Native American Fluffy?

[Baye]

I wasn't sure where to post this question so I placed it here.
I don't want to sound hard but these are honest questions.
I often people use the title Princess when claiming Native American heritage. But I have read a few sources and it states that NA did not use such titles.
Also When people claim some NA heritage they always say Cherokee. Even if they were raised and family was raised in a part of the US that Cherokee did not live.
Is it possible some may just think it is cool to claim Native heritage and pick Cherokee most likely it's the only Native tribe or nation they have heard of.
The reason why I ask is because it seems to me it follows a patter of how many Serious practicing Pagans and Wiccans will use the term "Fluffy"
Could this be the same case? A "Native" Fluffy claiming a heritage that just isn't there? Like I said I don't mean to be rude sounding. I'm just very curious.


Baye

[Morgandria]

Happens all the time. Plastic shamans and white medicine frauds. There are always going to be people who prefer the idealized versions of Native spirituality, rather than the truths of it, simply because they don't want to be told they can't pursue certain things because they're not Native.

For their part, a lot of Native groups don't understand why whites try to appropriate a culture that isn't theirs, and why they don't look up their own ancestry for answers.

[Chibi-Fallon]

Even if they were raised and family was raised in a part of the US that Cherokee did not live.

It really depends. I have a friend who is 50% American Indian and 50% German. If you look at both the same way, she doesn't live in a German area of the city, nor did her parents, or their parents. Doesn't make her any less German.

Also with all the relocation, and many times today American Indians don't marry within their own tribe, it's hard to place one label or even to know in some cases. Minneapolis has a huge American Indian population, a lot of them have converted to Christianity too so tribes got intermixed that way.

I think a lot of people do sort of make-up stuff about being American Indian but with everyone being such a mutt in the US it's hard to know. AIM (American Indian Movement, not the instant messanger :lol: ) might have some stuff on it if you want to know more. I think a lot of those people may be at least part American Indian but linking to a tribe may be a reach.

[Shanti]

Yes there are people who are wanna bees, I think. They dont study, learn, or anything, and just tack on a lable. They dont even follow the teaching of spirit. They dont follow their heart, they follow their ego.

But you dont have to be of blood either. I spent the first 9 yrs of my life on a res and I am white, mid eastern and african. I was acepted as another humankind that belonged. I was told we all, NA included, walk the to the beat of our own drum.

My SO is part NA. His great, great grandmother came from a res in northern Wi, we dont know the tribe since she married white, and was stripped of her heritage.
My SO gained more when he studied with a local Medicine man who also is a friend of ours. He is from the Rosebud res.

Its not blood, its heart and spirit.

And spiritual feelings, of anykind, belong to all of us regardless of where we are linked to by blood. Our spirit has no color, isnt racest, isnt bond to only one way either. Your spirit is free and to follow it frees your heart.
If your spirit moves you to an area of spirituality outside of heritage, thats where you belong. (untill your led elsewhere, if you are!) :)

[Valnorran]

It's the same with people who tack "Celtic" onto everything.

[Malcolm]

Plastic shamans and white medicine frauds

:lol:


Thats great. Consider it stolen.

[weaverwoman]

As far as the whole NA princess thing goes: I am from the southeastern US and I am 1/8 Cherokee/the rest is Scots-Irish. It always infuriated me that people somehow had to justify their NA heritage by adding in that their great-grandmother was a Cherokee Princess (never existed in reality) It is my oppinion (and that's all it is) that this was a result of being ashamed of their heritage. In this country and the south in particular NA and many races for that matter were (and sadly still are) discriminated against and I guess when you couldn't deny that you were of NA blood maybe somehow saying you were of "royal" blood made it easier. In my experience it was the older generation that said it or people would say they heard it from the grandma or grandpa.
I don't know that I can comment on the whole fluffy NA thing as I have yet to grasp the fluffy bunny concept all together. But I totally agree with Shanti that if someone feels a call toward NA spirituality that just because it isn't in the blood is no reason to abandon it....it IS something that you feel in heart and spirit, BUT I do not think people should make false claims to heritage..... be PROUD of who you are and where you came from.

[Baye]

I guess I should clarify a bit. And thank you all for the response BTW!
I don't mean people who have adopted NA beliefs. I support that 100% I myself have followed a belief that does not date back to my own heritage.
There just seems to be a blood claiming that may not be all that authentic.
I also agree on the Celtic thing. Believe it or not all Irish people are of Celtic blood. In fact you can find more people with Celtic heritage in northern Italy & Parts of Russia!!!
Anyway I hope I did not offend anyone.


