolved, Ogun became the blacksmith of the orisha. Then he symbolized by the locomotive. Today he can be symbolized by the computer, among other things. He evolved. The religion evolved. If it had not, Ogun would still be just in the jungle with a machete, which isstill applicable to modern life, but only in a symbolic way. The religion and the traditions of the religion grew and evolved to the point that new traditions were created. This would not have happened had the old traditions been strictly adhered to.

I so agree, and the only circumstances to change are not only time, but geography as well. If a dieties favourite sacrificial victim is an animal or plant that does not grow on the continent where you live what do you do? You adapt which is exactly what the orisha devotees did in the new world. In fact I have a suspicion that dieties are not too fond of ritual perfection. There is something called Confession of Ignorance in certain ritual systems whereby you allow for the fact that you don't know it all. This, another personal belief of mine, is why I think Esu is first propitiated in ritual. I kind of see him not only as the messenger and bearer of offerings, but also as the 'blindspot'. The X factor, the Je ne sais quoi, in every thing that we may believe that we have got down.
I also take this as the meaning (for me at least) of the bible passage where a samaritan and Jew are arguing about the best way to worship God, cause the Jews do it in the temple and the samaritans do it on the mountain top and Jesus said soon the temple nor the mountain would matter but only those who worship in 'spirit and in truth'. I think that religious practice should be a culture and Culture in my defination consists of two parts: Traditions and Innovations.
And I totally agree that religion is a totally personal thing and you can start with a tradition but you ought to be free to tweak it here and there until you find what works for you. And if you can learn something from other traditions then that is all good too. A static culture is a dead culture.
When religious leaders go on about traditions, it is usually more about political power and control than religion.

On the other hand, I also think that some people are into certain dieties because they like the sound of the diety and what they've read about the diety, rather than because they've had any real experience of the diety, through ritual or otherwise.

[Ninjakitten]

I put "other". I think that no matter what our puny little brains think of Diety (when I say that, I include the possibility of more than one diety), that it is what it is. Different religions have come up in different cultures to try to explain the evidence they see in a higher power. My evidence is that Diety contacted me in a very powerful way that I couldn't deny, and drew me towards Christianity as a search to find out more. I am still Christian (as I try to follow Christ with guidance by Diety... "the Holy Spirit" if you will), but my ways of worship and understanding the world have evolved from there to include pagan practices (witchcraft and martial arts knowledge in understanding Divine Energies within Creation) and it is my way of expressing myself to Diety. It is my personal way to say "I love you" to stay open to what Diety wants to expose me to. Obviously, this means I'm a liberal Christian and don't take the Bible literally, and even see Diety as being expressed in "extra" Christian writings. I see tons of flaws in modern Christianity because of how the Church decided to organize who Jesus and who Diety are for it's own wants for power. Unfortunately, we don't really know how Moses, the Apostles, or any other of the "founding fathers" of Judaism and Christianity truly worshipped and saw Diety. All we have are some of the writings and we don't even know for sure how authentic or true they really are, so I rely on Diety to reveal to me what it wants me to know about it in it's own perfect and infinitely wise timing. In the meantime, I go with what diety says is okay for me (which I had confirmed in a conversation with Diety recently). Am I correct? I don't think any of us are, so all we can rely on is our personal relationship with Diety and stay open to what Diety wants us to know at the time given our limited capabilities of understanding the Infinite.

[semi]

I want to make it clear that I don't think it's a good idea to plunder a religion with no respect for it or for the ways of practice that have come before your discovery of it. Not only respect, but intelligence, wisdom, and sensitivity need to be applied to the process. The old traditions should be studied and honored before you reach in and pull something out to reshape it.

[cheddarsox]

*nods*

But Ogun still kept his warrior/technology/weaponry attributes and symbols throughout the ages.

You wont see him symbolizing say fertility or the sea (just as examples).

So the tradition and his ancient lore are still there and are unavoidable.




I'm with Morr on this one. Of course religions and traditions evolve, that is natural, an organic process, not the same as someone deciding they like the name or image of a deity, but not what it stands for and "doing their own thing with it".

Anubis is what Anubis is, he is not a lump of modeling clay for someone to decide that they want to leave offerings of baby wipes to, because they smell so pretty, and they are not comfortable with the whole death thing, so now they declare Anubis the goddess (have issues with Male deity) of kitty cats and breast implants...

Maybe Anubis would be laughing over the whole thing, but those who are the child of Anubis may rightly take offense at the "new" spin on things.

I feel that if people really want to "do their own thing" then do it 100%, and don't borrow other people's deities and play dress up with them.

I was sort of grossed out on a recent trip to AZ at the ridiculous portrayals, as nauseum, of Kokopeli. Maybe the Natives of the area are laughing all the way to the bank, but I was offended.

I guess anyone can create whatever religion they want, but I won't pretend to like it. It is hard to respect something that doesn't bother to respect its own origins.

cheddar

[Ninjakitten]

I want to make it clear that I don't think it's a good idea to plunder a religion with no respect for it or for the ways of practice that have come before your discovery of it. Not only respect, but intelligence, wisdom, and sensitivity need to be applied to the process. The old traditions should be studied and honored before you reach in and pull something out to reshape it.


Oh, yes. I agree with you here, too. BTW guys, what he said. After all, those traditions were created by cultures with their personal relationship with Diety, and personal relationships with Diety should always be honored and respected, even if they speak to you to a point to where you adopt them once you understand what they are really about.

[Cerulean_damselfly]

I voted other. The basic answer of 'essence of tradition' that has evolved--I'm hoping that what I am doing is in that category.

