The Urban Gods!

[MacMorrighan]

Hey guys, I am currently researching unique Urban-Deities. So, I was wondering if anyone knows of any other than those that follow, whom they have seen mentioned either on-line, or (preferribly) in their own local communities, etc.? And, how were they honoured, after the fact? For example, Squat-- Goddess of Parking Spots-- is given a piece of chocolate afterwards... And, I gave Skor jubilant praise after a recent-- albeit expensive-- garage sale find, recently! Although, feel free to discuss how others have honoured the following Ueban Gods, too:

* Asphalta
* Squat
* Skor
* Scram
* Sarge
* Slick
* Screw
* Caffienna

Take care,
Wade MacMorrighan

[Vincent Verthaine]

Hey guys, I am currently researching unique Urban-Deities. So, I was wondering if anyone knows of any other than those that follow, whom they have seen mentioned either on-line, or (preferribly) in their own local communities, etc.? And, how were they honoured, after the fact? For example, Squat-- Goddess of Parking Spots-- is given a piece of chocolate afterwards... And, I gave Skor jubilant praise after a recent-- albeit expensive-- garage sale find, recently! Although, feel free to discuss how others have honoured the following Ueban Gods, too:

* Asphalta
* Squat
* Skor
* Scram
* Sarge
* Slick
* Screw
* Caffienna

Take care,
Wade MacMorrighan

HeyMac-God of Taxi,Limo,and Livery driver.Other was known as "Lord of the Hacks".

[dragoncrone]

Also known as the Road Trip Goddess, or She Who Provides Tire Chains. Most often worshipped in areas experiencing heavy snowfall, or living near snow in winter.
Rather Buddha-like, she sits patiently until summoned.

[Malcolm]

Neonia~goddes of bar signs, and all things that give of a sickly glow.

[Morr]

Its funny... This new Urban Gods thing is difficult for me to comprehend.

But then again I am a Reconstructionist, so I stick with the Ancient Gods.


Just my 2 cents.

[Cerulean_damselfly]

While I thought you might be only doing Western gods, I read Lacafardio Hearn's excerpt in regards to Jizo circa 1894:

http://www.fullbooks.com/Glimpses-of-an-Unfamiliar-Japan4.html

--it's travelled from being a historical male bodhisattva to a modern 'god' that sometimes appears on crossroads and some temples, seems to have become more common as a protector of children after Japanese were Westernized.

http://www.sydney.au.emb-japan.go.jp/Culture/Jizo%20&%20Daruma.htm

In some post-modern times, the Jizo tributes and offerings from those who are mourning children are said to be influenced by the Mahayana Buddhist tradition and Japanese Zen. The use of this deity among parents is more modern.

The book that researched this is Jizo Bodhisattva: Guardian of Children, Travellers and Other Voyagers, by Jan Chozen Bays, copyright 2002.

If you are only focusing on English-speaking countries, my apologies.

Cerulean_Damselfly



http://www.googlism.com/what_is/j/jizo/

[Vincent Verthaine]

Its funny... This new Urban Gods thing is difficult for me to comprehend.

But then again I am a Reconstructionist, so I stick with the Ancient Gods.


Just my 2 cents.
I'm just the opposite.

I can never understand why it's ok for the "Ancients" to create gods,but if people like us discordians,etc create new gods,we get those funny looks by the more "serious minded pagans"?

We all know that look.
The look that says "if you don't worship the gods I approve of,you are not really a pagan".
That look.

And lets not pretend it doesn't happen,because we all know it does.

Just something I've always wondered.
Why are those who worship the Ancient Gods seem to get more respect then those who worship the New Gods?

[Morr]

I'm just the opposite.

I can never understand why it's ok for the "Ancients" to create gods,but if people like us discordians,etc create new gods,we get those funny looks by the more "serious minded pagans"?

We all know that look.
The look that says "if you don't worship the gods I approve of,you are not really a pagan".
That look.

And lets not pretend it doesn't happen,because we all know it does.

Just something I've always wondered.
Why are those who worship the Ancient Gods seem to get more respect then those who worship the New Gods?

I'm a reconstructionist. My religion is based on looking to the past and the Ancient Celtic civilization.

Its just the way I see it. Its what feels right for me.

I also dont think the ancients woke up one day and decided they'll make up some random God because they felt like it.

If my laptop gives me crap, I'll yell at it to stop doing it. I wont make up Laptopa Goddess of laptops and ask her to make my laptop stop giving me problems.

*shrugs*

Just my two cents, again.

I am not looking to argue. And really, whatever floats your boat. I am not judging anyone. No need to turn this into an argument or even a debate.

It doesnt work for me, but if it works for someone else -- By all means they should pursue it.

[David19]

I'm a reconstructionist. My religion is based on looking to the past and the Ancient Celtic civilization.

Its just the way I see it. Its what feels right for me.

I also dont think the ancients woke up one day and decided they'll make up some random God because they felt like it.

If my laptop gives me crap, I'll yell at it to stop doing it. I wont make up Laptopa Goddess of laptops and ask her to make my laptop stop giving me problems.

*shrugs*

Just my two cents, again.

I am not looking to argue. And really, whatever floats your boat. I am not judging anyone. No need to turn this into an argument or even a debate.

It doesnt work for me, but if it works for someone else -- By all means they should pursue it.

I agree with you, but then i'm a recon too (although i just haven't found the 'exact' path for me yet).

[Arion]

I'm a reconstructionist. My religion is based on looking to the past and the Ancient Celtic civilization.

Its just the way I see it. Its what feels right for me.

I also dont think the ancients woke up one day and decided they'll make up some random God because they felt like it.

If my laptop gives me crap, I'll yell at it to stop doing it. I wont make up Laptopa Goddess of laptops and ask her to make my laptop stop giving me problems.

*shrugs*

Just my two cents, again.

I am not looking to argue. And really, whatever floats your boat. I am not judging anyone. No need to turn this into an argument or even a debate.

It doesnt work for me, but if it works for someone else -- By all means they should pursue it.
I agree with you, I think that the ancient gods are real energies that the ancients discovered and named, not some random, made-up entities based on various everyday things. I think we as humans are the urban gods, since all these modern inventions are our own creations. If I have a problem with my computer, I don't pray to a god, I take it into the shop or call customer service for help. The technicians are the urban gods.

[skilly-nilly]

I'm a reconstructionist. My religion is based on looking to the past and the Ancient Celtic civilization.

Its just the way I see it. Its what feels right for me.

I also dont think the ancients woke up one day and decided they'll make up some random God because they felt like it.
whynot? You just woke up one day and decided you were Irish.

If my laptop gives me crap, I'll yell at it to stop doing it. I wont make up Laptopa Goddess of laptops and ask her to make my laptop stop giving me problems.




I disagree. I, too, am an Irish Reconstructionist, but I am a sociological reconstructionist rather than an archeological one. For example,one can debate archeologically whether or not the Ancient Irish did/didnot celebrate mid-summerandwinter or one can reason sociologically from the actuality that the Irish are very given to ritualizing behaviors (superstition-ridden is how it looks from the outside) and so in all probability celebrated everything possible.

This propensity towards ritualizing is a universal Irish trait as well as, in (imo) a clear referental to the Brehon Laws and Druidry, the tendancy to structure 'life' in a very layered and organized way. Read folklore rather than God-checker----the Irish had/have ritual behaviors about opening umbrellas, spilling salt, which foot you enter a home on, smooring, saining, bread-making, pre-drink toasting, what colour you should/should not wear.....everything!
So (still imo) if you had an Ancient Irish Person driving to work and the light didn't turn yellow until they were in the intersection they would kiss their fingertips and tap them on the roof of the car in honour of Long Yellow, the Traffic Light God just like I do.

As well, the Ancient Irish (as per folklore) had a local/universal hierarchy firmly in place. There are The Shining Ones, but there are also the mid-level and exclusively local Beings as well. Look at the holy wells/springs/pools, the holed stones, the menhirs and henges, the cloutie trees-----these are all explained as having individual power, with individual folklore backing them up. So when you went to your local well, tree, menhir you entered into communication with your local Spirit. If you went somewhere else you would expect to introduce yourself to the locals there.

I, like many moderns, live in a city so I have intersections, parks, and traffic lights instead of wells and menhirs but its just more of a muchness, in my view.

You identify yourself as a dedicant of The Morrigan--I am also dedicated to one of the Great Goddesses but I don't believe that She to me nor The Morrigan to you shadow us around in daily life, picking up after us. It's the little local wights and beings, the ones that are tied into daily life and the local spots that are here-and-now. Just as the Ancients, I live in a house and, as head of household, part of my responsibility is making sure things run smoothly. So I buy groceries, pay bills, feed the family but I also Speak to the trees in my yard, grow nature-replenishing and native plants, and have a hob-house and make offerings to the considerate Spirit Beings that assist me in daily life.