Baye

[Djiril]

I asked my mom about that awhile back, since she was into studying NA cultures for a long time, and she said there are just a lot of people out there who are part Cherokee.

I asked her about that after I heard NA comedian Charlie Hill put down "white" people who say that. He appearently doesn't have much respect for people who call themselves "Indian" based only on a bit of DNA.

[Agaliha]

I often people use the title Princess when claiming Native American heritage. But I have read a few sources and it states that NA did not use such titles.

Yeah, I don't undertand that either. Heh.
Here's a great article that examples the Cherokee Princess thing (http://www.allthingscherokee.com/atc_sub_gene_feat_020101.html)

Also When people claim some NA heritage they always say Cherokee. Even if they were raised and family was raised in a part of the US that Cherokee did not live.

I noticed that, I wonder why. Why not Apache? Navaho? Or something lesser know?

It does turn out that I am 1/2 Cherokee, my father is full. His father (my grandfather and his twin sister) were adopted off the reservation and they moved to Alaska and Michigan and other areas...the never stayed in the "Cherokee area".
My fathers sister as all the famly info...blood quanities and such. We are NA and we are Cherokee. So I have a good reason to say I am Cherokee.

[/quote]Also I know the Cherokee Nation accepts anyone with at least 1/16th blood...perhaps they're more lax than other Nations and therefore more people can claim that tribe?
In addition, many Indian tribes include their own quantum restrictions. The Eastern Band of the Cherokees requires that you be 1/16 or higher to join, and the Keetowah band requires a blood quantum of 1/4 or higher. The Cherokee Nation, on the other hand, has no quantum restrictions. The majority of the Cherokee Nation has 1/4 or less Indian blood. When considering these numbers it is important to remember that the Cherokee were in direct contact with white settlers prior to the American Revolution. Many prominent Cherokee families included intermarried whites very early on. The Ward family -- descendents of Nancy and Bryant Ward (an Englishman) -- is a good example. My own ancestor, Granny Hopper (daughter of Old Hop), married a Scottish trader (McDaniel). The Cherokee people have been intermarrying with whites for over two hundred years, so many families have some very confusing fractions to spit out every time someone asks, "How much Indian are you?"
*
Never mind -- that blood quantum is completely irrelevant to Cherokee culture. Throughout history the Cherokee people have believed that if you're Cherokee, you're Cherokee. If you're not, you're not. Percentage doesn't matter. In addition, many people now make a distinction between quantum Cherokees and cultural Cherokees. How Cherokee you are is more determined by how you live, how active you are in the tribe, how you grew up, and what you know of Cherokee history, culture, and language.
http://www.allthingscherokee.com/atc_sub_gene_feat_040101.html (http://www.allthingscherokee.com/atc_sub_gene_feat_040101.html) -- good article about blood qualities


So according to this you can be Cherokee and not be a blood Cherokee as long as you live your live in a Cherokee way. THe only problem is those claiming to be princesses, aren't even aware of what Cherokees are about because they'd know there is no such thing.
Though I think many non-blooded Cherokees who take the time to learn and reseach and all of that have the right to call themselves Cherokee.



Is it possible some may just think it is cool to claim Native heritage and pick Cherokee most likely it's the only Native tribe or nation they have heard of.


I'm sure a small percentage of people do that.
But I think most of them can trace some NA in their blood. The Cherokees did migrate (Trail of Trears) though many states and many fanned out to other places. It's a huge possiblity that all these people are part Cherokee.


Could this be the same case? A "Native" Fluffy claiming a heritage that just isn't there?


Sure. There can be "Fluffies" of any path. When I was researching the Cherokee beliefs and religion I came across some crap. Cherokee Princess this, Priestess that. It's not real. There we no such thing.

I went on to this message board (will not name it) because I found some decent things on there and said I was 1/2 Cherokee in my intro-- they said "yeah right" and told me to go to this thread with this other chick that claimed she was a Cherokee Princess. It pisses me off. She ruined it for everyone else.

I have no problem with people who really have NA or Cherokee blood in them to claim that they do...it is their right, but if they don't it makes it harder of all of us that do.

I also have no problem with those who adopt NA beliefs and such as long as it's respectful and you know what your doing and why (as in research and research).