Here's a for-instance in my case. My example is how I practise home Shinto Norito prayers and respect ancestors twice a month. The Shinto high priest that can help me best is used to working with American-located students who have the mix of culture, heritage and appreciation, but needs guidance. He's navigated between traditional and modern adaptations in a way that works for me.

I'm on an e-forum and a member of the shrine even if it's not within a traditional framework of being the closest 'regional' shrine. For me it's a question of someone who can navigate with the old and new in a way I can understand.

I've spoken with other Japanese/English-speaking priests, a priestess and ministers of almagated or traditional practioners of Japanese faiths, but I knew after some discussion that I was looking for something else. I wanted a group that encouraged a home practise that reminded me of my paternal grandfather...and also was associated with a shrine that had a priest that knew how to explain as well as observe seasonal heritage festivals that reminded me of the family-oriented community center

I tried various options that elders of my family presented but among the four grandparents, their ways worked for them at the time and context of their lives. My parents have a quiet way that works for them. What I'm doing might seem to them more ritually and outwardly practised-which I feel is perfectly safe nowadays. My parents are from a generation that tends to hide their childhood knowledge of their cultural roots. They have never lost what they know, they just are used to surviving by seemingly only communicating in English. They try not to overtly seeming 'different'. That was a twentieth-century adaption among some first and second generation immigrants of Japanese--in my grandparent's case, those born between 1905-1915; in my parents case, those raised from the 1930's-1950's in California--that generation had historical events known as 'relocation' during World War II.

I am somewhat amused to remember my mother was able to listen and correct my grammar and speech in childhood language school, maybe even understand my grandmother, but
is only heard to communicate in English.

I will do the prayers and readings both in English and Japanese. The English portion is not traditional--but it is now available among my resources. In my present circumstance, it works better for me to do both languages (although it adds to the time of doing such prayers).

A very unusual thing was that I did not feel this open practise of Shinto was really necessary for a long time--until the last grandparent passed away at the age of 94 within the past two years. After that, it took me awhile to identify that Shinto practise was what I wanted to do in the family and shrine context.

I hope my too-long answer was able to convey something that is understandable to the questions posed...

Cerulean_Damselfy

[arianrhods_daughter]

I agree with a lot that's already been said, mostly I believe they should be worshiped with at least traditional aspects if not exactly how they were worshipped previously. I mean, what about those that demand human sacrifice? Legally you're in a bit of a pickle there!

[Meadhbh]

I agree with a lot that's already been said, mostly I believe they should be worshiped with at least traditional aspects if not exactly how they were worshipped previously. I mean, what about those that demand human sacrifice? Legally you're in a bit of a pickle there!

Thatas what I was thinking. While we should worship the gods within in some of the guidelines that have been used for centuries. You should ask the Morrigan for world peace for example simply because thats not who they are and what they work with. They are their own "person" with their own personality and area that they work well in. That being said times change and sometimes a way of doing things is changed, the human sacrifice thing is a good example any god now days that expects human sacrifice from its worshipper is going to be in for a surprise. I think we should use the old ways of doing things as best we can but keep in mind that we are living in the 21st century and some things have changed.

[CelticMoon11]

I agree with a lot that's already been said, mostly I believe they should be worshiped with at least traditional aspects if not exactly how they were worshipped previously. I mean, what about those that demand human sacrifice? Legally you're in a bit of a pickle there!

The key word in this statement is LEGALLY 8O :hahugh:

[Ninjakitten]

I mean, what about those that demand human sacrifice? Legally you're in a bit of a pickle there!


MMMM! Pickled humans! <I'm goin to Hell!>

[arianrhods_daughter]

I thought I'd get a few responses on that :lol: good ol' MW :) always good for a laugh

[Redshire]

I voted eveything but "other".

All real individuals-- They are indeed individual and distinct entities.
All facets of a greater being-- They are simply parts of the greater Divine Whole. Just as humans are part of the ecosystem, and Earth a part of the Milky Way.

Not actually real beings but ideals/symbols-- They contradict Themselves. They/It is everything.

Inside everyone and everything-- Nothing in Creation is seperate from anything else.

Fine with being worshiped however we choose-- They love to be spoken to, understood, and respected. The way in which you do so is irrrelevant to Them.

Should be worshiped traditionally as their culture would have done-- this is ideal, but not allways possible.


all IMHO.

[Athena-Nadine]

Yes, true.

But your dieties or the spirits you work with make it clear to you, through your worship of them, that they like distinct offerings and things. These things are, usually, tied to Ancient offerings and traditions from the old cultures they come from.

While I agree that worship of Gods has evolved, the essence of the tradition is still there.

Where nowadays sacrificing your sheep to _____ is not a way of worship today, cooking and leaving a piece of the meat you cooked for yourself and your family out on your altar or in nature IS an evolved sort of sacrifice and offering you make to _____.

So while its evolved, the essence of the tradition is still there.

So the religion is not 100% yours to mold.

Of course, this theory of mine applies to those who actually believe in the Gods and Spirits out there to be individual distinct beings. If you are an agnostic or something like that, this theory is probably not the right one for you.

Either way, this is just my point of view. I hope it made sense!

THis is how I see it, but I am a Reconstructionist as well so no surprise there. ;)

I'd just like to point out one thing: Traditional worship doesn't neccessarily mean outdated.

If you scab and mix and match, and a particular diety has something specific they expect, you demand what you want without giving what they want in return, well, prepared to be b**ch slapped :lol:

I'm more sick of individuals that use dieties how they please for their own purposes, don't revere them, worship them, or give anything in return and expect them to deliver whatever they want when they want and wonder why their rituals aren't working and only perform ritual when they want something and the rest of the time "aren't [insert religion they claim to be]... but that's just my pet peeve :D

I agree.

