Why do Christians wear a cross?

[Avena]

I posted this on a Christian message board some time ago, and the only answer I got was "Because it is THE Christan symbol!!!"
Welllllllll I already guessed something like that, so ...

But what does the cross actually symbolize?

I know there are guys around that should be able to tell me.

[Danustouch]

The reason why the Christians wear a cross, is that to them, it is a symbol of Christs defeat over death, which then ransomed them from the same fate. Christians believe that when Jesus Hung on the cross, he was being a sacrifice for them. A sacrifice to end all sacrifices. That by his death, he saved them from ever having to go to hell for their sins, that he cleansed them of all their sins with that act. And that with his death, and then later ressurrection, he defeated death/satan/hell/and sin. So the cross to them, is a powerful symbol, and reminder, of the price he paid for them...and that through his death, they acheive eternal life. (eternal life meaning that through him, they can all go to Heaven, and have immortality of the soul), whereas if he had not died, and had their sins not been atoned for...well...their souls would have..."Died". To put it simply...

[Avena]

So, the death of Jesus is more important than his birth or resurrection?
But on the other hand his birthday is a far more important holiday in Christian tradition than his day of death... Any why not wear a symbol of Jesus' resurrection? Because what if he had just died without rising from the dead afterwards? Then his death would have been meaningless.
:confused:

[Phoenix]

The ressurection of Christ is SUPPOSSED to be held as more important than his birth (some of my older relatives still hold it as such.) However it is far easier to commercilize his birth rather than his death and ressurection. Easter used to be an important time year featuring deep religious introspection and fasting but through the years Christmas took over and presents and Santa Claus took centre stage.

[mol]

Thats why the cross 'usually' doesnt have Jesus on it when it is worn. The idea being that 'he isnt on there anymore'.

I often talk with my Christian friends about the cross. My stance has always been that if I were Jesus, the cross would probably not be one of my favorite symbols. Remember, even up until the last minute Jesus didnt want to be on that cross. Hence, "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" So, on the eventual return of Jesus Christ I often wonder if he wants to come back with crosses hanging everywhere.

I know I would be saying: "Hell no, Dad. Im not going down there. They are going to kill me again!"

[amberlaine]

Its a good point you make about CHrist not being on the cross in Protestant churches.

Does anyone nkow why the Catholics prefer to depict the CHrist on the cross?

[Danustouch]

LOL. Well..that's not exactly how Christianity views it. Their theology is built on the premise that he "Gave himself Up as a Sacrifice for All". Willingly. The times that he says.."Father, why hast thou forsaken me", according to biblical theologians, are there to illustrate Jesus' humanity, and his connection to us mere mortals. It is very important in Christian Theology, to show both Christs' Humanity, and his God Nature. Because it helps the common man to identify with him, and his teachings. It helps to bring it onto a more personal level, which people can identify with, and then to illustrate the values of Christian ideals, Such as "if anyone would come after me, let him take up his cross daily". Which, come to think about it, might be one of the reasons that people wear crosses.

Think on this. During the early days of the Christian Church, they were persecuted for their beliefs. Often, being killed and martyred for them. So the wearing of the cross, may have come about, as a symbolic gesture representing the afore mentioned verse "if anyone would come after me....". So perhaps the wearing of the cross, is a symbol of the people who are such true believers, that they would be willing to wear this symbol, despite the fact that they could have been persecuted, and killed for it. Thus, they would be following Christs example, of selflessness.

Of course, in modern times, it has begun to just symbolize a follower of Christ. I think that only a small portion of people who wear crosses, really understand the meaning of it. It has come be just a symbol of the gratefullness they have, that he was willing to die for them on the cross.

I would think that his ressurrection would have been a more integral part of their faith. And, in many christian branches, it IS. However, it would be pretty difficult to come up with a symbol which represented his ressurection, so, they came to accept the cross as the most visible reminder of his sacrifice.

[Danustouch]

Amberlaine, I'm not an expert on the Catholic Church, but I would suppose that it is for the above mentioned reason. Because depicting Christ in the midst of his suffering, effects people on a very deep level, showing his humanity, and the tribulation that he went through, to bring them salvation.

[amberlaine]

Ahh good point.

"If any man come after me, let him deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me into life eternally". (Dont know whta verse it is, sorry)

I do seem to rmemeber my mother syaing htat is why she word the cross. It is symbolic of her having "pciked up her cross", so to speak, to follow the CHrist into HEaven.

[mol]

Originally posted by Danustouch
LOL. Well..that's not exactly how Christianity views it. Their theology is built on the premise that he "Gave himself Up as a Sacrifice for All". Willingly. The times that he says.."Father, why hast thou forsaken me", according to biblical theologians, are there to illustrate Jesus' humanity, and his connection to us mere mortals. It is very important in Christian Theology, to show both Christs' Humanity, and his God Nature.

Actually, that is exactly how some Christians view the cross. And that connection with humanity works both ways. Jesus didnt just say that to appease humanity. He said it because he meant it. He went through with it, yes. He did it willingly, yes. But, I would wager he didnt WANT to die that day.

[Happydog]

The early Christians didn't use the cross as their symbol; they used the fish that we're all used to seeing on the backs of people's cars.

To the early Christians, wearing a crucifix around their necks would have been creepy. It'd be like wearing a little electric chair on a pendant, in their view. The cross was an execution method to them.

I find it deeply interesting that Christians have iconized the cross, which is basically a torture instrument, rather than say the image of the empty tomb or the image of the Risen Christ ascending bodily into heaven.

To me this points out a disturbing tendency in Christianity, the tendency to idolize suffering and death. People who suffer and die for Christianity are definitely idolized in the church, but how hard is it to be a martyr, really? All you have to do is walk into a hostile environment and do something that will annoy the natives, and someone's bound to shoot you. How heroic, really, is that?

It's much more difficult to LIVE the religious/spiritual life and deal with everyday situations from a Divine point of view. Being an extremist is easy; applying spiritual knowledge to everyday life is very difficult indeed.

Just some thoughts. Yes, I used to be a Christian.

[Kinsfire]

A very interesting book that I just finished reading is called "The Jesus Mysteries". It covers the similarities between the early Pagan Mystery religions and Christianity. They also proceed to tear apart the historical basis for Jesus. (Any of the available sources that weren't written by early Church people, since they also show that several of those church sources are forgeries.) They also make a good point for how few Christians were actually martyred for their faith, even during the Diocletian era.

