Modern Civilization Is Awful.

[Grimr]

I loathe modern civilization as I was stating in another thread.

I completely loathe and hate it.


I view modern man to be weak and nothing like his great ancestors.

I don't believe our ancestors to be perfect , but in many ways I see them as being better.

I believe humanity is losing is morality, integrity and sanity with the advance of technology.

Not because technology is bad , but because what we do with it in our surroundings and on ourselves.

Am I alone on this issue?

[CelticMoon11]

Here here! I agree! I also think we are breeding ourselves to be weaker and more inferior where before we would have just dropped off and not spread the genes

[Grimr]

Here here! I agree! I also think we are breeding ourselves to be weaker and more inferior where before we would have just dropped off and not spread the genes

That could be a possibility.

Since the technological explosion we just seem to create more problems for ourselves and more vices to enslave ourselves to.

Not that technology is bad , but is obvious that humanity uses this gift to create more perversions and problems in our societies.

Today we the people are seen as a number or percentage and not as people who haves emotions and real feelings.


Our cultures are being obliterated and replaced with consumerism where we are to be the dumbed down proletariat.

[Qeniheru]

Even though I love technology, I agree with what you're saying. Why can't we use technology for the common good, like what it should be? For instance, we could probably end world hunger if we tried. But nobody wants to, because why give out something for free when you can charge for it? Today's society encourages also wastefulness in all forms, it sickens me...

A good example is something my boyfriend told me today. He works at one of those videogame store chains, and today is "field destroy day". What that means is that the employees go out and basically obliterate with sledgehammers, chisels, etc. anything the company cannot turn a profit on. Like opened game controllers and computer games. Which have nothing wrong with them, the person buying them simply didn't like them. Everything was pretty much brand new, and it angered both of us that the company was making it all useless because it is against store policy to reshelf certain types of used accessories and computer games. I say donate it all to Child's Play, a charity that takes new and gently used video games, toys, etc. and gives them to kids in children's hospitals for Christmas.
But of course, corporations can't be bothered with such things. Unless they are in a bind and need good PR. :2G:

Okay, I think I'm done now. :tongueout

[CelticMoon11]

"Brave New World" springs to mind..

[Grimr]

Even though I love technology, I agree with what you're saying. Why can't we use technology for the common good, like what it should be? For instance, we could probably end world hunger if we tried. But nobody wants to, because why give out something for free when you can charge for it? Today's society encourages also wastefulness in all forms, it sickens me...

A good example is something my boyfriend told me today. He works at one of those videogame store chains, and today is "field destroy day". What that means is that the employees go out and basically obliterate with sledgehammers, chisels, etc. anything the company cannot turn a profit on. Like opened game controllers and computer games. Which have nothing wrong with them, the person buying them simply didn't like them. Everything was pretty much brand new, and it angered both of us that the company was making it all useless because it is against store policy to reshelf certain types of used accessories and computer games. I say donate it all to Child's Play, a charity that takes new and gently used video games, toys, etc. and gives them to kids in children's hospitals for Christmas.
But of course, corporations can't be bothered with such things. Unless they are in a bind and need good PR. :2G:

Okay, I think I'm done now. :tongueout

There are restraraunts that do stuff like that too.

Person #1: Sir , isn't that food still good? Couldn't we give it away?

Must we throw it out?

Person#2: We can't be bothered with such things.

I used to work at this one place where they would literally throw out their old television sets, computers and telephones into the dumpster just to get a upgrade.

I think you have brought somthing good into this thread and it is the subject of wastefulness.

[Grimr]

"Brave New World" springs to mind..

Ah yes good old Aldous Huxley.

The Island comes to mind too, ;)


Followed by 1984 by George Orwell and so on.

You a fan of Animal Farm by George too?

[Cassie]

I loathe modern civilization as I was stating in another thread.

I completely loathe and hate it.


I view modern man to be weak and nothing like his great ancestors.

I don't believe our ancestors to be perfect , but in many ways I see them as being better.

I believe humanity is losing is morality, integrity and sanity with the advance of technology.



I don't think I agree with you, but could you go into more detail about the things I have put in bold above.

I don't really see how we are any weaker than our ancestors, nor do I think we have less morality, integrity or sanity. Can you give some examples of what you mean?

[Infinite Grey]

I don't really see the difference... I mean, physically humans are getting weaker... but intellectually we're breaking impressive grounds... though there have been some recent setbacks. I think the modern human kicks ASS!

[Incendia]

No way man! I prefer modern medicine, women's rights, electricity along with hot and cold running water...need I say more?

[Infinite Grey]

No way man! I prefer modern medicine, women's rights, electricity along with hot and cold running water...need I say more?

Refrigeration, individual rights, lack of serfdom, pubs...

[Grimr]

I don't think I agree with you, but could you go into more detail about the things I have put in bold above.

I don't really see how we are any weaker than our ancestors, nor do I think we have less morality, integrity or sanity. Can you give some examples of what you mean?

Whole great cultures are being replaced by consumerism to be the dumbfounded consumer who listens to every propaganda spoon fed to him or her everyday.

We no longer are the nations of the brave but those who fall prey to dirty politics and governments who we cower on our couches succumbing to all their wishes.

The world is going under a global shift in terms of globalism. Whole cultural values are put aside and left to die.


Obesity and other food related disorders are happening either because of a abundance of food or a lack of pride in our bodies.

Depression is on the high and other mental illnesses which might comprise some of the reasons why food disorders exist too.

Of course other forms of mental illness could be attributed to our social lives in modern society too,

Our lives are completely ran by a monetary system.

Money has become the new God followed by popular culture,media and television.

We are always trying to outbid and outlive our neighborly human beings with the newest fashion and fad.

Technology that is supposed to be the savior of mankind is turning into a system of self destruction , conflicting ideas, and made into weapons of mass destruction of the whole human people.

The list is endless.

[Incendia]

Refrigeration, individual rights, lack of serfdom, pubs...

Here, here! :cheers:

If I lived @ 2000 yrs ago, as a woman, I'd HAVE to be someone's biotch. At least today...I have the choice! :D

edited to add: On second thought...I'd say just 50 years ago

[maphdet]

It is One Big Pile, as I like to call it.

Yes, agreed Dracon.

[Infinite Grey]

Whole great cultures are being replaced by consumerism to be the dumbfounded consumer who listens to every propaganda spoon fed to him or her everyday.

The world is going under a global shift in terms of globalism. Whole cultural values are put aside and left to die.


Obesity and other food related disorders are happening either because of a abundance of food or a lack of pride in our bodies.

as opposed to the obesity of a select few noblemen, while the rest of the population works from dawn to dusk harvesting, preparing and cooking food to which they'll never eat?


Depression is on the high and other mental illnesses which might comprise some of the reasons why food disorders exist too.

Better than fearing that your daughter/son will be ravaged by the next gang of guardsmen and/or soldiers...

Of course other forms of mental illness could be attributed to our social lives in modern society too,


Most of which existed for centuries anyways.

Our lives are completely ran by a monetary system.

Well, I suppose it could be run solely for the purpose of not starving... but that isn't really "living"

Money has become the new God followed by popular culture,media and television.

Not really a new thing... the only difference is the peasants get a taste of it now, instead of just the nobility.

We are always trying to outbid and outlive our neighborly human beings with the newest fashion and fad.

See above.


Technology that is supposed to be the savior of mankind is turning into a system of self destruction , conflicting ideas, and made into weapons of mass destruction of the whole human people.

Technology has always been a double edged sword... but remember, most of our technological advancement was born of adversity.

The list is endless.

Both sides...

[Grimr]

I don't really see the difference... I mean, physically humans are getting weaker... but intellectually we're breaking impressive grounds... though there have been some recent setbacks. I think the modern human kicks ASS!

Yes we men have become emasculated too.

We can't even fight in public even in defence.

We have become the neutered male of modern times.

Constantly reminded of Pacifism and tolerance.

In which not all forms of tolerance are bad , but not all forms are positive either.


Also this intellectually breaking impressive grounds is a minority in the sense of our selective societies.

True some really seek to make civilization better on the terms of our future.

But most men of science and intellect are bought and paid for on a daily basis.

[Grimr]

No way man! I prefer modern medicine, women's rights, electricity along with hot and cold running water...need I say more?

Some of it is good.

I however will not be apologetic in the sense of disregarding the wrong side of it too.

The wrong side often outways the good in my eyes.


Many people know the world is going insane right now , but refuse to do anything out of the comforts in which they so much enjoy even though it is a illusion and none of it really has any substance.

[Grimr]

Refrigeration, individual rights, lack of serfdom, pubs...

Oh there are forms of serfdom today we just give it other names.

Do you honestly think people at minimum wage jobs or your local supermarket enjoy their servitude in all reality?

Individual rights these days seemingly can be bought and paid for especially with those you know in high places.

[Grimr]

Here, here! :cheers:

If I lived @ 2000 yrs ago, as a woman, I'd HAVE to be someone's biotch. At least today...I have the choice! :D

edited to add: On second thought...I'd say just 100 years ago

What was wrong with women staying home raising their children?

And also it was not that bad I am sure as alot of our propagandists these days would have us believe.

Infact if it was that bad I am sure there would be no civilization because men and women require each other.

The only modern thing of women rights that I agree with is the right to vote and so on because everyone should be able to do this.

Also I don't mind women working either.

Women should be able to go out and have their individual lives.

So often though I see women putting their careers before everything and disregarding all concepts of family.

