The Problem of Evil...Pagan style

[seekerofknwoledge]

The age old question (quite baisically): Why do bad things happen to good people? Somebody brought up this question recently in the context of paganism (specifically Wicca), and it made me curious. What is the pagan's answer to it? I know pretty much everything that Christianity's said about it, but what about pagans? Any thoughts?

I guess I look at it as the way the world is. One interesting point about pagan religions is that they never claim that their divinities are "all good" or "all powerful." So, you don't run into the same problem necessarily that you do with Christianity. I see that there is a "way" to the world, a way that even the Gods don't alter. Not necessarily because they can't, but more because They don't want/need to. Like the idea of a balance between good and evil. There's no choice involved in who the balance uses to stay even (similar to natural selection, but it has less to do with the stronger vs. weaker aspect), it just happens to people. Even the Gods Themselves aren't entierly immune from this factor (reminiscent of the three fates in Greek mythology).

[Crysiira]

Well, I can't speak for Paganism as a whole, but my personal veiws on this is that bad things happen to good people to challenge us, teach us lessons, and make us stronger. I believe in reincarnation, and I believe that in each life, you are given different problems to deal with and learn from, until you have reached understanding. Right now I'm dealing with poverty issues and mental issues; though they aren't nearly as bad as they could be, which means I've already learned that lesson or I am to learn it further down the road. You know, as in I have either already overcome poverty and insanity and this is my reward, lesser poverty and lesser insanity. Or, this is gearing me up for the Big One. Hm... Anyway, that's my take. I could be totally and completely wrong. If wrong is possible in a thing like this.

[seekerofknwoledge]

Well, I can't speak for Paganism as a whole, but my personal veiws on this is that bad things happen to good people to challenge us, teach us lessons, and make us stronger. I believe in reincarnation, and I believe that in each life, you are given different problems to deal with and learn from, until you have reached understanding. Right now I'm dealing with poverty issues and mental issues; though they aren't nearly as bad as they could be, which means I've already learned that lesson or I am to learn it further down the road. You know, as in I have either already overcome poverty and insanity and this is my reward, lesser poverty and lesser insanity. Or, this is gearing me up for the Big One. Hm... Anyway, that's my take. I could be totally and completely wrong. If wrong is possible in a thing like this.

Very interesting. And no, I don't think that there's a definitive "right" or "wrong" when it comes to something like this.

[MoonDragn]

I don't think bad things happen to good people. Nobody is ever totally good or totally bad. However each of us is here to learn a lesson or experience something. Those life experiences happen because they are meant to happen.

[semi]

This is not a "pagan's" answer, just the viewpoint of someone who has experienced a lot of crap.

Crap happens to present an obstacle to be overcome, which then allows for the building of strength and wisdom. Bad things don't happen. Opportunities happen. Events are neutral. What you do with the event makes it good or bad.

Even things like being abused as a child or being raped are neutral events. You make them bad or good. You choose whether the event will crush you and dominate you and enslave you or whether it will make you stronger. You choose whether you are a victim or a fighter.

I have been attacked for this opinion and I probably will be again, but that is what I have learned and that is my opinion. Adversity and hardship are gifts that teach you to be stronger and more resourceful.

[Rhisiart]

As a pantheist and a part-time Taoist, I dont look to godly intervention or cause for why things happen in the Universe. I dont even believe in Good vs. Evil per sey. I believe in Law vs Chaos and Shit Happens. All things will happen to All people, good, bad or in-between. The only tests Im put thru are those that I myself put myself thru because I chose to experiment with my actions rather than using the wisdom and experience of those around me. If something bad happens to me it either my fault or because Im just in the wrong place at the wrong time. If something good happens, its either because of my efforts, the efforts of others or being in the right place at the right time.

Is there fate or destiny in that? I dont think so. In destiny or fate your guided to your end result regardless of what you do. Life is a series of events that are sometimes under your control, sometimes not. You can either go with the grain, against the grain or sit in the middle and spin a little hole for yourself. All things happen because they happen. Sometimes theres no reason to figure out WHY the dog bites, its only good to know that it DOES and to stay away. Many times we are too busy trying to figure out WHY or WHEN or IF instead of just trying to live in the now and enjoy this life we have, for it just may be the only one you get. The only blessing the Universe has given me is a place to exist in and for that Im thankful.