If you get a chance to read it, please do. I found it extremely interesting, coming from my ex-Christian background. The authors are Timothy Freke and Peter Gandy. (I found it available on Amazon, as well as their other book, Jesus and the Lost Goddess : The Secret Teachings of the Original Christians. I plan on getting that next.)

Kinsfire

[Danustouch]

Mol...i think you misunderstood what I said. I didn't mean Jesus said that literally, to appease humanity. I meant that it was probably "included" in the biblical description of Jesus Crucifixion, to illustrate his humanity. In other words, it could easily have been left out, if the writers of the gospels had wanted to show only his "God Nature". But...they wanted to show his humanity, along with his Divinity. And yes, I'm sure that when he was on the cross, he did suffer, and wished that there was another way to bring the "salvation" to mankind. There are numerous other verses in the New Testament, about Christ having what would seem as "doubts", or "regrets" (for lack of better terms), about his role in the great passion play. The Garden of Gethsemane, the verse that speaks about "The Son of Man, having no place to lay his head", etc. However, The Modern Church, seems to downplay those doubts as much as possible. Leaving them in, of course, because they ARE important literary elements for establishing his humanity, but downplaying them, and putting the emphasis on his "Willingness" to die.

As for the fact that the early Christians did not wear crosses...I never exactly said that they did. As I was aware of the other symbol, that of the "fishes". What I said was.

So the wearing of the cross, may have come about, as a symbolic gesture representing the afore mentioned verse "if anyone would come after me....". So perhaps the wearing of the cross, is a symbol of the people who are such true believers, that they would be willing to wear this symbol, despite the fact that they could have been persecuted, and killed for it. Thus, they would be following Christs example, of selflessness

Meaning, that in time, the symbol of the cross, evolved, to become a symbol of ones willingness to follow in Christs footsteps, and endure any persecution of their faith, or any tribulation in life, in order to follow the path, and in Christs' footsteps, even unto death.

And as for the "disturbing trend" that one person posted, of Christians dwelling on death....well..really, the fact is HUMANITY focuses on Death. Because it is the ultimate unknown. It is a mystery that we cannot quite solve, and yet all have theories about. It isn't just Christianity. Look at the Sabbat of Samhain. We too, celebrate death. We see it as a sighn of rebirth, yes. But guess what, so do they. Only, a rebirth into Heaven, where as many of us see it as a rebirth into a new cycle of life.

[SILVER MYST]

I went to Catholic School for about 8 years, so I kinda know what I'm talking about. Christians wear the cross because, to them, it symbolizes Jesus's sacrifice for them. He died on the cross to save our souls, and to save us from our sins. That he died to grant us an eternity in heaven, and all that...I don't want to get into it too much right now. there is a big christian philosophy that goes along wiith the whole "Opening the Gates of Heaven" thing, too. BUt that's thwe basic jist of it.

Hope this answers your question.

[Myst]

That's a good thing, 'cause, well the rest of us were just making stuff up.

[BeachWitch]

From http://wilstar.com/holidays/easter.htm scroll down to the middle of the page:
The Cross is the symbol of the Crucifixion, as opposed to the Resurrection. However, at the Council of Nicaea, in A.D. 325, Constantine decreed that the Cross was the official symbol of Christianity. The Cross is not only a symbol of Easter, but it is more widely used, especially by the Catholic Church, as a year-round symbol of their faith. In my years of Catholic Schooling (can you believe I survived 12 of them??:eek: ) I was taught that the reason "Good Catholics" wear the cross was because Constantine decreed the Cross as the symbol of Christianity when he "converted" the "world".

And this site is very interesting http://www.the-gnosis-site.com/crosses.htm , showing the history of the various types of crosses.
At first, Christ was shown alive and well and fully clothed. It was not until the ninth century that he was shown almost naked and realistically suffering. There is, however, little doubt that Christ died completely naked. This could not be shown, not out of prudery, as many religious paintings of the era depicted total nudity, but to disguise the fact that he was a Jew. Hatred of Jews began to be cultivated by the church after the First Nicean Council, with promotion of the doctrine that Jews killed the savior.
This is interesting because the nuns always taught us that Christ was Christian (kind of silly, huh!) there was never any reference to Mary or Jesus being Jewish, but Joseph was a Jew and that is why the angels had to come to him in dreams to tell him to accept Mary as his wife and Jesus as his child.

God forbid the Savior of the World be Jewish, oy-vah what were they thinking?!?!?

[Danustouch]

oh..by the way..Happy dog. Christians Idolizing Martyrs, well...it isn't as if they idolize every person that has died. They Martyr people who were "Killed in the line of duty" so to speak. In other words, being a martyr, is not the same as a person who walks into a crowded room, and blows himself up for no apparent reason, or because he's a disgruntled employee. To be qualified as a Martyr, you have to have endured suffering for your Christian beliefs (speaking of christian martyrs, here). And the reason that they idolize them, is because in their theology, suffering on account of Christ, and on the behalf of mankind, is following the example that Christ gave them. MOST christians do not go looking around to BE a martyr. But...they encounter martyrdom when they are going about the work of God. When they are trying to walk in the footsteps of Jesus Christ, helping the poor, and the oppressed, bringing the gospel to people who have not heard it (and by the way, did I mention the fact that I may not personally agree with all of their practices, but am merely familiar with their belief system?), and someone kills them, in the line of duty, BECAUSE of their beliefs, they become a martyr. It most probably stems from the beatitudes. "Blessed are you who are persecuted for righteousness sake".

In other words...just like almost every one of us...they honor the people who do great things. They honor the people who are doing marvelous things, and improving the world. And when those people are cut down, in the midst of all the good that they are doing, they are honored even more.

Kinda like Ghandi. Kinda like Martin Luther King, Kinda like the world mourned Princess Diana. Kinda like we honored the fallen firemen after the World Trade Center attacks.

I see nothing disturbing in that, at all. It is right to honor those who try to save the lives of others, and those who try to improve this world.

Now..I may not personally agree that "Spreading the Gospel", is necessarily going to improve this planet, or do immense good. However..THEY do. And they are simply honoring what they think is righteousness.

[SILVER MYST]

THERE ARE BOOKS THAT YOU CAN CHECK OUT FROM LIBRARIES AND STUFF IF YOU'RE CURIOUS ABOUT IT! THAT MIGHT BE ABLE TO EXPLAIN THINGS BETTER THAN I DID.