I don't think we "make up" Gods and Goddesses, I think we call them in. Long Yellow (the previously mentioned Traffic God) hears people pleading for the light not to change, and decides (all on his own get-go) to undertake the position. Why? Because He can. What was he doing up to now? Whatever He felt like--perhaps drinking Guinness.
No, seriously, if the Gods live in the Timeless Land then the passage of time in the here-and-now is inconsequential. Long Yellow isn't new, He just wasn't here until recently; He's just as old as Anyone Else.

[Ben Gruagach]

The Hindus in India don't seem to have a problem with "discovering" or naming new deities to fit appropriate needs as they arise. In the past few decades they've started acknowledging a goddess who deals with AIDS.

Here's a news article about Her (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/545405.stm).

And somehow I doubt this is a new trend for Hindus, one of the oldest uninterrupted polytheistic religions in existence.

Edited to add: Here's another article about the news AIDS goddess in India. (http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2000/02.24/AIDS.html)

[MacMorrighan]

I'm a reconstructionist. My religion is based on looking to the past and the Ancient Celtic civilization.

Hey, me too! Group hug! Well...I am, to ane xtent, anyway. Afetr all, I consider myself first, and formost, a Witch, but base my Priesthood around Gaelic Reconstructionism.

[Morr]

I disagree. I, too, am an Irish Reconstructionist, but I am a sociological reconstructionist rather than an archeological one. For example,one can debate archeologically whether or not the Ancient Irish did/didnot celebrate mid-summerandwinter or one can reason sociologically from the actuality that the Irish are very given to ritualizing behaviors (superstition-ridden is how it looks from the outside) and so in all probability celebrated everything possible.

This propensity towards ritualizing is a universal Irish trait as well as, in (imo) a clear referental to the Brehon Laws and Druidry, the tendancy to structure 'life' in a very layered and organized way. Read folklore rather than God-checker----the Irish had/have ritual behaviors about opening umbrellas, spilling salt, which foot you enter a home on, smooring, saining, bread-making, pre-drink toasting, what colour you should/should not wear.....everything!
So (still imo) if you had an Ancient Irish Person driving to work and the light didn't turn yellow until they were in the intersection they would kiss their fingertips and tap them on the roof of the car in honour of Long Yellow, the Traffic Light God just like I do.

As well, the Ancient Irish (as per folklore) had a local/universal hierarchy firmly in place. There are The Shining Ones, but there are also the mid-level and exclusively local Beings as well. Look at the holy wells/springs/pools, the holed stones, the menhirs and henges, the cloutie trees-----these are all explained as having individual power, with individual folklore backing them up. So when you went to your local well, tree, menhir you entered into communication with your local Spirit. If you went somewhere else you would expect to introduce yourself to the locals there.

I, like many moderns, live in a city so I have intersections, parks, and traffic lights instead of wells and menhirs but its just more of a muchness, in my view.

You identify yourself as a dedicant of The Morrigan--I am also dedicated to one of the Great Goddesses but I don't believe that She to me nor The Morrigan to you shadow us around in daily life, picking up after us. It's the little local wights and beings, the ones that are tied into daily life and the local spots that are here-and-now. Just as the Ancients, I live in a house and, as head of household, part of my responsibility is making sure things run smoothly. So I buy groceries, pay bills, feed the family but I also Speak to the trees in my yard, grow nature-replenishing and native plants, and have a hob-house and make offerings to the considerate Spirit Beings that assist me in daily life.

I don't think we "make up" Gods and Goddesses, I think we call them in. Long Yellow (the previously mentioned Traffic God) hears people pleading for the light not to change, and decides (all on his own get-go) to undertake the position. Why? Because He can. What was he doing up to now? Whatever He felt like--perhaps drinking Guinness.
No, seriously, if the Gods live in the Timeless Land then the passage of time in the here-and-now is inconsequential. Long Yellow isn't new, He just wasn't here until recently; He's just as old as Anyone Else.



1) I didnt not wake up one day and decide I was Irish.

2) I dont even go to God Checker, I do extensive research.

3) Being rude to me wont get a response from me or a discuission about this. Dont assume you know me or my spirituality, and please dont patronize me.


Thanks.

[skilly-nilly]

1) I didnt not wake up one day and decide I was Irish.

2) I dont even go to God Checker, I do extensive research.

3) Being rude to me wont get a response from me or a discuission about this. Dont assume you know me or my spirituality, and please dont patronize me.


Thanks.

If you look at your previous post:

I'm a reconstructionist. My religion is based on looking to the past and the Ancient Celtic civilization.

Its just the way I see it. Its what feels right for me.

I also dont think the ancients woke up one day and decided they'll make up some random God because they felt like it.

If my laptop gives me crap, I'll yell at it to stop doing it. I wont make up Laptopa Goddess of laptops and ask her to make my laptop stop giving me problems.

*shrugs*

Just my two cents, again.

I am not looking to argue. And really, whatever floats your boat. I am not judging anyone. No need to turn this into an argument or even a debate.

It doesnt work for me, but if it works for someone else -- By all means they should pursue it.


you will see that I used back at you the language you used to the hypothetical Urban God believer.

I meant that remark seriously; if (if I can roughly paraphrase something you posted somewhere else) you can decide to follow an Irish Reconstructionist Path because it is comfortable and 'right' for you without any previous affiliation then you should allow the Urban God believers the same courtesy. If you find the accusation of 'woke up..made up' rude, then you must assume that Urban God believers would find your post the same.

I found the language in your post dismissive-- "whatever floats your boat" and "It doesnt work for me, but if it works for someone else" don't, to me, send a message of "I respect your religion" but something quite different.

Guilty as charged--it was snarky of me to imply that you are flighty about your beliefs. Are you also guilty?

Apart from holding up the mirror of language, I am merely voicing my opinions. As a sociological reconstructionist, I find the insistence on 'the old ways' verrrrrrrrrrry irritating. As I argued previously, there is a heavy voice in folklore about local Spirits and practices so (unless you actually live where Tara was) I believe that Irish Recon must include where you are--it's the 5th direction, the center of the world.

If you include where you are and you live in a city, the Urban Gods work, imo.

The whole post isn't a snark at Morr--
I have treasured opinions about working an ancient belief system in the post-technological world. As I have posted before, although I am deeply interested in what the Ancient Irish did what I am far more interested in is going where they went.

Which I believe to be timeless.

I am not flaming Morr, I am expressing a difference of opinion.

[David19]

I think that some gods are gods of the city (Athene is patron of Athens, a city, there's some Egyptian gods who are patrons of various cites, the Aztec gods are urban in a sense too as the Aztec culture was urban, the Canaanite's and Sumerian's, i think, also were 'urban', etc), but i think maybe there could be some 'new' deities that make themselves known, as i do believe in a multiverse, and, IMO, it's arrogant to assume that the only gods that exist are the ones that have appeared on this plane/realm, i believe that there are gods of other dimensions/planes that have little or nothing to do with this one (it might sound a little 'RPGer', but i think it's true).

I do believe in honouring the land spirits and other spirits and deities that you live it (although i haven't actually practiced it yet).

[sfreyr]

These are the Gods I fear. They are the killers of Gods and magic. Their rise signals the dwindling echos of the ancestors' voices. Believe whatever you like, but you disbelieve in the power of these Gods to your own detriment.

[skilly-nilly]

I think that some gods are gods of the city (Athene is patron of Athens, a city, there's some Egyptian gods who are patrons of various cites, the Aztec gods are urban in a sense too as the Aztec culture was urban, the Canaanite's and Sumerian's, i think, also were 'urban', etc), but i think maybe there could be some 'new' deities that make themselves known, as i do believe in a multiverse, and, IMO, it's arrogant to assume that the only gods that exist are the ones that have appeared on this plane/realm, i believe that there are gods of other dimensions/planes that have little or nothing to do with this one (it might sound a little 'RPGer', but i think it's true).

I do believe in honouring the land spirits and other spirits and deities that you live it (although i haven't actually practiced it yet).


That's a very interesting idea. I hadn't thought of it in that light. The Ancient Irish didn't really have any cities, but they did have Erin (variously spelled), the Soverignity of Ireland.

That's an idea I have thought about---I'm interested in getting a feeling as to whether having a male or a female personification of the country makes a difference in the ethos. I haven't come to any conclusions, mostly due to lack of data. There is Erin, Mother Russia, The Fatherland (don't know the Russian and German names), and Uncle Sam. But what about countries that have 2: John Bull and Britannia?

Still (wrenching myself back on-topic), looking at it in a hierarchical, Brehon-law kind of way in the same way that The Shining Ones looked after the all of Ireland in the old days and the well, stone, and tree Spirits looked after the smaller bits of it one could extrapolate from the Spirit of Canada (The True North) to the City of Ottawa (Spirit of Capital-City Bureauracrocy) to the traffic lights (Long Yellow). Then the next question is how broad is Long Yellow's jurisdiction? One would have to try various locations to see. I know that the traffic light on the corner of Hunt Club and Prince of Wales likes me. Maybe it's like hobs--there is one for everyplace and they intercommunicate.