[RunningRiot]

My personal life theory is not to trust anyone, your family, your lover, your deity, even yourself, because that's the easiest way to get screwed over.

[ap Dafydd]

I would say that the reason stuff happens is because stuff happens, not because it's down to any sort of divine intervention.

If you're of a religion that believes in an omnipotent God with a track record of intervening in peoples' lives, then it's legitimate to ask the question "why has this happened to me?" because God can and does intervene and therefore could have intervened to stop it happening to me.

I don't see Paganism in that way. I see both the burden and the liberation as being the freedom to make your own choices and the responsibility to accept the consequences, within the context of a random world where, as I started off by saying, stuff happens.

gwyn eich byd

Ffred

[Cain]

Because.

Not the greatest answer ever, or the most comforting, or most insightful, but its the one that almost always works. Wrong place, wrong time and wrong circumstances. You got cancer? Maybe it has something to do with the power linesgoing over your house, or maybe your diet. Volcanic eruption destroyed your island? Not much can be done to avoid that, its part of how the world works.

I'm not even certain the gods exist in any tangible or effective measure anyway, so the "problem" is virtually non-existent for me. However, I can see it could be a problem for those with a belief in more "real" deities.

[debnmike]

This is not a "pagan's" answer, just the viewpoint of someone who has experienced a lot of crap.

Crap happens to present an obstacle to be overcome, which then allows for the building of strength and wisdom. Bad things don't happen. Opportunities happen. Events are neutral. What you do with the event makes it good or bad.

Even things like being abused as a child or being raped are neutral events. You make them bad or good. You choose whether the event will crush you and dominate you and enslave you or whether it will make you stronger. You choose whether you are a victim or a fighter.

I have been attacked for this opinion and I probably will be again, but that is what I have learned and that is my opinion. Adversity and hardship are gifts that teach you to be stronger and more resourceful.
This is put eloquently and is an excellent answer, semi!

I, too, don't have a "pagan" answer--I just believe that for every "bad" thing that happens to you at least 3 good things come of it (maybe not right this second, or next week, but at some point).

I've been really slammed for that viewpoint becuase it sounds very "sunshine and light" (and naive, I know). Really it's because I'm an optimist by nature--my glass is 1/2 full rather than 1/2 empty most of the time. Otherwise everything that happened/happens to me could be construed as "bad". As semi said, it's all in how you handle it and move forward with it.

Challenges are good, as they teach us lessons and make us stronger for the experience. If everything were "good", we would live lives of complacency, as we wouldn't ever have anything to overcome. Thus, that would ultimately make us lazy in not just a physical sense, but mentally and spritually as well.

[Philosophia]

Life's not meant to be easy. If it was, how do we grow as a person? How do we go beyond ourselves and learn how to break the limitations that we've placed upon ourselves?
Is there a force out there controlling it? I don't know. However, I do know that sh!t happens and that we just have to ride the wave, confronting all obstacles that come our way.

[moonbride]

I've been really slammed for that viewpoint becuase it sounds very "sunshine and light" (and naive, I know). Really it's because I'm an optimist by nature--my glass is 1/2 full rather than 1/2 empty most of the time. Otherwise everything that happened/happens to me could be construed as "bad". As semi said, it's all in how you handle it and move forward with it.

Challenges are good, as they teach us lessons and make us stronger for the experience. If everything were "good", we would live lives of complacency, as we wouldn't ever have anything to overcome. Thus, that would ultimately make us lazy in not just a physical sense, but mentally and spritually as well.

Slammed or not, I totally agree with this as well. I consider myself an optimist too (ok most of the time lol) and I drive my husband and kids crazy always telling them to "fill your glass" when they get the down and outs.

[Crystal Raven]

interesting to come across this now...