[astrokaiju]

i think part of the reason the cross became the symbol of Christianity (rather than an empty tomb or his body rising to Heaven) is because it's easy to make and to integrate into things as a design. it's hard to depict an empty tomb with jewelry.

i'm sure there are other reasons as well. the cross already had some sort of mystical significance before it was adopted by Christianity, and some of the early Christian crosses were not shaped like the kind people were crucifed on-they were the kind where the two bars are the same length. as we all know, Christianity borrowed a lot from other religions it encountered as it grew-Roman and Greek mystery religions, European paganism, etc. and the Gnostics were considered a large part of Christianity in the early days (before the rest of the Christians decided they were too hard to stomach and disassociated with them), and ceremonial magic and mysticism was (and still is) a part of Gnosticism. so it could be that there is some occult purpose behind the cross.

[SILVER MYST]

IN KEEPING WITH WHAT DANUSTOUCH JUST MENTIONED, MARTYRS ARE PEOPLE WHO DIE FOR A CAUSE THAT THEY BELIEVE IN. AT LEAST, THAT'S WHAT I LEARNED. THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH OFTENTIMES TAKES THESE PEOPLE AND MAKES SAINTS OUT OF THEM. THIS GIVES THE CHRISTIANS SOMETHING MORE TO BELIEVE IN....SORT OF A "IF THEY CAN DO IT, THEN SO CAN I" KINDA THING. CHRISTIANS REVERE THESE PEOPLE AS HOLY BECAUSE THEY MODELED THEIR OWN LIVES AFTER JESUS'S TEACHINGS AND THE BIBLE.

[UlricDagon]

And I thought they where only used for fighting of vampires?

I guess thats not true ..................................


Blessed Be!

[SILVER MYST]

AS ASTROKAIJU POINTED OUT, THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION TAKES A LOT OF THINGS FROM OTHER RELIGIONS. THIS, I BELIEVE HAS A LOT TO DO WITH HISTORY, AND THE WAYS OF THE WORLD DURING IT'S EARLY YEARS. KEEP IN MIND THAT CHRISTIANITY WAS WIDELY PERSECUTED, ESPECIALLY IN THE ROMAN EMPIRE. SO, IN ORDER TO AVOID DEATH, CHRISTIANS HAD TO ADOPT OTHER TRADITIONS FROM OTHER RELIGIONS(FOR EXAMPLE, THE WICCAN HOLIDAY OESTRE{NOT SURE OF THE SPELLING} IS CELEBRATED AROUND THE SAME TIME AS THE CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY EASTER) IN ORDER TO STAY ALIVE.

[Lavender]

Pst! Silver Mist, you're shouting.

I remember reading that the length of the arms of the cross were symbolic too. Does anyone know why?

[amberlaine]

please...turn...caps lock....off....

[Happydog]

//. SO, IN ORDER TO AVOID DEATH, CHRISTIANS HAD TO ADOPT OTHER TRADITIONS FROM OTHER RELIGIONS(FOR EXAMPLE, THE WICCAN HOLIDAY OESTREIS CELEBRATED AROUND THE SAME TIME AS THE CHRISTIAN HOLIDAY EASTER) IN ORDER TO STAY ALIVE.//

Um.

Well, Oestre isn't a Wiccan holiday, she's a Goddess. The holiday that's celebrated is the Spring Equinox, which is a good deal older than Christianity.

If it were true that the Christians only celebrated these holidays in order to avoid getting killed, surely they would have stopped celebrating them as soon as Christianity was the dominant religion.

The truth is that Christianity did not catch on as quickly as some would have you believe, and that celebration of the old festivals persisted IN SPITE OF the Church's best efforts to stamp them out. The church simply took over the festival dates and put a veneer of Christian mythology over them. Christmas, which was originally Saturnalia, is the best example of this, but all the Christian "holidays" exhibit this to one extent or another.

In reference to my other message concerning martyrs, I don't necessarily think that one can truly liken the martyred Christian saints (many of whom are fictional) to someone like Martin Luther King, who accomplished a great deal of good for all humans everywhere. Martyrs, on the other hand, died in the attempt to impose a culturally-limited, confining worldview on people who may or may not have wanted to replace their perfectly good worldview with the martyr's.

A review of Fox's Book of Martyrs with an eye toward modern psychology will reveal a nest of neuroses passing themselves off as admirable traits for Christians. And does the martyr die spectacularly in order to glorify God, or do they provoke their own murders as supreme acts of egomania and/or unhealthy self-negation? Reviewing Fox's Book of Martyrs with that question in mind may lead one to some uncomfortable conclusions.

Of course this is all my opinion and should be taken as such. No offense is meant.

[SILVER MYST]

Sorry........habit.

[Danustouch]

With the Martin Luther King Jr thing, I was trying to give examples of how we all have martyrs, not just Christians. It is generally believed that when a person has done amazing things, to benefit mankind, and is killed in the line of duty, they should be honored.

Yes, there are people who actively seek martyrdom. But..there are others who are simply following their heart, and unfortunately, make a lot of enemies doing it, and get killed.

[rootwork13]

"A very interesting book that I just finished reading is called "The Jesus Mysteries". It covers the similarities between the early Pagan Mystery religions and Christianity. They also proceed to tear apart the historical basis for Jesus. (Any of the available sources that weren't written by early Church people, since they also show that several of those church sources are forgeries.) They also make a good point for how few Christians were actually martyred for their faith, even during the Diocletian era."

As always, it gets down to the written word and its' validity. Or does it? I don't like Silver RavenWolf as an author, but does that discount her validity? I don't believe in the infallibility of religious document, be they Christian, Hebrew, or Mohammedan; does that discount their importance? Does that mean that there IS nothing to them....what DOES all this mean? One can support any, ANY thesis these days, and support it well. After all, there's some allegedly incontrovertible evidence that the Holocost was really just a few select executions, nothing to get alarmed over...I won't quibble over persecutions; Christians were persecuted by Hebrews, Romans, and others; Hebrews were persecuted, Hebrews and Mohammedans still persecute each other and the list goes on. "how few" does not take away from the fact that persecution happened. My point here is don't take everything you read as gospel..no pun intended....lol.....we don't really know, do we? From modern writers to the alleged historians of the times in question....we only have their word and their presentation of what can be construted to be facts. We weren't there.
Anyway, back to Jesus. I believe in thoughtforms; lots of folks do. Doesn't matter to me whether or not he actually walked the Earth. Lots of folks have believed in Jesus for quite a while; I'm not really sure how many "thoughtforms" there are of him trotting about, but I found one who was Pagan friendly and stuck with him. As Ian Matthews wrote (oh, SO MANY years ago), "Jesus is just alright with me"...and I'm alright with him, and Hecate and Oya and Thor....