I'm confidant that the Goddess of Lost Socks is a universal, though.

[David19]

I've also read that countries have totem animals, like the U.S. has the Bald Eagle, Russia has the bear, i think, i'm not sure what England or Ireland's would be though (or Israel, Australia, etc).

[Ben Gruagach]

I've also read that countries have totem animals, like the U.S. has the Bald Eagle, Russia has the bear, i think, i'm not sure what England or Ireland's would be though (or Israel, Australia, etc).

England has the bulldog.

Ireland has always been partial to cows (particularly sacred to Bride) so perhaps they are the totem animal of Ireland.

And as a Canadian I can honestly say our totem animal is the beaver!

[skilly-nilly]

England has the bulldog.

Ireland has always been partial to cows (particularly sacred to Bride) so perhaps they are the totem animal of Ireland.

And as a Canadian I can honestly say our totem animal is the beaver!
Good thought!!

Cows are by defination female, which accords with Erin.

Bulldogs seem masculine to me (although logically I know they come in both sexes). So maybe Britian was female/Britiannia but is now more male/John Bull. Transgendered?

Beavers are kind of neutral, as I see the Personification of The True North.
"Mind yer own bizziness," says the gender-neutral Personification of Canada, "The Soverignity of the Land isn't interested in what yizziz do in the privacy of yer own bedrooms. I don't care!! Get married if yiz want to--just don't make noise in the streets!!! Be polite, harm none."
:lol: :cheers: :reindeer: :spinner: :bundled:

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

I'm confidant that the Goddess of Lost Socks is a universal, though.

Which leads me to wonder, just what does She do with all of them and how do we get them back? Should we make an offering of a sock before tossing them in the wash in hopes that all of them will come back out?

[DandelionDame]

Which leads me to wonder, just what does She do with all of them and how do we get them back? Should we make an offering of a sock before tossing them in the wash in hopes that all of them will come back out?

:lol: That? Is totally worth a try! (Where would you dispose of the sock offering, though?) Mr. Dandy is cursed by the Goddess of Lost Socks, so he may need to do this, and soon.

[Garm]

I whole heartedly aplaud the effort to find and create new gods.

I just find for all pratical purposes they work a like reusable battery that hasn't been left in the charger for long enough.

It can take a while for the force of deity to truly acrue to a nooby.

BTW, of the classical deities I thought that Babalon had been identified as the Matron of urban culture.

[Mòrag Elasaid Ní Dhòmhnaill]

:lol: That? Is totally worth a try! (Where would you dispose of the sock offering, though?) Mr. Dandy is cursed by the Goddess of Lost Socks, so he may need to do this, and soon.

I haven't figured that part out yet. I've been pondering it though. Maybe an offering bin kept in the laundry room. :hrmm:

[skilly-nilly]

Which leads me to wonder, just what does She do with all of them and how do we get them back? Should we make an offering of a sock before tossing them in the wash in hopes that all of them will come back out?


:lol: That? Is totally worth a try! (Where would you dispose of the sock offering, though?) Mr. Dandy is cursed by the Goddess of Lost Socks, so he may need to do this, and soon.


I haven't figured that part out yet. I've been pondering it though. Maybe an offering bin kept in the laundry room. :hrmm:


I believe that the Goddess of Lost Socks is a Personification of Petty Irritations.
I believe that She takes socks pre-emtively and then wards off other, worse things--accidents and the like.

Whats a few socks, eh?

[vulfsung]

Which leads me to wonder, just what does She do with all of them and how do we get them back? Should we make an offering of a sock before tossing them in the wash in hopes that all of them will come back out?

I'm willing to try dang near anything since one of my homespun, crocheted grey angora socks went to the Goddess. I sure would like to have the pair reunited by Winter!! :fpraise:

[skilly-nilly]

I'm willing to try dang near anything since one of my homespun, crocheted grey angora socks went to the Goddess. I sure would like to have the pair reunited by Winter!! :fpraise:


Sadly, Wolfie, I believe that what the Goddess of Lost Socks takes, She keeps.

On the better side, I also think that the really precious socks are taken by the Good Neighbors rather than the Goddess, because the loss of those socks makes the trick funnier for them.

In which case, the charm I wrote for Alice LittleCat might work. Buy a new pair of tiny baby socks and offer them instead:

I can share
Some socks with you.
Put mine back
Here in my shoe.

Good Luck!

[dragoncrone]

I hereby invoke Humoria, Goddess of Light-hearted Whimsy, to tell y'all I think everyone is getting just a tad too serious about this whole thing.

I worship Bast, Ganesha, Buddha and BenTen among others but there's always room for more especially if they help me lighten up through the day.

:boing: :boing: :boing: :boing:

[Shanti]

Real gods? WTF is that? One..no one can prove any god!!! And, I dont care how long they have been acknowledged. They are only real to the believer!

Two, some people believe 'all' things have spirit..like I believe. And maybe that spirit is a god for some people.

Three, how the heck does anyone know that maybe these modern gods havent always been around waiting for mortal time to catch up?
Time is physical. There is no time like we understand in the non-physical...unless your gods do die!

I think some people here are disrespectful of others perspective.

I see nothing questionable about a belief in urban gods. Heck the urban gods are probably wondering what took so long for people to seek them!!!

I am sorry if people's pompousness or joking has insulted any urban god believers.

The attitudes here just frustrate me.

[Malcolm]

If my laptop gives me crap, I'll yell at it to stop doing it. I wont make up Laptopa Goddess of laptops and ask her to make my laptop stop giving me problems.


I work in IT, trust me...there is a machine godess and she is a fickle B%^ch...but we lover her anyway. :)

[Cerulean_damselfly]

It is wierd a bit to hear about Squat, the parking godling...for years, in my family, we jokingly used a 'jizo' reference, as it's a roadside or crossroads folk deity we heard about...we thought you weren't supposed to talk about it for such things to work.

But Squat or our jizo seems to work in similar ways to putting out a good intention and wishing the car and the occupants leaving will be happy and ready to move on...

Regards,

Cerulean_Damselfly

[Amelserru_halqu]

I was wondering if there is a god of automobiles and human sacrifice gives power to gods, as you know upon violent death all the life energy of the person is instantaneously released, wouldn't the car gods be the most powerful beings ever? I mean they have recieved more sacrifice than even the aztec gods... so I wonder... how powerful would they be?

[vulfsung]

Sadly, Wolfie, I believe that what the Goddess of Lost Socks takes, She keeps.

On the better side, I also think that the really precious socks are taken by the Good Neighbors rather than the Goddess, because the loss of those socks makes the trick funnier for them.

In which case, the charm I wrote for Alice LittleCat might work. Buy a new pair of tiny baby socks and offer them instead:

I can share
Some socks with you.
Put mine back
Here in my shoe.

Good Luck!

I will have to try that! Perhaps making the wee socks from some other homespun yarn will help.

It is my thought that She may have liberated said wonderous sock in an effort to teach me to look after myself a touch more. They were the first thing I have made for myself in quite some time, having been busy Creating for others around me. Or, perhaps I'm thinking too much and She just really liked them(they are warm and wonderful!) :awilly:

Either way, I hope She is enjoying one blessedly warm foot!!

[Garm]

I was wondering if there is a god of automobiles and human sacrifice gives power to gods, as you know upon violent death all the life energy of the person is instantaneously released, wouldn't the car gods be the most powerful beings ever? I mean they have recieved more sacrifice than even the aztec gods... so I wonder... how powerful would they be?


Very.

The vehicular has assumed the power of deity, we are even making war on it's behalf.

And malevelant sorcery as it is actually practiced has a special relationship with this deity. It doesn't matter wether you call Odin, Abergis, Satan or Jumbie the work of inflicting death or serious injury will 9 out 10 times be passed on to GM, Ford, Toyota or Chrysler

[Malcolm]

Garm, I don't think Odin belongs in that list.

[Garm]

Garm, I don't think Odin belongs in that list.

By my understanding if I am employing runes I am drawing upon the power of Odin.

As to calling him personally, well I don't deal with deities that way.

Your objection stands if we want to get into the technical semantics of "call"

The basis of that list is from situations that have been relevant to me IRL, ie, Abergis was the Matron of an XGF who set up a rapist with a car accident while he was on his way to court. While the list is more than just hypothetical I don't mean to imply that there is anything else in common between them.

[Malcolm]

By my understanding if I am employing runes I am drawing upon the power of Odin.

I always thought it was my personal "power".


While the list is more than just hypothetical I don't mean to imply that there is anything else in common between them.

Oh, well...nevermind then. I misunderstood what you were getting at.

[banondraig]

Good thought!!

Cows are by defination female, which accords with Erin.

