Do you raise your athame in ritual?

[CelticMoon11]

I was reading a site and talking to a few people and there seems to be a new trend of 'not raising your athame' because it's a 'commanding' tool and rude so instead you should use your wand because its an 'asking' tool

Personally I've never had a problem and don't see raising my athame as the equivalent of raising my finger, although I can see (sort of) the theory behind it (the commanding part not the rude part), I PERSONALLY don't think it's relevant and I PERSONALLY won't be changing what I do. How can a tool dedicated to Their service be rude to use? Anyways that's my view, each to their own whatever makes people happy :). What do you think?

[CelticMoon11]

And another thing! :lol: (Yes I'm still going :p) Do you use a blunt athame? I believe that such a tool is pretty useless if you believe it represents your will then doesn't it say you're will is pretty blunt? :p I don't think that a tool that isn't practicle and useful, especially a blade, would have been used by people way back when so why the sudden urge for useless tools?

Eh, I'll take my leave, sorry if my sentences don't make sense or my spelling is blah this is my second fishbowl (brandy glass) :lol:

[Mouse]

:lol:

I raise my athame. I can't see why not but then, I no-longer believe that the athame commands while the wand asks. I used to, before I figured out what the difference between the athame and wand actually is, because I couldn't understand why a person would have two tools for the same thing and "command vs. ask" was the best answer I got for a long time.

I think this theory (and it's a new one to me too) might come from the "drawing down the moon" ritual. In that you use the wand to "ask" the goddess to enter the priestess, rather than the athame, so you dont appear rude/disrespectful.
I'd like to know how the elementals are supposed to enter the circle if you don't cut a portal for them though!

My athame is kinda blunt, not because I want it to be, but because bronze doesn't hold an edge very well. *pout* Can't have everything I guess. I'm a firm believer in sharp athames. It's a knife not a letter opener, ya know?

[Tarbh Nathroch]

Mine was sharp when I used one.

I was always aware of where the blade was pointing now that I think back, always a little angled… but that was more of a conditioning thing than a active choice about ritual. I’ve been doing martial arts for so long its just ingrained in my mussels to never point any of a sharp edge toward anyone, its just disrespectful to a superior and a threat to a peer.

So I do see their angle but this is the first I’ve heard of it.

[Amythyst]

Yes, I raise my athame. I don't consider it "commanding" or rude, I consider it a source of power, and the power is directed where and when I want it when I raise it.

My athame is sharp-- it is a beautiful thrusting dagger with sapphires inlaid in the handle and the metal sheath. As a matter of fact, I love knives! Go figure, don't ask me why. Swords, daggers, hunting knives, you name it.


http://i68.photobucket.com/albums/i19/Amythyst1/Amythystswords6-15-06005.jpg

[CelticMoon11]

If that's your athame I don't want to see the sword :lol:

[Philosophia]

Depending on the ritual, I will raise it. IMO, its an extension of yourself, but I do understand the theory behind it.
I also use a sharp athame. It tends to inscribe a lot easier and flows better.

[Amythyst]

If that's your athame I don't want to see the sword :lol:


No, dear, that's a sword.:lol: And as heavy as it is I wouldn't want to go throwing it around! Thrusting daggers are much smaller...athame size.

[CelticMoon11]

I was going to say! Lifting that to Them upstairs would go through the roof! :lol: its a very beautiful sword :)

[Kendrah]

Yes, I raise my athame up. I use it as a commanding tool but I don't see commanding = rude. I think that's human emotions placed on something that doesn't necessarily fit with human emotions.

And yes, I dull my athame. I don't see it as dulling my will, but rather as keeping it in control. It's a symbolic rep., more the a physical one. Also, in my tradition, drawing blood from a poke or slice of an athame means your will has turned against you and must be destoried. (It's actually a pretty good omen. Most of the people who have turned against whatever coven they were in had their athame's go after them in some shape or form.)