ETA: I also wanted to add that I don't tell people I'm Cherokee unless someone asks about ancestry, ancerstal paths, genelogy and things like that. If I'm looking up info in Grandmother Spider I might mention it, but for everything else I don't.
I don't feel much of a connection to that part of my genes, I never learned the Cherokee ways or anything. Neither did my father. It's really hard trying to learn them online as well.
I'm also part Russian/Ukrainian and German from my mother's side...out those I feel closer to the Slavic.
Anyway, my point was....I don't know. Basically I don't feel the need to shout it out to everyone.

[weaverwoman]

He appearently doesn't have much respect for people who call themselves "Indian" based only on a bit of DNA.

I agree with this. Though I have NA heritage, I would never call myself Native American. I have documents attesting to my heritage but I am not a documented member of any tribe, so how could I? I might say I am of NA and Scots-Irish blood or I might say I am a mutt.....


a quick edit: I read this article a few years ago and just found it on the net... I think it has an intresting perspective on the original question of NA fluffy:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/391.html

[Baye]

I agree with this. Though I have NA heritage, I would never call myself Native American. I have documents attesting to my heritage but I am not a documented member of any tribe, so how could I? I might say I am of NA and Scots-Irish blood or I might say I am a mutt.....


a quick edit: I read this article a few years ago and just found it on the net... I think it has an intresting perspective on the original question of NA fluffy:
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/41/391.html

Thanks for the link. It was a very interesting read. Amazing what one can learn from askin questions!!!


Baye

[kheretsenu]

While I am part Cherokee (and part M'iq-M'aq - how's that for obscure?) I don't run around proclaiming it to everyone. Still, those great-great grandmothers (it is usually a female relative, due to white settlers marrying Native women) are important ancestors to me - in Kemetic thought, all ancestors are important, back to the dawn of time.

But anyway, I do get very annoyed at the erroneous use of the word "princess" amongst other things. One big one is phony spiritualists trying to make it sound like there was one big "Native American culture." Heck, I dislike the word Native American for that reason - can't we call people Hopi, or Hocunk, or Tlingit?

Because each tribe/group is a completely different culture than the others. A member of the Haida tribe would be able to talk to you about the Raven, but wouldn't hold any special significance to the buffalo or a medicine wheel. Just because I know a lot of info about the Northwest Coast tribes (personal interest) doesn't give me any authority to speak of the Plains.

And don't get me started on the doe-eyed Pocahontas stereotype, or the Noble Savage, or.... :rant:

[Qeniheru]

I have Cherokee heritage myself (1/8), but that is very common for people who originate from Eastern Kentucky like myself. In m y hometown, I would probably say 90% have Cherokee blood in them. But I also don't walk around saying I am Native American. I am currently researching their culture, as one of my primary goals is to learn about everything that I can when it comes to my path as well as my ancestral heritage-I want to know, to understand. That and I love to absorb information. :hahugh:

[Djiril]

Here is an interesting article about why an ancestor might have been remembered as a "Cherokee Princess":
http://www.native-languages.org/princess.htm

In any event, unless you have a record that your ancestor was the daughter of a chief (or, more rarely, a Beloved Woman or other important female personage), she probably was not. That doesn't mean she wasn't a "real" Indian, though. The "princess" part was probably simply appended to the family story about her at some point. It doesn't have any bearing on whether she herself actually existed or not.

[semi]

My two cents.

I know many Native Americans. Related to some through through marriage (not mine, but my sister's). Being in New York, I know a lot of Mohawk and Seneca. Some Iroquois. And I have friends from other Native nations here and there, like in Florida, the Midwest, the Southwest, and Canada. And I have been a student of a Lakota shaman. I have met one or two people who have claimed to be of Cherokee blood, but I have never had a reason to doubt them and I have never experienced an inordinate number of Natives claiming to be Cherokee. I guess I'm just not meeting the right people.

[Garm]

If you want a comphrehensive view of the "Native American" new age Fluff phenomena this low down is quite thorough:

http://muse.jhu.edu/demo/american_indian_quarterly/v024/24.3aldred.html

[halfwaynowhere]

i'm 1/32 cherokee, or so i'm told, although at one point i think we were told it was navajo, not cherokee... my mother's great-great grandmother was irish, she ended up being pregnant with a cherokee man's baby, and so they stole horses, and ran off and got married on horseback. so we aren't entirely sure that he was really cherokee, but it doesn't really matter much. but i understand your point, i've met so many people who said they were cherokee. funny, because you used to have to be 1/16 or more in order to be considered native american, but from what i understand, there are so few cherokees around, that they have changed it to 1/32... i'm not sure how accurate that is, though...