[Happydog]

Some very good points indeed...but forgive me for pointing out two things.

//Hebrews and Mohammedans still persecute each other and the list goes on.//

Muslims rrrrreally don't like to be called "Mohammedans," because that implies they worship Mohammed, which they will tell you is NOT the case. In some Islamic circles calling Muslims "Mohammedans" is considered highly insulting. Just wanted to warn you, no offense meant.

[Kinsfire]

Whoops - I hadn't quite made my point very well. The thing I was really trying to point out is the fact that we have taken as gospel (pun intended) that the histories the early church handed down are correct. The authors simply point out that even the Official Word of God (TM) as printed in the Bible contradicts itself. Just look at the genealogy listings. ANd why should it matter who Joseph's ancestor's were? According to the Bible, Jospeh had NOTHING to do with the conception!

Also, this book is not the only place I've seen the reference to the forgeries. Any of the more vituperous (sp?) Letters from Paul are forgeries. The ones that can be traced to Paul all show an extremelyt Gnostic bent to them.

And as for the Holocaust reference - if anyone bothers to check deeply enough, that falls apart in a heartbeat, because the Nazis were almost fanatical in their record-keeping. Same goes for the Romans. Roman records of the killing of Christians are actually LOWER numbers than are commonly reported. In one of the "anti-Christian" eras prior to Diocletian, the records show a whopping 50 people being killed during that several year period. What reason would the Romans have for underreporting the numbers? They were in charge.

Basically, my historical comment was saying that, according to the non-Church records, there is ZERO evidence that such a man existed. And these are both the Roman records AND the Jewish records of the time.

This, of course, completely avoids the original question asked. (Which, mind you, is not a unique symbol to Christianity, either.) Honestly, I think it was a reminder of Christ, and it was certainly easy for anyone to make one. (Just take two stick and bind them together, and there you go!) So any poor worshipper could have one.

[Kinsfire]

Originally posted by Kinsfire
In one of the "anti-Christian" eras prior to Diocletian, the records show a whopping 50 people being killed during that several year period. What reason would the Romans have for underreporting the numbers? They were in charge.

This is not to say that 50 people being murdered is an acceptable number, BTW.

[Arak]

Originally posted by mol


Actually, that is exactly how some Christians view the cross. And that connection with humanity works both ways. Jesus didnt just say that to appease humanity. He said it because he meant it. He went through with it, yes. He did it willingly, yes. But, I would wager he didnt WANT to die that day.

I can't imagine that he did want to die either...something about that whole pain and suffering thing....I'm sure even divine men aren't too fond of that (unless they are masochistic).

Seriously though, I believe that the cross not only represents Christ's mortal sacrifice, but also reminds Christians that He, through this sacrifice, overcame death/sin/hell/Satan, etc and that the symbol can give them the power to resist these things as well. I don't think I have seen a religion more afraid of death than the Christians...Christ gives them a reason not to be afraid through this symbol. This symbol reminds them that their faith promises them eternal life, the power of Christ's forgiveness, power to overcome the forces of evil, etc. It is, for them, the most powerful symbol one can wear.

We've all seen movies and heard the legends of how this symbol can ward away "evil" beings such as vampires, etc. It goes to show just how much stock they put in it. It is almost their little magical talisman against evil, death and other powerful things that they fear.

Blessings,
Arak /|\

[Danustouch]

uh-huh. But..the interesting thing about the Christian religion. Is that it is based upon Faith, and not upon "evidence". And faith does not need to prove itsself, so...generally, i try not to debate Jesus' existance.

But..if I WERE to debate his existance, I would point out the fact, that during the era suggested, numerous religious prophets and zealots WERE killed, and there were numerous "miracle workers" who WERE recorded as existing. As a matter of fact, several historians, including historians NOT connected with Christianity, even some Jewish Historians, have said that it is quite possible that he DID exist, as the fact that religious prophets/zealots/and miracle workers were so frequent during that time period, and so often dismissed as Radical Loonies, that it may NOT have made the records, being as it was such a frequent occurrance for these people. I mean, let's face it. The Romans probably did not have the same views about the death penalty as we do today. So, I'm sure that not every single person ever put to death by the romans, was recorded fastiduosly. It was commonplace, yesterdays news...it is entirely possible that he DID exist, and was simply forgotten by most of the historical annals. Joseph of Arimethea, however, mentioned frequently in the Gospels, HAS been proven to exist, if I remember correctly. Interestingly.

As to whether or not this means that everything written in the Gospels, and epistles is actually 100% truth..well..I would never say THAT. But neither do I think that everything written in them is 100% fabrication.

Edited to add: This was mostly in response to kinsfires last post, sorry..should have quoted.

[Myst]

You know I wonder if on Christian forums people sit and debate over whether Cernunnos or Hera existed.

[Lavender]

Originally posted by Myst
You know I wonder if on Christian forums people sit and debate over whether Cernunnos or Hera existed.

:rotfl: Ok, am I warped? I found that extremely funny!

[Myst]

Originally posted by Wildchild
Ok, am I warped? I found that extremely funny!

:rotfl:

[Kinsfire]

I found it pretty funny myself.

I apologize if it sounds like I'm harping on one thing. I'm really not sure, one way or the other, as to his historicity.

I just enjoy a pleasant debate, is all. Hope I didn't offend anyone too badly. Please forgive me, if I did offend.

[Myst]

I wasn't directing that at you, and no you haven't offended anyone. Don't worry. :)

This is a topic that seems to come up all the time tho - why Christians do this or that. It becomes surprising to me how many threads that aren't even related somehow have someone turning up to mention Christians in them. I just wonder if people sit at Christian boards discussing whether our deities and leaders existed, or why we believe this or that.

[Demeter]

Originally posted by Myst
.... I just wonder if people sit at Christian boards discussing whether our deities and leaders existed, or why we believe this or that.

I have become the resident witch and stirrer-up of controversies on a christian discussion group (they still seem to like me for some reason), so I can answer this one.

No. They don't. They exchange quotes from their favorite televangelists (and very occasionally actually discuss the Bible), and gossip, and praise God for making it rain, and other fun things. Sometimes they'll discuss whether baptism is necessary to be truly saved, or just the acceptance of Jesus. Or the superiority of one version of the Bible or another, and why they're not going to get the new "gender-neutral" version. Most of them don't even know pagans still exist. The ones that do, half of them think we are Satanists, and the other half KNOW our deities don't exist, and our leaders are all just wishful thinkers, and our beliefs "are as daft as a bag of rubber hammers" as someone once told my DH (Hi, Kinsfire, sweetie!). The only reason they might care why we believe something is so they can try to talk us out of it. Because they know we are WRONG and that is the end of it.