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

My athame is wicked sharp, and has only cut something once, when I dropped it at Ostara and grabbed at it, nicking myself in the process. I view that as more or less an acceptance of me as the athame's owner. I view the sharp edge as a representation of the cutting edge of the intellect, so of course it has to be sharp, as I don't want to be dull-witted.
Also, I think the athame is used to draw the Circle because it temporarily removes the Circle from the mundane world, like a cookie-cutter, and then cuts holes in it so the elemental forces can enter it.

[Malcolm]

nope, I bought mine fully grown...


((ya i know, bad joke...I couldn't resist though))

[MoonDragn]

I think it should be used. You're not asking, you're commanding. You aren't some mamby pamby mouse huddling inside a circle for protection. You drew that circle so you wouldn't hurt anyone else outside!

Take charge and be sharp. Stab hard and fast, hard and... oh never mind got carried away there. You know what I mean :P

[CelticMoon11]

Yes, I raise my athame up. I use it as a commanding tool but I don't see commanding = rude. I think that's human emotions placed on something that doesn't necessarily fit with human emotions.

And yes, I dull my athame. I don't see it as dulling my will, but rather as keeping it in control. It's a symbolic rep., more the a physical one. Also, in my tradition, drawing blood from a poke or slice of an athame means your will has turned against you and must be destoried. (It's actually a pretty good omen. Most of the people who have turned against whatever coven they were in had their athame's go after them in some shape or form.)

Mine is sharp as all hell (came that way) but it has never "bled me" its falling against my skin a few times (clumsy me) and hasn't cut me although it did have a thing for trying to stab my toe for a while :lol:

Do you feel it is ok to blood your athame as long as it wasn't the one to draw the blood? I understand where you are coming from with keeping your will in control, but for ME I just can't really fathom and put it into practice, doesn't feel right :). Thank you for sharing that :D

[CelticMoon11]

I think it should be used. You're not asking, you're commanding. You aren't some mamby pamby mouse huddling inside a circle for protection. You drew that circle so you wouldn't hurt anyone else outside!

Not sure about hurting those outside :lol: unless they try and enter unwelcome and then well *insert XIII Jean Grey scene* hahaha

Take charge and be sharp. Stab hard and fast, hard and... oh never mind got carried away there. You know what I mean :P

Are we still talking about Athames here?8O :hehehehe:

[CelticMoon11]

My athame is wicked sharp, and has only cut something once, when I dropped it at Ostara and grabbed at it, nicking myself in the process. I view that as more or less an acceptance of me as the athame's owner. I view the sharp edge as a representation of the cutting edge of the intellect, so of course it has to be sharp, as I don't want to be dull-witted.
Also, I think the athame is used to draw the Circle because it temporarily removes the Circle from the mundane world, like a cookie-cutter, and then cuts holes in it so the elemental forces can enter it.

Exactamaly!! It's like trying to cut steak with a butterknife! Well not literally but I hope you get what I'm saying :lol: I see it as representing my will, my passion, my inner fire and energy, and trust me it's not dull I'm a red head for a reason *hides bottle of hair dye* :D But seriously though I don't see how a dull blade can either represent your inner flame and passion (if you see it as representing fire) or your intellect (air), which like you said is like saying your dull-witted.

[CelticMoon11]

:lol:

I raise my athame. I can't see why not but then, I no-longer believe that the athame commands while the wand asks. I used to, before I figured out what the difference between the athame and wand actually is, because I couldn't understand why a person would have two tools for the same thing and "command vs. ask" was the best answer I got for a long time.

:lol: *points wand at Miri* I'm ASKING you if you'd explain your take on what each actually does in your experience :lol: :)

I think this theory (and it's a new one to me too) might come from the "drawing down the moon" ritual. In that you use the wand to "ask" the goddess to enter the priestess, rather than the athame, so you dont appear rude/disrespectful.
I'd like to know how the elementals are supposed to enter the circle if you don't cut a portal for them though!

