Excerpt from a "Real Men Don't Rape" bookmark.

[The Suckling]

"-Taking sexual advantage of a person who is mentally or physically incapable of giving consent (for example, drunk) is rape. If a woman has had too much to drink and has passed out, or is not in control of herself, having sex with her is rape.

-The fact that you were intoxicated is not a legal defense to rape. You are responsible for your actions whether you are sober or not."

[Old Witch]

I find very little humor in this post!

[Flaire-FireStar]

:eyebrow: True....but not funny... :eyebrow:

[Twilight Garden]

While it's not really funny, it is a bit contradictory. I don't think rape is something to be toyed with. The persons drinking the alcohol should stop drinking when they get to a certain point. Both parties. I personally think "I was drunk" is a very lame excuse. Again for both parties. But the law is the law. Can't really argue with it.

I have many friends who have hated themselves in the morning after sleeping with someone they would never have slept with sober. But they certainly don't call it rape, they call it a drunken mistake.

[Myst]

Nope, not funny at all.

[mol]

Hmm. I was coming to move this to Just Silly, but now I think not.

Why did you post this?

[Angelwulfe]

hmmm, i think i'd have to agree with the rest of y'all. that really isn't funny at all. it's sad and disturbing. i'd highly recomend you delete this thread. :(

[NeoPhoenix]

Yeah that was definitely not funny, I know someone that was raped and there is nothing funny about it. Even if you had posted an actual joke on rape it still wouldn't be humorous.

[Sequoia]

what in hell is funny about this?

next thing you know, you'll be posting things like "well, when you touch a little kid, that's pedophelia. It's against the law." or something stupid like that. NONE of this is funny!

NONE OF IT!!!!

[flar7]

Perhaps you should edit your post. The subject line in particular.
It is offensive and disrespectful of people who have been raped,
and they would find no humor in your subject title.

If you do not respond, I fear it may be edited for you or deleted.

~Flar7, a concerned moderator of this forum.

[JuNiPeR]

I don't see what could be funny about that. There isn't anything funny about rape...... :(

[Kaylara]

OK, why don't we try to turn this into a constructive thread. Thoughts on the excerpts from the book?

Kaylara

[Myst]

Seems to me to be too close to "she said no but her body said yes" - ie. "if you're drunk and you flirt with me you asked for it".

I mean I don't get that drunk but people who do shouldn't be treated as though having a good time is synonymous with leaving yourself open to being raped.

[Kaylara]

Well, no matter what... If the girl says "No" drunk or not, it means no, stop, cease, desist. It doesn't matter if she is drunk and she is saying no, and you think that her body is saying yes. Hate to say it, but your judgement is probably impaired as well, and therefore cannot really tell what any part of her is REALLY saying.

Kaylara

[flar7]

both sides of a barbed fence....
what if she is drunk and says yes, but later realizes she meant no
and that it was the alcohol that impaired her judgement? Is it still
rape? Or is she as responsible for making that erroneous decision
as the driver who drives drunk? Impaired judgement, how far do
you let it slide, or do you at all?

[Myst]

any guy who takes advantage of a girl who is so drunk she doesn't know the difference between yes and no is a sleazeball.

Is it as black and white as if she said yes she can't claim rape, if she said no she can? What about someone who is coerced, harassed, battered, etc.? I think there are people who, tho they said yes, felt they were beaten into it and didn't really have a choice.

[Xander67]

ok then, that being said ladies,

here are a few thoughts i have from a Man's point of view

If a woman is drunk or high, to me that means her reasoning is possible impaired (no matter what some Tough drinkers may think) so if her body is saying "yes" is it ethical or even moral
to satisfy her human need based on this, knowing full well she would not give consent if she was sober...

second...there are alot of smoothe talkers out there, *smiles
but I would feel like a jerk knowing that I used wit and reason to trick a girl into haveing sex jsut cause "we both wanted it"

mabey so , mabey not, but I guess im old fashioned in that respect...key word RESPECT....

but apparently the rules have changed....

yes I did find this thread offensive at first...VERY offensive I may add...but then it is up to us adults to set an example for the younger ones who post crap like that, to them it may or may not be funny..but thats what being a kid is all about, learning I guess :)

[flar7]

so, if out drinking dont have sex?

[Myst]

Originally posted by Xander67
so if her body is saying "yes" is it ethical or even moral
to satisfy her human need based on this, knowing full well she could not give consent if she was sober...

Ethical, no. But legal...?

[Xander67]

that is a good question...

I think, if out drinking, when it comes to sex,
there are a few things to consider...

would she do it with you without haveing been drinking
what are her views on sex etc...