[amberlaine]

On the CHristian board I frequent, they like to dis JEws a lot, and talk about why circumcision is barbaric.

We pagans don't come up very often at all.

[SILVER MYST]

i know what you mean. I was a catholic until recently, and my family is still very Catholic. It's hard to even to discuss anything religious with them because they're all...."You're evil" about it.

[flar7]

the cross is more of a protestant symbol here in the U.S. and of
course the churches founded on protestantism. The crucifix is the
symbol mostly used by the catholic church.(I am not catholic, so
cant say they never wear crosses) but their is a difference
between the two.

To us christians, the cross represents the resurrection, his defeat
of death....hmmm, I've been outed! heheh.

Also, he didnt want to do it. He begged that the cup be taken
from him. As to his, "why has thou forsaken me?" many feel that
this was due to the fact that God cannot look on sin, and at the
moment of his death or just prior, "Darkness covered the land"
(I believe thats how it reads), this is interpreted as God turning
away from Jesus as Jesus assumes the sins of the world. At that
moment Jesus was truly alone.

A lot of christians have trouble dealing with the idea that Jesus
came as a mortal. He has said that everything he has done, any
could do. And some of his followers are credited with doing some
of those things. Paul raised the dead after the death of Jesus.

As to faith, you either have it, will have it, or never will have it.
I like the idea of Judge not, lest ye be Judged. Also, Jesus said
at one point,(cant remember where) that blessed be those who
have not seen(witnessed) and believe. Seems to mean, take it on faith, the inconsistancies will wash in the end.

hmmm, long rant. That may be a nickels worth!:p

[rootwork13]

"the cross is more of a protestant symbol here in the U.S. and of
course the churches founded on protestantism. The crucifix is the
symbol mostly used by the catholic church.(I am not catholic, so
cant say they never wear crosses) but their is a difference
between the two. "
I can't say I've studied this extensively....I don't believe in studying anything extensively (just for my own sake) as this runs the risk of getting overinvolved in theocracy/academia. However, the Hebrew Mages--mostly priests--kept the magic of the faith/religion. The Essenes were a rogue sect in the definition of the times; Jesus is alleged by some to have been an Essene (strongly indicating he would have had kids and a wife). Which can, if we let it, lead us to Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail, as this leads us to the pursuit of the Holy Bloodline, which is something===along with WWJD bracelets and keychains that I suspect Jesus would have frowned on. After all, he allegedly threw the moneychangers out of the temple; I'd like to see that done in quite a few temples in the here and now....Regardless of the faith (really an oxymoron, faith has nothing to do with it...social and political control are at the heart of the matter).

The protestant cross and the crucifix are uniquely different; we can debate those differences until our fingers get bloody on the keyboards; suffice to say, there's been more than one here with Catholic background who has addressed this adequately. One also needs to figure in the English "push" toward separation from the Church (HRC); give a gander to a history of Henry VIII's times and this will give you an idea...skewed by the author....of the politics of religion. The politicization of religion has been around since more than 3 talking monkeys could gather 'round a fire; it occurs in Pagan, Heathen, and Wiccan gatherings as well.

Here's another "outing", like it wasn't clear before. I've got several rosaries on my ancestors' altar....no Catholics in the closet in the bloodline (Methodist, and we make GREAT casseroles by damn!!) but a lot of influence in the latter days via the practitioners of Guadelupe and a bit of Santeria. I've been blessed with a Yankee Aunt by marriage who's RC; she's absolutely the most spriritual person I've ever known, right down to the uncanny visions and astral stuff. She just accepts it and moves along. The image of Jesus crucified is not a pleasant image, and I've been amongst the ones who remark that this surely is not what he would want to be remembered for..however, whether he lived or is a thoughtform, he leaves that decision to us. As as Ascended Master, his steps are ones which are noble enough to follow. As a Spiritual Brother, he appears to be a mage, a radical, and one who understood that physical life must at some time be surrendered.

Anyway, the heck with it. He rather likes the John Carpenter flick (grade C if ever that) "Prince of Darkness"; says it makes any Christian with half a crack in the brain open up a bit. Got to say I agree with him. Things ain't always what they seem, no matter how many experts agree on whatever it is they are agreeing upon (having survived 2 Reagan administrations and now a second Bush seige, I know that this is indeed a truth). Being an old English and Psych major, you can manipulate numbers and words easily......Like Oya, Hecate, Thor, Freya, and others with whom I've dealt, he answers questions....not always to my taste, but he never promised me a rose garden (Oh, wait, that was Kristofferson)......unity. Simple concept. Such a pain in the ass to achieve. Want some new fiction? "Screaming Eagle", Payton Boyle. 'Night, dream babies/r

[Danustouch]

huh????

[Raindancer]

You guys mentioned Catholics and Protestants, anyone know about Orthodox? They wear those big crucifixes everywhere.

The big reason we discuss this and Christians don't discuss us,except to say how evil we are is that most of us have been Christians at one time, examined and questioned it and found it wanting. Their whole basis is on faith and not examining that faith ( I think for fear it will break) Its not in their nature or mindset to consider the beliefs of others who fall outside of that mindset. If they did, there is every possibility that they would eventually cease being Christians. They fear not only death, but anything that they feel casts doubt on their beliefs and reality. Its really a very fragile basis to build a way of life on, and their fear can become dangerous among those more militant and ignorant sects.

Thats my opinion anyway, not putting down the ideals of Jesus, but I've often wondered what Jesus would have done had he known what would be done in his name. I think he would have been horrified and stuck to carpentry myself.
Raindancer

[Myst]

While it is good to consider and evaluate, there are those of us who don't do much more then judge and persecute. That makes us no better, and in fact far worse, because we aren't lead to believe there must be only one God and that believing otherwise is damnation.

[Happydog]

Yeah!! What Myst said!!

It is true that many pagans are ex-Christians who were looking for something that Christianity did not provide. The thing I have to remember is that Christianity did not provide spiritual fulfillment FOR ME.

I have run into many GOOD people who find spiritual fulfillment in Christianity. They don't try to push their beliefs on me, and I don't worry them with my beliefs. We can all get along and find our own path to the Divine.