Bulldogs seem masculine to me (although logically I know they come in both sexes). So maybe Britian was female/Britiannia but is now more male/John Bull. Transgendered?




maybe more of a shift in majority population, from Celtic (feminine, like Ireland), to Germanic (fatherland/Vaterland).

feel free to poke, or drive trucks through, holes in that. :)

[aluokaloo]

Mochana-the uber cool Goddess of Starbucks
Wheelie-God worshipped widely by skaters
Nictickia-God who hawks concert tickets for outrageous prices

[Theres]

http://www.mysticwicks.com/showthread.php?t=157875

[Stoirmeacha]

I am reading many of the posts and wondering exactly WHAT it takes for a being to be a god. Or rather, what do you guys think it takes???
I consider myself a pretty strict Irish Reconstructionist, and my Gods are those of the Ancient Gaelic societies, not the Urban Ones. However I believe that everything has a spirit, even inanimate objects, and I also believe that those objects that do not have a spirit can be imbued with one. In my view, these Urban Gods of the Discordians are spirits, not gods. But that is because they are not my gods. I wonder then, if Discordians believe in spirits? And if the gods to them are the same as the spirits. In my beliefs, there is a clear difference between the gods and the spirits. But what is everyones' definition of a God? I kinda think that the animosities that seem to be among some people in this thread may be because of a misunderstanding as to what it takes to be a diety. To the Discordians there are these Urban gods, but to the Recons here, those gods are just spirits. However, it may also be the same when flipped around.

Note: I am not trying to offend anyone here, so chilax if you find something offensive...

[childofbast]

I disagree. I, too, am an Irish Reconstructionist, but I am a sociological reconstructionist rather than an archeological one. For example,one can debate archeologically whether or not the Ancient Irish did/didnot celebrate mid-summerandwinter or one can reason sociologically from the actuality that the Irish are very given to ritualizing behaviors (superstition-ridden is how it looks from the outside) and so in all probability celebrated everything possible.

This propensity towards ritualizing is a universal Irish trait as well as, in (imo) a clear referental to the Brehon Laws and Druidry, the tendancy to structure 'life' in a very layered and organized way. Read folklore rather than God-checker----the Irish had/have ritual behaviors about opening umbrellas, spilling salt, which foot you enter a home on, smooring, saining, bread-making, pre-drink toasting, what colour you should/should not wear.....everything!
So (still imo) if you had an Ancient Irish Person driving to work and the light didn't turn yellow until they were in the intersection they would kiss their fingertips and tap them on the roof of the car in honour of Long Yellow, the Traffic Light God just like I do.

As well, the Ancient Irish (as per folklore) had a local/universal hierarchy firmly in place. There are The Shining Ones, but there are also the mid-level and exclusively local Beings as well. Look at the holy wells/springs/pools, the holed stones, the menhirs and henges, the cloutie trees-----these are all explained as having individual power, with individual folklore backing them up. So when you went to your local well, tree, menhir you entered into communication with your local Spirit. If you went somewhere else you would expect to introduce yourself to the locals there.

I, like many moderns, live in a city so I have intersections, parks, and traffic lights instead of wells and menhirs but its just more of a muchness, in my view.

You identify yourself as a dedicant of The Morrigan--I am also dedicated to one of the Great Goddesses but I don't believe that She to me nor The Morrigan to you shadow us around in daily life, picking up after us. It's the little local wights and beings, the ones that are tied into daily life and the local spots that are here-and-now. Just as the Ancients, I live in a house and, as head of household, part of my responsibility is making sure things run smoothly. So I buy groceries, pay bills, feed the family but I also Speak to the trees in my yard, grow nature-replenishing and native plants, and have a hob-house and make offerings to the considerate Spirit Beings that assist me in daily life.

I don't think we "make up" Gods and Goddesses, I think we call them in. Long Yellow (the previously mentioned Traffic God) hears people pleading for the light not to change, and decides (all on his own get-go) to undertake the position. Why? Because He can. What was he doing up to now? Whatever He felt like--perhaps drinking Guinness.
No, seriously, if the Gods live in the Timeless Land then the passage of time in the here-and-now is inconsequential. Long Yellow isn't new, He just wasn't here until recently; He's just as old as Anyone Else.


I just wanted to say that I really like your response. It makes a lot of sense. Kudos. :)

[childofbast]

These are the Gods I fear. They are the killers of Gods and magic. Their rise signals the dwindling echos of the ancestors' voices. Believe whatever you like, but you disbelieve in the power of these Gods to your own detriment.


lol I gotta say, they do make me think of <u>American Gods</u>.

[childofbast]

Man, I'm sorry for so many posts in a row...

Anyway, I don't find anything wrong with people honoring/worshiping/ acknowledging urban Gods. There are plenty of people who think I'm wrong for worshiping ancient Gods so it would be terrible of me to look down my nose at others!

And really, our ancestors were developing new technology all the time. Many of these technologies, along the way, became associated with deities. I never really thought about this topic before, but a lot of people have offered some great insights. I especially find the comments about local spirits helpful.

[patch]

Not a fan of it myself.
Not in any way because these gods are new and I only accept credibility if it is old or anything like that.

But because somebody sat, worked out a name and 'invented' this deity. Sure, a deity could rise and fill those shoes. But they might not either.
If a deity had approached a person saying they were associated with parking spaces, then I could understand it a little more.
For me, it's just hard to get my head round as a hard polytheist. I see the gods as decided their own archetypes, not us. So overall, I'd prefer a deity to step up and THEN be named, as oppsed to the other way round.
If anyone has any interesting experiences with these new deities please post!

[Seren_]

I just wanted to say that I really like your response. It makes a lot of sense. Kudos. :)

It makes a lot of sense to me, too. As a recon and a hard polytheist, I have my own views on the gods and how they are to me, but that doesn't mean that it's the only answer. I know what works for me, but that doesn't mean it should for everyone else, and the beliefs I hold now have evolved from what they were when I started out as a pagan. I may disagree with other people, but that doesn't mean they're wrong, because these things are subjective.

The gods as ancient cultures viewed them, in their specific cultural contexts, evolved as those cultures changed. I don't see why it should be any different today. I don't see why there shouldn't be modern gods, urban gods, or whatever. I don't qualify them as 'spirits', I just don't see them as being relevant to me. Until they might say otherwise. They haven't yet, so I continue on my way without being all that bothered by anyone else.

[skilly-nilly]

I'm having trouble seeing these posts as anything but squabbling over word usage. Not that I'm against word-usage quibbles per se, but I don't think they should be mistaken for actual logic neither.

I compressed a little:


I consider myself a pretty strict Irish Reconstructionist, and my Gods are those of the Ancient Gaelic societies, not the Urban Ones... In my view, these Urban Gods of the Discordians are spirits, not gods. But that is because they are not my gods... To the Discordians there are these Urban gods, but to the Recons here, those gods are just spirits. However, it may also be the same when flipped around.


I could be misunderstanding, but it seems that Stoirmeacha is saying that Urban Gods must be spirits because the Urban Gods "are not my gods" but (in all fairness) "it may also be the same when flipped around". So ze seems to be saying that whatever one believes are their beliefs, but not the beliefs of Stoirmeacha.......which isn't much of an argument against the reality of Urban Gods, imo.



But because somebody sat, worked out a name and 'invented' this deity. Sure, a deity could rise and fill those shoes. But they might not either.
If a deity had approached a person saying they were associated with parking spaces, then I could understand it a little more.
For me, it's just hard to get my head round as a hard polytheist. I see the gods as decided their own archetypes, not us. So overall, I'd prefer a deity to step up and THEN be named, as oppsed to the other way round.

Again, this (as an argument against belief in Urban Gods and as a statement) is really unclear.

First of all, there's the argument against sitting; "somebody sat, worked out a name and 'invented' this deity". The gods of traffic lights and parking spaces are best invoked sitting---if you're running yellows and driving around parking lots you'd better be sitting!!

Then there's the recognition argument; "I see the gods as decided their own archetypes". At least I think that's the point, 'archetype' has a very specific meaning and it's not 'what the Deity is in charge of' although this seems to be the poster's usage. Again, I fail to see the point.

If I am wishing for good parking spots and fortuitous light changes and my wishes are answered and, at the same time, I have a world-view that includes Little Mysteries/Local Gods/Land Spirits then I will recognize the good events as under the auspices of Urban Gods.

And if your world-view doesn't include those gods then I'm getting the good parking spaces and you're not, so I'm not going to argue with that!


But I DO argue with the attitude that your Path-Name stands as an argument against my opinions and beliefs:

"I consider myself a pretty strict Irish Reconstructionist, and my Gods are those of the Ancient Gaelic societies"

"For me, it's just hard to get my head round as a hard polytheist."

Like there's some received party line for ReConstructionists and Polytheists. I could see those statements as standing if someone were to argue a world-view of conflation, or one god/many manifestations but not against a many gods belief.

