Retrograde Saturn 8th House

[business voodoo]

treading water in pisces of all things ...

ok ... my personal blind spot ... any thoughts and ideas about retrograde saturn in the 8th house are greatly appreciated ...

if you want to get jiggy with it, it opposes my mercury (2nd/virgo) and trines my mars (4th/intercepted scorpio) ... now you see why its so blinding.

much thanks ...
:fpraise:

[KEishin]

Well don't take this the wrong way but Saturn in the 8th has always come across as inhibited to me, usually based on irrational fears of some sort. Especially if the Moon and Venus are afflicted.

I highly recommend Liz Greene's "Saturn: A New Look at an Old Devil" for further reading.

[business voodoo]

thanks ... i completely feel that part of me (which i know goes back to the 4th house ancestery/root heritage) ... yes, i've read greene's book on saturn. thankfully, moon and venus are ok ... well, except for uranus retrograding over my moon for the past year+!! (but that's another story!) ... i suppose i'm still trying to synthesize the retrograde saturn with the traditional psychological saturn in the 8th ...
thanks again.
peace & harmony,
elaine
'freedom must be exercised to stay in shape!'

[KEishin]

i suppose i'm still trying to synthesize the retrograde saturn with the traditional psychological saturn in the 8th ...
Ah, I see what you were asking now.
I tell people that Rx are like having the energy of the planet turn inward in the psyche. For exampole Pluto Rx people tend to work on inner transformation rather than outer as a direct Pluto would suggest. So Saturn Rx tends to seek a different sort of authority and gains more through the process of seeking and the reuslting obstacles. Things that take others almost no effort can be excruciatingly slow for Saturn Rx folk.

But it really depends on the aspects to Saturn and its dispositor to say how and where that plays out.

[business voodoo]

first, i want to say how much i appreciate your astrological vision ... i come at astrology so abstractly, your way of seeing the symbols is incredibly insightful to me. thank you.

just fyi, dispositer, jupiter 12th house, conjunct asc & venus rx all in leo, co-ruler, libra neptune (conjunct IC square its co-ruler/asc/venus) is hanging out with the mars who is squaring saturn in that 4th house ... not to mention, saturn is about to pass over the jupiter/asc/venus, rx over it and back again within the year ... :awilly: ... NO, nothing is ever 'easy', but usually once i get it, i got it completely.

first, on the retrogrades, i received great help from both erin sullivan's rx planet book as well as joanne wickenburg's book on interceptions/rx planets ...

superior planet rx, e.g., saturn, positioned so that sun (ego/self) is separated from saturn by the earth ... therefore the process of reflection is different than say the mercury rx process where sun & mercury conjoin to look at the earth together. so the saturn rx sun looks to the earth/circumstances for the information necessary and it is separated from the part of itself that is its structure ... the earth is in the way, so to speak. (hence, your comment on the difficulty, i suspect.)

i agree it must look to alternative authority, and i believe it must be a self (sun) based structure based on its reflection of the earth ... or circumstances. if one is able to create the self-structure considering society's structure, the obstacles and structure of society become stepping stones and saturn rx should be able to leap small buildings in a single bound. but rarely is that way of looking at society's structure reinforced, especially in young children. 'do what i say', 'be seen and not heard', 'follow the rules', etc., etc.

so i am dealing with that, i suppose, although the only way i have been able to relate it to the 8th house, is as it opposes the 2nd house, in terms of 'other people's values'. e.g., dream meditation the other night, i was given a dream where i was visiting a friend and had gone to take a nap. i awoke in time to hear the husband say to the wife, 'they come over here and go to sleep, what's that about?' ... i instantly woke from the dream, and the only thing i could feel is why is me taking a nap a problem after i travelled all the way there? other people's values, people talking behind the back (8th house secrets), etc. i would love to see if you have any further insights to the variety of areas the 8th house represents.

to relate it to the mythology, when gaia empowered kronus to sever ouranus from her ... or completely destroy the structure and the separation of the heaven's from the earth, kronus not only secured the safety of gaia & offspring, but empowered himself as well. not that he didn't later mirror his father's structure/cycle by consuming his own children ... i believe the severing aspect relates to the rx saturn process ... seeing activities on earth, self-empowered to effect a change of the structure, and then reestablishing a self-designed structure. curious to hear your thoughts on the mythology of it all as well.

oh i wish i remembered more of my childhood so i could recall the last time i went through this at age 10!!!!

anyway ... thanks again ...