There are indeed intolerant Christians, but have you noticed lately that they're being put in their place?

Remember when Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson made that statement about how pagans and the ACLU were responsible for the Sept 11 bombings? Remember how hard they got slapped down, even by their own people? Even Gee Dubya had to issue a press statement saying that he thought they owed everyone an apology. Then when Jerry Falwell gave out this half-assed apology a couple of days later, he was STILL criticized for it, until he finally had to give in and issue a formal apology.

As for Pat Robertson, he was grilled like a fish by Diane Sawyer on CBS about that statement until he wriggled and hemmed and hawed and finally ultimately had to apologize for it.

I'm not saying there aren't still intolerant Christians, but in the larger society, their intolerance is not being tolerated the way it used to be.

That's hard to remember when one lives in the Deep South for example, where you have to stay closeted a lot. But the fundies and the intolerant Christians are really a minority, demographically speaking; they just make a lot of noise, and tend to concentrate and clump together in certain areas of the country.

In short, we shouldn't let the Bad Christians (who don't follow what Jesus said anyway) make us angry toward the Good Christians who really "get" what Jesus was trying to say. Following Jesus isn't our path, but we can be tolerant and forgiving, even if some Christians can't be. And that will impress the good Christians (and everyone else) even more than anything we could say or protest about.

[Myst]

Also reminds me of the book burning that was protested by Pagans and Christians alike recently.

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=11944

[Raindancer]

I hope I'm not being too sensitive, but I hope that I'm not the target of Myst's statement. I know that there are good Christians and not so good ones, tolerant and intolerant, just as there are pagans who I wouldn't trust, having been burned a few times by them.

What I was saying was that we are having this discussion about Christians and their beliefs because A) we have some knowledge and experience with Christianity and Christians having in general come from that path to here. B) We got here because we are, by and large, people who question and explore. We weren't satisfied with the answers we got, and went elsewhere looking for them. We are people whose nature is to examine and discuss alternative paths.

It was said that they almost never discuss us and our beliefs except in terms of how to talk us out of them. My feeling based on my experience, is that is because their way is not a questioning one by and large. There may be some Christians who do question their faith and who do learn about alternatives both for the knowledge and to reaffirm their choice, but I would suggest that those people don't represent the mainstream. Maybe its my Catholic upbringing, but questioning the basis of Christianity got me a lot of negative feedback from the parish priest.

My understanding of other sects, especially fundamentalist ones, is that questioning the party line is a fast ticket to hell. No doubt there are many liberal Christian sects who are more tolerant of pagans, but it remains to be seen that they are a majority. I hope so, we aren't really that different. I hope that we will establish dialogues between us, because I think that somewhere in the process, hopefully, a light may switch on for them that we aren't so bad. It would help if they learned about us in respect for our right to believe as we do, and not just in search of a way to reconvert us back to their way.

I don't want to persecute them, but I also don't trust many ( not all ) of them to not oppress me. I think judging by the many things I've read that pagans have written in regard to their experiences and mistrust of Christianity, that I am not alone in this. For some the decision to leave Christianity was a result of a long thoughtful process which led to a friendly parting of the ways, for others it was a painful process of escape from coercion, social pressure, discrimination and sometimes ostracism because they dared to differ. Some people have had too many bad experiences to trust easily. I truly hope that some day it will all be different, as I said we have differences but we also have much in common, but tolerance and acceptance is a two way street.

Raindancer

[flar7]

A lot of Christians wear crosses for the same reasons that some
pagans weare pentacles. faith, cool, statement, decorative...

[Happydog]

//For some the decision to leave Christianity was ... a painful process of escape from coercion, social pressure, discrimination and sometimes ostracism because they dared to differ.//

Yes, at least for me it was. I was trapped in a christian group with people who were really exhibiting what could well be called cult-like behavior. This wasn't a group that is considered a cult, by the way; in most Protestant churches they are accepted. But the leaders of this particular group made things very cult-like, and I had to get out.

I also had to deal with a lot of my own programming, the changes I had made in order to fit in. I had to discard that.

I'll be truthful, it's just in the past five or six years that I've gotten to a point where I don't actively resent Christians. But I still think it's important to get over the past and into the present, and leave all the resentment and anger behind.

[Avena]

Thanks for all the informative and well researched replies! Why didn't I get replies like that on the Christian board?! Maybe they're already fed up with discussing that very topic...

Now I can even teach my Christian friends who didn't know the exact meaning of the cross either :)

[flar7]

Avena! I love your avatar! very cool.

[mol]

Originally posted by flar7
A lot of Christians wear crosses for the same reasons that some
pagans weare pentacles. faith, cool, statement, decorative...

Ahhh, flar. Always with the perfect reply. :)

[flar7]

comes from being perfect!;) what the? where did that sixth
finger come from?:rolleyes:

[Danustouch]

Question for the people who say that Christians do not evaluate their own beliefs, nor study alternative faiths. Well...let me ask you something. Now that you've found something that truly seems to fit what you yourself believe..how often do you question it?

Most Christians are Comfortable with their faith path. If that works for them, then so be it. Others have more curious natures, like myself, who must question everything, over and over, and over. I never stop questioning. But...it doesn't mean that I am somehow better than those who don't. I guess it is simply a personality difference, to tell the truth. If they are comfortable with their faith, and if it seems to answer all of their questions, then why SHOULD they keep questioning, and searching. I know that if I had all the answers to everything, I wouldn't question any further. By the way..I consider myelf to be mostly Wiccan these days. But..when I say I question, it means that I question certain principles of Wicca. Or...find some admirable qualities in other faiths, such as bhuddism, and wonder how they fit into my path..etc. It's not so much that I question my foundational beliefs constantly..just that I feel much of the time, that I'm still trying to find answers to certain questions that I hold. Heck...sometimes, it would be refreshing to think I knew all the answers to all my questions! Or even...MOST of them.

By the way, someone mentioned being part of a cultish atmosphere in a christian group. I know exactly what you are saying. I was in a Christian Ministry Group, throughout highschool. We performed dramatic plays, with a Christian message. However, it became far more "Pastor" worship, then "Jesus Worship" in many ways, I feel. The leader or pastor of the group, was quite controlling, and dogmatic. It took me quite some time to kind of deprogram some of the damage done to myself when I was in that group. Damage that had little to do with the "Scriptures" expoused by the group, but inflicted on a far more personal level. It's really hard to describe. But, suffice it to say, that this particular pastor taught an awful lot of self hatred, and 'beating onesself up". Etc. And even before I became a Pagan, even while I was still a christian, I began to question his methods, and to think that it was some sort of mass programming. Incidentally, when I left the group, they began a campaighn of slander against me. I heard about it, and confronted them on it, they were unrepentant. To say the least. Then, I ran into this "Minister" about three years ago..and went up to him to just say "hi"..and to see if there was any regret in his eyes. There wasn't. He looked exceedingly edgy around me though, and hardly aknowledged me. Not surprising.