I want to make it clear that I don't think it's a good idea to plunder a religion with no respect for it or for the ways of practice that have come before your discovery of it. Not only respect, but intelligence, wisdom, and sensitivity need to be applied to the process. The old traditions should be studied and honored before you reach in and pull something out to reshape it.

YES!!!

[CelticMoon11]

bump

[Faelon_Moon_Hawk]

I've been thinking lately (doesn't happen often, but it does happen, lol) why is it people pick patrons or matrons from patheons to use within neo-paganism, but don't worship them they way they would have traditionally been worshiped? Am I the only one that sees that as odd?

And why, with the excption of Christopagans, do people not choose to worship Jehova (sp) or Jesus within a neo-pagan context, without all the Christian mythology and rules? what i mean here is (going on what I've seen) Christopagans are Christians with a few pagan leanings, they don't generally just take Jehova and add him to paganism. Yet people will take the Greek Gods and worship them in a completely different way than they originally would have been worshiped.

A lot of people believe that their Gods are facets of another God, or that they don't exist in their own right, is this what makes it ok to pick a God from anywhere and worship in any way you feel like?

I think this is going to need a poll.

I'm going to stop now, because I'm too tired to make a lot of sense, but I hope someone knows what I'm on about and can respond.
I'm also not trying to upset anyone, I know a lot of people here practice in the way that I've decribed, and I'm not trying to belittle them, I just want to understand.

ETA: The poll option "inside everything and everyone" means in the sense that every person is a God/dess so are all animals and nature. I don't mean this in the sence that they are inside of us like our parents are etc.

As others have said, this is not the ancient times, and things have changed quite a bit since then, people have in some ways too...as have the gods. But also, I am not of the people that would have worshipped my gods. I"m not egyptian (syrian is as close as i get) and I am not scandinavian (my bf is tho...and i've got some german)...so I don't feel i have to worship in ways that those ppl would have seeing as it's not that time and i'm not them. Bast & Ullr also haven't expressed any displeasure with how I worship them (other than 'hey, you need to do this more often'), so I assume they are fine with it. I have looked into worshippng them in more traditional ways, and I do call them by thier traditional titles, and do things that they are associated with (for example i ski, and ullr is a skiing god) which i think are the absolute best ways to worship them, better than any ceremony.

[plumedsnake]

I'm sorry but I have absolutely no respect for traditions and rituals that are practiced, without any knowledge of why, or what for, and done without knowledge of the intent behind them. This is pretty much the same way I felt as a kid for christians that take mass in Latin but don't even know what the mass is about and don't understand what they are saying.
But my real contempt for this really deepened a few years ago when I was in a play about FGM (female genital mutilation) and had to do a whole lot of research for it. When these women are asked why they do it all they have to say is, 'It is tradition'. What?!!!??? Is that the best reason you've got for taking away from little girls what is probably the sweetest experience in life. And giving them in return an increased risk of pregnancy miscarriage and disease and all sorts of other nasty shit!!!! "Our ancestors did it and we've always done it. It is tradition" Sorry, but I shit on that tradition. And all other traditionalists that cannot come up with a decent explanation for why they do what they do. I shit on them and apologise to my shit for defiling it with contact with them.

[CelticMoon11]

Deep breaths...

[coeur]

The nature of deities is a mystery. No one really knows.

[Ben Gruagach]

I wrote an article about mixing deities from different cultures a while back. It's available here on my own website (http://www.witchgrotto.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=19).

Basically, cultures have been mixing forever and magickians have been mixing deities from different cultures for thousands of years too. It's certainly not a new thing.

Different people have different explanations for the Divine (soft polytheism, hard polytheism, monotheism, atheism, etc.) and I'm not sure that any one of these explanations is correct. Use what makes sense to you!

[Morr]

I'm sorry but I have absolutely no respect for traditions and rituals that are practiced, without any knowledge of why, or what for, and done without knowledge of the intent behind them. This is pretty much the same way I felt as a kid for christians that take mass in Latin but don't even know what the mass is about and don't understand what they are saying.
But my real contempt for this really deepened a few years ago when I was in a play about FGM (female genital mutilation) and had to do a whole lot of research for it. When these women are asked why they do it all they have to say is, 'It is tradition'. What?!!!??? Is that the best reason you've got for taking away from little girls what is probably the sweetest experience in life. And giving them in return an increased risk of pregnancy miscarriage and disease and all sorts of other nasty shit!!!! "Our ancestors did it and we've always done it. It is tradition" Sorry, but I shit on that tradition. And all other traditionalists that cannot come up with a decent explanation for why they do what they do. I shit on them and apologise to my shit for defiling it with contact with them.



Admin Mode

Shitting on people and their traditions, as well as declaring it publically, here on MW is against the respect rule. You dont have to agree with various customs, traditions and the way people practice them, but dont disrespect them.

[plumedsnake]

Admin Mode

Shitting on people and their traditions, as well as declaring it publically, here on MW is against the respect rule. You dont have to agree with various customs, traditions and the way people practice them, but dont disrespect them.

Oops. I'm so sorry. i got carried away. My apologies . . . Truly.

[TaysatWesir]

Looking over the options of the poll, I'd say that I can agree with all of them except the Gods are "ideas and symbols."

With the same stipulation as Cassie for the whole idea of worshipping "however we choose."
I'd say that balancing between worshipping the way that the ancients did, worshipping in a way that makes sense today, and doing it as They ask us, is the best balance. Let's face it, there are things that the ancients did that we don't really want to resurrect.
No matter how you frame it, the neighbors aren't going to be happy if you start collecting the skulls of your enemies. ;) I daresay they'd be rather nervous.