That is what I can not stand.

I have talked to women in their late thirties who are depressed because they can't have children because they spent most of their lives on careers or spending money on grown up toys or other forms of material self indulgence.

I admit I am a traditionalist.

Now I am sure I will be crucified for my thoughts and beliefs.

I am expecting it with the views and beliefs of most so called mainstream thought.

[Qeniheru]

I think you have brought somthing good into this thread and it is the subject of wastefulness.

I did? Awesome! :bouncysmi

Anyway, I think a lot of these problems would be solved if we would start doing something about it. The great inventors and revolutionaries of our history didn't sit around and wait for something to change. Our modern society teaches people that we should sit back and "enjoy" life, that technology will come and solve all our problems in due time. Technology didn't exist before mankind made it so, so it cannot do anything without us...at least not yet (ahh evil robots! :awilly: ). This is why great, life-changing advances seem so few in recent decades compared to, say, the early 1900's. Or is it just me? :fpeek:

[Cassie]

Whole great cultures are being replaced by consumerism to be the dumbfounded consumer who listens to every propaganda spoon fed to him or her everyday.

We no longer are the nations of the brave but those who fall prey to dirty politics and governments who we cower on our couches succumbing to all their wishes.

The world is going under a global shift in terms of globalism. Whole cultural values are put aside and left to die.


Obesity and other food related disorders are happening either because of a abundance of food or a lack of pride in our bodies.

Depression is on the high and other mental illnesses which might comprise some of the reasons why food disorders exist too.

Of course other forms of mental illness could be attributed to our social lives in modern society too,

Our lives are completely ran by a monetary system.

Money has become the new God followed by popular culture,media and television.

We are always trying to outbid and outlive our neighborly human beings with the newest fashion and fad.

Technology that is supposed to be the savior of mankind is turning into a system of self destruction , conflicting ideas, and made into weapons of mass destruction of the whole human people.

The list is endless.
Well actually I agree with most of what you say about consumerism and globalisation. I despise consumerism and I think globalisation has gone badly wrong because of being dominated by consumerism.

However there are a lot of good things in modern society.
I am happy for the technology that makes it possible to have this conversation.
Techonlogy has extended the reach of humanity to the planets and stars.
We are able to cure illnesses that would once have wiped most of us out.
In general, democracy in the western world has given more rights and freedom to more people than ever before.
Athletes and sportsmen run faster, jump higher and lift heavier weights than ever before.
More people are educated than ever before.
People in the west live longer, healthier lives than ever before.
Morality and Integrity have always been personal things. Since there are more people around now I guess there are more immoral people AND more moral people too.
The list of good things could also go on and on.

[Infinite Grey]

Oh there are forms of serfdom today we just give it other names.

Do you honestly think people at minimum wage jobs or your local supermarket enjoy their servitude in all reality?

No, but people at minimum wage have the OPTION of progressing, serfs do not.


Individual rights these days seemingly can be bought and paid for especially with those you know in high places.

Do you honestly believe that our ancestors were any better? If so, you are viewing them with naive romanticism

[Incendia]

Whole great cultures are being replaced by consumerism to be the dumbfounded consumer who listens to every proPeopleda spoon fed to him or her everyday.

This has always happened via trade, invasion etc. it just happens more rapidly and on a greater scale today.

We no longer are the nations of the brave but those who fall prey to dirty politics and governments who we cower on our couches succumbing to all their wishes.

Dude, this hasn't changed either...look at the history of the U.K. for example., and the influence of the church...

Depression is on the high and other mental illnesses which might comprise some of the reasons why food disorders exist too.

Of course other forms of mental illness could be attributed to our social lives in modern society too,

I'm sure people were just as depressed living in the wonderful conditions that they did as they are today. Mental illness was more often attributed to the supernatural back then and other ignorant reasoning. See the history of the word hysteria.

[Technology that is supposed to be the savior of mankind is turning into a system of self destruction , conflicting ideas, and made into weapons of mass destruction of the whole human people.

I agree with you on the nukes.

[Grimr]

as opposed to the obesity of a select few noblemen, while the rest of the population works from dawn to dusk harvesting, preparing and cooking food to which they'll never eat?



Better than fearing that your daughter/son will be ravaged by the next gang of guardsmen and/or soldiers...



Most of which existed for centuries anyways.



Well, I suppose it could be run solely for the purpose of not starving... but that isn't really "living"



Not really a new thing... the only difference is the peasants get a taste of it now, instead of just the nobility.



See above.



Technology has always been a double edged sword... but remember, most of our technological advancement was born of adversity.



Both sides...



as opposed to the obesity of a select few noblemen, while the rest of the population works from dawn to dusk harvesting, preparing and cooking food to which they'll never eat?

Both circumstances are bad and perverted in my belief.


Better than fearing that your daughter/son will be ravaged by the next gang of guardsmen and/or soldiers...

Go to the bad parts of L.A. and Chicago sometime.


Most of which existed for centuries anyways.

Which has doubled and become even more blown out with the advent of technology and communication because people have the means to dispell their views to all people. Also governments have the means to control more people lives in all aspects even in their homes with television.


Well, I suppose it could be run solely for the purpose of not starving... but that isn't really "living"

From school and on we are literally bombarded that our only goal should be of financial and economical success.

Anything with substance like virtue and honor is completely disregarded.

We virtually become the monetary barbarians of our times thinking ourselves so great in a pompous fashion since we are backed up with technology.

We are like the apes in tuxedos.


Not really a new thing... the only difference is the peasants get a taste of it now, instead of just the nobility.

Even in ancient time noblemen and yes even cruel tyrants who called themselves noblemen had codes or some form of morality no matter how good or obscured.

Today there is no code.

The only desire or code is one thing.

Wealth.

Acquire it by all means and disregard all other things.


Technology has always been a double edged sword... but remember, most of our technological advancement was born of adversity.

True , but even more so now.

[Grimr]

I did? Awesome! :bouncysmi

Anyway, I think a lot of these problems would be solved if we would start doing something about it. The great inventors and revolutionaries of our history didn't sit around and wait for something to change. Our modern society teaches people that we should sit back and "enjoy" life, that technology will come and solve all our problems in due time. Technology didn't exist before mankind made it so, so it cannot do anything without us...at least not yet (ahh evil robots! :awilly: ). This is why great, life-changing advances seem so few in recent decades compared to, say, the early 1900's. Or is it just me? :fpeek:

Exactly we are taught to tolerate things and let our great leaders with their infinite wisdom of technology to come to the rescue.

They can't do no wrong they have technology on their side.

They say enjoy the good life.

Meanwhile while we are in the illusion of the good life they do so many wicked despicable things that you and I will never hear about.

[Incendia]

What was wrong with women staying home raising their children?

Never said I had a problem with it, however, I prefer having the choice!

[Grimr]

Well actually I agree with most of what you say about consumerism and globalisation. I despise consumerism and I think globalisation has gone badly wrong because of being dominated by consumerism.

However there are a lot of good things in modern society.
I am happy for the technology that makes it possible to have this conversation.
Techonlogy has extended the reach of humanity to the planets and stars.
We are able to cure illnesses that would once have wiped most of us out.
In general, democracy in the western world has given more rights and freedom to more people than ever before.
Athletes and sportsmen run faster, jump higher and lift heavier weights than ever before.
More people are educated than ever before.
People in the west live longer, healthier lives than ever before.
Morality and Integrity have always been personal things. Since there are more people around now I guess there are more immoral people AND more moral people too.
The list of good things could also go on and on.



Well actually I agree with most of what you say about consumerism and globalisation. I despise consumerism and I think globalisation has gone badly wrong because of being dominated by consumerism.


That is good.

You and I with other minorities are the few to even question or even speak opposition to such movements these days as everyone else is completely bedazzled by such things.



However there are a lot of good things in modern society.
I am happy for the technology that makes it possible to have this conversation.


There are some positive effects yes , but it is my view that the negative ramifications outway the good.



We are able to cure illnesses that would once have wiped most of us out.


While senior citizens pay half their retirement checks to get their medicine to stay alive and also while rich health agencies like parasites get money of the sick and dying.

Not to mention how much money hospitals charge just to get a visit.



In general, democracy in the western world has given more rights and freedom to more people than ever before.


Not really.

Democracy is a failed system and ever since it's creation in ancient Greece in which it wasn't a Democracy at all.

Democracy institutes a false sense of patriotism and freedom on the masses and everyone falls into line.



More people are educated than ever before.


Public education is a joke.

It only consists to make you into their perfect ideal worker ready to compete in a globalized community to form Global clusters of their perfect ideal of globalism.

The only good schooling is private schooling in which only the wealthy can enjoy.

Not to mention the sick sadistic nature of the youth culture today in which I can speak about because I am nineteen.

Most public schools are urban jungles.



Since there are more people around now I guess there are more immoral people AND more moral people too.


Not really don't let the televised sitcoms fool you.

[Qeniheru]

Exactly we are taught to tolerate things and let our great leaders with their infinite wisdom of technology to come to the rescue.

They can't do no wrong they have technology on their side.

They say enjoy the good life.

Meanwhile while we are in the illusion of the good life they do so many wicked despicable things that you and I will never hear about.

This is our society of sheep. Everyone follows the "standard", maybe because we have been promised this utopian future for so long that we will all be completely tame and placid, regardless of what happens.
Unfortunately, I think this is paving the way for a dystopian future, the way the USA and some other countries are going about it...