Really, what you're saying here is 'I question your gods because they're not like my gods' but that's silly---no one's gods are exactly like anyone else's.

I'm a "pretty strict Irish Reconstructionist" myself. Research tells us that both pre- and post-conversion Irish had/have a fixed belief in the sacredness of specific landmarks (trees, wells, stones) and in their inhabitance by Spirit (often an extremely specific one) and in the presence of OtherWorldly apertures in exact places.
I'm reconstructing the Ancient Irish Believer who lives in West-End Ottawa and drives to work on Hunt Club.

And then there's the statement "my Gods are those of the Ancient Gaelic societies". The ones of 2,000 odd years ago? The markedly different ones of earlier and later? What about the ones of whom no written record exists? The ones in Connacht or the quite different ones in Lagin?

I find the 'high moral ground' aspect of that statement odd---
you're believing in a God who ate so much that He couldn't have casual sex until He puked but my Gods are just "spirits"???

Or (other poster) "as a hard polytheist" "I'd prefer a deity to step up and THEN be named". Did I miss the memo about changing the definition of hard polytheism?
There's lots of Gods.
Some are about trivial events, some are fairly humorous, some choose modern applications, some are locally situated.
There's lots of Gods.

Only believe in the Ones Who interact with you, that's what I'm doing.

[cesara]

I'm having trouble seeing these posts as anything but squabbling over word usage. Not that I'm against word-usage quibbles per se, but I don't think they should be mistaken for actual logic neither.

I compressed a little:


I could be misunderstanding, but it seems that Stoirmeacha is saying that Urban Gods must be spirits because the Urban Gods "are not my gods" but (in all fairness) "it may also be the same when flipped around". So ze seems to be saying that whatever one believes are their beliefs, but not the beliefs of Stoirmeacha.......which isn't much of an argument against the reality of Urban Gods, imo.



Again, this (as an argument against belief in Urban Gods and as a statement) is really unclear.

First of all, there's the argument against sitting; "somebody sat, worked out a name and 'invented' this deity". The gods of traffic lights and parking spaces are best invoked sitting---if you're running yellows and driving around parking lots you'd better be sitting!!

Then there's the recognition argument; "I see the gods as decided their own archetypes". At least I think that's the point, 'archetype' has a very specific meaning and it's not 'what the Deity is in charge of' although this seems to be the poster's usage. Again, I fail to see the point.

If I am wishing for good parking spots and fortuitous light changes and my wishes are answered and, at the same time, I have a world-view that includes Little Mysteries/Local Gods/Land Spirits then I will recognize the good events as under the auspices of Urban Gods.

And if your world-view doesn't include those gods then I'm getting the good parking spaces and you're not, so I'm not going to argue with that!


But I DO argue with the attitude that your Path-Name stands as an argument against my opinions and beliefs:

"I consider myself a pretty strict Irish Reconstructionist, and my Gods are those of the Ancient Gaelic societies"

"For me, it's just hard to get my head round as a hard polytheist."

Like there's some received party line for ReConstructionists and Polytheists. I could see those statements as standing if someone were to argue a world-view of conflation, or one god/many manifestations but not against a many gods belief.

Really, what you're saying here is 'I question your gods because they're not like my gods' but that's silly---no one's gods are exactly like anyone else's.

I'm a "pretty strict Irish Reconstructionist" myself. Research tells us that both pre- and post-conversion Irish had/have a fixed belief in the sacredness of specific landmarks (trees, wells, stones) and in their inhabitance by Spirit (often an extremely specific one) and in the presence of OtherWorldly apertures in exact places.
I'm reconstructing the Ancient Irish Believer who lives in West-End Ottawa and drives to work on Hunt Club.

And then there's the statement "my Gods are those of the Ancient Gaelic societies". The ones of 2,000 odd years ago? The markedly different ones of earlier and later? What about the ones of whom no written record exists? The ones in Connacht or the quite different ones in Lagin?

I find the 'high moral ground' aspect of that statement odd---
you're believing in a God who ate so much that He couldn't have casual sex until He puked but my Gods are just "spirits"???

Or (other poster) "as a hard polytheist" "I'd prefer a deity to step up and THEN be named". Did I miss the memo about changing the definition of hard polytheism?
There's lots of Gods.
Some are about trivial events, some are fairly humorous, some choose modern applications, some are locally situated.
There's lots of Gods.

Only believe in the Ones Who interact with you, that's what I'm doing.

Hear, hear! Extremely well said!

I am often amused by some "recons" who adamantly claim the 'ancient' gods carry more weight and are, somehow, more legitimate than not-so 'ancient' ones.

In science, in moral paradigms, in moving from a sustenance dependent on hunting and gathering to one of agriculture, and almost every area of social construct, the old ideas are discarded for new, more 'advanced' ones, EXCEPT, in the area of spirituality.

It seems the idea within much of paganism (and specifically, most Recon traditions) is that the older a religion is, the more reliable it is. How did this happen, while, at the same time, many recons accept that other social constructs, including technology and medicine flex and move with new, pioneering ideas?

Why do we reject new ideas in religion in favor of older ones? What makes religion different in that some are holding fast to old, possibly outdated ideas about God?

[mtpathy]

unfortunatley inorder for there to be urban gods or "modern gods" there will probably have to be a religion attached to that pantheon, there lies the problem as supposed "old religions" idiolize the "gods of then" and forgo alltogether the modern day world and the "gods of now".

[cesara]

unfortunatley inorder for there to be urban gods or "modern gods" there will probably have to be a religion attached to that pantheon, there lies the problem as supposed "old religions" idiolize the "gods of then" and forgo alltogether the modern day world and the "gods of now".

So, for a god to exist they must be associated with a religion? How do you know this?

[skilly-nilly]

"old religions" idiolize the "gods of then" and forgo alltogether the modern day world .

Not if they're arguing about it via computer...:lookwhats


Also, if my "religion" is What Is and my "pantheon" is Who Speaks then there already is "a religion attached to that pantheon". If (as well) my referential is the Gods and Lore of Ancient Ireland then I'm an Irish ReConstructionist and a polytheist.

[mtpathy]

So, for a god to exist they must be associated with a religion? How do you know this?

state a god that exists outside of a pantheon and ill say "whos that"? hince the reason...

unfortunatley inorder for there to be urban gods or "modern gods" there will <b>probably</b> have to be a religion attached to that pantheon.

pantheon

noun
1. all the gods of a religion

i know of no god that isnt reflected from self, and manifested through choice, so i neither stated that a god exists within or outside of a pantheon.

[Heart of All]

I know that it's not paganism or polytheism at all, but I would like to put in my two cents on ancient vs. modern and reconstruction.

I was a reconstructionist (Norse) until a couple days ago when it all fell apart for me, largely for the reasons in this thread. I no longer feel that I can worship gods of a people with whom I share no cultural information. The ancients did not live in a city and travel by airplane and learn on the internet. I felt like my life didn't match up, and never would until I lived on a farm and grew my own food. And I'm not in any life position to do so.

Christianity, on the other hand, being a modern religion, changes with the times and the needs of the people who follow it. I believe that Hinduism was also mentioned earlier in this thread. A couple hundred years ago in America, the Christian god was not some all-loving god. He sent most people to hell, and people spent their entire lives worrying about whether or not they would be damned for all eternity. As times changed and comfort and ease became more and more important as technology came around to make comfort easier to get, God became more and more loving, to the point now where most Christians believe that everyone in their group (whether that be church-goers, other evangelicals, monotheists, however they define it) all go to heaven. (I haven't read or studied this correlation, but it makes a lot of sense to me. I do, however, want to qualify that it may not be fact).

Modern pagans live in a world quite different than the one in which the ancients worshiped our gods. Because we have a thousand years or more of broken time, during which so much else has changed, I feel that there is a disconnect that needs to be addressed more than it has. And I think these urban gods are a really wonderful way of addressing that.

[patch]

Skilly-nilly- Please don't get offended by what I say. Especially since you appeared to pick up on grammatical things.

I'm not saying these gods are wrong. I'm saying I find then hard to understand, a person created them and then a deity possibly rose to fill those shoes.
I'd understand it moreso if the deity poked their head round first, THEN a person created the name and mythos.
Because at the moment there is every possibility the go might not be there. See what I'm trying to say?

[rufio]

I know that it's not paganism or polytheism at all, but I would like to put in my two cents on ancient vs. modern and reconstruction.

I was a reconstructionist (Norse) until a couple days ago when it all fell apart for me, largely for the reasons in this thread. I no longer feel that I can worship gods of a people with whom I share no cultural information. The ancients did not live in a city and travel by airplane and learn on the internet. I felt like my life didn't match up, and never would until I lived on a farm and grew my own food. And I'm not in any life position to do so.


I thought reconstructionism was adapting the old to the new. So, you don't worship exactly as the ancients did if you can't, but keep in mind the important parts and go from there.