*shrugs* _inabox_
Neheti
I agree! :)

[Mouse]

bump :)

[Shanti]

I didnt read any post because they are all right.
Heck the gods are whatever they are to the individual!

[CelticMoon11]

I didnt read any post because they are all right.
Heck the gods are whatever they are to the individual!

Are the Gods that subjective though? It makes it sound more like a perception than "what is" whatever that may be. Maybe there IS "one way" that dieties work. There isn't "one way" to be human, but we all are, humans aren't "subjective" just the internal processes

Just thinking out loud..

[Libris]

I feel that everyone should have the relationship with the Gods/Goddesses that works for them, so the following is just a description of my personal beliefs.

For me, the Gods are all separate entities with unique personalities. However, I also believe that they are all connected in the same way that all humans on this earth are connected with all other life forms (as per the Gaia Hypothesis). So while I wouldn't say I strictly agree that they are "all facets of the same divine being" I would go one step lower and say they're all connected to each other in a divine and powerful way. I think that they evolve and change as their followers' perceptions of them change in the same way that we may change over our life time as a result of outside influences. This being said, I prefer to worship them in as close to "native" ritual as possible, though this may have more to do with my love for reconstruction and history than anything else. I also have an animist bent so I really feel that every rock, tree, spring etc... has a spirit and life of its own.

I'm not sure if this makes sense to anyone else but it works for me :cheers:

[La Fortuna]

Hi all,

I am new, but I am going to stick my neck out here anyway.

I understand plumedsnake's passion for a tradition that mutilates or harms another human being. I, also, agree, perhaps not quite so passionately, that to follow tradition as closely as possible is crucial to experiencing actual proof from one's practice and let us have more of a reason than "it is traditional".

It may take some people time to discover their diety fully. If the faith is practiced incorrectly, however, little if any physical manifestation or proof will occur.

I practice the Kemetic (Ancient Egyptian) faith. It is virtually a reconstructed faith as the provenance is quite old.

Our (the faithful)'s view of gods and goddesses is well detailed in Egyptian history. Even so, each person's relationship with their diety or dieties is a personal path. In Kemetic faith, one can practice autonomously because there is so much written today and in ancient times. Other faiths are not quite so fortunate, therefore, leaving the adherent grasping for knowledge to practice their faith correctly.

If one is practicing correctly, one will see actual proof in physical manifestations resulting from ritual and prayer. If one is not practiciing correctly, then no results spiritual, physical or material will manifest.


In my practice, I see results within hours so I know that I am practicing according to the wishes of my G-d and my gods and goddesses. I can then guarantee that my practice is authentic and fruitful.

If one is doing it their own way, then they are practicing "Joe's religion" or "Betty's religion" not necessarily an established or "named" practice. This would be an ego driven practice. This is alright, of course, but let us call it what it is and not pretend that it is something else.

Of course, this is only my POV and I don't wish to offend anybody. I would just like us to be truthfull with ourselves and others. I hope that we all strive to make our practice, whatever it is, effective.

Thank you for presenting these questions. As for me, Kemetic faith generally sees the gods and goddess part of the source of One G-d, a monolatry.

I appreciate all of your views as I believe we are all here to learn, I know I am.

La F:wave:rtuna

:hailmol:

[CelticMoon11]

Bump

[Pandy Fackler]

A good poll and an even better question. Most everything I wanted to say has been covered. I just want to add a quote by Ghandi:

"God doesn't have a religion"

[Carla O'Harris]

My gut reaction says, worship them traditionally. I mean, why bother borrowing a deity, and then just using it as you please. If it was important enough to take on, then...follow through.

do it out of respect for the other followers if not out of respect for the deity.

Like if I borrow a friends shirt, I'm going to be extra careful with it, not paint my ceiling in it, not just because the shirt has value, but because it is meaningful to my friend. the way deities are worshipped is meaningful, symbolic, and part of a rich communication between groups of humanity.

Ultimately, I don't think it matters....has eternal consequences on a Divine plane, but it matters person to person, and culture, to culture, and that is no small thing.

cheddar


I like your approach, but it has its limitations. Remember that there are as many different Jesus's as there are denominations, and some of those would even believe the others are not worshipping the same being, but a satanic idea of Jesus, etc. Each one has their own exclusive ideas about how Jesus is to be worshipped, etc. How can one respect every single one of these contradictory ideas?

Showing respect to others is a good idea, but how each person shows respect is not subject to strict rules ; only guidelines. And how one shows respect in a public forum might be different in a private or quasi-private forum.

Otherwise we impinge upon freedom of worship.

[Carla O'Harris]

I wrote an article about mixing deities from different cultures a while back. It's available here on my own website (http://www.witchgrotto.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=19).

Basically, cultures have been mixing forever and magickians have been mixing deities from different cultures for thousands of years too. It's certainly not a new thing.

Different people have different explanations for the Divine (soft polytheism, hard polytheism, monotheism, atheism, etc.) and I'm not sure that any one of these explanations is correct. Use what makes sense to you!

Thank you, Ben, I appreciate your words, and your article. I think you present very important, coherent points.

[Carla O'Harris]

If one is doing it their own way, then they are practicing "Joe's religion" or "Betty's religion" not necessarily an established or "named" practice. This would be an ego driven practice. This is alright, of course, but let us call it what it is and not pretend that it is something else.


This is a good point, but it does not automatically make it ego-driven practice. Remember that groups can have a group-ego (or the chaos of all those egos combined). It might be argued that one might have a more clear channel on one's own than stepping into the mess of a Group's Religion, which can be just as ego-driven. It depends.