Yes I can see where the idea would have sprung from, theres a difference though between asking them upstairs for some assistance and asking to have the divine ENTER you :lol: (just making a general statement I know you know that :D). I'm sure you could try and hack a hole for them 8O

My athame is kinda blunt, not because I want it to be, but because bronze doesn't hold an edge very well. *pout* Can't have everything I guess. I'm a firm believer in sharp athames. It's a knife not a letter opener, ya know?

Yes! Great point! And I mean while letter openers can be helpful :lol: it's NOT what it's designed to be.

[cheddarsox]

a ritual ain't much of a ritual if a few athames don't get raised...raise that male energy! I got to feel it if I am going to believe it!

I guess those weren't the athames you were talking about...but...am I right fellas? or am I right....


Will somebody please say Ah...MEN!

OK, sorry, please return to your originally scheduled thread.


cheddar:shhhh:

[Mouse]

:lol: *points wand at Miri* I'm ASKING you if you'd explain your take on what each actually does in your experience :lol: :)

Uh but you know I'm not alowed to say! It'd take the fun out of finding out for yourself. What Silverfire Darkmoon said come very very close though, so just think on what he said for a while and you'll have a light bulb moment. :idea:

I'm willing to say that what is written in most pagan/wiccan books is wrong and that if you start asking serious questions about both the athame and the wand you'll find answers much quicker than asking me. (and you'll get there quicker than I did, because you're a smart cookie)
Questions like:
What is the athame made out of?
What is the wand made out of?
Where do these materials come from?
Why those materials and not something else?
The wand is similar to a phalis, why?
Why does it make sence for light/energy to "shoot" out the end of your athame to draw a circle?
Why can't you make that energy more commanding or more asking yourself rather than useing two seperate tools?
If you saw an athame for the first time, and were not pagan, what do you think it would be?

Yes I can see where the idea would have sprung from, theres a difference though between asking them upstairs for some assistance and asking to have the divine ENTER you :lol: (just making a general statement I know you know that :D). I'm sure you could try and hack a hole for them 8O

What I mean is you dont (or I've never met a pagan who does) open a door for them upstairs in the same way you would for the elemental of earth. You don't need to. If they want to enter a temple dedicated to them, then they are comming in - end of story. But I think because when you do ask them to enter a physical body you use a wand people have caught onto that and gone "oh no! we dont want to disrespect the elementals either!" and they've switched over. But let's look at that really... is it a good idea to be touching the high priestess's body with a sharp athame? I think not. Perhaps the wand is just safer, and thats the real story behind it. :lol: I might be waaaay off with this one though.

Yes! Great point! And I mean while letter openers can be helpful :lol: it's NOT what it's designed to be.

That's right, lol. My first athame was actually a letter opener, but I felt like an idiot so I stole a kitchen kinfe instead!
You can charge your athame to be "sharper" against energy/astral type stuffs, but I've not tried it yet. It's a good theory on paper though!

[Mouse]

a ritual ain't much of a ritual if a few athames don't get raised...raise that male energy! I got to feel it if I am going to believe it!

I guess those weren't the athames you were talking about...but...am I right fellas? or am I right....


Will somebody please say Ah...MEN!

OK, sorry, please return to your originally scheduled thread.


cheddar:shhhh:

*laughs*:clapping:
Well said!

[Cerulean_damselfly]

Second question first:

Do you use a blunt athame? I believe that such a tool is pretty useless if you believe it represents your will then doesn't it say you're will is pretty blunt? I don't think that a tool that isn't practicle and useful, especially a blade, would have been used by people way back when so why the sudden urge for useless tools?
--------------------------------------------------
The second is a very interesting question and I re-examined some of the items that I use. In my former posts I say the athames that I use are dull, but what I saw at the time is they aren't effective cutting tools that leave clean edges as some of my modern tools designed for cutting paper, food, etc. So I said they were dull.