[Grimr]

Also it is my belief that those who defend our modern civilization the most are those people who gain the most from it.

[Incendia]

So often though I see women putting their careers before everything and disregarding all concepts of family.

That is what I can not stand.

The same can be said for men.

I have talked to women in their late thirties who are depressed because they can't have children because they spent most of their lives on careers or spending money on grown up toys or other forms of material self indulgence.

See the answer above. BTW, I won't be one of them...and no, I'm not a feminazi.

I admit I am a traditionalist.

Nothing wrong with that. There are many women 'traditionalists' out there to agree with you.

Now I am sure I will be crucified for my thoughts and beliefs.

You know what they say when you assume...

[Qeniheru]

Public education is a joke.

It only consists to make you into their perfect ideal worker ready to compete in a globalized community to form Global clusters of their perfect ideal of globalism.

The only good schooling is private schooling in which only the wealthy can enjoy.

Not to mention the sick sadistic nature of the youth culture today in which I can speak about because I am nineteen.

Most public schools are urban jungles.


I agree with a lot of what is being said, but this in particular...

Amen to that! I still have horrid memories of high school. I went to public schools all my life, in the boondocks, where in high school we were still using biology textbooks from 1980. I also had to deal with psychotic people that threatened to cut my face off with rusty razor blades, among other things. :ahhhh:

[Grimr]

No, but people at minimum wage have the OPTION of progressing, serfs do not.



Do you honestly believe that our ancestors were any better? If so, you are viewing them with naive romanticism



No, but people at minimum wage have the OPTION of progressing, serfs do not.


The only option of progression is technological knowledge or wealth.

If you don't have any of these qualities and yet you are a good person with honor and integrity they give you the shaft.

Sorry sir perhaps you should look into the supersize me career at Mcdonalds.

The illusion is the option.



Do you honestly believe that our ancestors were any better? If so, you are viewing them with naive romanticism


No I admit there always has been problems, however I do believe that ancient man was more free then the quaint constrained civilization that we live in.

You only look at people like me as some fooled romantic because of your complete optimism in technology thinking yourself better then our ancestors.

[Grimr]

I agree with a lot of what is being said, but this in particular...

Amen to that! I still have horrid memories of high school. I went to public schools all my life, in the boondocks, where in high school we were still using biology textbooks from 1980. I also had to deal with psychotic people that threatened to cut my face off with rusty razor blades, among other things. :ahhhh:

Precisely.

My highschool was a gangster hip hop paradise , except for me because I hated it everyday.

I hated the overpaid teachers who sat on their asses.

I learned more at a library in a month then I learned at my school for 4 years til I graduated a year ago.

Infact most of my knowledge is self taught as my school was utterly ridiculous.

[Qeniheru]

Precisely.

My highschool was a gangster hip hop paradise , except for me because I hated it everyday.

I hated the overpaid teachers who sat on their asses.

I learned more at a library in a month then I learned at my school for 4 years til I graduated a year ago.

Infact most of my knowledge is self taught as my school was utterly ridiculous.

Same here. I learned far, far more from the vast quantities of books, encyclopedias, etc. that my mother brought home to me from the community college she works at. And after witnessing the birth of the Internet, I was able to learn even more. Hell, I am still guilty of this in college because there are some CS professors here that are legendary for their inabilty to teach. People wonder how I pass their courses, it is simple: I pay no attention to lectures whatsoever and pay more attention to the textbook and online resources. Works great. 8O

[Grimr]

This has always happened via trade, invasion etc. it just happens more rapidly and on a greater scale today.



Dude, this hasn't changed either...look at the history of the U.K. for example., the influence of the church, the Czars of Russia etc. etc. ...



I'm sure people were just as depressed living in the wonderful conditions that they did as they are today. Mental illness was more often attributed to the supernatural back then and other ignorant reasoning. See the history of the word hysteria.



As opposed to salt, spices and gold? The fashion thing isn't new either...powdered whigs in Europe and lace collars come to mind...as one example of many. Look at the history of Egyptian royalty...



I agree with you on the nukes.




This has always happened via trade, invasion etc. it just happens more rapidly and on a greater scale today.


Gee I wonder why.

Could it be technology?




Dude, this hasn't changed either...look at the history of the U.K. for example., the influence of the church, the Czars of Russia etc. etc. ...


The difference is that they marched in the streets against injustice today we just talk about it hoping it will go away if we close our eyes real quickly.




I'm sure people were just as depressed living in the wonderful conditions that they did as they are today. Mental illness was more often attributed to the supernatural back then and other ignorant reasoning. See the history of the word hysteria.


I know.

I am just saying with the society we live in we create even more mental ilness just by the ways we live.



As opposed to salt, spices and gold?


Back then it was more on the means of survival.

Today it is the means of coming to acquiring materials that we don't need , but we feel compelled by social materialism to get it.

Today there is the false impression of the perfect citizen,fad and culture.

The irony is so many people think these illusions are real.



The fashion thing isn't new either...powdered whigs in Europe and lace collars come to mind...as one example of many. Look at the history of Egyptian royalty...


The difference is only the nobility thought anything of it in great particulates.

Today everyone is obsessed with the notions because of popular culture.

We are literally whoring ourselves.



I agree with you on the nukes.


The most utterly useless and evil creation to set foot on this earth as of yet followed by chemical and air borne warfare.

[Grimr]

Never said I had a problem with it, however, I prefer having the choice!

Is it any wonder why so many women even with the choice still ruin their lives knowing it is too late to have a family?

Most women wait til their thirties so they can go have their fun with all disregards to anything of family oriented nature or tradition.

I am at total disgust with the likes of writers like Goldstein and so on.

What also amazes me is the ammount of man hate in Feminism.

I have read their literature and yes I do my studies.



Yet , Feminism supports such perversions and stupidity on the likes of metro male culture.

What a odd world we live in.

[Grimr]

This is our society of sheep. Everyone follows the "standard", maybe because we have been promised this utopian future for so long that we will all be completely tame and placid, regardless of what happens.
Unfortunately, I think this is paving the way for a dystopian future, the way the USA and some other countries are going about it...

That false Utopian nightmare as I call it will come to a end mark my words.

By our own ignorance we sow the seeds of destruction for tomorrow.


The change might come sooner then we all think.

[Grimr]

The same can be said for men.



See the answer above. BTW, I won't be one of them...and no, I'm not a feminazi.



Nothing wrong with that. There are many women 'traditionalists' out there to agree with you.



You know what they say when you assume...




The same can be said for men.


I am not disagreeing with that.

I am only asking , " Who brings life into this world." ?

[Incendia]

Okay, I only have time to respond to one statement, as it is way past Incendia's bed time.
The difference is that they marched in the streets against injustice today we just talk about it hoping it will go away if we close our eyes real quickly.


No, back then (depending on the culture) they were more likely to be killed for doing so.

[Incendia]

I am not disagreeing with that.

I am only asking , " Who brings life into this world." ?

Men AND women.

[Incendia]

Is it any wonder why so many women even with the choice still ruin their lives knowing it is too late to have a family?

Most women wait til their thirties so they can go have their fun with all disregards to anything of family oriented nature or tradition.

I am at total disgust with the likes of writers like Goldstein and so on.

What also amazes me is the ammount of man hate in Feminism.

I have read their literature and yes I do my studies.



Yet , Feminism supports such perversions and stupidity on the likes of metro male culture.

What a odd world we live in.

:(...Incendia has stayed up just to make a couple of more responses.

1.Uhm...okay...if I never have children and a family my life is over....:rolleyes:

2. It amazes me the amount of misogyny that abounds! Extremism in any form, whether it be misogyny or misandrogyny, is well, extremism!

[Grimr]

Okay, I only have time to respond to one statement, as it is way past Incendia's bed time.


No, back then (depending on the culture) they were more likely to be killed for doing so.

True.

Today however we expect everything to be instant.

Since we live in the brave new world where everything is fast,right now and instant.

The problem is nobody wants to do anything out of their own time because it would be too much of a bother.


The general idea in seeing today is this:

" What can we do."? ( Powerless mentality.)

or

" There is nothing we can do for this is how the world works."


For once I would like to hear this:

I am tired and sick of it all, " Who is with me to create a revolution of change."?

[Philosophia]

Is it any wonder why so many women even with the choice still ruin their lives knowing it is too late to have a family?
Most women wait til their thirties so they can go have their fun with all disregards to anything of family oriented nature or tradition.
I am at total disgust with the likes of writers like Goldstein and so on.
What also amazes me is the ammount of man hate in Feminism.
I have read their literature and yes I do my studies.
Yet , Feminism supports such perversions and stupidity on the likes of metro male culture.
What a odd world we live in.

You have not read any feminist litrature on feminism, otherwise you wouldn't state such a stupid sterotype. I am a feminist and have learnt a lot via books. So yes, I have read the literature.
I am also not interested in having children. This is my nature, and the nature of who I am.
Feminism is not "bad" nor is it disgusting. I suggest you learn a bit more about it before you make ridiculous generalizations.

[Grimr]

Men AND women.

Who gets impregnated?

Who requires consent to the male to get impregnated?

And vice versa.

Who carries the child in the womb?

Who is supposed to be the nurturing mother?


I agree the male requires a heavy level in this too.

I am not disagreeing with that.

I am also not disagreeing that there are alot of poor exscuses for men out there.

Here is a question:

What is the function of women in a relationship in a human cycle of living?