[kaosxmage]

We all must keep in mind what exactly the traditional approach is. Should we worship as the grunting primitive? Should we sacrifice livestock or humans in the name of our dieties? Or perhaps take the drugged out blissful release of the 70's.

It's unclear where you start "tradition". Armies invade and nations war. When the smoke cleared and the blood dried, many Gods found themselves adopted by the winner, while others were demonized, downgraded, or just disappeared. Factor in the migrations of races before the wars began, and tell me exactly what the main idea was. Hmmmm.

We evolve as a people. Our world and our culture advances in discovery, travel, technology, and more. The religion, or gods, of a people usually reflect in mythology the world of "now". I suspect that should still prove true. Spirit is bigger then borders. Even those borders are blurry now with the instant communication available to us.

On the other hand, if you invoke Set or something similar looking for love and flowers ...

Much love,
--Kaos

[Fiamma]

why is it people pick patrons or matrons from patheons to use within neo-paganism, but don't worship them they way they would have traditionally been worshiped?

The answer to your question is in your own words. If people worshiped deities following the traditions from back in the day, it wouldn't be neo-paganism, it would be reconstructionism.


Yet people will take the Greek Gods and worship them in a completely different way than they originally would have been worshiped.

I worship the Greek gods. In fact, I worship them in two different contexts...in a neopagan context, as well as a semi-reconstructionist context (stay with me here, you'll see)

First off, I am a member of Ar nDraiocht Fein (http://www.adf.org)...ADF is a neo-Druidic organization that encompasses all Indo-European cultures.

It is a neopagan organization that celebrates the "Wheel Of The Year", which is taken from Celtic/Norse/Germanic/Anglo-Saxon cultures, with the Autumn Equinox thrown in to make things symetrical. This arrangement is essentially solar-based. The Ancient Greeks followed a lunar calendar. And had a lot more than 8 festivals a year too.

But, betimes, my Grove sees fit to honor Greek deities at a high day. Now...let me use an example of our Mabon ritual for last year...Artemis and Apollo have nothing to do with Mabon or the Autumn Equinox....but what is one thign that comes to mind when you think of the equinox??? That's right...a day of equal light and dark. In other words, Balance. I think the Divine Children Of Leto are an excellent illustration of balance.

Now for those of you not familair with ADF, it is an organization that places a good deal of emphasis on scholarly work and historical accuracy. Members, especially when undertaking any study programs, are encouraged to look to the best resources available. And who better to tell us about what the ancient Greeks did than the old guys themselves...the Homeric writings, Hesiod, the many playwrites...so I started reading this literature as part of my study within ADF and became interested in more traditional worship of the Greek deities.

So...within my Grove, I have started a group of pople who are interested in learning more about traditional worship of the Greek gods. I did not replace one with the other because I feel that they both make sense.

I believe that they key to worshipping the gods in a neo-paganistic context is knowing whom you are worshipping and why. Don't be thoughtless about it...I know a group that found out the wrong way not to worship Anubis by giving him cookies and kool-aid. Careless combining of deitied from different pantheons, i think is also a big no-no (I really had to put both feet down when an ex-roommate wanted to do a ritual with Quetzalcoatl and Hathor last year. In the house. She knew nothing of Quetzalcoatl. I had studied the Aztecs a bit in college and had to 'splain a few things.)

A lot of people believe that their Gods are facets of another God, or that they don't exist in their own right, is this what makes it ok to pick a God from anywhere and worship in any way you feel like?

I don't believe this. I am a hard polytheist, so I see all the gods as separate, individual beings. I personally think that it's simplistic and insulting to say that any given god is "just an aspect of a bigger god". The "facets of a diamond" analogy doesn't fly with me.


Hope that adds a bit of insight...

[Mesektet]

Excellent questions. All of the above seems the most plausible in this reality.

[SilentDreams]

I picked "Other".

I think that many pagans worship the Gods in ways that have been taken from older traditions. Now, I'm not speaking of all pagans. I understand that paths such as Wicca are mainly based on modern practices and so the rituals they do wouldn't always be related to older traditions.

I myself worship my Mother and Father in the way that I feel the best about. I go with my "gut" instinct. I believe that if they were truly unhappy with how I've been celebrating/praising/worshiping them that there would be some sort of contact/sign of which I've had none to oppose what I'm doing. Acctually my actions are rather "bland" in comparison to others. I mainly just pray every day and occasionally do a small ritual. These are things which I doubt differ greatly from the original forms of worship for my Mother and Father.

But you do strike an interesting point. It would be nice for everyone to explore older ways of celebrating their given deities. One doesn't have to adopt these older traditions but just to know of them, I feel, would be rather educational and interesting.

As for Jesus and Jehova. I think many are scarred by more prominent faiths such as christianity, judaism, and others. So perhaps that leaves them shying away from such higher beings. To from what I understand Jesus was embedded in the christian faith. I myself wouldn't assume that Jesus would've liked christianity and judaism being molded to fit with pagan beliefs/rituals.

ETA: Oh and to add my beliefs on what the Gods are...

I believe that in all existence there is energy. I believe that we are all made of energy at our core. I believe that the Gods are beings of higher/stronger energy which I sometimes refer to(as I refer to humans and all things in existence) "facets of the same diamond". So are the gods real? Yes they are. They are just as real as you and I. Only difference being they have enhanced abilities.

[BlueWaves]

i'm quite suprised the " All real individuals" was selected. for them to be "real" "individual" did they then live on this earth? how did they receive their individuality beyond mere human contemplation?