[omar]

Most Amercans saw the Cherokee Trail of Tears ,so that is he only tribe they know of. When Izick Zane marred the Wyandot chiefs daughter at Wapacuneta, Ohio about 1790 the white people refered to her as an Indian Princess but not the natives.

[Malcolm]

We mostly only have Potowatamie(sp?) and Kickapoo around here...a few Arapaho. I don't think I've ever met anyone claiming Cherokee heritage around here. Usually its one of those three tribes.

The school I went to was right between two reservations so we had more than our share of people with native american heritage. Not that it rteally maters. Just thought I'd share.


Oh, and fry bread rocks.

[Morgandria]

Agreed! Fry bread rocks!

[jcldragon]

The Native Americans I've spoken with, call them Twinkies : White people who adopt the motif of Native American clothes & jewelry, but don't really know anything about Native American Shamanism.

In 1975, I was crossing the desert on foot in New Mexico, when I was picked up hitchhiking by two Braves, who took me out to their Reservation. There I met their Holy Man, and partook of the Peyote Ceremony. We had a wonderful conversation while on the Peyote Road in the Spirit World, and afterwards their Holy Man announced that I was a Road Man for the White people.

I don't claim to follow this Tradition, although I do respect it. I'm not a part of their culture, although I do employ some Shamanic means in my own Practice. I grow the Sacred San Pedro cactus, as an ornamental plant, but I do not consume it, since that is illegal, and I can recieve the Wisdom of the Spirit Plants by meditating near them. I've made friends with the crows in my neighborhood, and speak with them in their own language. When I am out in the woods, I don't make a lot of noise, like most White people do.

I also study Qabala, but I'm sure not Jewish. I'm familiar with Western Occultism, but don't claim to be a New Ager (anymore). I also employ Buddhist & Taoist practices, and am working on my own translation of the I Ching, but I cannot say that I follow those Traditions either. I learn from all of the Traditions, because each is superior to all of the others in at least one thing... which leaves me with no convenient label, as if that really mattered...

[Malcolm]

Everybody always talks about shamanism in relation to native americans.

What about the drum damn it!

[Morgandria]

I think what most people in the US considers "Native" is Plains Indian spirituality, and it really has no bearing on my own experience. My family is Metis.

Most Native spirituality and culture here in Ontario is Ojibwe, 6 Nations, or Cree. Even there you have a lot of room, since the Ojibwe have many different clans, the 6 Nations are different tribes, and the Cree differ from place to place - you have Woodland Cree, Swampy Cree, Plains Cree. It's all a matter of location and cultural context.

The only "shamans" I know are all white. I've never heard anyone Native use the word. I know people in medicine societies. I have met elders, drummers, and dancers. This to me is what Native spirituality is. Shamanism is an import from Siberia.

[Shanti]

Everybody always talks about shamanism in relation to native americans.

What about the drum damn it!
Not everyone!! Shaman is a term from 'Siberia' not N. America!!!
I always correct people but they still make this mistake. NA's didnt use the word Shaman.

[Malcolm]

The only "shamans" I know are all white. I've never heard anyone Native use the word. I know people in medicine societies. I have met elders, drummers, and dancers. This to me is what Native spirituality is.

I agree, not that I'm an authority on it or anything. To me when I think of native american spirituality the first thing that comes to mind is not a shaman or medicine man. Its singing, dancing and laughing with family. That was my experience anyway.

[ShadowcatX]

Many reasons, first Cherokees are one of the largest tribes, either second or third in the U.S. I believe. Secondly, they're a "civilized" tribe, and many did marry settlers. Third, Cherokees have spread out, Cherokee country used to be out to the east, now the capital of the Cherokee Nation is Tahelquah. Many Cherokees moved out to California in an effort to get better lives for themselves and their families.

However, you do have to have Cherokee blood (or be a descendant of a freedman ATM) to be considered Cherokee, and the tribe is attempting to change the law allowing freedmen to join.

www.cherokeenation.org is the tribe's official website.

[ravenscape]

Most of us don't live in the same community as our ancestors did. We may not even live in the same state as our parents. The Cherokee were split up and dispersed as a result of the Trail of Tears. A elder friend who lives near me is Cherokee, and was raised on a Cherokee reservation in the south. She now lives in CA, as do her son, granddaughters and great-granddaughters. Are they less Cherokee as a result of her long ago move to the West?