However I can see now, they are as sharp as my woodcarving tools, the edges come to a point, so they can definitely do damage or slice. The blades of what I have come to a sharp point that could poke holes in things fairly easily.

I'll have to shift or modify how I describe the athames I have.

----------------------------------------------------------

In terms of your first question, what you heard about using a wand instead of an athame is very new to me. I'm still working at learning and making wands and also, proper athame use.

Thanks for your question!

Cerulean_Damselfly

[maphdet]

I raise my Athame and I ahve been known to raise my finger to! :D

[Silverfire Darkmoon]

Let's not forget that the wand is less threatening than an athame, which is why you would use it when calling the Gods - waving a sharp and pointy knife at them is rude, no? Plus, the wand is more a conduit for energy. It directs it where you want it to go, and adding a Shiny Thing (crystal) to the end could well amplify / modify the type of energy, which is why you can make a love wand with a rose quartz tip, a Fire wand with an obsidian tip, a cursing wand with a nice pointy blackthorn thorn at the business end, etc.

[Morgandria]

We call our quarters with the athame. We don't use a wand or an athame to invoke the Gods.

[CelticMoon11]

Do u use a wand at all Morgandria?

[Morgandria]

No, although I make my own. I'm sure there are times I might use a wand in the future, but I haven't for years.

[Kendrah]

Mine is sharp as all hell (came that way) but it has never "bled me" its falling against my skin a few times (clumsy me) and hasn't cut me although it did have a thing for trying to stab my toe for a while :lol:

Do you feel it is ok to blood your athame as long as it wasn't the one to draw the blood? I understand where you are coming from with keeping your will in control, but for ME I just can't really fathom and put it into practice, doesn't feel right :). Thank you for sharing that :D

Well, our ways aren't for everyone. You also have to understand that I work with anywhere from five to thirteen people in a small room doing circles, while the first times you've been clumsy are just that, there is a great chance for me to pain someone in my situation.

When we first get our athame, we do bleed on it as part of the process. It just can't draw blood.

[CelticMoon11]

Well, our ways aren't for everyone. You also have to understand that I work with anywhere from five to thirteen people in a small room doing circles, while the first times you've been clumsy are just that, there is a great chance for me to pain someone in my situation.

When we first get our athame, we do bleed on it as part of the process. It just can't draw blood.

Ohhh I see :) Yes I can imagine with a large amount of people all with stabby objects in a closed in space wouldn't be very safe :lol: I work solitary or with one other usually so that doesn't really become a concern of mine but it doesn't take a genius to fathom how dangerous a situation yours could become.

I do agree on bleeding on the athame but it not being the one to do the initial cut :) Do you work solitary as well as a coven environment?

EDIT: Mangey spelling

[CelticMoon11]

No, although I make my own. I'm sure there are times I might use a wand in the future, but I haven't for years.

Do you make 'desposable' wands? Or just don't think you'll use them so only make one when you need it? Or.....other? lol, the infamous 'other'

[Morgandria]

I'm an artist and a crafter. Sometimes I see pieces of wood, and they speak 'wand' to me. My family is a family of carvers - I('m not really surprised the wood does this. My grandfather carved decoys - so do some of his sons, and my brother has also taken up the hobby. I see wand instead. My uncle sees spoons, sometimes. It's a quirk, I guess.

I probably have about 12 wands, currently. These are wands I've made for specific deities or purposes. Sometimes I make them, and then find they are called to other people. I gift them, if I know who it is, and if I don't they'll find me and claim it for themselves. They're certainly not disposable. I treat them as functional art and offerings.

I have used them for magical purposes before, but not within my current coven experience, and I have never seen a wand used by this coven either, in the 5 years I have known them and circled with them. It's immaterial to me, since I have not earned the right to carry an athame or a wand in ritual yet anyway.

When it comes right down to it, my athame is my preferred expression of my Will in ritual; wands I view more as artwork.