[David19]

i'm quite suprised the " All real individuals" was selected. for them to be "real" "individual" did they then live on this earth? how did they receive their individuality beyond mere human contemplation?

Because being real individuals has nothing to do with living on this realm/plane, the gods are real individuals, just on different planes/realms, who can sometimes manifest or take on corporeal forms on this plane (or possess people, such as in Vodou, etc).

[BlueWaves]

so either:
*the gods have shown themselves to the shamanistic culture
*wisened people have visited them on the realms
*manifestations appeared and thus worshipped

how then did the romans choose their gods? or the norse? were the gods sighted and then worshipped?

as open as the internet makes the world today its hard to believe there are as many people back then as there is today that can travel to the astral plane. Please also dont say that magic is in any relation to astral traveling. To work magic is one thing. To center yourself, make yourself project is quite another.

Based on the above, it seems to me you would need a large amount of people to astrally project, see the gods/goddesses to be able to validify their existence. Blind faith? Possibly but when/how was the faith started? Obscurity? Then let me write down something on paper for others to read... *one moment*

[David19]

so either:
*the gods have shown themselves to the shamanistic culture
*wisened people have visited them on the realms
*manifestations appeared and thus worshipped

how then did the romans choose their gods? or the norse? were the gods sighted and then worshipped?

as open as the internet makes the world today its hard to believe there are as many people back then as there is today that can travel to the astral plane. Please also dont say that magic is in any relation to astral traveling. To work magic is one thing. To center yourself, make yourself project is quite another.

Based on the above, it seems to me you would need a large amount of people to astrally project, see the gods/goddesses to be able to validify their existence. Blind faith? Possibly but when/how was the faith started? Obscurity? Then let me write down something on paper for others to read... *one moment*

I don't see what astral projection has to do with anything, to me, the various gods showed themselves to the mystics, shamans, sorcerors, witches, etc of different cultures, e.g. Yahweh revealed himself to the Jews, the Kemetic gods to the Ancient Egyptians, Greek gods to the Ancient Greeks, etc.

While i don't think you can ever get scientific 'proof' of the gods, as they're supernatural, i do think people get visions of their deities or commune with them in some way (divination, etc).

If you don't agree or don't think the gods actually exist, that's fine, it's only my belief :).

[BlueWaves]

i realize its just your belief. i'm only saying. for someone to have a vision and then that god to represent something "Eros, god of love, etc etc" is that gleaned from the same person. or did first the god was found or revealed, then became "god of..." etc etc.

[David19]

i realize its just your belief. i'm only saying. for someone to have a vision and then that god to represent something "Eros, god of love, etc etc" is that gleaned from the same person. or did first the god was found or revealed, then became "god of..." etc etc.

I think the gods revealed themselves to people and that they have various specialities (but i don't believe in the idea of 'department' gods e.g. Aphrodite being onle a love god, etc).

Also, i think it may have just come from experimentation e.g. someone may have called upon Eros for love or lust and found it worked better than calling on him for war, etc, and maybe something similar happened with the other gods e.g. Yahweh, Isis, etc.

Not sure if that made sense :).

[BlueWaves]

so when did the accumulation happen enough to classify the god/ess?

[David19]

so when did the accumulation happen enough to classify the god/ess?

I don't know, maybe throughout time, when the gods were worshipped, by their various worshippers.

[BlueWaves]

but throughout time would mean that i better share my notebook with you so you can share it with... and so on...

unless its verbal. if its verbal, thats a whole nother ball park.

whisper in someone's ear: "my mom is wearing blue socks" and you'll just find so much hilarity what the last person "hears".

[David19]

but throughout time would mean that i better share my notebook with you so you can share it with... and so on...

unless its verbal. if its verbal, thats a whole nother ball park.

whisper in someone's ear: "my mom is wearing blue socks" and you'll just find so much hilarity what the last person "hears".

I guess that's we just have to have faith, that or we can ask the gods ourselves, e.g. ask Eros, or Freya, or Enki, Inanna, Isis, Yahweh, etc what they like, and their names :).

[Sydiama]

I'm only going to give my personal view on this.
Gods/Goddesses change with time. They "evolutionize", adapt to modern society. While they don't lose all of their facets, most do change through time. I do feel that the Goddesses/Gods are fluid and can change. Do I find it odd? Only when they portray Gods/Goddesses as something they are fundamentally not. Basic, hard research into the historical background of any mythological being, is in my opinion, imperitive. However, like I stated, deities mostly change with time. So while they'll keep their "traditional" foundations, the way they are worshipped can be changed to suit the modern society.
Now, I know reconstructionists do try to keep with the traditional rituals and prayers (as do I) so not all Pagans change the rituals.

I agree entirely. Any living religion has to adjust and change to remain being relavant, just as humans themself adjust and change.

Let's face it, when I was a child, we didn't have computers and anything resembling cell phones was straight out of Star Trek. Notice, I didn't say Next Generation, either. Today, not only have I adjusted to both, I just finished talking to my wife on my cell phone WHILE answering the survey on a typewriter attached to a tv.

Gods adjust to the times as well. If they don't, they don't belong to a living religion. However, they always have to stay grounded in their original contexts. Yemeya, owner of the sea, is not who you'd approach about issues concerning airplanes. However, Obatala, who lives in the clouds upon high mountains might be........

[Birdy]

oops.. I didn't read the "inside all of us" before I voted. I would've checked that one too. Carry on...

[mara]

This is something that has been on my mind a lot lately. I want to say that the gods and goddesses are all facets of one,because that always made the most sense to me, but in the past I had a very strong relationship with Hecate and believe that she is individual and real. If she is individual and real then I have to assume they all are.