That does not mean that you can't recognise/worship/believe in a god of computers either.

[S_Wodening]

Modern pagans live in a world quite different than the one in which the ancients worshiped our gods. Because we have a thousand years or more of broken time, during which so much else has changed, I feel that there is a disconnect that needs to be addressed more than it has. And I think these urban gods are a really wonderful way of addressing that.

I am an Anglo-Saxon Heathen Recon, and I do not see the disconnect. After all, the tribal religions of the ancient Germanic peoples existed for thousands of years. During that time there were numerous changes in technology and in society as well. For the Germanic peoples for example, they went from the Bronze to the Iron Age, made improvements in agricultural technology, adapted the use of the runes to represent language, and went from a primarily family based society to one with warbands and guilds. I feel with each of these changes, the Gods changed as well to serve the new needs. And I feel it is no different today. The Gods adapt and change with us. There is no need for newer urban Gods, when the old Gods can fully adapt to face the new needs.

[Garm]

For the Germanic peoples for example, they went from the Bronze to the Iron Age,

That would put the Germanic people rather further back in time than the sources I have been used to seeing

A figure of about 500 BC is commonly given

[skilly-nilly]

i know of no god that isnt reflected from self, and manifested through choice, so i neither stated that a god exists within or outside of a pantheon.

Do you think you could re-state this? As it stands it makes very little sense to me while sounding portentous.
"reflected from self" reflected as in no outside source? the self of the believer or the god?
"manifested through choice" the choice of the god or the mind?
"i neither stated that a god exists within or outside of a pantheon" hello?
It seems possible that you are perhaps saying that the gods are our mind-constructs. But that isn't a counter-argument to people who believe that the Gods exist in Themselves. That's just a my-belief your-belief stand-off.


I no longer feel that I can worship gods of a people with whom I share no cultural information. The ancients did not live in a city and travel by airplane and learn on the internet. I felt like my life didn't match up, and never would until I lived on a farm and grew my own food. And I'm not in any life position to do so.
Because we have a thousand years or more of broken time, during which so much else has changed, I feel that there is a disconnect that needs to be addressed more than it has. And I think these urban gods are a really wonderful way of addressing that.

Like the other responder, I don't feel a disconnect although my world-view differs from hirs. IMO, there's human unchangeables and modern changes:
You don't farm, but someone still grows your food. So the generative and nurturing Gods would still apply.
On the other hand, there's the internet. Perhaps the God of Messages, or of Information Retrieval or of Runes would apply or perhaps SomeOne who finds the internet interesting will step out of the Timeless Land to accept that function---I believe you have to see Who's there.

On the gripping hand, human beings have changed hardly at all since the days of the pillaging Norse, but culture has changed quite a lot. You have to see for yourself where you float.


Skilly-nilly- Please don't get offended by what I say. Especially since you appeared to pick up on grammatical things.

I'm not saying these gods are wrong. I'm saying I find then hard to understand, a person created them and then a deity possibly rose to fill those shoes.
I'd understand it moreso if the deity poked their head round first, THEN a person created the name and mythos.
Because at the moment there is every possibility the go might not be there. See what I'm trying to say?

I hardly ever get offended, and not by people's beliefs (as long as they don't want them to be my beliefs). I think people should believe whatever they do, but also that they should be able to make clear and internally logical statements about their beliefs or be argued with.
I only get offended by factual inexactitude. That is, if you were to make an incorrect statement of fact ('Oaks fruit is apples' 'The Earth is flat' 'Oliver Cromwell had no warts') I would be. So no worries.

I think we disagree on the creative process. You seem to be saying ("a person created them" "a person created the name and mythos") that the creative process is human-driven. Here's where we disagree--I think that the creative process is largely trance-driven. That is, under the auspices of the Gods. I write and I make things quite a lot and I'm rarely wholly in charge of the process; I absolutely see it as a group effort.

As well, I'm a very strict polytheist; really an animist except that I don't make the spirit/gods distinction discussed earlier---I just make a distinction in terms of locality or universality and in power. So my world is full of Beings. I don't see communication with the traffic lights as any different from communication with the crows or the trees---in my world everything communicates.

So when you say "at the moment there is every possibility the go might not be there" I would say 'it is extremely unlikely that the space is empty'. Different world-views is all. If you live in an empty random world then I'm getting the good parking places---I'm ok with that.



The Gods adapt and change with us. There is no need for newer urban Gods, when the old Gods can fully adapt to face the new needs.

I don't think that the Gods change hardly at all, I believe that there's lots of Them so there's always One to fill a new place. jmo, ymmv.

[S_Wodening]

That would put the Germanic people rather further back in time than the sources I have been used to seeing

A figure of about 500 BC is commonly given

From everything I have read the pre-Roman Iron Age did not begin until about 400 or 500 BCE. Which means the Germanic peoples would have existed at the time of transition from Bronze to Iron.

[S_Wodening]

I don't think that the Gods change hardly at all, I believe that there's lots of Them so there's always One to fill a new place. jmo, ymmv.

Well, I think to say that they hardly change at all is to give them lesser abilities than our own. Humans change and adapt with their environment, so I do not see any reason that Gods would not also. This is basically the reasoning I am using.

[cesara]

state a god that exists outside of a pantheon and ill say "whos that"? hince the reason...

unfortunatley inorder for there to be urban gods or "modern gods" there will <b>probably</b> have to be a religion attached to that pantheon.

pantheon

noun
1. all the gods of a religion

i know of no god that isnt reflected from self, and manifested through choice, so i neither stated that a god exists within or outside of a pantheon.

So, in essence, what you are saying is that humans have to know about a God in order for them to exist. I disagree.

[cesara]

I am an Anglo-Saxon Heathen Recon, and I do not see the disconnect. After all, the tribal religions of the ancient Germanic peoples existed for thousands of years. During that time there were numerous changes in technology and in society as well. For the Germanic peoples for example, they went from the Bronze to the Iron Age, made improvements in agricultural technology, adapted the use of the runes to represent language, and went from a primarily family based society to one with warbands and guilds. I feel with each of these changes, the Gods changed as well to serve the new needs. And I feel it is no different today. The Gods adapt and change with us. There is no need for newer urban Gods, when the old Gods can fully adapt to face the new needs.

May I ask, respectfully, then, why hold fast to the term 'Reconstructionalist', if adaptation is at the root of of the practice?

[S_Wodening]

I didn't say adaptation is the root of the practice. I said the Gods adapt.

[Heart of All]

I am an Anglo-Saxon Heathen Recon, and I do not see the disconnect. After all, the tribal religions of the ancient Germanic peoples existed for thousands of years. During that time there were numerous changes in technology and in society as well. For the Germanic peoples for example, they went from the Bronze to the Iron Age, made improvements in agricultural technology, adapted the use of the runes to represent language, and went from a primarily family based society to one with warbands and guilds. I feel with each of these changes, the Gods changed as well to serve the new needs. And I feel it is no different today. The Gods adapt and change with us. There is no need for newer urban Gods, when the old Gods can fully adapt to face the new needs.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. It just wasn't something I was fully capable of doing. And the cultural differences were, for me, insurmountable. There were other reasons as well that I realized it wasn't for me, but I don't want to get too off-topic here discussing whether or not reconstruction is capable of adapting to a modern world because it obviously has for many. Just not me.



I think we disagree on the creative process. You seem to be saying ("a person created them" "a person created the name and mythos") that the creative process is human-driven. Here's where we disagree--I think that the creative process is largely trance-driven. That is, under the auspices of the Gods. I write and I make things quite a lot and I'm rarely wholly in charge of the process; I absolutely see it as a group effort.

So when you say "at the moment there is every possibility the god might not be there" I would say 'it is extremely unlikely that the space is empty'. Different world-views is all. If you live in an empty random world then I'm getting the good parking places---I'm ok with that.

QFT. As a choreographer and (sometimes) poet, I see constantly how what I create becomes more than that which I began creating. I consider choreography to be magic because there is always some unintended perfection hidden within even the simplest composition. And I always agree, to a large extent, with the whole "I am a vessel" artistic thing the romantics have. Sure, I can tell my dancers what to do, but where is that inner perfection really coming from? The gods, I think.

Why should any god not exist? I believe Fiamma said in here somewhere that she views polytheism as a belief that all possible gods may exist. I believe that wholeheartedly.

Furthermore, who's to say that if someone "makes up" a god, and then finds that that god never does what they ask, that the person wouldn't get the message and stop asking that god? Say if Mabel the parking goddess never helped anyone get a spot? I think that, assuming that these created gods, in fact, did not exist, we would have some marker.

[skilly-nilly]

I don't think that the Gods change hardly at all, I believe that there's lots of Them so there's always One to fill a new place. jmo, ymmv.


Well, I think to say that they hardly change at all is to give them lesser abilities than our own. Humans change and adapt with their environment, so I do not see any reason that Gods would not also. This is basically the reasoning I am using.