[Grimr]

You have not read any feminist litrature on feminism, otherwise you wouldn't state such a stupid sterotype. I am a feminist and have learnt a lot via books. So yes, I have read the literature.
I am also not interested in having children. This is my nature, and the nature of who I am.
Feminism is not "bad" nor is it disgusting. I suggest you learn a bit more about it before you make ridiculous generalizations.

Do pray tell and enlighten me.

What is Feminism?

What is it's functions?

Why is there all the anti male hating today?

[Philosophia]

Do pray tell and enlighten me.

Tell you what?
What feminism is? Or how feminism helps us? What?

[Grimr]

:(...Incendia has stayed up just to make a couple of more responses.

1.Uhm...okay...if I never have children and a family my life is over....:rolleyes:

2. It amazes me the amount of misogyny that abounds! Extremism in any form, whether it be misogyny or misandrogyny, is well, extremism!


1.Uhm...okay...if I never have children and a family my life is over....


Isn't life in general about creating life and furthering the line?

I understand some women not wanting children but this form of thought has grown more within the decade at disturbing rates..........



2. It amazes me the amount of misogyny that abounds! Extremism in any form, whether it be misogyny or misandrogyny, is well, extremism!


Explain.

[Grimr]

Tell you what?
What feminism is? Or how feminism helps us? What?

Both.

And perhaps some personal views as well.



Why is there all the anti male hating today?


If you could answer this question too I would appreciate it! :)

[Philosophia]

Both.
And perhaps some personal views as well.

Feminism is about giving women the choice of what their life will be about without having to conform to what society dictates.
Feminism helps us to to gain equality, employment, education, medical help, political awareness, and to give us the choice of deciding what we want with our lives.

If you could answer this question too I would appreciate it! :)

Feminism isn't anti-male. If there is "anti-male" attitudes, then maybe its the pendulum swinging too far over. I haven't encountered any "anti-male" sentiment except in very radical feminist views.

[Incendia]

Isn't life in general about creating life and furthering the line?

I understand some women not wanting children but this form of thought has grown more within the decade at disturbing rates..........

You are partially right, as is the case for industrialized countries, thanks to advances in birth control. However, a recent report by the UN predicts 9.1 Billion People on Earth by 2050. And no, it's not a form of thought, it's called having a choice.

Explain.

Extremism hurts the majority...in other words male chauvinism is just as wrong as extreme feminism.

[Grimr]

Feminism is about giving women the choice of what their life will be about without having to conform to what society dictates.
Feminism helps us to to gain equality, employment, education, medical help, political awareness, and to give us the choice of deciding what we want with our lives.



Feminism isn't anti-male. If there is "anti-male" attitudes, then maybe its the pendulum swinging too far over. I haven't encountered any "anti-male" sentiment except in very radical feminist views.



Feminism is about giving women the choice of what their life will be about without having to conform to what society dictates.


Could you go more into that?

I really wanted to understand that level of thinking.



Feminism helps us to to gain equality, employment, education, medical help, political awareness,


These are good things I am all for it.

Not disagreeing there.



and to give us the choice of deciding what we want with our lives.


Is it possible that only the radical forms of Feminism is being heard or listened to and not just by men but by self proclaimed Feminists as women?



Feminism isn't anti-male. If there is "anti-male" attitudes, then maybe its the pendulum swinging too far over.


I can definately see it swinging in full force now.



I haven't encountered any "anti-male" sentiment except in very radical feminist views


Those are the only ones that I hear about.

[Grimr]

You are partially right, as is the case for industrialized countries thanks to advances in birth control. However, a recent report by the UN predicts 9.1 Billion People on Earth by 2050. And no, it's not a form of thought, it's called having a choice.



Extremism hurts the majority...in other words male chauvinism is just as wrong as extreme feminism.



You are partially right, as is the case for industrialized countries thanks to advances in birth control. However, a recent report by the UN predicts 9.1 Billion People on Earth by 2050. And no, it's not a form of thought, it's called having a choice.


Another progressive action by our modern superiority no doubt.




Extremism hurts the majority...in other words male chauvinism is just as wrong as extreme feminism


Agreed.

In no way am I making excuses for degenerate men who use women for ill either.

[Grimr]

I am off to bed I will review this thread later.

Thanks to everyone that has so far participated.

Not only are you learning of my views , but I am coming to know the general beliefs of others in my quest of knowledge on such issues.

I look forward to chatting will all of you again soon.

[Incendia]

Another progressive action by our modern superiority no doubt.

Yes, it is a progressive action. You should read this site thoroughly...

http://www.yale.edu/ynhti/curriculum/units/1982/6/82.06.03.x.html

Good night...or shall I say good morning. Incendia signing off....

[Philosophia]

Could you go more into that? I really wanted to understand that level of thinking.

Feminism has enabled women to have the choices that many men already have. To go into jobs that are "male" dominated, to have degrees and to allow us to progress by making decisions ourselves.

These are good things I am all for it. Not disagreeing there.

Good.

Is it possible that only the radical forms of Feminism is being heard or listened to and not just by men but by self proclaimed Feminists as women?

For myself, I know thats not true. I read a lot of feminist literature and most of it is rather moderate or conservative. The feminists I know aren't radical and haven't read any of that material either.

I can definately see it swinging in full force now.

I really can't.

Those are the only ones that I hear about.

You're listening to the extremists.

[Cain]

Can I get back the 10 minutes of my life I spent reading this nonsense? If I wanted woefully misinformed statements and rose tinted views of the past I'd listen to a Tory Party political statement.

[Qeniheru]

Can I get back the 10 minutes of my life I spent reading this nonsense? If I wanted woefully misinformed statements and rose tinted views of the past I'd listen to a Tory Party political statement.


Last time I checked, this wasn't required reading. :p

[David19]

No way man! I prefer modern medicine, women's rights, electricity along with hot and cold running water...need I say more?

I agree with you, i like living in this time more than the past, for all the reasons you mentioned, plus me being gay would probably get me killed (even though Roman's and Greek's did encourage sleeping with men, they still wanted you to have sex and reproduce with women, plus the Greek's did support pediphilia - an old rich guy could be with a young teen).

[David19]

What was wrong with women staying home raising their children?

And also it was not that bad I am sure as alot of our propagandists these days would have us believe.

Infact if it was that bad I am sure there would be no civilization because men and women require each other.

The only modern thing of women rights that I agree with is the right to vote and so on because everyone should be able to do this.

Also I don't mind women working either.

Women should be able to go out and have their individual lives.

So often though I see women putting their careers before everything and disregarding all concepts of family.

That is what I can not stand.

I have talked to women in their late thirties who are depressed because they can't have children because they spent most of their lives on careers or spending money on grown up toys or other forms of material self indulgence.

I admit I am a traditionalist.

Now I am sure I will be crucified for my thoughts and beliefs.

I am expecting it with the views and beliefs of most so called mainstream thought.

I don't mind if a women wants to stay at home, but they need to have a choice and the opportunity to go out and work.

While i can see where you're coming from, there are some women who don't want kids, who are perfectly happy with their careers, and there are those women who are mothers and feel resentment because they miss their jobs.

[Sage Rainsong]

Technology has its down sides, just like everything else. I believe that people do grow too dependant on machines and a lot of technological progress is hindered (especially environmentally friendly technology) by corporate greed. Of course we live longer and a lot easier than our ancestors did. I would like to point out that without technology we wouldn't be having this conversation. Let's say that you are right. What do we do about it? Should we, torch our houses and go live in some National park somewhere?

Also I concider myself a feminist because true feminism is about equal rights not special rights. Yes you right about women regreting not having a family but can you really draw a conclusion about all women just from thoes few examples. Personally I feel that it has more to do with "the grass is always greener," syndrome. I know many women, while they love their children, wish they had followed their careers instead of having families. Are they wrong for having thoes feelings or are they just listening to some feminist propaganda? Please don't take these statements as a personal attack, Im just trying to see your point.

[Shanti]

Change or die..the law of evolution.
We will eventually find out if our species is making the right changes for its survival. If not, it wont matter cause our species will join the dinos and if we are changing ok, we will prosper and the planet too since we need her. Time will tell all.

Hey, our lifespan has increased, maybe our species survival chances will too. Whats meant to be will happen, one way or the other.

[ElvenMage]

yes we are losing a bit of morality as our civilization advances into the newer modern age. but humans lost what i would call morality long ago when they invented war. thousands of years ago we already lost our morality and integrity. im not saying it is dead in tis world, just mostly lost. we as humans are immoral creatures. the old and new generation are both as bad as each other. i believe that through technology, great things can be done, such as inventing tiny machines that could be in your body to protect you from diseases, which is a very real possibility, but also terrible things, such as, for instance, nuclear weapons, which could obliterate all human life on earth. the older generation, as far back as cavemen, if they had the potential to use what we have and will have, would have already used it. we are no better or worse. since the birth of humans we lost morality and integrity as your thinking of it. but...thats just my point of view.

[Grimr]

Can I get back the 10 minutes of my life I spent reading this nonsense? If I wanted woefully misinformed statements and rose tinted views of the past I'd listen to a Tory Party political statement.

I am playing the world's smallest violin right here for you.


_violin_

Noone said you had to come here.

If you can't contribute then don't.

Very simple concept.

[Grimr]

Last time I checked, this wasn't required reading. :p

Exactly.