[Glory]

This is an old thread but I found it through the search function, and I find it incredibly fascinating, because it's exactly the question that's been bugging me. I voted for the facets of a greater being, not real but symbols, inside everything and everyone, and fine with being worshiped however we choose. As you can see, my opinion is in pieces.

[Dustypuppy]

in some ways I see what you are saying. originally such deities would have been worshipped by very specific groups at very specific times and for very specific reasons. Now in the modern 'global village' technology has opened up new paths and ways of communication which simply werent avaliable before, society has moved on and as such perhaps so have the deities. If one believes that the deities are incorporated and very much a part of the universe which is continually developing and changing, altering its base states in every moment then I think it would be hard to see this as a problem as the world view will have changed, the worshippers will have changed and so i presume will the deities. It stands to reason that we now cannot fully reconstruct how ancient societies worshipped, though i do respect those greatly who spend a lot of time and energy in projects which 'recreate' to the best of current ability that which we presume the world and religious attitude was like in the said timespan eg the viking or Roman era. However i do not believe that one can worship or honour any gods in a bad manner. All energy directed to the divine reaches it through some means. It may well be perceived as insuting by hard polytheists who concentrate solely in one area of the spectrum, and thats fine, thats their bag but theres no reason to denigrate others who choose to worship in a different manner. I believe that if ones actions are truly sincere and one has the capability to operate with the necessary degree of skill and caution then any relationship between human and divine is valid.xx

[aluokaloo]

I'm only going to give my personal view on this.
Gods/Goddesses change with time. They "evolutionize", adapt to modern society. While they don't lose all of their facets, most do change through time. I do feel that the Goddesses/Gods are fluid and can change. Do I find it odd? Only when they portray Gods/Goddesses as something they are fundamentally not. Basic, hard research into the historical background of any mythological being, is in my opinion, imperitive. However, like I stated, deities mostly change with time. So while they'll keep their "traditional" foundations, the way they are worshipped can be changed to suit the modern society.
Now, I know reconstructionists do try to keep with the traditional rituals and prayers (as do I) so not all Pagans change the rituals.





Very good points, for example, deities like Hephaestus and Bridget have been patrons of blacksmiths for a very long time, but maybe these days they also watch over welders, and machinists. Aphrodite Isis and Hera may be overshadowing Marriage and Sex Counselors, and I'm sure the like of Mars and Morrigan are getting a kick outta the new military eqipment people come up with. Deities are way adaptable! As far as worshipping them, there's nothing wrong with trying out something new. I can't afford to throw the Gods weeks long parties!:cheers: But I can throw a special feast, with foods/drink that are sacred to the deities, clean the house, and myself, and invite Thyem into my hme for a special sit down dinner.Nor am I going to wreatha white bull in a garland of flowers, before sacrificing it. Just because that's just how the ancients did it. That doesn't mean however that I never use anything traditional at all. But as long as They know They're gettin love or respect, I'm sure that They are all good. Traditionally or otherwise. Their is nothing wrong with adaptation, and nothing wrong with traditionalism, or a little bit of both. For a personal axample, to honor Persephone's return in the spring, I'll make tasty and beautiful salads, and take my little one out to show her all the signs of springtime, baby birds, new shoots, and buds and flowers. I also read will read myths dedicated to that deity and incorpporate color, and symbolism. it's a link between old and new, you can't have on without the other after all. I don't the Gods are gonna smite you just because you brought green grapes instead of red ones. ;)

[Rainbow]

When I look to the past, I see a great deal of variation in the way Gods were looked upon and the way they were worshiped. There has effectively never been "One Way" to worship a particular God, even if certain people (clerical elite, traditionalists) claim there is. In the case of Reconstructionism, for example, what exactly are you reconstructing? The rites of a particular cult? The way laypeople practiced? The rituals designed for the clergy? And at which time period? Are you meticulously reconstructing one particular time period and one particular class of people, or are you taking from all time periods and classes but staying within one pantheon? How about the reconstructing of rituals which we know or can fairly assume came from some other culture? Are you sticking to only those things which you know were born specifically in that culture?

My practice is to an extent based on certain views. First of all, the Gods can change. Even in antiquity people would assert this, whether because they really believed it or to gain political or social advantage. Second, culture changes and it mixes with other cultures. That's how it's been for as long as we've had culture. And, third, I don't believe in "stealing" Gods, because (in my opinion, anyway), humans do not "own" Gods.

As far as keeping cultural context intact, I respect this and to an extent I do this myself, but I don't believe I must be limited to one framework just because some ancient people did it that way. How I worship my Gods is between me and my Gods.

[Hærfest Leah]

Good thread.

I voted;

Should be worshiped traditionally as their culture would have done.

It's called respect for the gods. If you can't respect them and the culture they come from (and honoring them in that aspect) then leave them alone. They are NOT tools to be used on a whim.

[David19]

My practice is to an extent based on certain views. First of all, the Gods can change. Even in antiquity people would assert this, whether because they really believed it or to gain political or social advantage. Second, culture changes and it mixes with other cultures. That's how it's been for as long as we've had culture. And, third, I don't believe in "stealing" Gods, because (in my opinion, anyway), humans do not "own" Gods.

As far as keeping cultural context intact, I respect this and to an extent I do this myself, but I don't believe I must be limited to one framework just because some ancient people did it that way. How I worship my Gods is between me and my Gods.


Good thread.

I voted;

Should be worshiped traditionally as their culture would have done.

It's called respect for the gods. If you can't respect them and the culture they come from (and honoring them in that aspect) then leave them alone. They are NOT tools to be used on a whim.