Either I completely disagree or we're talking about 2 completely different things.

Cultures change, social systems change, acceptable mores change, but the people inside them change not at all. They still want to feel safe, have enough to eat, find a sex/love object, all that same stuff that they did when they chipped tools out of stones.
People change astonishingly little.


As well, I believe that the Gods live in the Timeless Land. Being timeless, it doesn't change---why should They?

[mtpathy]

Do you think you could re-state this? As it stands it makes very little sense to me while sounding portentous.
"reflected from self" reflected as in no outside source? the self of the believer or the god?
"manifested through choice" the choice of the god or the mind?
"i neither stated that a god exists within or outside of a pantheon" hello?
It seems possible that you are perhaps saying that the gods are our mind-constructs. But that isn't a counter-argument to people who believe that the Gods exist in Themselves. That's just a my-belief your-belief stand-off.


its not a statment that was ment to be a counter argument, but simply my point of view, if you want to see my point of view as being pretentious then thats your problem not mine as thats not the way i ment it to sound. however this was a comment made to further "i thought" explain my beliefs and understandings from a post made by...


So, for a god to exist they must be associated with a religion? How do you know this?

however by your statment you have only further taken my comment out of the context that it was ment for, so now ill explain my experience and understanding of "god" again..

i believe in the existence of both dualities, " idea of god and magick is from self", as well as i believe that "magick and god, is our interpretation of the world around us", the creation is through our inward idea, wants,needs, desires reflected onto the world, as the reflection of wants,needs,desires of the world is our inward self interpretation. the "fleshing out" or manifestation of this is idea is god, so when im approached and asked if "i believe in god", i say both "yes i do, and no i dont".

i think that the thread is just going further off point, as those that do worship "gods of tradition, gods of old", seem to be insinuating by there comments that by creating new gods for the modern era were some how killing the gods of the old, i say let the old gods die in a age thats forgotten there true meaning, and create gods that reflect the modern world.

[cesara]

I didn't say adaptation is the root of the practice. I said the Gods adapt.

So then, if the Gods adapt, why is it important for you to reconstruct that which came before?

[S_Wodening]

So then, if the Gods adapt, why is it important for you to reconstruct that which came before?

Well, because there is a lot more to a religion like say Asatru or Anglo-Saxon Heathenry than just the worship of the Gods. That plays a major part but there are also things like the concept of Wyrd, worship of the land wights, cultural values that are not incompatiable with present day life. What reconstruction does is create a starting point for the religion to evovle organicly from. Without that starting point you may as well make up your own religion in my opinion. Too, while the Gods may adapt we will still interact with them the way the ancients did. Humans may change technologically and to a degree socially, but the basic needs of food and shelter are still the same.

[S_Wodening]

Either I completely disagree or we're talking about 2 completely different things.

Cultures change, social systems change, acceptable mores change, but the people inside them change not at all. They still want to feel safe, have enough to eat, find a sex/love object, all that same stuff that they did when they chipped tools out of stones.
People change astonishingly little.


As well, I believe that the Gods live in the Timeless Land. Being timeless, it doesn't change---why should They?

I don't know if we are completely missing each other or not. Anyway, I agree people themselves have not changed a great deal in some ways. In others, I think we have changed a great deal in order to cope with our new social order. The basic needs are the same, but we seek to achieve them in different ways.

As to the Gods being in a Timeless Land, that is about the opposite of what I believe. Even the Gods are subject to Wyrd i.e. karma in the Germanic belief systems. Therefore, they must change and adapt.

[David19]

I'm having trouble seeing these posts as anything but squabbling over word usage. Not that I'm against word-usage quibbles per se, but I don't think they should be mistaken for actual logic neither.

I compressed a little:


I could be misunderstanding, but it seems that Stoirmeacha is saying that Urban Gods must be spirits because the Urban Gods "are not my gods" but (in all fairness) "it may also be the same when flipped around". So ze seems to be saying that whatever one believes are their beliefs, but not the beliefs of Stoirmeacha.......which isn't much of an argument against the reality of Urban Gods, imo.



Again, this (as an argument against belief in Urban Gods and as a statement) is really unclear.

First of all, there's the argument against sitting; "somebody sat, worked out a name and 'invented' this deity". The gods of traffic lights and parking spaces are best invoked sitting---if you're running yellows and driving around parking lots you'd better be sitting!!

Then there's the recognition argument; "I see the gods as decided their own archetypes". At least I think that's the point, 'archetype' has a very specific meaning and it's not 'what the Deity is in charge of' although this seems to be the poster's usage. Again, I fail to see the point.

If I am wishing for good parking spots and fortuitous light changes and my wishes are answered and, at the same time, I have a world-view that includes Little Mysteries/Local Gods/Land Spirits then I will recognize the good events as under the auspices of Urban Gods.

And if your world-view doesn't include those gods then I'm getting the good parking spaces and you're not, so I'm not going to argue with that!


But I DO argue with the attitude that your Path-Name stands as an argument against my opinions and beliefs:

"I consider myself a pretty strict Irish Reconstructionist, and my Gods are those of the Ancient Gaelic societies"

"For me, it's just hard to get my head round as a hard polytheist."

Like there's some received party line for ReConstructionists and Polytheists. I could see those statements as standing if someone were to argue a world-view of conflation, or one god/many manifestations but not against a many gods belief.

Really, what you're saying here is 'I question your gods because they're not like my gods' but that's silly---no one's gods are exactly like anyone else's.

I'm a "pretty strict Irish Reconstructionist" myself. Research tells us that both pre- and post-conversion Irish had/have a fixed belief in the sacredness of specific landmarks (trees, wells, stones) and in their inhabitance by Spirit (often an extremely specific one) and in the presence of OtherWorldly apertures in exact places.
I'm reconstructing the Ancient Irish Believer who lives in West-End Ottawa and drives to work on Hunt Club.

And then there's the statement "my Gods are those of the Ancient Gaelic societies". The ones of 2,000 odd years ago? The markedly different ones of earlier and later? What about the ones of whom no written record exists? The ones in Connacht or the quite different ones in Lagin?

I find the 'high moral ground' aspect of that statement odd---
you're believing in a God who ate so much that He couldn't have casual sex until He puked but my Gods are just "spirits"???

Or (other poster) "as a hard polytheist" "I'd prefer a deity to step up and THEN be named". Did I miss the memo about changing the definition of hard polytheism?
There's lots of Gods.
Some are about trivial events, some are fairly humorous, some choose modern applications, some are locally situated.
There's lots of Gods.

I really loved your post and I agree with the majority of what you said. I'm a "hard" polytheist too (as I probably mentioned somewhere else in this thread), and I don't see a conflict with believing in urban and modern Gods. IMO, there are many, many Gods, probably an infinite amount, some may only be "small scale" (still, that would still be impressive to most humans), some may on a "large scale", etc. I believe that some modern Gods may have influenced the development of certain ideas that they are associated with, or one or more humans forged some kind of connection and one God or another answered the call (for example, someone waiting at the traffic lights, wished for it to turn green, and a God of traffic lights took up that call, etc). I believe that there are some Gods who want nothing to do with this realm/plane, some who want to cause pain and destroy humans for whatever reason, and some that are more neutral. I see no conflict with these beliefs and me also believing in the ancient Gods, the ones in the mythologies. I'm a Sumerian recon, but that doesn't stop me from accepting and knowing modern and urban Gods do exist.

I also consider myself to hold some kind of animistic beliefs, in that I believe everything has a spirit and a God in it (I see a distinction between a spirit and a God, though, a spirit is usually on a smaller scale, and a God can do more things, even if it's a minor God, there's still a difference, IMO). I think there are Gods of and in everything, even in things we don't consider "natural", for example, I think there is a God and spirit of the very computers we are typing at (as well as a general Gods of computers, not just specific ones), I believe in a God of HIV/AIDS, who'd probably be malevonent towards humanity and wants our destruction (there's a Hindu Goddess that recently came about for that, but I think she opposes the work of that God), Gods of BDSM (for this, there are both ancient and modern, for example, Ereshkigal can technically be considered the Sumerian Goddess of BDSM), Gods of different technology, Gods of concepts, even Gods of drugs (e.g. cocaine, LSD, Speed, etc). I even believe that the Gods you read about in fiction (e.g. Glory, Illyria and Jasmine and others from Buffy and Angel, etc) are real, in some sense anyway, etc.

Maybe that sounds dumb, maybe people will really disagree with me or not even take me seriously, but I don't care, it feels right to me, and it just makes sense, that's all I can go with.

[cesara]

Well, because there is a lot more to a religion like say Asatru or Anglo-Saxon Heathenry than just the worship of the Gods. That plays a major part but there are also things like the concept of Wyrd, worship of the land wights, cultural values that are not incompatiable with present day life. What reconstruction does is create a starting point for the religion to evovle organicly from. Without that starting point you may as well make up your own religion in my opinion. Too, while the Gods may adapt we will still interact with them the way the ancients did. Humans may change technologically and to a degree socially, but the basic needs of food and shelter are still the same.