[Grimr]

I agree with you, i like living in this time more than the past, for all the reasons you mentioned, plus me being gay would probably get me killed (even though Roman's and Greek's did encourage sleeping with men, they still wanted you to have sex and reproduce with women, plus the Greek's did support pediphilia - an old rich guy could be with a young teen).

It was not all that extreme in ancient Rome and Greece , but for some odd reason anthropologists and people who write about those cultures make it seem so.

For the rest of the ancient world I am not so sure.

If you lived in Christian Europe after the medieval age you probally be targeted.

Of course homosexuality is quite old and managed to survive this long.

[Grimr]

I don't mind if a women wants to stay at home, but they need to have a choice and the opportunity to go out and work.

While i can see where you're coming from, there are some women who don't want kids, who are perfectly happy with their careers, and there are those women who are mothers and feel resentment because they miss their jobs.

Both views I can understand very well.

Especially my traditionalist views and other views that are less agreeable to me.

I like to look at things from all angles besides my own.


What I am seeing more and more today though is women who choose not to have a family.

What is even worse is that divorce and other family breakups are common things today.

We have so many kids that come from broken homes.

When I look to the causes of these denominators I come to the conclusion of that is our culture that defines us as modern man that plays the instigator of these problems.

[Grimr]

Technology has its down sides, just like everything else. I believe that people do grow too dependant on machines and a lot of technological progress is hindered (especially environmentally friendly technology) by corporate greed. Of course we live longer and a lot easier than our ancestors did. I would like to point out that without technology we wouldn't be having this conversation. Let's say that you are right. What do we do about it? Should we, torch our houses and go live in some National park somewhere?

Also I concider myself a feminist because true feminism is about equal rights not special rights. Yes you right about women regreting not having a family but can you really draw a conclusion about all women just from thoes few examples. Personally I feel that it has more to do with "the grass is always greener," syndrome. I know many women, while they love their children, wish they had followed their careers instead of having families. Are they wrong for having thoes feelings or are they just listening to some feminist propaganda? Please don't take these statements as a personal attack, Im just trying to see your point.



Technology has its down sides, just like everything else. I believe that people do grow too dependant on machines and a lot of technological progress is hindered (especially environmentally friendly technology) by corporate greed.


Agreed. Especially in a ecological sense.


Though I think it goes more deeper as you hear me in this thread describing the cosequences on our living as well.



Of course we live longer and a lot easier than our ancestors did. I would like to point out that without technology we wouldn't be having this conversation.


As I have said earlier technology is not bad , but only how man uses it for control and domination makes technology bad.



Let's say that you are right. What do we do about it? Should we, torch our houses and go live in some National park somewhere?


Revolutionize our culture and making our societies more positive is always a start.

Sitting around doing nothing is not.


can you really draw a conclusion about all women just from thoes few examples.

I can for instance if I keep seeing it by simple observations through it's own repetive motion.

Not only that , but there are studies into the subject by statistics I am sure from a sociological essence.


Are they wrong for having thoes feelings or are they just listening to some feminist propaganda?

If it was just a couple of individuals I would say no.

What we have though today is the opposite system where many pay attention to careers and not family thought.

Infact I believe this to be the majority of women's thoughts these days.

It is basically leading into the extremes like many people here have spoken about.

I hope you don't see me as me as a lunatic.

I really am trying to be respectful on the conversation.

[Grimr]

Change or die..the law of evolution.
We will eventually find out if our species is making the right changes for its survival. If not, it wont matter cause our species will join the dinos and if we are changing ok, we will prosper and the planet too since we need her. Time will tell all.

Hey, our lifespan has increased, maybe our species survival chances will too. Whats meant to be will happen, one way or the other.

Excellent point.

You are right either we will make the right choice or we won't.

Either we will prosper or die by our own self destruction.

Evolution in the making I suppose.

[_Banbha_]

I am playing the world's smallest violin right here for you.


_violin_

Noone said you had to come here.

If you can't contribute then don't.

Very simple concept.Nonsense, Cain's post was an apt contribution to this thread. :hehehehe:

[Grimr]

Also I noticed that alot of modern groups seek to destabilize traditional thinking.

For some reason they like to criticize people like myself.

I have had no problems here in the thread as most of you people are really nice.

In real life though my traditionalist views were blatantly opposed like I was flawed and my whole outlook since I did not accept the standard or mainstream thought.

[Grimr]

Nonsense, Cain's post was an apt contribution to this thread. :hehehehe:

Do you care to contribute your voice?

Surely you have somthing.

[Grimr]

yes we are losing a bit of morality as our civilization advances into the newer modern age. but humans lost what i would call morality long ago when they invented war. thousands of years ago we already lost our morality and integrity. im not saying it is dead in tis world, just mostly lost. we as humans are immoral creatures. the old and new generation are both as bad as each other. i believe that through technology, great things can be done, such as inventing tiny machines that could be in your body to protect you from diseases, which is a very real possibility, but also terrible things, such as, for instance, nuclear weapons, which could obliterate all human life on earth. the older generation, as far back as cavemen, if they had the potential to use what we have and will have, would have already used it. we are no better or worse. since the birth of humans we lost morality and integrity as your thinking of it. but...thats just my point of view.

I agree.

Thanks for your contribution.

[_Banbha_]

Do you care to contribute your voice?

Surely you have somthing.
I have many things to be sure.

I will say I do not believe it is wise to assume that those who would oppose your view automatically fall into the catagory of mainstream thought. You'll really be boxing yourself in with that mindset.

Good luck with everything. :)

[stella01904]

I view modern man to be weak and nothing like his great ancestors.
People are living artificial lives eating crazy no-good miserable animals that were raised in overcrowded corporate farms with hormone shots and come all wrapped up in plastic, also genetically altered produce, pesticides blah blah ad nauseum, not to mention all the brainwashing, propaganda and constant barrage of advertising everyone is constantly subjected to, the generally numbing atmosphere of wage labor, sitting in traffic breathing car exhaust and tire particles, watching Access Hollywood....

whatcha expect?

Stella

[Novembers River]

There are a lot of trains of thought here. Where to begin?

I don't have anything against technology itself, but I do feel that we often misuse technology. Husband and I often have this debate. He is very pro-technology. While I think technology is good and we need it, I am leery of it and have doubts about human being's capabilities of handling new technology responsibly.

My biggest "beef" is with our society (US) and the illusion of freedom that we have. From our first days of school and on we are conditioned to be workers. We are feed the great lines of "opportunity" but what that really means is following a path of working hard to make someone else rich.

The common person today is a slave in the US. Sure there are exceptions, but the majority of the US population is enslaved to their job and shackled with terrible amounts of debt.

Our society tells us "Have a big car! Have a big house! Show that you're a success!", but in the background we have bills coming out the nose that will be with us for years. And we can never break this ruthless cycle unless we change our perceptions of what is successful and what is not.

We aren't really free. It's all an illusion.

The silver lining, however, is that we can break this cycle at least for ourselves. It's possible in America to get yourself a small plot of land, build a sensible home (get off grid!) and live on a small amount of money. Will society see you as a success? Nope. But does that really matter? Unfortunately it does for too many people that don't want to think outside the box and are sedated by the common "way of life".

As far as the comments about women go, I have to disagree with your traditionalist views. The impression I've received is that you (Dracon) feel that women are ruining their lives and society by not having families. Women are not fulfilling their duties by choosing a career or other pursuits other than childrearing.

So some women today are doing what men have always done. Why is it ok for men and not for women? The males' duties should go beyond simply impregnating a woman.

I'm sorry, but life is about more than reproduction and there are plenty of people reproducing out there already. We're not in short supply of humans on this planet.

Personally my husband and I have chosen not to have children. We don't like children...at all. Do you honestly think it would be better for my life to have a child that I would despise? That I would regret? How is that good for either the child or me?

Just because women have the biological makeup to bear children doesn't mean that they always should. And choosing not to have children does not make anything wrong with a woman or make her life any less compared to a woman with a child.

[Psycmoe]

Technology is part of our evolution... we've forgotton much of the rest.

Humanity, at least those peoples in developed nations, need a healthy dose of compassion.

[Psycmoe]

The silver lining, however, is that we can break this cycle at least for ourselves. It's possible in America to get yourself a small plot of land, build a sensible home (get off grid!) and live on a small amount of money. Will society see you as a success? Nope. But does that really matter? Unfortunately it does for too many people that don't want to think outside the box and are sedated by the common "way of life".

You and my mother would get along very well. To anyone who says that this isn't possible: My mum owns 10 acres of forestland ($15,000), is entirely off the grid, built her own house, and is still raising my little brother. She's also returned to college, in her late 40's, and is running a secure household on $8000 a year.

As far as the comments about women go, I have to disagree with your traditionalist views. The impression I've received is that you (Dracon) feel that women are ruining their lives and society by not having families. Women are not fulfilling their duties by choosing a career or other pursuits other than childrearing.


http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/sfo/65806895.html

Some people should not have children. Period.

[Maggie]

What was wrong with women staying home raising their children?

And also it was not that bad I am sure as alot of our propagandists these days would have us believe. In fact if it was that bad I am sure there would be no civilization because men and women require each other.


Really? That would depend on whether or not you're a male receiving all the benefits of a wife and mother at home or whether you're a female providing them to everyone. Back in the 50's when I was born there was a rule that nursing students could not marry while in school. My mother, along with most of her class, got married the month after graduation. She was very ill with her third child (no birth control then) and she wanted her tubes tied. Her OB?GYN refused to do it because she was "too young" and "didn't have enough children." That was the good old days?