But..do remember, these sort of groups are out there in every single religion. I have even met some pagan covens like that. They prey on people who have low self esteem. And Goddess knows there are people with low self esteem, in every single religious path on the face of the earth.

[MistOfTheSea86]

Originally posted by Danustouch
Question for the people who say that Christians do not evaluate their own beliefs, nor study alternative faiths. Well...let me ask you something. Now that you've found something that truly seems to fit what you yourself believe..how often do you question it?

Most Christians are Comfortable with their faith path. If that works for them, then so be it. Others have more curious natures, like myself, who must question everything, over and over, and over. I never stop questioning. But...it doesn't mean that I am somehow better than those who don't. I guess it is simply a personality difference, to tell the truth. If they are comfortable with their faith, and if it seems to answer all of their questions, then why SHOULD they keep questioning, and searching. I know that if I had all the answers to everything, I wouldn't question any further. By the way..I consider myelf to be mostly Wiccan these days. But..when I say I question, it means that I question certain principles of Wicca. Or...find some admirable qualities in other faiths, such as bhuddism, and wonder how they fit into my path..etc. It's not so much that I question my foundational beliefs constantly..just that I feel much of the time, that I'm still trying to find answers to certain questions that I hold. Heck...sometimes, it would be refreshing to think I knew all the answers to all my questions! Or even...MOST of them.

By the way, someone mentioned being part of a cultish atmosphere in a christian group. I know exactly what you are saying. I was in a Christian Ministry Group, throughout highschool. We performed dramatic plays, with a Christian message. However, it became far more "Pastor" worship, then "Jesus Worship" in many ways, I feel. The leader or pastor of the group, was quite controlling, and dogmatic. It took me quite some time to kind of deprogram some of the damage done to myself when I was in that group. Damage that had little to do with the "Scriptures" expoused by the group, but inflicted on a far more personal level. It's really hard to describe. But, suffice it to say, that this particular pastor taught an awful lot of self hatred, and 'beating onesself up". Etc. And even before I became a Pagan, even while I was still a christian, I began to question his methods, and to think that it was some sort of mass programming. Incidentally, when I left the group, they began a campaighn of slander against me. I heard about it, and confronted them on it, they were unrepentant. To say the least. Then, I ran into this "Minister" about three years ago..and went up to him to just say "hi"..and to see if there was any regret in his eyes. There wasn't. He looked exceedingly edgy around me though, and hardly aknowledged me. Not surprising.

But..do remember, these sort of groups are out there in every single religion. I have even met some pagan covens like that. They prey on people who have low self esteem. And Goddess knows there are people with low self esteem, in every single religious path on the face of the earth.

*AWE* What a great post! I completely agree!

[Raindancer]

[QUOTE] Danustouch Question for the people who say that Christians do not evaluate their own beliefs, nor study alternative faiths. Well...let me ask you something. Now that you've found something that truly seems to fit what you yourself believe..how often do you question it?

***************************************************
Pretty much all the time. I consider myself Wicca, but I don't "Do it by the book", I go with what feels right, but if/when the universe decides its time for me to get another piece of the puzzle, I take it with the understanding that it could change everything. Connecting with the infinite, growing spiritually in my opinion, isn't a destination, its a process. I may or may not ever arrive, but then its the journey thats important.

Maybe it is a character trait to question and seek answers, and some people are explorers wherever it takes them, and others are content to stay at home with what they know. What I was trying to say in reference to the previous posts, is that we were discussing other beliefs in part because we, byand large, are people who for whatever reason, weren't happy with where we were and went looking for something that had meaning for us. We found something different because we were willing and able to consider another way.

What someone said was that on the Christian boards they went to, the people there never discussed our beliefs ( except in so far as they were seeking a way to get us to believe their way) This is not to say that there aren't Christians who got to their faith the same way we did ( by questioning whatever they were taught up til that time) but that there is a large element within the Christian community of people who don't question their faith at all. Furthermore, they have a hard time accepting that other paths are fine for other people, they seem to think that you have been waiting all your life for them to turn on some light and make you a Christian.

Many of them may have been born into it but few pagans as yet, have been born into it, most of us came into it from somewhere else, and whether or not we question it now, we once did, which is more than many of those people from those message boards apparently do. For me, as I said, its a process and process is change, I consider myself a "Work in progress"

I know what you mean about covens being cult-like, thats a big reason that although I enjoy getting together with my fellow Wiccans/pagans to celebrate a Solstice or some other get together, I much prefer to be Solitary. religion is a very personal thing and its for each person to work it out for themselves, and nobody has the right to tell someone else that they're "Doing it wrong". Certainly not me. I have two concerns about joining a coven, !) That someone will be on some kind of power trip and try to bend me to their way, and 2) That the rest of the people will look for someone to tell them what to do and look at me. NO THANK YOU...I don't have all the answers. Thats the second fastest way to make me start looking for the door.

What I would like to see though is some dialogue between us and some bridges based on mutual respect being built so that we can all co-exist peacefully, but thats a two-way street, and it takes at least two open minds to start a dialogue. What is encouraging is that a couple times I've seen where a couple of Christians, one of them a minister, took the time to examine our beliefs, who we are, and found that we were not at all what they thought going in. They said that they were going to go back and tell people that we are people of the light also, and that we're really on the same side. Maybe people like that are our real hope for acceptance by the mainstream religious community. Maybe like life, its a process and just takes time.
Blessings
Raindancer

[astrokaiju]

erm...i don't think that MOST pagans are ex-Christians. maybe many of them, but my guess is that a lot of pagans came from a background that wasn't particularly religious (and i mean about any religion-not just Christianity), and that when they decided to investigate faith for themselves, they found paganism. and even if my assumption is wrong, i still don't think that most pagans were ever Christians. that would make it seem that paganism is just a refuge from Christianity, that two religions exist in the world and that you're either one or the other. i don't think it's so.

[Avena]

Originally posted by flar7
Avena! I love your avatar! very cool.

I love people saying they love my avatar!