Obviously a rhetorical question.

As for the "princess" title -- no doubt it was easier to explain years ago than than "Leader's Daughter", "Shaman's Daughter", etc.

[Garden of Eden]

While I am part Cherokee (and part M'iq-M'aq - how's that for obscure?)

I'm about one hundreth M'iq-M'aq... :hehehehe: My mother is adopted, so we had particular trouble following up on her roots, but the documentation regarding her birth mother stated that the entire family was from that tribe. Though my mother indentifies herself as Irish nowadays (don't think she's ever called herself NA, or claimed any right to do so, but she does mention it in passing when people comment on how dark she is-- which has absoloutely nothing to do with it really, but hey!)

[Djiril]

However, you do have to have Cherokee blood (or be a descendant of a freedman ATM) to be considered Cherokee, and the tribe is attempting to change the law allowing freedmen to join.
What's ATM? :huh:

[Agaliha]

I don't know what ATM means in the Native American context, but AIM is the American Indian Movement. Maybe a typo?

[ShamanFeather]

Happens all the time. Plastic shamans and white medicine frauds. There are always going to be people who prefer the idealized versions of Native spirituality, rather than the truths of it, simply because they don't want to be told they can't pursue certain things because they're not Native.

For their part, a lot of Native groups don't understand why whites try to appropriate a culture that isn't theirs, and why they don't look up their own ancestry for answers.

When seeking out answers from the native culture, non natives are told to go someone else, and then are shunned for their ignorance.

So many of the cultures today have lost their roots, some to corperate, some because they melted together. the natives seem to have elders, people who know the histories, I don't have anyone like that. I know a little, very little, and studying it from a textbook is about as good as me studying native american history from a textbook. it isn't the same thing.

if the native way of life is good, why can't people who aren't born to the right people learn it? if we were taught, we wouldn't have to guess.

[semi]

Not everyone!! Shaman is a term from 'Siberia' not N. America!!!
I always correct people but they still make this mistake. NA's didnt use the word Shaman.


Yep. But it's term that people understand in relation to a certain set of skills and lifestyle. It isn't the appropriate term, but it's the easy go-to term for explanation.

[Morgandria]

So many of the cultures today have lost their roots, some to corperate, some because they melted together. the natives seem to have elders, people who know the histories, I don't have anyone like that. I know a little, very little, and studying it from a textbook is about as good as me studying native american history from a textbook. it isn't the same thing.

I never said it was right. I just said it's the way it is. I'm Metis. I happen to be pale white and redhaired. I get treated like I'm white by some people, and am accepted as Native-blooded by others. That's fine. My mother, on the other hand, is dark skinned, dark haired, dark eyed. She gets treated like a Native by most, and gets funny looks if she introduces me as her daughter.

People are people - some good, some rotten.

We have our own religions and our own heritage; That's pretty much how they feel about it. It's not just something they decide to follow - it's their culture and way of life. We've already appropriated their land and their traditional lifestyles, and gone as far as deride them as savages for their beliefs in the past. Honestly, I am not surprised those elders who remember the residential schools and the shame we put on them merely for being 'savage' could never concieve of teaching a non-Native the traditional ways. And there are still a lot of those people still living and teaching.

There will always be people who are willing to accept those who aren't Native to join their spirituality, and there will always be people who tell non-Natives to go find something more culturally appropriate. Inclusive and exclusive groups exist in any religion.

It might not be easy for some of us, no matter what our "race", to find our cultural roots. But not everyone will be willing to "adopt" you into theirs, either.

[Teresa]

I never said it was right. I just said it's the way it is. I'm Metis. I happen to be pale white and redhaired. I get treated like I'm white by some people, and am accepted as Native-blooded by others. That's fine. My mother, on the other hand, is dark skinned, dark haired, dark eyed. She gets treated like a Native by most, and gets funny looks if she introduces me as her daughter.

People are people - some good, some rotten.

We have our own religions and our own heritage; That's pretty much how they feel about it. It's not just something they decide to follow - it's their culture and way of life. We've already appropriated their land and their traditional lifestyles, and gone as far as deride them as savages for their beliefs in the past. Honestly, I am not surprised those elders who remember the residential schools and the shame we put on them merely for being 'savage' could never concieve of teaching a non-Native the traditional ways. And there are still a lot of those people still living and teaching.