When I had children I was living around Washington DC, and I stayed home with our first child, primarily because there was very little infant care here in 1978 and we had no family in the area. My then husband also outtalked me about the tax benefit. I found that no one wanted to talk to me because a stay at home mother was assumed to have nothing to say in the real world. When I went back to work fifteen years later it was assumed that I had nothing to offer because I'd been just a mother. But the kids and their father sure benefitted by having an adult to handle all life's litte details for them. And you know what? It really isn't good for either children or the spouse to have someone at their beck and call like that. You really think that was way it was way back when? In colonial America children could be apprenticed and live with that person at the age of seven years. My father left high school to join the Navy at 17, and when his two year enlistment was up went to work at 19. William Raspberry, a Washington Post columnist I don't often agree with, wrote a really good column about how a stay at home mother benefits everyone, including society at large, except--herself. It's a really, really bad deal for the stay at home mother.

And, by the way, it's not mothers' children--it's FATHERS' AND mothers' children.


The only modern thing of women rights that I agree with is the right to vote and so on because everyone should be able to do this.

What rights do you disagree with?

Also I don't mind women working either.

Women should be able to go out and have their individual lives.

That's nice. It's only possible when a family recognizes that the family is a group project and that the mother has the same rights to an individual life as the rest of them do.

So often though I see women putting their careers before everything and disregarding all concepts of family.

That is what I can not stand.[/qiuote]

And does it bother you when men put their careers before the family, including children? Why is that above reproach?

[quote]I have talked to women in their late thirties who are depressed because they can't have children because they spent most of their lives on careers or spending money on grown up toys or other forms of material self indulgence.

Really? Women in their late thirties can still have children. Or aren't they in a ralationship? And why is it an obstacle to a family to have the woman devote their lives to career when it isn't an obstacle for a man to have done the same thing? Right down to the spending?

I admit I am a traditionalist.

Now I am sure I will be crucified for my thoughts and beliefs.

I am expecting it with the views and beliefs of most so called mainstream thought.

Don't know about "mainstream thought." These are the opinions of a woman who has lived both sides. And who watched a daughter attend Harvard grad school. When I started college Harvard didn't admit women.....


Maggie

[CelticMoon11]

Yet , Feminism supports such perversions and stupidity on the likes of metro male culture.

What a odd world we live in.

Oi! Thanks to the metro male culture I can now get jeans that are long enough without them being so baggy I look like I have the meat and two veg! :lol: *hugs new jeans* :D

[Hellenic_Witch]

I think that throughout time, members of EVERY generation were disgusted by the changes they saw in their peers. Every generation has seen negative changes in their civilization and yearned for the way it was in yesteryear......it's so easy to place our ancestors on a pedestal and talk about how simple and highminded their lives were.....but they were human, weren't they???

Sure, obesity is sadly comon now. A bit better than a thirty or forty year life span, wouldn't you say?

Yes, technology can cause problems and create a lazy approach to life. But, what would our ancestors have given for antibacterial soap, or sonograms and prenatal care, or vaccines...or the fact that my son who was born with Spina Bifida would have died at birth if he had been born in another age.

There is good and bad, positive and negative in every age, every time period. Nothing will ever change that, but you have the choice to react to it in a positive way or a negative way. If you don't like it, whining about it does nothing. Decide what small changes you can make in your life, your community, your world.

Contribute more than criticism to your generation.

[Grimr]

I have many things to be sure.

I will say I do not believe it is wise to assume that those who would oppose your view automatically fall into the catagory of mainstream thought. You'll really be boxing yourself in with that mindset.

Good luck with everything. :)

I rather be boxed then to fall into the fold.

I do understand though where you are coming from.

[Grimr]

People are living artificial lives eating crazy no-good miserable animals that were raised in overcrowded corporate farms with hormone shots and come all wrapped up in plastic, also genetically altered produce, pesticides blah blah ad nauseum, not to mention all the brainwashing, propaganda and constant barrage of advertising everyone is constantly subjected to, the generally numbing atmosphere of wage labor, sitting in traffic breathing car exhaust and tire particles, watching Access Hollywood....

whatcha expect?

Stella

You definately know where I am coming from. :)

Good to see others.

[Grimr]

There are a lot of trains of thought here. Where to begin?

I don't have anything against technology itself, but I do feel that we often misuse technology. Husband and I often have this debate. He is very pro-technology. While I think technology is good and we need it, I am leery of it and have doubts about human being's capabilities of handling new technology responsibly.

My biggest "beef" is with our society (US) and the illusion of freedom that we have. From our first days of school and on we are conditioned to be workers. We are feed the great lines of "opportunity" but what that really means is following a path of working hard to make someone else rich.

The common person today is a slave in the US. Sure there are exceptions, but the majority of the US population is enslaved to their job and shackled with terrible amounts of debt.

Our society tells us "Have a big car! Have a big house! Show that you're a success!", but in the background we have bills coming out the nose that will be with us for years. And we can never break this ruthless cycle unless we change our perceptions of what is successful and what is not.

We aren't really free. It's all an illusion.

The silver lining, however, is that we can break this cycle at least for ourselves. It's possible in America to get yourself a small plot of land, build a sensible home (get off grid!) and live on a small amount of money. Will society see you as a success? Nope. But does that really matter? Unfortunately it does for too many people that don't want to think outside the box and are sedated by the common "way of life".

As far as the comments about women go, I have to disagree with your traditionalist views. The impression I've received is that you (Dracon) feel that women are ruining their lives and society by not having families. Women are not fulfilling their duties by choosing a career or other pursuits other than childrearing.

So some women today are doing what men have always done. Why is it ok for men and not for women? The males' duties should go beyond simply impregnating a woman.

I'm sorry, but life is about more than reproduction and there are plenty of people reproducing out there already. We're not in short supply of humans on this planet.

Personally my husband and I have chosen not to have children. We don't like children...at all. Do you honestly think it would be better for my life to have a child that I would despise? That I would regret? How is that good for either the child or me?

Just because women have the biological makeup to bear children doesn't mean that they always should. And choosing not to have children does not make anything wrong with a woman or make her life any less compared to a woman with a child.



I don't have anything against technology itself, but I do feel that we often misuse technology. Husband and I often have this debate. He is very pro-technology. While I think technology is good and we need it, I am leery of it and have doubts about human being's capabilities of handling new technology responsibly.

My biggest "beef" is with our society (US) and the illusion of freedom that we have. From our first days of school and on we are conditioned to be workers. We are feed the great lines of "opportunity" but what that really means is following a path of working hard to make someone else rich.

The common person today is a slave in the US. Sure there are exceptions, but the majority of the US population is enslaved to their job and shackled with terrible amounts of debt.

Our society tells us "Have a big car! Have a big house! Show that you're a success!", but in the background we have bills coming out the nose that will be with us for years. And we can never break this ruthless cycle unless we change our perceptions of what is successful and what is not.

We aren't really free. It's all an illusion.


Agreed.:)




As far as the comments about women go, I have to disagree with your traditionalist views. The impression I've received is that you (Dracon) feel that women are ruining their lives and society by not having families. Women are not fulfilling their duties by choosing a career or other pursuits other than childrearing.


What exactly is wrong with traditionalism in thinking?

When did we start waking up saying hey you traditionalist you are wrong?

I am not angry. :)

I am just curious.

There seems to be a war on traditional cultures and ways of being these days.


I'm sorry, but life is about more than reproduction and there are plenty of people reproducing out there already. We're not in short supply of humans on this planet.


Can you explain the extreme low birth rates in Europe or in Western Countries alone?



Just because women have the biological makeup to bear children doesn't mean that they always should. And choosing not to have children does not make anything wrong with a woman or make her life any less compared to a woman with a child

Understandable.

I am just saying the extreme of alot of people not having children at all is just as damaging.

[Grimr]

Technology is part of our evolution... we've forgotton much of the rest.

Humanity, at least those peoples in developed nations, need a healthy dose of compassion.

Exactly.

Technology might be our evolution in a somewhat unconventional way , but I feel with the modern times in which we live we ignore or forget the other things that we as a people must evolve into for the better.

I agree we all need compassion.

[Grimr]

Oi! Thanks to the metro male culture I can now get jeans that are long enough without them being so baggy I look like I have the meat and two veg! :lol: *hugs new jeans* :D

lol.

Give me pals who know how to have a good beer drinking contest anyday. :p

[Tadrith]

Dracon, whatever post-secondary curricular activites you intend to take, I highly suggest sociology and anthroplogy. It will open your eyes like never before.

[Grimr]

I think that throughout time, members of EVERY generation were disgusted by the changes they saw in their peers. Every generation has seen negative changes in their civilization and yearned for the way it was in yesteryear......it's so easy to place our ancestors on a pedestal and talk about how simple and highminded their lives were.....but they were human, weren't they???

Sure, obesity is sadly comon now. A bit better than a thirty or forty year life span, wouldn't you say?

Yes, technology can cause problems and create a lazy approach to life. But, what would our ancestors have given for antibacterial soap, or sonograms and prenatal care, or vaccines...or the fact that my son who was born with Spina Bifida would have died at birth if he had been born in another age.

There is good and bad, positive and negative in every age, every time period. Nothing will ever change that, but you have the choice to react to it in a positive way or a negative way. If you don't like it, whining about it does nothing. Decide what small changes you can make in your life, your community, your world.