[Myst]

Originally posted by Raindancer
[QUOTE]Pretty much all the time. I consider myself Wicca, but I don't "Do it by the book", I go with what feels right, but if/when the universe decides its time for me to get another piece of the puzzle, I take it with the understanding that it could change everything. Connecting with the infinite, growing spiritually in my opinion, isn't a destination, its a process. I may or may not ever arrive, but then its the journey thats important.

First, if you're Wiccan, Wicca teaches growth and change. Christianity does not. Therefore if you're comfortable with your path that's great, your path teaches you to learn and change daily. Christianity does not. You just go by the Bible and love God. That's not a failing, but a difference between religions. You don't daily sit there and go "hm do I want to be Wiccan today?" and if you do, then I'd say you aren't perfectly comfortable in your path.

I know a lot of Pagans who don't make the effort to grow and change, to research, learn, or practice new things, so why should Christians be judged by not wanting to do so, especially when their path says "follow the Bible, love God, or go to Hell".

Obviously a lot of us came to Paganism because it "feels right" for us right now. Meanwhile Christians feel Christianity is right.

If we don't want to be judged by Christian ideals we shouldn't be judging them by ours.

There *is* dialogue between us. I personally get along with all kinds of people of different faiths, some of my best friends are Christian. It starts with me respecting them, and giving them reason to respect me - not judgment or condemnation from either side.

[Raindancer]

Hmmm I guess as always, it comes down to cases. Like you say, it felt right to me. I got to Wicca after searching most of my life for something that articulated what my heart felt was true. In that sense, as many say, I always have been, but I didn't have a name for what I felt. At the same time, I feel something greater beyond, and want to connect with that and come to know that: Spiritual growth, a process of becoming.

I understand that Christians might feel that their beliefs articulate what they feel. I don't have a problem with that, everyone is entitled to that. If you want that for yourself, you have to support that right for others.

It pretty much seemed like a given to me that as most pagans came from some other background, left that and came around to this, that they must have been looking for something that they weren't getting before. Upon arriving there? Dunno. I guess its all up to the individual.

I guess what bugs me is the vibes I get from some, that smug assurance that their way is right and everyone else is wrong. That I should be subjected to their arrogant assumptions that I should be subjected to their belief system until I convert. Even more, that if I dare to believe as I do, that in some way they might make trouble for me in my personal life. I have heard too many stories of people having their children taken away and so on because they were pagan and therefore unfit parents. I have three kids that I raise alone, and have to deal with it every day practically. Over here church and state are not as firmly separate as over there.

I am quite willing to respect their right to believe as they do, but the idea that all they are interested in my beliefs is to find a way to talk me into theirs grates. Its not the believers that bother me, its the evangelists. And even then, when they come to the door, if I believe that they mean well, I try to be courteous and discuss beliefs if they are willing. Some are. Others are just interested in scoring one for Jesus. To them I just say no thanks you're wasting your time.

It comes down to respect, its got to be a two way street.

Raindancer

[Myst]

Yup, that's true. It is a two way street. And if you're sure you're being respectful, then I think that's great. We can't force the hands of others, only ourselves, that's all.

What I said in this thread was mostly to encourage thought and self evaluation. I don't mean to tell people what to do or anything; I just hope people see that respect *IS* a two way street, and you always have the ability to show respect just as you would ask for from others.

There are disrespectful, rude, smug people in both camps. To me, we are more responsible to be respectful - we aren't going to be damned to Hell for saying their path is ok. We are part of a path that teaches self responsibility, love, and growth, and I think part of that is accepting other beliefs and extending courtesy and respect to those who follow them just as we would ask courtesy and respect from them.

And if you try, and you don't get respect back; sure, don't associate with that person anymore. But remember that's one person, not everyone, who hasn't shown you respect when you've given them respect.

I've personally seen much more persecution of Christians then Pagans in my lifetime.

[Raindancer]

I've always felt that theres lots of ways to get there, whats important is making the journey.
Raindancer

[BrightStar]

Hi all!
Wow,intersting discussion.
On the fish symbol.Didn't the early Christians draw it in the dirt,or on the ground,upon meeting another memeber of the faith?I'd heard they did so,and it could be easily erased,kind of like pentacles drawn in wax by Witches in the Middle ages.I heard the idea of the symbol was the they were "Fishers of men",working to convert the world.
I've always questioned,always been a skeptic.Wasn't raised in a religious household at all.I'd go to churches a lot in my teens,with a school group that sang and danced.Some of those old places were kind of cool.
Here,in Oklahoma,mostly I deal with Southern Baptists.I think they're taught at a very early age not to question any of it.That only the debble leads them to question it.Which is fine,I guess,if you're happy with that.But,for me,it would be a sad life.Questioning things is how I learn.Without questioning,I'd just be ignorant,not stupid mind you,just ignorant and wouldn't know any better than what I was told.It would seem like a life not lived to the fullest.
I'm a very skeptical Witch,not even sure if Wicca is right.For me,the deities are mostly archetypes.
Oh well,just my opinions.
Peace and Love,
BrightStar

[bluecat]

The Roman Emperor Constaintine was actually (I think) the first to use the cross widely. During a battle with another Roman (who was said to be Pagan) to decide who would rule Rome, Constaintine claimed to have seen a vision of a cross in the sky. From that point he had all of the standards changed from the former Roman Symbol to the Cross.

His legions fought under the new standard and overcame his enemy. This cemented his belief in his vision. Constaintine then claimed Rome and declared Christianity as the official religion of the State. He killed his sons and his wife (in very horrible ways) because they would not convert to the new State religion. The use of the cross has quite auspicious origins.

As far as other reasons and the use of the Christ figure on the Cross ... I will have to look at some more sources.

Blue

[Traknavar]

I often talk with my Christian friends about the cross. My stance has always been that if I were Jesus, the cross would probably not be one of my favorite symbols. Remember, even up until the last minute Jesus didnt want to be on that cross. Hence, "Father, why hast thou forsaken me?" So, on the eventual return of Jesus Christ I often wonder if he wants to come back with crosses hanging everywhere.

I know I would be saying: "Hell no, Dad. Im not going down there. They are going to kill me again!"

You ever watch/hear any Bill Hicks stand up comedy Mol? What you typed there is straight out of one of his acts. :)

[Prudence Rose]

I think that even though the birth and death and ressurection where important, I would rather study the life of Jesus, because that itself was teh most important, at least in my opinion.

[Prudence Rose]

also, that is a rather good point Traknavar, I will wonder about that now.