A wonderful woman we know just died, wonderful stable family, loving husband, a good bright 8 yr old son, church goers, good neighbours etc...she was nine months pregnant and everyone was excited about the new addition to the family and grandma just closed on a house around the corner to be nearby...she died in childbirth (the baby is fine)

I personally believe when in Heaven awaiting the next incarnation we make choices about that next life to some degree...lessons to learn, experiences to be had etc and others volunteer to be a part of that...husband, child whatever so this was a part of a grand design, meant to happen as it would, by our own choices.

[Meadhbh]

Well it depends on how you define good and evil. A lot of things happen because thats their time to happen and while we might not like them I won't call them evil. Hurricans for example happen due to weather and current conditions and people don't like them, you however can not call a hurrican in and of its self evil. People do acts that you can call evil but they do them out of their own free will and not because any cosmic force caused them to. They happen because thats what someone caused to happen and its all part of the plan of the universe to put things into motion that might not have happened otherwise.

[Shanti]

My perspective, because it just does!!
Because you cant have one without the other.
You cant know happy unless you know sad. Otherwise you have no comparison.

Stagnation happens when there are never any waves! :)

[cheddarsox]

"Bad" things don't happen to good "people". Things happen, people assign labels to them.

The same thing can happen to something not human...and it would be judged in an entirely different way.

In my experience, people use the terms bad/good to refer to things that are personally inconvenient/convenient to them.

dualism is a really useful tool...some of the time.

I use the terms myself, but I don't believe that they are "ultimately" true.

As I age, learn, etc. I often alter my own judgement about things that have happened in my life. Some things seemed really bad at the time...but looking back, I see the good that came from them. Some things seemed really good, but I see the bad that resulted from them.

cheddar

[Amelserru_halqu]

Shit happens. If you look hard enough you could analyze everything surrounding a situation and then you could find a reason for everything, but in the end, shit just happens. When it does you should try and overcome it and learn from it.

[Cat]

My own philosophy, as poorly thought out as it is, is pretty simple. The Gods aren't all knowing or all powerful. A lot of crap happens that they didn't make happen. Things do have a cause but as Cain said that's different from being intentional. Many things stink, and the best we can do is, as Morr said, to use them and try to make something good come out of them. But that doesn't make them less awful.

[Grimr]

I believe that bad things happen to good people because the higher the knowledge and wisdom one holds the higher the obstacles become.

Life is a obstacle that we must all learn from.


The higher the knowledge or power that a indivudal may hold there comes the higher consequences or obstacles that are set in front of us.

[jcldragon]

I believe that bad things happen to good people because the higher the knowledge and wisdom one holds the higher the obstacles become.

Life is a obstacle that we must all learn from.


The higher the knowledge or power that a indivudal may hold there comes the higher consequences or obstacles that are set in front of us.Skimming over the previous posts, like this one, I see that the question has already been answered quite well.

The Material World is a Realm of both Order & Chaos. There is a dynamic tension between the two, which generates obstacles. A good attitude to take towards these obstacles, is that they are here to make things interesting. With that attitude, you'll never be crushed by anything that happens, and are very likely to figure out the solution to anything that comes up.

An important Pattern I've noticed, shows when the major problems will arise. When a person drifts along through life, never questioning anything, and merely doing what they are told, and believing just what they are told to believe, then things seem to move fairly smoothly for them. BUT, such a person won't be making any Spiritual Advancement that way, since they are drifting along a negative stream.

Then, let's say that, that person notices that there is a whole lot more to Life, than they have been told, and they decide to find out what that is. It is at this point that they will stop flowing along with the negative stream, and begin to find out about the positive stream, and attempt to get into it. Guess what happens then? Muwhahahaha! I bet you've been here...

Between the positive stream, and the negative stream, there is a whole lot of turbulance. While in the negative stream, one doesn't really deal with their Karma very much at all, so it simply accumulates. But, when one decides to switch from the negative stream to the positive stream, then one becomes vulnerable to all sorts of calamities. At this point a person doesn't really know how the Universe operates, (so they don't know how to apply the Cosmic Laws properly), and suddenly they are exposed to the Momentum of everything that they had NOT been dealing with before.