There will always be people who are willing to accept those who aren't Native to join their spirituality, and there will always be people who tell non-Natives to go find something more culturally appropriate. Inclusive and exclusive groups exist in any religion.

It might not be easy for some of us, no matter what our "race", to find our cultural roots. But not everyone will be willing to "adopt" you into theirs, either.
This is why I have always checked other for race. I am a mixture of things, a Heniz 57. I never felt that I fitted into one nice neat package and proally never will except to say I am a human being and I have a diverse heritage and I embrace all parts of it.

[Kendrah]

I think it has to do with it being more "authentic", or some crap. I am a mutt, I know I have a drop of NA blood in me, though it can't be proven -- I just know the same way that I knew I have an spanish (Spain) Lord in my famile, which was proven ten years after I said it. *shrugs*

Does that make me NA? Nope. Not in the slightest. I think the culture you grow up with makes you what you are, not your blood. So I view myself as american.

[ShadowcatX]

What's ATM? :huh:

At the moment. The Cherokees are trying to ammend the Constitution to disallow Freedmen and their descendants from entering the tribe.

[Viseux]

Forgive me if this has already been said (I just didn't feel like working through all the responses) but the vast majority of people who make such claims have no native blood what so ever. It's complete fantasy.
Blessings,
Viseux

[proxieme]

I haven't read this whole thing (so excuse this if it's a repeat), but there may in be at least a little part of tacking "Cherokee" on everything that's innocent:

When looking at a lot of old records of marriages (if you can find them at all), they can be...vague.
For instance, in my case there're a couple instances of the listing being
So-and-So Bartlett wed to Cherokee Man.
My guess is that in those instances you had someone in back when saying, "Whatchoo, boy? You Indian? OK, so...*writes* Cher-o-kee M-a-n."
And then their kids are all named "Smith".

That being said, I still look a little askance at people who glom onto one part of their heritage over the others simply because one part's cooler or "more esoteric" than the others. ("I'm Celtic! I'm American Indian!")
If you feel a legitimate pull, that's one thing, but so many seem to simply be seeking meaning because they feel themselves to be in a cultural void.
(Wow, when it's put that way, though, who can blame them?)

As for me, I've "Cherokee" in my ancestry (like 1/2 of the other white people in the South East), and also Blackfoot and Crow (we're guessing from kids who were shipped east - the line of that knowledge has died with those who have already gone, unfortunately). If you want to get down to brass tacks, I've also an abundance of Irish and Scottish.
I feel drawn to all of them to some extent - they're all part of my heritage and my ancestry, however murky and buried in the mists of time those may be - but I don't go claiming that I'm "Scottish" or "Blackfoot".
I wasn't raised in any of those traditions, and to claim otherwise stinks of unworthiness and dishonor.

[Forever Your Ragdoll]

Well, that sounds kind of obnoxious. I mean, I actually am Native American, though not much. And my great great great grandfather was an Indian chief, but I'd hardly consider myself a 'Princess' lol. People just need something to claim for themself I guess.

[Lovehound]

I don't mean people who have adopted NA beliefs. I support that 100% I myself have followed a belief that does not date back to my own heritage.

There just seems to be a blood claiming that may not be all that authentic.
I also agree on the Celtic thing. Believe it or not all Irish people are of Celtic blood. In fact you can find more people with Celtic heritage in northern Italy & Parts of Russia!!!

Yes, this is because many people don't seem to realize that the group that spoke GAELIC spanned a HUGE swath of Europe, as far east as the Persian border and as far south as, well, pretty much all the way down the Italian peninsula.

It's also not likely they would have called themselves "Celts." That word comes from the Greek "keltoi" but a better word for them might be "tuath" or "tuatha." It's very similar to the Germanic word (here we go with cultures and languages again) "teuton" which is likely what the "Germanii" called themselves. Tacitus is the one who came up with the term "Germanii" if memory serves.

See what I mean...it does matter.

[Lunar_Dragonfly]

I actually do have legitimate cherokee ancestry. But only one and that was several generations back ... making me, I believe, 1/16 or 1/32nd or something infinitesimally small, so I don't claim to be native american. I do like Southwestern Native artwork and my parents house is decorated with a lot of Native art (since we live in the West) but that doesn't mean anything. Just because you're not Native doesn't mean you can't admire them from afar or purchase the pots and jewelry they lay out to sell on blankets in Santa Fe <3 Doesn't mean I have any interest in Native spirituality, though. I don't understand though why it's okay for Native Americans to be protective of their religion against "outsiders" (non native americans) but when Asatru and others do the same thing they are racist.