I would want to be certian I was not violating any free will or crossing any lines...especially legal ones

[Xander67]

well in NJ ,

it is totally Illegal to my knowledge

I agree with you about the sleezeball comment :)

[Twilight Garden]

I thought the point of this thread was that both parties are drunk and neither (because of excessive drinking) has the ability to make a reasonable judgement call. It sounds to me as if you are all assuming the wo/man intentionally took advantage of a drunk wo/man. There are circumstances where the accused genuinely thinks they are both into it and consenting because s/he's drunk too. I completely understand that it is not right to take advantage of an intoxicated individual. That is not what I'm speaking of, though. And I do agree that there are alot of sleazeballs out there.

[flar7]

thats what I mean, if you drink, dont have sex? Or, if you get
drunk, dont have sex? Most people would have a problem with
that, and I mean "most people" as in the ones who go out to
get drunk cause its fun for them.

[Flaire-FireStar]

Originally posted by flar7
so, if out drinking dont have sex?

That's what I'd say pretty much.... :)

[Myst]

I think there were two points there.

First, if the woman is drunk, and you have sex with her while she's incapable of giving consent it's rape.

And second, if you're drunk and you force her, it's rape.

Meaning if she's drunk she's not supposed to be responsible for having sex, but if *you* are drunk you're responsible for you having sex. A double standard almost.

[Xander67]

well then this opens up another issue perhaps...

if we know what could happen as a result of getting drunk
and a man and a woman make the choice to drink and get drunk knowing what could happen.........

say they have sex, and then in the morning when the sun shines through the window and wakes them up, realiseing what they have done....ok get where im going with that??

[flar7]

well down at the clinic they got that story in cartoon form, except
its about STDs.

If you are both drunk, it sux, but I would call it a break even.
Both behaved incorrectly(if you view it that way) and there should
be no legal recourse.(This is assuming that both drunks said yes!)

[Flaire-FireStar]

:rolleyes: And so the abortion thought comes into play...



I think I'll steer clear of this one now....

[Xander67]

:eek:
Flaire, why did you go there LOL

[Myst]

Starting to sound like an episode of Springer.

But then if a woman is going to get an abortion she is going to; regardless of whether her partner or her were drunk when she got pregnant.

[Flaire-FireStar]

:rolleyes: Well it's true.. If you don't want the kid then... (continue on as you please..) But some people think abortion is killing the child. That's their views... Then there's the other people who don't give a hoot... But I'll just stick to my views with alchohol & sex not mixing. ;)

[GingerBurkley]

Why would a man want to have sex with a woman who's too drunk to really know what's going on? How is that a turn on? Once my husband and I had a party at our house, and it went really well. After everyone left he wanted to make love. I was really drunk and being so silly, he just gave up. He couldn't enjoy it and he told me he didn't want to try when I was acting like that. I kind of felt sorry for him cuz he really wanted to but I couldn't stop giggling. He's never forced me to do anything, even though he's a big guy and could easily overpower me. No matter what, I think if the girl is really drunk, the guy should take the initiative and say, let's do this another time. But in fairness to a guy, if she's really trying hard to give it up even when he tries to resist, I don't know. Even if she's drunk, if she's coming on to him in a major way, not many guys would pass up the opportunity. What's the defense? We all have to take responsibility for our actions. But the bottom line for me once again is, why would you want to have sex with someone who's really drunk? And why, WHY would you use force to get someone to have sex with you when they're resisting? I just don't get it. Oh, by the way, Theoricus didn't appear to be joking about anything. I don't think that was the original intent at all, it was just conversation.

[MidnightSun]

There is NOTHING funny about that at all. I know quite a few people who have been raped and it isn't right to joke about something as serious as that. Sorry, but i think people should re-think what they are doing before they post something like that.:mad:

[Myst]

Originally posted by Flaire
Well it's true.. If you don't want the kid then... (continue on as you please..) But some people think abortion is killing the child. That's their views... Then there's the other people who don't give a hoot... But I'll just stick to my views with alchohol & sex not mixing.

Yes it is true if people are against abortion they are, period. So it's kind of a separate discussion.

[Illuminatus]

You are all sexist pigs. Men can be raped too. Quit saying "her" and "him", you conservative tools of the patriarchy!

[Xander67]

:eek: ut oh, he is right....

um, Im gonna step outta the way now before I get hit with a stray arrow here:cool:

[Old Witch]

I think everyone here will agree it goes both ways......rape is rape no matter which gender is at fault........there are lots of agressive strong women out there.......but because something is worded badly doesn't make it funny..........