So when a person first sets their feet upon The Path, they usually get creamed. I've been through it, and I've seen enough other people go through it, that I now recognize it as one of Life's Patterns. It really is quite dependable. As a matter of fact, that is what our species is going through right now on this planet. Humanity is on the verge of a Great Spiritual Awakening, and just as it is for an individual, so it is for all of us together. um... you've probably noticed. ;)

When a person emerges from the turbulence, having learned their lessons, then they enter into the positive stream. Living in the positive stream, is where you get to be consciously creative with the things that you do. This is a great Joy, but it is not without obstacles, since there is always that dynamic tension in the Material World, generated by the fact that this is a realm of both Order & Chaos. The challenges you meet on the positive stream, may be even greater, than what you deal with in the turbulence, but they exist on a wider scale beyond your personal Ego, and the rewards for solving them are the Brightest Blessings of all.

[Cat]

I had to post my reply well before I wanted to, because I had to get off the computer and get moving.

Also, I was reluctant to say more than I did, and working to find a way to questions others' philosophies without really insulting anyone, and of course failing. There's no way to have an opinion without pissing someone else off.

So here it is:

Humans find patterns. Where patterns don't exist, we look for them, and we create them. That's good for us in many ways, but bad in others. When we look for meaning, we find what we are looking for. We're all a little crazy that way.

Add to that tendency the following fact: in psychology there is something called the just-world hypothesis. What that is, is a label for the belief that many people seem to have in a just world. We tend to believe that things are and will be fair. When something bad happens to someone good, or to ourselves, it challenges that theory. We have to find a way to explain it, and we prefer not to change our base assumption that the world is just because its a comforting thought. That's why many people blame the victim in a rape, for instance. If I have a choice between concluding that my coworker got raped because she wore a skimpy outfit, or because shit happens and it could happen to me too, I will be a much happier person if I can believe the former. In fact, my coworker may believe it too--because that makes her attack more understandable and controllable. It means she can limit the danger she is in by only ever wearing full-body covering. And that's a reassuring because it gives her a measure of (false and illusory) control over the amount of danger she is in.

I know that I am not important. Not even at a species-level, let alone at a cosmic level. Not any more important than you, or the ants in my house I just had poisened, or the cow I ate part of last week. So the idea that some deity or deities would waste their time sitting down and deciding how to further my personal development doesn't really do much for me. When you add in there that their means of doing it is to send a lot of trouble my way, and maybe hurt or even kill some other beings, well, now I have a real problem.

Actually, I mean problems. Plural.

Because those other beings are just as important, or unimportant, as I am. Because any powerful being or god who acts that way is evil. And because I believe in free will and natural consequences.

Here's two stories, each illustrating an extreme.

Story 1:

In the town where I live there is a bagel store. Its a very good bagel store which makes its own bread and has more kinds of cream cheese under one roof than I have ever seen anywhere else.

One Sunday morning my friend and I decided to go get a breakfast of bagels. My friend--I'll call him E--has many fine characteristics. He also likes to complain. That morning he was complaining. All the way to the store, he told me that there would be a line out of the store and it would take us forever to get a bagel and all the freshest and best ones would be gone. By the time we reached the store his narrative had us gnawing on a week-old bagel apiece after standing in the snow for hours--and it was sunny.

There were, like, three people ahead of us when we got there.

E saw this, told me it was unheard-of and amazing that this had happened, and proclaimed that the Gods were taking care of us.

What I did not say to him--because my mouth was full of bagel--was that no god I worshipped would give 20 or 30 people hangovers, stubbed toes, flat tires or other perhaps more serious emergencies just so we wouldn't have a to wait for a few minutes on a line. Assuming the Gods exist, I think, and I certainly HOPE, that they are busy with other things.

Because as sacred and wonderful as this world is, there's a lot that could stand improving. And if the Gods are interventionist in the way E describes, then they could maybe do something about starvation, AIDS, global warming, war, poverty, child abuse, the plight of many wild animals losing their habitats and being hunted to extinction, the plight of pets being abandoned and starving or dying of exposure on the streets--and that's just the beginnings of my list.