[KEishin]

first, i want to say how much i appreciate your astrological vision ... i come at astrology so abstractly, your way of seeing the symbols is incredibly insightful to me. thank you. You're welcome!

first, on the retrogrades, i received great help from both erin sullivan's rx planet book as well as joanne wickenburg's book on interceptions/rx planets ... I've not read the Wickenburg book, but I'm greatly impressed as well by Erin Sullivan's stuff. Martin Schulmann did some nice stuff on Retrogrades in the late seventies, but it was very Neptune-y and free flowing; not big on details. Some like that, some don't.

saturn rx sun looks to the earth/circumstances for the information necessary and it is separated from the part of itself that is its structure ... the earth is in the way, so to speak. (hence, your comment on the difficulty, i suspect.) I like the visual . . . sums it up nicely. With an absence of structure Saturn tries to control what it doesn't understand and ends up with topics that most of us have difficulty controlling all at the same time!

i would love to see if you have any further insights to the variety of areas the 8th house represents Think about what the 8H is - sex, death, taxes, resurrection, other people's stuff, etc. It's very equal opportunity; all have equal importance and help us grow in their own ways. Saturn wants to control, so what do you think it wants to control most in your case? For me I look at all the water houses as ending houses. 4th is the end of childhood, the 8th the end of societal stuff, the 12th transcendence of life. The 8th is where we take all the crap we are told we "must" and "shouldn't" do, stuff that we are ashamed of, mix all together, add the eye o'newt and wait for it to bubble over. We mix it together in a crucible and work through what we decide is not Who We Are and keep the rest. Once free of the old rules holding us back we are able to progress with renewed understandings to the concepts of the ninth - freedom, learning, higher thought, etc.

I've personally known one other person with a rough Saturn in the 8th. It was in Virgo (can we say inhibited?), squared Venus, quinx the Moon and quinx Vesta. He had serious issues with passion, both expressing it and dealing it with it once it came out. That Vesta/Virgo mix made him *very* scared of romantic encounters, though he had no lack of willing volunteers in that area. It was more he could go only so far in the courtship process before Saturn stopped the bus and said "everybody off." He told me he felt unable to let go and truly trust other people, so he tried to control that area of his life. Coincendentally enough he was a high finance consultant. :)

to relate it to the mythology, when gaia empowered kronus to sever ouranus from her ... or completely destroy the structure and the separation of the heaven's from the earth . . .<snip> i believe the severing aspect relates to the rx saturn process ... seeing activities on earth, self-empowered to effect a change of the structure, and then reestablishing a self-designed structure. curious to hear your thoughts on the mythology of it all as well. Did Kronos/Saturn not destroy structure as much as establish a new one? That's always been my take. Its funny - Greek myth sees Kronos more as a whirlwind of destruction than the establisher of order that his Roman counterpart became. Though I think you hit it right on the head with "reestablishing a self-designed structure." Unlike Uranus who comes in , blows the place up and moves on his way, Saturn wants to help you rebuild after he's blown your life up, all the while saying "I'm doing this for your own good."

[business voodoo]

i really appreciate both of those writers ... wickenburg's skinny book is packed with 'bottom line' information and i love sullivan's comprehensive knowledge ...

Saturn wants to control, so what do you think it wants to control most in your case? For me I look at all the water houses as ending houses. 4th is the end of childhood, the 8th the end of societal stuff, the 12th transcendence of life. The 8th is where we take all the crap we are told we "must" and "shouldn't" do, stuff that we are ashamed of, mix all together, add the eye o'newt and wait for it to bubble over. We mix it together in a crucible and work through what we decide is not Who We Are and keep the rest. Once free of the old rules holding us back we are able to progress with renewed understandings to the concepts of the ninth - freedom, learning, higher thought, etc.

you said a mouthful ... i may have to digest that for a day ... thanks for reminding me about the 4-8-12 house connection, that gives lots of clarity as to this year's transits affecting those houses (november should be a most interesting month for me!). i actually think saturn is working on all the areas at once ... sex ... march was a doosey on that tip; death ... well, that's been around too (april and december are the months for that); rules ... never, ever been good with those ... however, what i think this is all about is those 'rules' you talk about ... thanks. what has been interesting is the more and more i have been consciously detatching from the rules, the less and less the 'rules' come up and are just non-issues -- don't expect them, and they won't be there.

november will definitely be interesting!!! now i'm beginning to see the correlation between these transits and my goal of doing some astral travel by the time i'm 40 ... that's what i think saturn is working on mostly ... interesting you mentioned resurrection ... an interesting work that has no english equivalent for its root of 'surrection'; been studying that lately too.

many thanks ... a lot of information there, you synthesize and bring it down to sea level very well. :fpraise: and, please let me know if you have a blind spot/white rabbit you want me to look at ... besides my jupiter/asc/venus sandwich, i'm one of those pluto/sun/uranus sandwich conjunction people, so you know i'll come at it from a direction you may not expect ...:cheers:

[business voodoo]

Unlike Uranus who comes in , blows the place up and moves on his way, Saturn wants to help you rebuild after he's blown your life up, all the while saying "I'm doing this for your own good."

... but i think saturn only does it 'for your own good' initially perhaps because he agreed to do it for you (e.g. in concert with gaia), but then it becomes self-serving when fear and insecurity creeps in ... and the self-destruct clock starts ticking ... and then his head needs to be popped open. what a cycle. interesting when thinking about the co-rulership of the aquarian age ... two completely patriarchial system rulers in which us versus them is the central theme. things that make you go hmmmm when your eyes start crossing as you type! :spinner:

buenos noches!