[Carla O'Harris]

Happens all the time. Plastic shamans and white medicine frauds. There are always going to be people who prefer the idealized versions of Native spirituality, rather than the truths of it, simply because they don't want to be told they can't pursue certain things because they're not Native.

For their part, a lot of Native groups don't understand why whites try to appropriate a culture that isn't theirs, and why they don't look up their own ancestry for answers.


Their "own" ancestry? What does that mean? How far back should one go? Because if we go back far enough, then maybe we should all be looking to Africa for answers. And that would be fine by me

[Sequoia]

Their "own" ancestry? What does that mean? How far back should one go? Because if we go back far enough, then maybe we should all be looking to Africa for answers. And that would be fine by me
I really dislike this kind of argument. In case you haven't noticed, some of us haven't had family in Africa for tens of thousands of years. I have absolutely no connection to Africa, whatsoever. In fact, I don't always 100% ascribe to the current human evolutionary theories.

What they mean when they say that is, "Why does this yuppie white kid want to come down and 'play indian'?"

[Carla O'Harris]

I really dislike this kind of argument. In case you haven't noticed, some of us haven't had family in Africa for tens of thousands of years. I have absolutely no connection to Africa, whatsoever. In fact, I don't always 100% ascribe to the current human evolutionary theories.

What they mean when they say that is, "Why does this yuppie white kid want to come down and 'play indian'?"


Maybe the yuppie white kid lives on the American continent and is seeking some kind of connection with the local land wights and their spirituality.

[Sequoia]

Maybe the yuppie white kid lives on the American continent and is seeking some kind of connection with the local land wights and their spirituality.
-_-; I think you're missing the point.

A yuppie white kid wouldn't be the one trying to learn spirituality, he'd be the one wanting to add to his "book of spells" from "a real shaman!" to brag to his other little buddies about.

[David19]

Maybe the yuppie white kid lives on the American continent and is seeking some kind of connection with the local land wights and their spirituality.

That his 'yuppie white' ancestors had stolen from the Native American's, and basically tried to destroy their beliefs, religion, etc so it's no wonder than the Native American's don't want people coming into their religion, if their not serious (like Jew's, they don't want to convert people, in fact they try and stop people converting and only take sincere people, which is one of the reasons why Judaism was never a big religion).

[Carla O'Harris]

That his 'yuppie white' ancestors had stolen from the Native American's, and basically tried to destroy their beliefs, religion, etc so it's no wonder than the Native American's don't want people coming into their religion, if their not serious (like Jew's, they don't want to convert people, in fact they try and stop people converting and only take sincere people, which is one of the reasons why Judaism was never a big religion).

Actually, Judaism was really big on conversion.

I understand that there is a lot of history here that must be faced up to. All I'm saying is that a lot of assumptions are being made here. People seeking a connection to the land and to the traditions of that land should not automatically be slandered as engaging in some kind of appropriation. It must be taken on a case-by-case basis. I also question the entire concept of cultural appropriation, as cultures borrow from each other all the time. That seems like a really modern concept.

[Tanya]

My family has a tradition on my paternal grandmother's side of being part NA, but they don't really remember where or how, just some almost 'folk tales' of one of her grandparent's being a black sheep, going to Oklahoma, and comming back with a wagonload of "Indian looking kids" People with these kind of family legends, well, we just don't know, certainly Grandma and her sister looked like the could be... but who knows... and where does that leave us? Saying stupid things like 'I might have some Cherokee blood...' For myself... I just don't say it, since I don't know.

My paternal great grandfather came from Poland. All of them look like Mongolian(my self included)... but I also don't go around saying I'm a descendent of the Golden Horde... I guess both are just as likely.

Being American is a mixed up muddled thing... The only honorable thing to do is admit... we are a pack of muts, and not put on any airs.

[jcldragon]

Currently, I'm reading The Lonesome Gods by Louis L'Amour. It's a Western Saga, and completely fiction. One of the ideas I'm finding in the book, is that the Native People have a great deal of Wisdom, and we would do well to be aware of it. If you aren't significantly Native American, then you can't become one. However, what you can do, is to hear what these people have to say, especially because they have a great deal to say, and we would all be wiser if we listened.

Isn't it a lot more honest to simply be a friend?