Also because I follow the Crone. She isn't the kind to randomly screw over a couple dozen folks whose only crime was to want a bagel when I do. She's more the kind to tell me that if I want it, I have to pay for it, wait for it, and exersize the cream cheese off later.


Story 2:

I have a friend named D. I've known her since high school. She and her husband had desperately wanted a baby for years, and had done the in vitro thing several times. About two years ago, it worked and she had triplets. These are both wonderful people. They have good jobs. They live in a nice place. They were ready in every way to raise their kids. They are who you want your parents to be.

One of the babies was born with a mysterious rash. She was kept in the hospital for observation and then sent home. A little while later, more medical problems started. In a very short time, the baby was diagnosed with Langerhan's cell histiocytosis. LCH is a rare disease. No one knows much about it, including its causes. Its so rare that the government here in the USA does not fund research on it, because they can help more people by putting the monies elsewhere. That's how rare it is.

The baby lived about a year and a half. She was on chemotherapy for most of her life. She spent as much time in the hospital as out of it. She endured all the painful poking and prodding, seperation from her family and her parents, fasts before medical tests, major surgery and a bone marrow transplant. She had the best care in the country, one parent always by her side, and lots and lots of love.

She died anyway.

We all have crap in our lives. There are kids out there who have or had it as bad or worse than this baby did. I'm not saying otherwise. But I'd like to know what any of you think that was *for*. Who did it help? Does anyone really think the baby benefited from her ordeal? Or that losing a child is good for spiritual growth?

Any god who deliberately did something like that, no matter the rationalization, is just evil. I don't understand how it can be seen in any other way. Maybe those of you who believe in reincarnation might see it differently. But you still have to explain how the financial and emotional toll on her family is justifed. Because I just don't see it.

Fortunately I don't believe in any such deity. I don't think it works that way. I think that whatever gods were aware of the problem tried to fix it. They sent her the best doctors, the best parents, the best of everything. She lasted a long time, and she did have many good days in there. Her body was not strong enough to fight her disease, to hang in there for the bone marrow transplant to take effect. That's not because of any deity. That's just how it was. Like us, they can only do so much.


Anyway, that's my two cents' worth. I'm sure I've managed to offend anyone who actually read through all that.

[Birdy]

Wow, great post, you articulated everything I was thinking about this better than I ever could have!

The thing that bothers me is that if all evil is for people to learn a lesson, or grow somehow, or just basically to serve a purpose, isn't that the same as saying that all evil and suffering is ultimately justified/justifiable? If all evil serves a higher good intention (of deity or some such) than doesn't that mean that nothing is actually evil and that there is really no such thing as evil? I don't believe this. Evil is evil. A lot of people talked about how hardships can help us grow and I agree with that but it's not really the Problem of Hardship or the Problem of Life Being Hard. It's the Problem of EVIL, as in husbands throwing sulphuric acid in their 14 year old wives faces for supposed adultery and never being punished, or women under the Taliban having their fingers cut off on their wedding day for being caught with a manicure, or African child soldiers, or natural evil like degenerative diseases and on and on and ever on...

I hope I havent offended anyone (although I probably have) these are questions I have, not assumptions.

...also, while hardship and trauma can enlighten a person and make them stronger, it can also just seriously mess them up. Why fight suffering and injustice in the world if it's good for us?

[Crysiira]

This is really a hard thing to argue. We talked about this in my philosophy class last semester, but we were doing it from the Christian God standpoint. My answer was pretty simple - the problem of evil is solved because I don't believe in the Christian God. I've never had to argue it from my Pagan standpoint.
Still, I understand what's being said. Some "evil" is absolutely senseless and seems to serve no purpose whatsoever. I totally agree with this. It's probably just a comfort thing that I try to tell myself it's all for some higher purpose, to teach us life lessons we can then use somehow in the afterlife, blah blah blah. I'm not really sure why there's evil in the world. I'm not going to know until I'm not in this world. The best thing I can do now is just to accept that things are totally out of my control, but still try to handle things in the best way I know how. If telling myself that it's all for a higher purpose helps me handle things better, is that so bad?

[LadyWinter]

_handclapp _travolta_ Well put and totally agreed with Cat!