I agree with both of you, I think the gods and the original culture need to be respected and learned about, so you know how the gods were thought of and worshipped, what types of offerings they liked, what offerings and behaviours they didn't like, etc.

[Greybird]

This question has more facets than is immediately apparent. To the point, what is the 'traditional' way to worship a deity? Look into any deity and you'll see change and evolution.

Hathor was worshipped in Egypt. Aset was worshipped in Egypt. Aset gradually absorbed the qualities, appearances, and practices of Hathor. The Greeks then met Aset, took her to Greece and called here 'Isis'. The Romans borrowed her after that and took her as far as Hadrian's Wall in England.

Now, tell me - what is the traditional way of worhsipping Isis? The way the soldiers in England did? The way the Romans did in Rome? The way the Greeks did? The Egyptian way? During which dynasty? Before or after she absorbed bits of Hathor? Please tell me - which one is the traditional way that is 'correct',and which ones are 'incorrect'? What about the way that Susan in Brooklyn worships Isis?

How about whole groups of gods - what is the traditional way to worship the Vanir? The way it was done before or after they were overrun by the tribe that brought in the Aesir that became co-gods with them? Which nation's traditions involving them - there were different ones in half of the nations in Europe.

There isn't an easy answer. You have to be respectful to the gods. You have to study them and know what their wishes are. You have to be especially considerate of any set of gods for which there is still an active, living religion (Hindu deities, Native American deities come to mind.) You should also never, ever get creative and claim what you do to be historical, traditional, or authentic. You should be aware of various traditions concerning a particular deity, especially requirements and taboos. You should be especially careful about mixing pantheons for cultures that may not have been the best of friends historically.

You still have to keep in mind that borrowing, merging, importing, and co-opting deities has been a basic function of religion since the concept of religion began.

In the end, the only real answer is to study, be respectful, and for gods' sake, ask the gods their opinion!

[LadyCelt]

just wondering, is incorporating different paths and deities into your spiritual path called "eclcectic"?

[Thunder]

I do not personally believe that "The Gods" are real, specific, individual entities with personalities. I believe that man created these gods in his image because he was incapable of wrapping his brain around the mysteries of the universe without a crutch.

I believe that there is a "God-Force" that flows through all things and may, in-fact be our own collective soul. I believe that this force can and does manifest in many ways with great power.

I neither worship nor fear it. I try to honor it.

[maverick9750]

I know my position here is unpopular, and wouldn't come close to working with most gods, but the ones I choose (or chose me) did so out of my individuality. I flatly refuse to follow traditions. there are certain things that I do, some of which are "traditional" most of which aren't. I have a very close relationship with them, and they tell me what they want. usually they get it, sometimes I barter with with them. it depends on the situation. I see what others have done as irrelevent to my relationship. I know with most gods out there if someone were to try and do it the way I do, the god would either be insulted, or ignore the person.

I know I take risks by doing it this way, and there have been a few times that I have been "slapped" but my personal pride is one of the things they like about me and attempt to make me earn.

[David19]

just wondering, is incorporating different paths and deities into your spiritual path called "eclcectic"?

Yes, I think that would be eclectic.

[childofbast]

For me, personally, The Gods are first of all -- All individual beings with likes and dislikes, quirks and unique characteristics. All of them out there, including Y-H-V-H.

I believe that they are seperate, yet they are part of nature and us. They can reach down to us and communicate with us, in many ways.

Also, part of me believes they should be worshipped traditionally as their culture did many years ago, however, that is the Irish Reconstructionist in me speaking. I dont get angry if a none Celtic Reconstructionist worships my Gods. I dont mind Eclectic Witches or Wiccans, etc. But for me personally -- I'd rather stick to my pantheon and to the Ancient Irish traditions and lore.

Haha. Exactly what I was planning to say, more or less. :)

[MoonBreath]

For me, i see the Divine in all things, and the individual gods and goddesses as manifestations of the Holy Mother (Great Goddess) and Holy Father (Great God). However, I also have some aspects of a soft polytheist, because even though i see them as been different ways Goddess and God show themselves to people, they still retain their own unique personalities. To me, I think that it is a good idea to at least have some knowlege on the history and traits of the diety you are honoring. Also, i think that if the Divine has a problem with any part of how a person is worshippng them, then they will let him or her know. Just my two cents! _whistle_ :spinnysmi

[Labrynth]

I do understand where alot of peoples points of views are coming from, though i wonder that since we are obviously different people the those back during those ancient times, is it so wrong for the way we show our love for our God/desses to change and evolve as well?

I do agree that we should at least learn of the traditional ways, and form our path from knowledge, i guess i am sympathetic to both camps but i agree with Moon breaths post in saying that if we were worshipping them wrong they would let us know.

[kaosxmage]

Who's to say what the correct tradition of a God is? How far back will you go. Gods have been plucked from one pantheon and redesigned to fit another. This is history. War, migration, and curiousity have ensured the ever changing faces of divinity.

Shall we bow simply to Thunder, Father Sky, Mother Earth, and various other generalities in the name of tradition? I don't know many who would. Study what you can on the Dieties of your choice. Build a relationship with that entity or force. You'll be fine.

Afterall, is Isis strictly Aset of the Egyptians? If that's true, what of the thousands who responded to Isis in a different manner over the years? Is Odin the savage king feared by ancients in the steppes, or the refined king of the eddas? Ganesha has been revered in countless Hindu homes and temples. He's also honored by many Chaos Magicians. Are they wrong even when Ganesha seems to respond. I promise he's approached outside tradition.

Ponder. Wonder.

Much love,
-Kaosx