Firstly, thanks so much for your response. I'm always curious as to the reasons behind peoples' choices in their spiritual paths.


Well, because there is a lot more to a religion like say Asatru or Anglo-Saxon Heathenry than just the worship of the Gods.

Ah, okay. So, it's more to you than just worshiping the Gods. So, you would have no qualms about someone worshiping the Gods in a contemporary framework?


That plays a major part but there are also things like the concept of Wyrd, worship of the land wights, cultural values that are not incompatiable with present day life.
Do you feel these things are necessary in order to worship the Gods, though? Or is it more simply showing an appreciation for a particular culture? Also, would you agree that there is also much within the cultural values that are not compatible with present day life? (raping, pillaging and murder are obvious examples - but, it seems there are other, less substantial examples, as well)



What reconstruction does is create a starting point for the religion to evovle organicly from. Without that starting point you may as well make up your own religion in my opinion.
So, for you, understanding the origins of the Gods and what they represent is not enough? You aren't alone in your thinking, however, I often ponder what the 'real' reason many Recons feel that it's not okay to 'make up your own religion' using Gods from ancient pantheons, if there is a claim that the Gods adapt, added to the fact that even Recons discard certain cultural values that are not in line with social progress, not to mention that some of the most popular Recon traditions are based on very little information about the original culture they are attempting to reconstruct.



Too, while the Gods may adapt we will still interact with them the way the ancients did. Humans may change technologically and to a degree socially, but the basic needs of food and shelter are still the same.
Well, I don't necessarily think that the majority of us jump over our sown wheat so that it will grow nice and high. I don't think we need to depend on nature the way we, as a species, did in ancient times. I also think humans have changed in social ways more dramatically than you are suggesting here.

This topic fascinates me, I think, because it has been such a bone of contention between Wiccans/Eclectics and Recons for some time now. Maybe if we get down to the nitty gritty of it we may be able to see the forest for the trees.

Thanks again for sharing your thoughts!

[S_Wodening]

Greetings cesara,

Instead of interspersing my comments with yours which may be confusing I am going on a clean start. Anyway, I have no qualms about someone worshiping the Gods in a contemporary framework. I just would have to question why they would want to. It would seem to me that they would be asking for a whole lot of work in developing rites that is not needed. And I also think that they would miss a lot that they otherwise would not have were they a Recon. Too, as I am none too happy with today's values, I would question why they would chose to worship ancient deities who may see today's world as one they did not shape, and therefore do not desire to be a part of. I do think the ancient deities change and adapt, but I also feel that their values probably remain the same. Using myself as an example, I have changed and adapted with job and life changes, but the values I apply to my life have remained for the most part unchanged. I think the Gods and Goddesses of the various pantheons are basically the same.

I therefore think that in order to understand the Gods and Goddesses of the various ancient pantheons, you must understand the cultures they helped shape. For example within Norse myth there are tales such as the gifts of Odin and his brothers to the first man and woman Ash and Elm. These gifts made them what they were. Had those gifts not been made, Mankind may have turned out differently. Another such gift that could be seen as bringing about cultural change is Odin's gift of the runes. Prior to this, the Germanic peoples had no way of writing. These are only two examples of how the Norse deities shaped ancient culture (if you believe the ancient myths). So in order to better understand the ancient Norse Gods and Goddesses, one can do so by looking at the culture they helped shape. The values the ancient deities held high I think are reflected in the ancient cultures. For example, the ancient Germanic peoples were a family based culture. All of their legal institutions reflect that as do many of their social values. This can be seen in the myths such as when Frigga mourns Balder.

As to many of the things you mention that are not compatible with the cultural values of today, they were not necessarily compatible with those of the ancient world either. Simply because we occupy Iraq does not mean that the majority of Americans think it okay to occupy someone else's farm for example. It was the same then. While you had warbands raiding and pillaging these were basically wartime activities. Within their own culture, they had laws against murder, theft, rape, lying, and so forth just as we do now. And just as we do now, there is a difference made between what is done in war and what is done at home in peace. Too, I was reading today an academic paper that said that archeology had shown the Germanic tribes had a period of relative peace before increasing population created the need to move South and with i t the need for war as they met peoples not happy with their relocation. So there was a time when the ancient Germanic Gods were worshiped by a relatively peaceful culture perhaps with values not far different from our own. Now that is not to say there are things done then we do not do now such as human sacrifice. It is to said such exceptions are few and far between in my opinion.

As to making up one's own pantheon, if that is what one wants to do, that is okay. However, part of trying to worship an ancient pantheon in the way it was is doing so in a fashion the Gods are accustomed to. The ancient Germanic Gods for example were worshiped in ways that were developed over centuries, and that just cannot be done in the few years of one's lifetime. In fact, within the ancient Norse religion it was Odin that was seen as developing the primary way of worship, the blot. The very rite is said to have been starting by the head deity. Anyway, in essence, the ancient pagans were the experts on their religions, we are not. They knew precisely what to do for example in the case of a drought, what gifts to give, and what deities to ask for help. A perfect example of this is the rite of symbel or sumbel amongst Germanic Heathens (Asatruar, Anglo-Saxon Heathens, and related paths). This rite is made to put one in touch with Wyrd (best understood as being similar to karma). Without knowledge of this ancient rite, modern Germanic Heathens would be lacking an important tool to use in their lives. The whole idea is that the ancient pagans knew best how to worship their deities as they had an unbroken history of doing so, and in some cases the religious practice was put in place by the deities themselves.

I think many Recons therefore see neo-pagans that claim to worship ancient deities as somehow being arrogant, thinking that they know better than the ancient peoples. Too, I think there is a feeling that such neo-pagans are only taking half the formula. That is they take the deities, but then they still apply what are essentially Christian values to their lives. Seeing as many Recons are pagan just because they have a problem with the Christian belief system it becomes a point of contention.

As to discarding certain cultural values, I am not sure how many Recons do that. I know quite a few that do, but it is by no means universal, or even the majority, and in recent years is becoming less and less of a practice. I personally try not to discard cultural values unless there is no way I can adapt them. True, I cannot and would not practice human sacrifice (unless perhaps it was myself for some reason), but that does not mean I cannot understand and respect the reasons they may have done that. Most other ancient cultural values can be adapted though. Human sacrifice is a dramatic exception. I do not understand reconstructing a religion for which there is not much information either though, and I am not sure that can even be called reconstruction. There is not much information on ancient Anglo-Saxon paganism for example, but then I have the related culture of the Norse and other Germanic peoples to draw upon to fill in the gaps. Were that not so, I probably would not be Anglo-Saxon Heathen.

I do agree we do not depend on nature as we did. But it is as much about respect as anything else. No, I do not have to jump over my wheat now, but it does not hurt to give thanks for the farmers' harvest, or give gifts to the Gods so farmers get a good harvest. And while I may not have to grow my own wheat, I still have to make money to buy bread. My deities are another way to help ensure I keep my job, and get the money that is coming to me. In some respects I am as dependent on them as the ancients, just for different reasons.

As to social change, part of the reason for Reconstrutionism for some folks is because of the dramatic social changes that have taken place in the last thousand or more years. It is a way to return to a system that they may feel is better suited for living. The whole reason I became pagan to begin with is because I did not agree with many Christian beliefs that had been further shaped by Humanism, Classical thought , and half a dozen other things. In my eyes, they had created a culture that to me was full of instances of not taking personal responsibility and therefore was responsible for much behavior that was ultimately harmful to society. Therefore, adapting an ancient religion to modern social values for me would not make sense. It is easier to take the ancient values of an ancient religion and put them to work in the modern world.

[ninurta2008]

Towero
Housa
busho
Wal
mart

[of black birds]

Well, I came to this discussion late. But the first post, and it's clearing up of the god Skor, Squat and even maybe those of computers, reminded me of the book American Gods by Neil Gaiman which carries a similar premise of modern, urban gods.

And in regards to Caffeinna, there's a funny little 'prayer' that I use jokingly from the Shadowdance podcast:

All Hail Caffeinna,
In the name of the Cup, the Saucer and the Holy Roast. Amen!
:bigredgri

[David19]

Towero
Housa
busho
Wal
mart

:lol: :thumbsup:.


Well, I came to this discussion late. But the first post, and it's clearing up of the god Skor, Squat and even maybe those of computers, reminded me of the book American Gods by Neil Gaiman which carries a similar premise of modern, urban gods.

And in regards to Caffeinna, there's a funny little 'prayer' that I use jokingly from the Shadowdance podcast:

All Hail Caffeinna,
In the name of the Cup, the Saucer and the Holy Roast. Amen!
:bigredgri


Very cool, and, 'American Gods' is definitely a great read, it also generates some interesting ideas.