Contribute more than criticism to your generation.




I think that throughout time, members of EVERY generation were disgusted by the changes they saw in their peers. Every generation has seen negative changes in their civilization and yearned for the way it was in yesteryear......it's so easy to place our ancestors on a pedestal and talk about how simple and highminded their lives were.....but they were human, weren't they???


I am not trying to make our ancestors into Gods. ;)

I know every time and era is flawed in some manner.

I just view them to have more freedom in the way they lived.

Granted that there was ill creations like slavery,plague,and short lifespans I still view them to have more freedom apart of those unfortunate things that I mentioned there.



Yes, technology can cause problems and create a lazy approach to life. But, what would our ancestors have given for antibacterial soap, or sonograms and prenatal care, or vaccines...or the fact that my son who was born with Spina Bifida would have died at birth if he had been born in another age.


In my eyes the good aspects are much smaller then the bad.

I am glad for you and your son of course.

I just view the modern culture to breed lazy,self indulgent, arrogant,monetary thinking,materialistic people that I can not stand.

Now there are exceptions for not everyone is like that , but I can not help but point the flaws of the world we live in.



There is good and bad, positive and negative in every age, every time period. Nothing will ever change that, but you have the choice to react to it in a positive way or a negative way. If you don't like it, whining about it does nothing. Decide what small changes you can make in your life, your community, your world.

Contribute more than criticism to your generation


I do understand this thinking for I have come to these relevations earlier in my life and apart of my criticism I do try to contribute in the help of others even though it may be small.

[Grimr]

Dracon, whatever post-secondary curricular activites you intend to take, I highly suggest sociology and anthroplogy. It will open your eyes like never before.

I have they are interesting subjects.

[Jolixte]

Maybe you should move to Africa or perhaps Asia and find some primative tribe to live with. Sounds like a good idea to me, maybe that's what I'll do.

[Grimr]

Really? That would depend on whether or not you're a male receiving all the benefits of a wife and mother at home or whether you're a female providing them to everyone. Back in the 50's when I was born there was a rule that nursing students could not marry while in school. My mother, along with most of her class, got married the month after graduation. She was very ill with her third child (no birth control then) and she wanted her tubes tied. Her OB?GYN refused to do it because she was "too young" and "didn't have enough children." That was the good old days?

When I had children I was living around Washington DC, and I stayed home with our first child, primarily because there was very little infant care here in 1978 and we had no family in the area. My then husband also outtalked me about the tax benefit. I found that no one wanted to talk to me because a stay at home mother was assumed to have nothing to say in the real world. When I went back to work fifteen years later it was assumed that I had nothing to offer because I'd been just a mother. But the kids and their father sure benefitted by having an adult to handle all life's litte details for them. And you know what? It really isn't good for either children or the spouse to have someone at their beck and call like that. You really think that was way it was way back when? In colonial America children could be apprenticed and live with that person at the age of seven years. My father left high school to join the Navy at 17, and when his two year enlistment was up went to work at 19. William Raspberry, a Washington Post columnist I don't often agree with, wrote a really good column about how a stay at home mother benefits everyone, including society at large, except--herself. It's a really, really bad deal for the stay at home mother.

And, by the way, it's not mothers' children--it's FATHERS' AND mothers' children.




What rights do you disagree with?



That's nice. It's only possible when a family recognizes that the family is a group project and that the mother has the same rights to an individual life as the rest of them do.


And does it bother you when men put their careers before the family, including children? Why is that above reproach?



Really? Women in their late thirties can still have children. Or aren't they in a ralationship? And why is it an obstacle to a family to have the woman devote their lives to career when it isn't an obstacle for a man to have done the same thing? Right down to the spending?



Don't know about "mainstream thought." These are the opinions of a woman who has lived both sides. And who watched a daughter attend Harvard grad school. When I started college Harvard didn't admit women.....


Maggie




What rights do you disagree with?


Nothing in particular.

I just wish to see women more supportive of their family and children instead of everyone being career oriented.

Now I know there are exceptions.

I have no problem with this.

I don't have a problem with women who have occupations , but what puts me in a fuss is that when I look at society today they look in shame at housewives or women who care more about family then careers.

Also it seems that the government in Western nations give women no support as housewives.

It is almost like they demand them all to be in the workforce.

I hope I have not stated my views wrong and no I am not a chauvinist.




And does it bother you when men put their careers before the family, including children? Why is that above reproach?


It is not above reproach.

I hate men like that too! ;)




Really? Women in their late thirties can still have children. Or aren't they in a ralationship? And why is it an obstacle to a family to have the woman devote their lives to career when it isn't an obstacle for a man to have done the same thing? Right down to the spending?


Well what I meant to say is alot of women I have noticed wait too long to the point when they are ready to settle down that at their age having children almost becomes impossible physically.

[Tadrith]

Your thoughts are essentically constrained on the failure of culture in western societies. Your statements fall flat on their ass if you were to extend such generalisation to the Trobiand Islanders, the Maui, or the Ju/'hoansi. I am actually quite surprised that you so conveniently forgot all the other cultures. Ethnocentricism (wether negative or positive) is something you seem to revel in (and a fallacy which is taught in anthropology class, hence my surprise in your claim).

Also, traditional thoughts have been replaced with modern thought. That is why you are receiving heat over it. Its evolution baby, its why the Mastodon isn't hitting it up with the Pachiderms. It died out because its environment rendered it extinct. In essence, your adherence to your beliefs, very admirable by the way, will sooner or later die out in due time if our paradigm with this (stupid) sense of being politically correct does not change.

Yours truly,

[Grimr]

Maybe you should move to Africa or perhaps Asia and find some primative tribe to live with. Sounds like a good idea to me, maybe that's what I'll do.

Huh?


:hmmmmm:

[Jolixte]

Huh?


:hmmmmm:
No problems with modern civilization there.

[Grimr]

No problems with modern civilization there.

Yes , but none of my ancestors are tribal I wouldn't fit well with them.

Instead all my ancestors are of Western civilization with the false sense of progress in a technological setting.

[Grimr]

Your thoughts are essentically constrained on the failure of culture in western societies. Your statements fall flat on their ass if you were to extend such generalisation to the Trobiand Islanders, the Maui, or the Ju/'hoansi. I am actually quite surprised that you so conveniently forgot all the other cultures. Ethnocentricism (wether negative or positive) is something you seem to revel in (and a fallacy which is taught in anthropology class, hence my surprise in your claim).

Also, traditional thoughts have been replaced with modern thought. That is why you are receiving heat over it. Its evolution baby, its why the Mastodon isn't hitting it up with the Pachiderms. It died out because its environment rendered it extinct. In essence, your adherence to your beliefs, very admirable by the way, will sooner or later die out in due time if our paradigm with this (stupid) sense of being politically correct does not change.

Yours truly,




Your thoughts are essentically constrained on the failure of culture in western societies. Your statements fall flat on their ass if you were to extend such generalisation to the Trobiand Islanders, the Maui, or the Ju/'hoansi.


Perhaps I should of stated I was mostly talking about the cultures of Europe.

As those are the ones that I think about the most.

It does not matter. Personally for me all ancient cultures or even modern tribes with their faults are nothing compared to the faults of modern man.

The way I see it modern man is a time junkie always looking at his watch in a hurry to meet death.

He is a creature of materialism,monetary thinking and only concerned with his economicism which all derogative and negative effects of all of this he just ignores or pretends it does not exist.

In acient times all it took was courage and straight will to shape any life for yourself.

The future was boundless more in those times in my opinion.

Today , however it is technological innovation or wealth that makes a life today and if you don't have both the consequences even if you are a honorable man are quite high.




Also, traditional thoughts have been replaced with modern thought. That is why you are receiving heat over it. Its evolution baby,


Whether it be evolution or change it does not matter.

Not all change is for the better in my opinion.



It died out because its environment rendered it extinct. In essence, your adherence to your beliefs, very admirable by the way, will sooner or later die out in due time if our paradigm with this (stupid) sense of being politically correct does not change.


Ironic how the leeches outlive the stronger......

Ignorance is bliss I guess.

I made this thread and I think the way I do because I believe PC thinking to be crap.

[Tadrith]

In acient times all it took was courage and straight will to shape any life for yourself.


I've many memories which contradict your statement. Either way, its speculation. If that's what you believe in, and it makes you warm and fuzzy inside, so be it. Just dont speak it like its a fact, you would be disillusioning yourself otherwise.

[Grimr]

Indeed, ignorance IS bliss.

How am I wrong?

We all know the world today runs on technological viability to compete on a global scale.

If you aren't viable or up to government standards you are screwed.

Back then if you were strong enough you could do anything.

[Grimr]

I've many memories which contradict your statement. Either way, its speculation. If that's what you believe in, and it makes you warm and fuzzy inside, so be it. Just dont speak it like its a fact, you would be disillusioning yourself otherwise.

Tell me how I am wrong.

[Tadrith]

Alright, lets constrain ourselves to the 14th century. How often do you hear of serf making it into noble status? Marying into royalty? Owning large amounts of land?

[Rowan Darkmoon]

Alright, lets constrain ourselves to the 14th century. How often do you hear of serf making it into noble status? Marying into royalty? Owning large amounts of land?

I agree, how ancient are we talking here? 1950? 1300? 20,000 years ago before the advent of the agricultural revolution?