[NeoPhoenix]

Illuminatus, I was actually thinking the same thing. No one ever thinks of a man being abused in any form. If a man actually said he was raped I doubt anyone would take him seriously.

As for the drinking and sex thing I think it depends on how much they had to drink. If they are just buzzed but can still make rational decisions and agree to sex it's ok, but once they become incapable of making any rational decisions it just becomes immoral.

[Myst]

I just hate typing "him or her" or "he or she" every other word.

And for the record one of my male friends was raped. So yes I know it happens. :rolleyes:

[Myst]

You don't intend to post that graphic with every post and link to the URL in your sig too I hope?

[NeoPhoenix]

Nope now that I have the url I don't need the atachment anymore, though this coversation isn't really apropriat for this thread don't you think.

[Myst]

I'm pretty sure me asking a question and you answering it won't ruin the thread :D

[Myst]

Yes and now we're trying to turn it into a constructive conversation...

[Illuminatus]

Originally posted by Myst
You don't intend to post that graphic with every post and link to the URL in your sig too I hope?

Yes I'm going to list my 5 favorite threads that I have started but actually list about 50, and the top one will be a poll about which one you liked the best!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[The Suckling]

No No NO people, you misunderstand! It's funny because it's a hypocritical double standard. I cerainly don't think rape is funny. In fact, I don't think that excerpt is even a demonstration of real rape. That's part of the "humor".

I'm sorry if that appeared tasteless.

[Yvonne Belisle]

Yes it is rape and a good example because many people still don't see it as such till it is applied to them. Try to think of it this way the human body has certain physical responses to touch if you are out cold and someone touches you in a manner that causes your body to react to them it doesn't mean that you would want to have sex. It could be a woman who is very ugly or you can't stand for whatever reason or it could be a man if you are passed out you have no say and no choice in the matter. IF you have not agreed to have intercourse it is rape period and dot no gray area here. The only times that a possitive answer could still be a negitive is if one of the parties involved does not understand the process involved for whatever reason or the age of one or more of the parties makes them unprepared for the long term possible effects or if there was any threat real or implied that caused one of the parties to say yes. IF none of those apply and both parties agreed and do not change thier minds then no rape occurs if one of those applies or a no answer or one of the parties was unable to reply and make a choice it is rape.

[The Suckling]

Everyone listen. The reason I found that passage funny is because it bassically says that if a woman is drunk she is not responsible for her actions, but if a man is drunk he is. It's sexist and whoever wrote it doesn't realize it. It's just like a black guy saying "white people are racist."

What surprises me is that I posted this exact same message on three other boards including an ultra-conservative Christian BBS and they all got the joke right away. I think there's something wrong with that picture.

I will only apologize for not explaining myself in the original post, even though I don't think I should have had to.

[Sequoia]

Suckling. . . I got the "joke" when I first read it. I noticed it.

It still wasn't funny. Learn something called taste. The way you write about these things, it makes you sound like some horny 14-year old boy without a clue. I know you must be more than that, there's more to you. So why not share your wonderful intelligent and debative side with us?

*****

If a girl and guy were drunk, and she said yes when it happened but regretted it later. . . too late, sister, you already did it. I feel bad for you, hell I could very well be in that situation some day. But if you say yes, the consiquences of that are YOURS to deal with, not whomever you decided to sleep with.

if the word no is spoken by male, female, whatEVER. . . no is no. Ie. nein. a great big resounding NEGATIVE. No means no. And that's final.

(then there's always the sad cases, when you weren't able to say anything at all. . . especially children. When the grownup tells you to do something, you can't really tell them no. . . *sighs*)

[Echohawk]

Rape. Is. Horrible.

no funniness there. I think it's a pretty stupid joke, written by someone with a lack-wit sense of humor. To be polite, anyrate.

There are very few clear black-and-white issues in life. . . but here is one of them. No=stop,do not do this, I don't want this, you MUST STOP NOW. . . regardless of situation. "Yes, then oops. . ." deal with it. If there's a child, you had better be responsible, and yes the man is expected to help with the child, but it's your own damned fault for being stupid and getting so intoxicated you couldn't help your body.

And no, I'm not just being a bitch about this. Been there. Done that. It's not plesant. And I have no sympathy for other women who made stupid choices. Perhaps they'll learn from theirs, as well. If they do. . .then I'd more than happily empathize. But if you just want to whine about not knowing or being drunk. . . don't look to me for sympathy! I'm not going to feel sorry for some whiney little girl in a woman's body who refused to take precautions or responsibility of any kind. Period.