I would think that hunters and gatherers probably did have a "freer" life then we did/do, but after the advent of agriculture and the development of food surplus, caste systems and job specialization supposedly developed pretty quickly, so it would be difficult for people to do whatever they wanted.

[Grimr]

Alright, lets constrain ourselves to the 14th century. How often do you hear of serf making it into noble status? Marying into royalty? Owning large amounts of land?

I like cultures that are of the B.C. era before the A.D.

Also I am a fan of tribal cultures.

Nomadic and hunting plus gathering societies are nice too.


Also there are serfs in todays modern culture so what are you trying to prove?

Am I asking for all of us to return to that?

No.

I am just saying I wish some of the forms of morality,honor and nobility to come into our modern era.

I wish for more humanism of the arts and such vs. the materialism of Western civilization.

I wish for a all right revolution.

I think that would be a pleasant compromise for me.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

I like cultures that of the B.C. era before the A.D.

Also I am a fan of tribal cultures.


Also there are serfs in todays modern culture so what are you trying to prove?

I think that his question was similar to my own in you have to define "ancient" in order to argue that they were more free. I think some ancient societies were more free, some weren't, but it depends on how far back you go.

[Grimr]

I think that his question was similar to my own in you have to define "ancient" in order to argue that they were more free. I think some ancient societies were more free, some weren't, but it depends on how far back you go.

More or less I suppose.

What I have noticed in irony is the more you go in the history of humanity man tries to control his brother and neighbor even more.

Man demands more dominion of nature and the world the he lives in.

This is where I am getting at.

[Rowan Darkmoon]

More or less I suppose.

What I have noticed in irony is the more you go in the history of humanity man tries to control his brother and neighbor even more.

Man demands more dominion of nature and the world the he lives in.

This is where I am getting at.

How so? I honestly think that this time period more then any other has been trying to reverse of some man's control over his "brother and neighbor." Slavery is a very old institution, and occured in B.C. times as well. The ancient Egyptians made the Hebrews slaves, Romans had slaves, etc.... Slavery is illegal in Western society, and this is a comparatively recent development.

You indicated that you don't like people to be politically correct, but political correctness stems from a desire to treat all people as equals and to try to avoid some of the bias that was earlier evident.

In addition, even in earlier societies, someone was controlling someone else. You have indicated that you appreciate tribal life, but a tribe by it's very definition is a more stratified society then a band, usually with leadership by the elders of the group. Which tribal societies do you appreciate? Nomadic societies like the Nuer where the male head of the household holds absolute power over his family, even life and death? This would still indicate control to me.

I think that the "American dream" is in some sense an illusion to keep people working, but there are instances of people who have done it based on determination and talent. I think that at this time in history more so then any other for the past 20,000 years, people have the ability to chose what they want to do and be. Now, does this beat the hunter/gatherer who worked 20 hours a week, and had plenty of food? No, it doesn't but our population grew past the limits of everyone being able to turn back that way a long time ago.

[Novembers River]

You and my mother would get along very well. To anyone who says that this isn't possible: My mum owns 10 acres of forestland ($15,000), is entirely off the grid, built her own house, and is still raising my little brother. She's also returned to college, in her late 40's, and is running a secure household on $8000 a year.

I think that's wonderful! This is what I'd like to work towards to break the chains.

Kudos to your mum!

[Novembers River]

What exactly is wrong with traditionalism in thinking?

When did we start waking up saying hey you traditionalist you are wrong?

I am not angry. :)

I am just curious.

There's not anything wrong with traditionalism. It's your choice to have those views and I respect that. However, you are in turn saying there's something wrong with the views of women who choose career over family.

You can't throw your views out there and say it's ok for you to have them, but not ok for someone else to have their's.


Can you explain the extreme low birth rates in Europe or in Western Countries alone?

I don't disagree that people are having less children these days. But do you really think we're on the edge of extinction? There are still plenty of children being born every day.


I am just saying the extreme of alot of people not having children at all is just as damaging.

I think we're far from it being an extreme problem.

You're talking about wanting to go back to ancient times. What do you think the population was like then?

In 1 A.D. there were only around 150 million people on Earth. Yet, they managed to survive and populate the Earth to the point where today the world's population is around 6.5 billion people. (http://www.geohive.com/)

You want B.C.? Ok. Check out the census site which shows even 10,000 B.C. They're saying that at that point in time there were between 1 and 10 million people on Earth. Yet, they still successfully blossomed the Earth's population to today's 6.5 BILLION people. (http://www.census.gov/ipc/www/worldhis.html)

So until our population dwindles down to <10 million people, I can't say I'm too concerned.

I am just saying the extreme of alot of people not having children at all is just as damaging.

At this time, I respectfully disagree.

[Maggie]

Nothing in particular.

I just wish to see women more supportive of their family and children instead of everyone being career oriented.

Why do you think that women aren't? Haven't you seen the articles right here on AOL talking about dealing with families and careers for women?

I don't have a problem with women who have occupations , but what puts me in a fuss is that when I look at society today they look in shame at housewives or women who care more about family then careers.

Yah. Been there, done that. But what makes you think it was any better in the past? "Women's work" never has been held in high regard, and men generally considered it an insult to do any of it themselves.

Also it seems that the government in Western nations give women no support as housewives.

I don't know of any government that does. The only exceptions are those countries where the birthrate is falling and the government pays them to have babies. That isn't supporting housewives.

It is almost like they demand them all to be in the workforce.

Come right down to it, who would replace all the mothers in the workforce? And actually, there have always been mothers in the workforce. The "Father Knows Best" picture only held true for the higher economic classes. My mother worked part-time and full-time while I was growing up in the 50''s and 60's because our family needed the money. We were what used to be called blue collar, and not highly paid at that. Back then nurses didn't get paid that much either.

Well what I meant to say is alot of women I have noticed wait too long to the point when they are ready to settle down that at their age having children almost becomes impossible physically.

It's a choice. If they aren't that keen on having children that they plan, they probably didn't really want to have them. And how have you noticed this? Do you actually talk to them, how many is "a lot"?

Maggie

[Maggie]

I like cultures that are of the B.C. era before the A.D.

Also I am a fan of tribal cultures. [quote]

Why? Tribalism is what is pushing the killing in too many places right now in contemporary society.

[quote]Nomadic and hunting plus gathering societies are nice too.[quote]

Why? They were always dependant on finding things to hunt and gather. The actual reality of such cultures were not a matter of the male wandering out to spend a few hours hunting in nice weather while the woman sits at the campfire stirring an aromatic stew.


[quote]Also there are serfs in todays modern culture so what are you trying to prove?[quote]

What kind? The kind where you spend hours a day every day spinning thread, or cutting blocks for the pyramids or working in fields you don't own and where most of the crop goes to the landowner--and you can't quit that job and find another?


[quote]I am just saying I wish some of the forms of morality,honor and nobility to come into our modern era.

Such as?

I wish for more humanism of the arts and such vs. the materialism of Western civilization.

In the past the arts were dependant on patronage of either the rich or the Church--who dictated the content. Museums as we have them now didn't exist.


Maggie

[Tadrith]

Does this thread even belong in the "Just Pagan" forum? Should it not be in the Just Talk instead?

*useless ramblings*

[Grimr]

Let me make myself clear I know there is no going back to the time and era of our ancestors.

I was merely saying that I admire their time to our own.

The only way in my opinion for our modern civilization to succeed is on the lines of revolutionizing our conventional thought as I see it being very harmful.

I also don't claim to have all the answers to quick fixes.

It is no doubt that many people here disagree with my beliefs , which there is nothing wrong with that.

I am only stating my beliefs and looking to see if others agree with me.

[Grimr]

Does this thread even belong in the "Just Pagan" forum? Should it not be in the Just Talk instead?

*useless ramblings*


You need a hobby , opposed to starting trouble.

[Grimr]

How so? I honestly think that this time period more then any other has been trying to reverse of some man's control over his "brother and neighbor." Slavery is a very old institution, and occured in B.C. times as well. The ancient Egyptians made the Hebrews slaves, Romans had slaves, etc.... Slavery is illegal in Western society, and this is a comparatively recent development.

You indicated that you don't like people to be politically correct, but political correctness stems from a desire to treat all people as equals and to try to avoid some of the bias that was earlier evident.

In addition, even in earlier societies, someone was controlling someone else. You have indicated that you appreciate tribal life, but a tribe by it's very definition is a more stratified society then a band, usually with leadership by the elders of the group. Which tribal societies do you appreciate? Nomadic societies like the Nuer where the male head of the household holds absolute power over his family, even life and death? This would still indicate control to me.

I think that the "American dream" is in some sense an illusion to keep people working, but there are instances of people who have done it based on determination and talent. I think that at this time in history more so then any other for the past 20,000 years, people have the ability to chose what they want to do and be. Now, does this beat the hunter/gatherer who worked 20 hours a week, and had plenty of food? No, it doesn't but our population grew past the limits of everyone being able to turn back that way a long time ago.

As I said no era is perfect and that includes our ancient lifestyles.

What I have noticed though is modern man is no better then his ancestor and often times is far more worse.

We are also much better in lieing and controling of others by making it look like our actions are for the benefit of others even if they don't like our ways and laws.


We have become masters of deceivement in our own times.

I am fond of older times because atleast they were not so constrained in living as we are today.

[Grimr]

There's not anything wrong with traditionalism. It's your choice to have those views and I respect that. However, you are in turn saying there's something wrong with the views of women who choose career over family.

You can't throw your views out there and say it's ok for you to